Formula 1 2012: Round 17 - Indian Grand Prix

Ghost Train · 28-10-2012 11:53am

looks like hamilton should get third

problem for vettel?

28-10-2012 11:58am

Problems for Vettel ?

Grim. · 28-10-2012 12:02pm

looked more like something trapped under the car to me, seems to have stopped now.

28-10-2012 12:03pm

Hammo should get past Webber if he can get close, picking up well over half a second in the DRS area.

28-10-2012 12:05pm

Well that was disappointing.

cherryghost · 28-10-2012 12:05pm

Just when you think a race couldn't get more boring...

Ghost Train · 28-10-2012 12:06pm

Good that Alonso at least got second, keeps him in touch with Vettel

Poor race really

Cool_CM · 28-10-2012 12:13pm

Martin Brundle on an F1 for the first time since 1995.

ratedR · 28-10-2012 12:25pm

Jesus, another woeful race. I've been watching F1 for 17 years but have only really been seriously following it the past 6 years and have honestly really started loosing all interest in it lately with this red bull domination crap. It's terrible for the sport. EVERY race Vettel wins is a snoozefest, I don't care how many records he breaks, he'll never be a worthy champion in my eyes.

Rascasse · 28-10-2012 12:25pm

Another dominant win for RB. Vettel to be crowned champion in Austin I reckon.

Bullseye1 · 28-10-2012 12:27pm

Alonso never fails to amaze. 35 seconds ahead of his team mate says it all really. For me he is the best driver on the track.

Max_Charger · 28-10-2012 12:29pm

ratedR wrote: »

I don't care how many records he breaks, he'll never be a worthy champion in my eyes.

Why?

Rascasse · 28-10-2012 12:31pm

Interesting that Schumacher parked the car. The benefit is he gets a free gearbox change, but the drawback is if he gets penalised for ignoring the blue flags the penalty will be applied in Abu Dhabi, not this race.

Andrew76 · 28-10-2012 12:38pm

ratedR wrote: »

Jesus, another woeful race. I've been watching F1 for 17 years but have only really been seriously following it the past 6 years and have honestly really started loosing all interest in it lately with this red bull domination crap. It's terrible for the sport. EVERY race Vettel wins is a snoozefest, I don't care how many records he breaks, he'll never be a worthy champion in my eyes.

What a load of utter sh1te. You obviously weren't watching when Ferrari dominated, or Williams, or McLaren. Blame the other teams for not doing as good a job, simple as. Vettel is every bit a worthy champion.

Bullseye1 wrote: »

Alonso never fails to amaze. 35 seconds ahead of his team mate says it all really. For me he is the best driver on the track.

Aye, another immense performance from him. Really would be awesome to see him and Vettel in the same team.

ratedR · 28-10-2012 1:01pm

I was indeed watching through the Ferrari years, but as I explained I wasn't AS interested. These days I watch practice sessions etc and have been to a few races in the past few years. How is my opinion utter ****e? You see Fernando Alonso battling as hard as he can, never gives up and manages to finish second in a car that's not the quickest. Now there's a worthy champion. Vettels forte is qualyfying first and getting decent starts, and putting in a few decent early laps. Made much easier by the fact he's driving the quickest car. He's a good driver, but not the best. He'll be a 3 time world champion soon mainly down to the fact that Adrian Newey designs his car.

Max_Charger · 28-10-2012 1:15pm

ratedR wrote: »

I was indeed watching through the Ferrari years, but as I explained I wasn't AS interested. These days I watch practice sessions etc and have been to a few races in the past few years. How is my opinion utter ****e? You see Fernando Alonso battling as hard as he can, never gives up and manages to finish second in a car that's not the quickest. Now there's a worthy champion. Vettels forte is qualyfying first and getting decent starts, and putting in a few decent early laps. Made much easier by the fact he's driving the quickest car. He's a good driver, but not the best. He'll be a 3 time world champion soon mainly down to the fact that Adrian Newey designs his car.

It's not a coincidence that the best drivers get the best cars. I'm not Vettels no.1 fan either but I can appreciate he is an incredibly talented driver and a completely deserving world champion. A "forte" for qualifying, with decent race starts and putting in a "few" decent early laps,not a worthy champion?! Are you taking the piss?!

