Hardware Discussion Thread

Brian · 23-10-2012 04:55PM

marco_polo wrote: »

Yep both this and Steamroller next year will be AM3+ chips.

Really! Well then my motherboard might have some life in it yet. It's a GA-870A-USB3. Think it is AM3+ compatible.

farna_boy · 23-10-2012 06:31PM

Just wondering what ye think of the gaming benchmark reviews of the FX-8350?

For most / all single threaded applications (which unfortunately includes some games), there is a clear problem with using one of these CPUs. So this will be a clear problem for some of the older games. (I note that this CPU and Skyrim don't really get along).

But for some of the newer games, as long as there is a decent graphics card and you look at the higher resolution tests, the FX-8350 seems comparable to the 3570K (HardwareCanucks, HardwareHeaven, Hexus and Overclockersclub). The thing is that most of these games seem reliant on GPU rather than CPU. So conceivably, if upcoming games are not optimised to use all available cores/threads, the FX8350 may not fair well compared to the 3570K.

I was thinking of upgrading to a 3570K, but reading these reviews I am unsure all of a sudden again. If I want x16/x16 for my crossfire setup using Intel, I will have to pay at least €240 (ASRock Z77 WS) but if I am using an AMD board the most I will have to pay (looking at hardwareversand) is €210 for an Asus Crosshair V Formula-Z but I only have to pay €145 for an ASUS SABERTOOTH 990FX. There is the argument that you are not comparing like with like i.e. PCI-E 3.0 vs PCI-E 2.0, but as far as I can tell no graphics cards/games are making use of PCI-E 3.0 to its full extent yet.

I suppose this isn't a bad place to be in at the same time. I might wait and see if Intel react to this before purchasing, but at the moment I am leaning towards an AMD gaming rig.

P.S. I am surprised by the review that the FX got on xbit labs. Looking at the review from a purely gaming perspective, it gives the impression that the FX can not compete with the i5s in any level because they only tested using the 1680x1050 resolutions where the CPU seems to be at it's weakest. I know its a truer test of the CPU, in effect removing the GPU from the test, but considering no one will ever play at these resolutions, I would at least expect there to be some benchmarks showing that these CPUs are comparable to the i3570K at real world resolutions.

Serephucus · 23-10-2012 06:34PM

You don't need x16/x16 bandwidth. x8 PCIe 3.0 is far more than enough.

Monotype · 23-10-2012 06:42PM

The thing is that per core performance is lower for AMD so no matter how many cores you have, most games just aren't written to utilise them when you go above around 3. An extra core is probably handy for real world situations to handle all your desktop stuff even if that doesn't show up in benchmarks.

Cards at the moment aren't fast enough to be limited by x8, so I wouldn't be overly worried about x16/x16 unless you are planning not to upgrade for a long time. The board could be obsolete then anyway.

If you really want to compare like with like, you should be comparing x8/x8 PCI-E 3 motherboards with x16/x16 PCI-E 2. But, even x8/x8 PCI-E 2 is not limiting with top end.

farna_boy · 23-10-2012 06:47PM

Serephucus wrote: »

You don't need x16/x16 bandwidth. x8 PCIe 3.0 is far more than enough.

You are of course correct. I don't need it now. I think I read somewhere that there is only a 2% drop in framerates between x16/x16 and x8/x8. The thing is that I rarely do big upgrades i.e. Mobo, CPU and RAM, so when I do, I like to ensure max compatibility for future upgrades (I don't want to use those two words, but I'm sure you know what I am talking about

).

This is another reason why I am unsure if the FX is the right CPU for me. No matter what I do decide to buy now, I am fairly sure that by the time I upgrade again, the CPU socket will have changed and we will all probably be using at least DDR4 as well, so I am not really concerned about those specifications in a way. However, I will upgrade other parts incrementally i.e. graphics cards, hard drives, whatever else, so I want to be as close to the top of the market as possible for everything else if possible. Examples would be ensuring I have a lot of SATA 3 ports and USB 3.0 ports as well. So from this perspective, I think having PCI-E 3.0 x16/x16 should at least be part of the discussion/considerations but of course it is unclear if I will ever use/need them.

farna_boy · 23-10-2012 07:06PM

Monotype wrote: »

The thing is that per core performance is lower for AMD so no matter how many cores you have, most games just aren't written to utilise them when you go above around 3. An extra core is probably handy for real world situations to handle all your desktop stuff even if that doesn't show up in benchmarks.

Cards at the moment aren't fast enough to be limited by x8, so I wouldn't be overly worried about x16/x16 unless you are planning not to upgrade for a long time. The board could be obsolete then anyway.

These two points are my main concerns for the next upgrade I will do. I think the PCI-E 3.0 x16/x16 is probably the best way to go and will ensure max compatibility for the longest time.