Bullseye1 · 28-10-2012 1:21pm

How do you think Vettle would do in the current Ferrari setup? He is an excellent time trial driver. We really haven't seen him do well when his car was not the best in the begining of the year.

bbsrs · 28-10-2012 1:30pm

Indian grand prix threw up no surprises then. Alonso and Räikkönen are the two best drivers on the grid . The reason Vettel will be world champion is Adrian Newey .

ratedR · 28-10-2012 1:46pm

Max_Charger wrote: »

It's not a coincidence that the best drivers get the best cars. I'm not Vettels no.1 fan either but I can appreciate he is an incredibly talented driver and a completely deserving world champion. A "forte" for qualifying, with decent race starts and putting in a "few" decent early laps,not a worthy champion?! Are you taking the piss?!

Nope. What points do you feel I'm taking the piss? His particular set of skills in the best car mean he can put it in pole on a Saturday and pull away into the lead on a Sunday. His work is done at 1:05pm. There's not much racing involved, it's just pumping in fast laps when he needs to. I'm not suggesting he has no talent, but it's boring and killing the sport.

As for the best drivers ending up in the best cars, not always. Jenson Button lucked into that Brawn and a world championship in 09. And Mika Hakkinen in 98 and 99, another Newey car that Taki Inoue probably could have won the title in.

Myrddin · 28-10-2012 1:55pm

The worst race of the season so far, by a country mile. As usual now the race winner was decided a day before the race, & if it wern't for the battle between Alonso hunting down Webber, it had the probability of being the worst race I've seen in two seasons.

Just to echo previous posts, Vettel is every bit the champion he is. The chap is supreme from Fridays to Sundays, & although its soul destroying watching the sport be so predictable, it would be immensly immature not to credit Vettel with the praise he deserves. Personally I don't like him, but its fair to say he's one of the top three drivers on the grid.

Alonso stole the show though, dispatching the two McLarens & a Red Bull in the Ferrari is nothing but a demonstration of world class driving. For me, he is the best driver on the grid, bar none. Utter class, & I'd shudder to be an F1 fan if Alonso were in a Red Bull..it'd be unwatchable

Honorable mentions to Senna & Hulkenberg today too, great showing by them I thought!

Myrddin · 28-10-2012 1:55pm

ratedR wrote: »

His work is done at 1:05pm.

Some might say thats a measure of how good he is

ratedR · 28-10-2012 2:08pm

EnterNow wrote: »

Some might say thats a measure of how good he is

Perhaps.

The funny thing is I actually like Vettel. Comes across as a really nice guy in interviews. It's just as you said, it is soul destroying watching the sport become so predictable. Domination in any sport is terrible. Look at the WRC for instance.

But the way that Red Bull dominate is so so boring. Maybe I'm wrong about Vettel, but I can't help but feel he's just a good driver in the right team at the right time, rather then an out and out legend. Time will tell I suppose.

Myrddin · 28-10-2012 2:38pm

ratedR wrote: »

Maybe I'm wrong about Vettel, but I can't help but feel he's just a good driver in the right team at the right time, rather then an out and out legend. Time will tell I suppose.

But Webber is a good driver, in a good team, & at the right time. Vettel trounces him, & I'd rate Webber quite highly he's hugely experienced & rarely makes mistakes.

GarIT · 28-10-2012 2:49pm

I don't think Vettel is as good as people say, look back to the start of the season, all season Red Bull have had a better car then Ferrari, Ferrari's car at the start was terrible but Alonso was beating Vettel in a worse car, now Vettel's car is much better than Alonso's and Alonso isn't far behind.

Has anyone listened to the changes in Vettel throught the season at the start of the season was "The Team is having trouble" "The car isn't competetive" "We had x, y or z problem with the car" now its "I'm winning" "I'm the fastest on the track" "I put in a quick lap to take pole".

When Vettel looses its the team, when he wins its him :rolleyes:

donspeekinglesh · 28-10-2012 3:11pm

GarIT wrote: »

When Vettel looses its the team, when he wins its him :rolleyes:

Like almost every racing driver that's ever sat in a car.

vectra · 28-10-2012 3:48pm

donspeekinglesh wrote: »

Like almost every racing driver that's ever sat in a car.