The first point though is where my problem lies. I am not really sure how future games will be written (maybe other people are and could let me know). I would imagine (/hope) that new games will be written to maximise the use of all the cores/threads that are available. So I should choose the best CPU that is on the market right now. The problem now is that I am not really sure which one is the best. If current trends continue, then there will be some games that only really use single cores/threads, and therefore, at least in the short term, the 3570K is the obvious choice. But if you look at multi threaded applications in these reviews, the FX seems to fair much better (i.e. in the HardwareCanucks x264HD Benchmark). So if games do become more like these applications maybe the FX could be the way to go. However, I think it really is impossible to tell and the 3570K is probably the safer bet.

PS Maybe I should at least wait to see what effect if any Windows 8 will have on the benchmarks before I buy?

Monotype · 23-10-2012 07:09PM

AMD wins for most SATA 6Gbps ports anyway. But on the other hand, you get TRIM+RAID if you wanted it with two drives with Intel.

Intel would be end of the line with the CPUs. AMD will have Steamroller. I would doubt that it would pwn anything that Intel has out now, but I would say that it should be able to match it (and Intel will have its own new socket better again).

When we see the new consoles, we'll have a better idea how future games are to be written.

ED E · 23-10-2012 09:07PM

TTL says that this probably marks the end of AMDs serious interest in the enthusiast market, suggesting they'll move more and more into the APU game for small low cost stuff like HTPCs. This makes a lot of sense to me as they just cant compete with intel for high end stuff.

Eboggles · 23-10-2012 09:52PM

ED E wrote: »

TTL says that this probably marks the end of AMDs serious interest in the enthusiast market, suggesting they'll move more and more into the APU game for small low cost stuff like HTPCs. This makes a lot of sense to me as they just cant compete with intel for high end stuff.

He seemed a bit critical in that review, IMHO.

Many other reviewers have given it semi-positive reviews, Dave over at TPU gave it a 9.0. Anand also seemed somewhat pleased by the new chips also; he felt that they were a definite improvement over BD.

I'm actually going to go with an AMD build when I upgrade (I've got a 2500k, so not for a while) just to support them. If AMD do back out of the enthusiast market Intel will just (as TTL put it) "back door" us because they have no competition. Besides, at 2560x1440 the CPU will almost never be the bottleneck, so even if I'm not getting the strongest processor around it doesn't actually matter.

marco_polo · 23-10-2012 10:14PM

Probably kick myself when I see the answer but can't think who TTL are?

farna_boy · 23-10-2012 10:48PM

marco_polo wrote: »

Probably kick myself when I see the answer but can't think who TTL are?

I wasn't sure myself, but from what I can tell it's Tom Logan, who does reviews for Overclock3D.net.

His results do seem a little strange especially for someone who claims to be an AMD fan. Most other reviews have found the FX to be comparable to the 3570K in multithreaded applications, even beating it sometimes but there is no mention of that.

Saying that though, the review isn't as bad as anandtech's results.

N64 · 23-10-2012 10:54PM

Dabs accepted my RMA (took them about 3 working days to process the RMA

) and I should have the money back in my account soon enough.

I arranged the RMA on the phone and the CS rep stated that the engineers will test the card just to make sure it actually is faulty. So I presume the way I did get a refund means that the card was faulty?

I really want to go with AMD again since the 12.11 drivers look excellent and the 7870 is cheap but then again, I have a really bad experience with the AMD platform in general.

My budget is just about €240 and I'm looking for speedy delivery since I have a week off starting on Friday. Any recommendations? :pac:

ED E · 23-10-2012 10:57PM

Yeah, Tiny Tom Logan is what he signs on/off with, and the channel is Time To Live customs.

I think he was realistic, they arent bad per say, they just arent enough of an improvement, AMD are showing no progression.

Linus was quite positive, but thats his cheerful canadian attitude, he's never hard on anything.

In a way its ironic the naming convention when intel are steamrolling amd on their way to a monopoly....

*gets coat*

Eboggles · 23-10-2012 11:00PM

N64 wrote: »

Dabs accepted my RMA (took them about 3 working days to process the RMA ) and I should have the money back in my account soon enough.

I arranged the RMA on the phone and the CS rep stated that the engineers will test the card just to make sure it actually is faulty. So I presume the way I did get a refund means that the card was faulty?

I really want to go with AMD again since the 12.11 drivers look excellent and the 7870 is cheap but then again, I have a really bad experience with the AMD platform in general.

My budget is just about €240 and I'm looking for speedy delivery since I have a week off starting on Friday. Any recommendations? :pac:

Get a HD7870 if you think it will work with your basically cursed system. Otherwise, just grab a GTX 660 and be done with it.

N64 · 23-10-2012 11:35PM

Eboggles wrote: »

Get a HD7870 if you think it will work with your basically cursed system. Otherwise, just grab a GTX 660 and be done with it.