Glad you said Almost

Kimi Raikkonen admitted he only has himself to blame for the set-up change that cost him the chance of a decent grid slot for the Indian Grand Prix.

Ghost Train · 28-10-2012 4:40pm

Sure first thing Vettel did after winning was thank everybody in the team, "no matter who they are" over the radio

Jordan 199 · 28-10-2012 6:04pm

EnterNow wrote: »

The worst race of the season so far, by a country mile.

LIGHTNING wrote: »

That was a truly awful race, as bad as it gets.

Abu Dhabi next *shudders*.

Jumps into bed and pulls quilt over head and shudders more.

Charlie-Bravo · 28-10-2012 6:39pm

Ghost Train wrote: »

Sure first thing Vettel did after winning was thank everybody in the team, "no matter who they are" over the radio

- not everybody, just the 'boys'...

bbsrs · 28-10-2012 6:45pm

astrofluff wrote: »

- not everybody, just the 'boys'...

At least he stopped sulking unlike at the start of the season .

28-10-2012 7:08pm

EnterNow wrote: »

But Webber is a good driver, in a good team, & at the right time. Vettel trounces him, & I'd rate Webber quite highly he's hugely experienced & rarely makes mistakes.

Sorry but I have to really question how good Webber is. There's been times when Vettel has had a second a lap in hand on Webber. In an awful lot of races Vettel looks like he's got 1-2 seconds in hand on what he's running and only does it when he needs to, something Webber hasn't got. The gap between the two of them this and last season is probably bigger than any other team (bar Ferrari) and that can't all be down to Vettel being quite so amazing.

Myrddin · 28-10-2012 8:30pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Sorry but I have to really question how good Webber is. There's been times when Vettel has had a second a lap in hand on Webber. In an awful lot of races Vettel looks like he's got 1-2 seconds in hand on what he's running and only does it when he needs to, something Webber hasn't got. The gap between the two of them this and last season is probably bigger than any other team (bar Ferrari) and that can't all be down to Vettel being quite so amazing.

I'm not saying Webber is as good as Vettel, I'm using Webber to measure how good Vettel is. Webber is a solid driver, and unfortunately, he's a number 2 driver...but even as a number 2, he's still able to battle it out with the best of them.

I like Webber, he's an honest to good drive & knows his stuff. Unfortunately, it reflects poorly on him, as it would with MANY other drivers, being paired with Vettel in a Red Bull

Ghost Train · 28-10-2012 8:57pm

Wonder what this was about, probably just bored with silly questions http://www.dnaindia.com/sport/report_mark-webber-walks-out-of-press-conference_1757217

I like webber but don't think he has the pace of other top drivers, has picked up wins and brings the car home but can't ever see him taking a championship

SilverScreen · 28-10-2012 10:10pm

This was the first race this year that I actually didn't bother watching. Judging by the news reports and comments posted here I didn't miss much. What started off as the most unpredictable season I could remember has turned into a predictable snorefest. I'm not doubting Vettel's ability in any way, but I'd just rather see him pushed right to the wire in a nail-biting season climax.

delad · 28-10-2012 11:42pm

GarIT wrote: »

I don't think Vettel is as good as people say, look back to the start of the season, all season Red Bull have had a better car then Ferrari, Ferrari's car at the start was terrible but Alonso was beating Vettel in a worse car, now Vettel's car is much better than Alonso's and Alonso isn't far behind.

Complete rubbish, ferrari have had the best car for most of this season. Alonso's car has also been more reliable than vettels car this season. Alonso has only looked like he is over achieving because massa is the slowest driver in f1, so compared to him alonso looks great. In fairness, I could drive a second a lap faster than massa. If ferrari had a half decent number 2 driver they would be neck and neck with red bull in the standings.

Fact of the matter is old fat cheeks can't hack it that vettel is the fastest driver in f1, so he is trying to make it about the car. Funny though how I don't remember alonso saying how it was all about the car when he won races. He is a very bitter man, I really hope vettel joins ferrari to put alonso back in his box and shut him up for good.

bbsrs · 29-10-2012 12:22am

delad wrote: »

Complete rubbish ferrari have had the best car for most of this season. .

I agree with that bit.

Max_Charger · 29-10-2012 12:37am

delad wrote: »

Complete rubbish, ferrari have had the best car for most of this season.