Cursed is definitely the right word to use

. I have watched god knows how many youtube videos on building PC's and read guides on various sites and I just can't see what I am doing wrong!

I *might* be able to stretch my budget out to the 660ti w/ borderlands two bundle on amazon. Pray to whoever that it actually works out this time :pac:

freeze4real · 27-10-2012 01:48PM

Hi all, so I got win 8 yesterday or my bro did and he had to boot from my iPhone since he downloaded it to it, but after installing it all his files are gone.

Since I don't want that method of installing win8 whats the best way of doing so ?

PseudoFamous · 27-10-2012 05:44PM

click "upgrade" rather than "fresh install", make sure to not format the drive, etc.

Monotype · 27-10-2012 06:27PM

I see an FM2 ITX board on scan for preorder, due on the 31st.
http://www.scan.co.uk/products/msi-fm2-a75ia-e53-amd-a75-fm2-ddr3-sata-iii-6gb-s-sata-raid-d-sub-hdmi-mini-itx

freeze4real · 27-10-2012 07:54PM

PseudoFamous wrote: »

click "upgrade" rather than "fresh install", make sure to not format the drive, etc.

Will I still have access to my files and stuff as I do now ? And will they still work properly

PseudoFamous · 27-10-2012 09:51PM

freeze4real wrote: »

Will I still have access to my files and stuff as I do now ? And will they still work properly

yes, if you use the "upgrade" option rather than clean install.

Tea_Bag · 29-10-2012 01:26PM

logitech finally releases a mechanical keyboard:

strangely they decided to go with MX browns. looks good anyway.

PseudoFamous · 29-10-2012 02:21PM

Here, lads, looking to go up to windows 8 now, and I'm planning on wiping the SSD for this install and doing it fresh.

Any advice on how to do this?

Monotype · 29-10-2012 02:22PM

Just put in the install disc, boot and wipe* all the partitions by selecting a custom install.
No need for full formats or anything like that.

*By wipe, I mean delete the partitions. Oh yeah, disconnect your other drives too - and enable AHCI if you haven't done it before.

PseudoFamous · 29-10-2012 02:29PM

Monotype wrote: »

Just put in the install disc, boot and wipe* all the partitions by selecting a custom install.
No need for full formats or anything like that.

*By wipe, I mean delete the partitions. Oh yeah, disconnect your other drives too - and enable AHCI if you haven't done it before.

I was originally planning on zero writing it since I've started seeing a marked decrease in performance (OCZ Agility 3 - miracle its lasted so long), would there be a point in doing this, or is it just unnecessary effort?

N64 · 29-10-2012 03:32PM

Apparently there is a manufacturing defect with sapphire branded 7870's

http://translate.google.com/translate?depth=1&hl=en&ie=UTF8&prev=_t&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=fr&tl=en&u=http://www.hardware.fr/news/12705/radeon-hd-7870-ecrans-noirs-solution.html

EIDT: this does not seem to be limited to sapphire cards and happens with a couple OF AMD partners. Some other articles about the issue state that they knew of the problem before they shipped it as well

Monotype · 29-10-2012 03:55PM

The agility 3 decreases in performance the fuller it gets - perhaps this is the cause of the slowdown? Have you got TRIM enabled?

I'd just go for the straight install, after deleting the partitions or a quick format. TRIM should be taking care of what zero writing would do for you and it seems to me that it would cause unnecessary wear.

PseudoFamous · 29-10-2012 04:13PM

Monotype wrote: »

The agility 3 decreases in performance the fuller it gets - perhaps this is the cause of the slowdown? Have you got TRIM enabled?

I'd just go for the straight install, after deleting the partitions or a quick format. TRIM should be taking care of what zero writing would do for you and it seems to me that it would cause unnecessary wear.

Yeah, TRIM is on. Currently about 16/60GB free at the minute (Pagefile and hibernation off), so I'm not quite sure if that's considered relatively full. I'll go with the quick format when I get home then, thanks.

thewheel2.0 · 29-10-2012 04:56PM

N64 wrote: »

Apparently there is a manufacturing defect with sapphire branded 7870's

Oh god no! I'm so happy with my 7870 OC which is the exact card the article talks about. I remember the second or third game I played the screen went and I had the no signal message from my monitor and I had to do a hard reboot but I've had no issues since. I have no idea what to do now.

NTMK · 29-10-2012 05:17PM

Tea_Bag wrote: »

logitech finally releases a mechanical keyboard:

strangely they decided to go with MX browns. looks good anyway.

browns are a safe enough choice for their first go nicer than reds/blacks for typists and nicer than blues for gamers

Looks like the G110 which is a plus

€150 on their website though you'd probably be better off getting a filco/cm quickfire for that money (less money in the case of the quickfire) or even a razer mech (if they fixed the problems with them)

Serephucus · 29-10-2012 05:21PM

I think I'll be getting one. I love my QPad, but I really miss media keys...

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