I agree 100% with that. This "what he's done with a rubbish car is amazing" stuff is complete horse crap.

29-10-2012 3:19am

EnterNow wrote: »

I'm not saying Webber is as good as Vettel, I'm using Webber to measure how good Vettel is. Webber is a solid driver, and unfortunately, he's a number 2 driver...but even as a number 2, he's still able to battle it out with the best of them.

I like Webber, he's an honest to good drive & knows his stuff. Unfortunately, it reflects poorly on him, as it would with MANY other drivers, being paired with Vettel in a Red Bull

He's obviously not as good as Vettel but if there was a difference between him and Vettel and it was 30 years ago and him a pay driver there'd be protests in. Vettel has so much in hand at just about all times. If Webber is a top class driver that means that Vettel is nearly a second quicker than everyone else, that just doesn't happen.

Myrddin · 29-10-2012 10:01am

delad wrote: »

Complete rubbish: ferrari have had the best car for most of this season. Alonso's car has also been more reliable than vettels car this season. Alonso has only looked like he is over achieving because massa is the slowest driver in f1, so compared to him alonso looks great. In fairness, I could drive a second a lap faster than massa. If ferrari had a half decent number 2 driver they would be neck and neck with red bull in the standings.

Fact of the matter is old fat cheeks can't hack it that vettel is the fastest driver in f1, so he is trying to make it about the car. Funny though how I don't remember alonso saying how it was all about the car when he won races. He is a very bitter man, I really hope vettel joins ferrari to put alonso back in his box and shut him up for good.

I agree, complete rubbish indeed

Myrddin · 29-10-2012 10:03am

Deleted User wrote: »

He's obviously not as good as Vettel but if there was a difference between him and Vettel and it was 30 years ago and him a pay driver there'd be protests in. Vettel has so much in hand at just about all times. If Webber is a top class driver that means that Vettel is nearly a second quicker than everyone else, that just doesn't happen.

I don't think I'd call Webber a top class driver, I said he's a good driver, & the fact Vettel dominates him so completely only serves to prove its more than just Vettel in a fast car, Vettel is above a good driver, he is a world class driver

frostie500 · 29-10-2012 2:33pm

The hierarchy of the F1 drivers is pretty clear to be honest.

There is the elite "tier one" drivers (Alonso, Hamilton and Vettel)
"Tier two" has the likes of Button, Raikkonen (just because he hasnt refound his old single lap quali speed yet), Rosberg, Webber
Then the young drivers such as Perez, Hulkenberg, Maldonado, Grosjean etc. who have shown a lot of potential but still need to smooth out some rough edges
and the rest of the field

I dont get it how so many fans cant, or more likely wont, see that there is very little to seperate the likes of Alonso, Hamilton and Vettel. And as far as Im concerned if you put any of those into the red bull for the last three years they would have won a couple of titles. No doubt in my mind about that. When you have elite drivers in a great car they will win races.

Its when they're in a poor car that we see their true ability shine. Look at Vettel at Monza in 08, Hamilton in 09 and Alonso in the renault in 08 and this years Ferrari.

The car has improved throughout the year but it is far from the best car on the grid. It has lacked one lap speed for most of the year (bar a couple of mid-season races) and Alonso has pulled out great performances to be in position to win the title.

Drivers can only race with the car they have. Vettel has done an amazing job the last four races but it shouldnt undermine the performances of Alonso throughout the year. He built up his championship lead by having a fast and reliable car with which he made very few mistakes and capitalised on Seb's and lewis' retirements but it shouldnt be taken for granted that cos he led the championship he had the best car.

StephenHendry · 30-10-2012 9:55am

frostie500 wrote: »

The hierarchy of the F1 drivers is pretty clear to be honest.
There is the elite "tier one" drivers (Alonso, Hamilton and Vettel)

"Tier two" has the likes of Button, Raikkonen (just because he hasnt refound his old single lap quali speed yet), Rosberg, Webber

Then the young drivers such as Perez, Hulkenberg, Maldonado, Grosjean etc. who have shown a lot of potential but still need to smooth out some rough edges

and the rest of the field

I dont get it how so many fans cant, or more likely wont, see that there is very little to seperate the likes of Alonso, Hamilton and Vettel. And as far as Im concerned if you put any of those into the red bull for the last three years they would have won a couple of titles. No doubt in my mind about that. When you have elite drivers in a great car they will win races.

Its when they're in a poor car that we see their true ability shine. Look at Vettel at Monza in 08, Hamilton in 09 and Alonso in the renault in 08 and this years Ferrari.

The car has improved throughout the year but it is far from the best car on the grid. It has lacked one lap speed for most of the year (bar a couple of mid-season races) and Alonso has pulled out great performances to be in position to win the title.

Drivers can only race with the car they have. Vettel has done an amazing job the last four races but it shouldnt undermine the performances of Alonso throughout the year. He built up his championship lead by having a fast and reliable car with which he made very few mistakes and capitalised on Seb's and lewis' retirements but it shouldnt be taken for granted that cos he led the championship he had the best car.

Fernando has done great to keep himself in with a chance especially getting that second place on sunday, i think redbull have made too many step forwards for ferrari to catch them and SV is too good a drive to let it slip barring some failures. imo FA deserves the title this year and he is shown to be best best driver, more consistent than hamilton

30-10-2012 10:03am

frostie500 wrote: »

The hierarchy of the F1 drivers is pretty clear to be honest.
There is the elite "tier one" drivers (Alonso, Hamilton and Vettel)

"Tier two" has the likes of Button, Raikkonen (just because he hasnt refound his old single lap quali speed yet), Rosberg, Webber

Then the young drivers such as Perez, Hulkenberg, Maldonado, Grosjean etc. who have shown a lot of potential but still need to smooth out some rough edges

and the rest of the field

Based on the last 3 years Button isn't too far off the top group I would've said. Hopefully Raikkonen has a few years to show what he can do again. Webber is so far off Vettel for the last 2 years it's not even funny and a lot of the time it looks like he's doing it at ease.

Bullseye1 · 30-10-2012 10:13am

Ferrari hasn't been anywhere near the best car this year. It has been the most reliable.

McClaren at the beginning and Red Bull now have shown the most pace but due to reliability neither have been able pull out an advantage, that is until now where it seems RB have returned to their dominance of the previous two years.

There is no denying Vettle is an elite driver and he may very well to on to beat Schu's records. For me he has to do it with two different manufacturers. I can see him going to Ferarri in a few years when Alonso is done. It will be interesting to see if Webber will be there for much longer. He has been invaluable to Vettle the last number of races and would have finished second but for his car problems.

vectra · 30-10-2012 10:44am

frostie500 wrote: »

I dont get it how so many fans cant, or more likely wont, see that there is very little to seperate the likes of Alonso, Hamilton and Vettel. And as far as Im concerned if you put any of those into the red bull for the last three years they would have won a couple of titles. No doubt in my mind about that. When you have elite drivers in a great car they will win races.

In my view if Kimi had been in that red bull he would have won as well. That should make him top tier.

frostie500 wrote: »

Its when they're in a poor car that we see their true ability shine. Look at Vettel at Monza in 08, Hamilton in 09 and Alonso in the renault in 08 and this years Ferrari.

Again I think Kimi should be in this list as he was driving a wheelbarrow in 2009 (f60)

That red bull is just a flying machine.

Myrddin · 30-10-2012 11:16am

vectra wrote: »

In my view if Kimi had been in that red bull he would have won as well. That should make him top tier.

Again I think Kimi should be in this list as he was driving a wheelbarrow in 2009 (f60)

That red bull is just a flying machine.

Agreed, I think Kimi has that 'something special', he's able to outdrive a car like the other top tier drivers, & if he gets a sniff of a win, he'll go balls out for it. I'd put him in the top five easily

frostie500 · 30-10-2012 7:23pm

vectra wrote: »

In my view if Kimi had been in that red bull he would have won as well. That should make him top tier.

Again I think Kimi should be in this list as he was driving a wheelbarrow in 2009 (f60)

That red bull is just a flying machine.

No doubt if Kimi was racing then he would have been still considered a top tier driver. Like I said in my post though until he can get the last couple of tenths back in qualifying I'd class him as being a little behind the Alonso, Vettel and Hamilton trio. I'd say next year he'll have that qualifying pace again and will be in my top tier because his race craft has been superb this year so far.

30-10-2012 8:34pm

frostie500 wrote: »

No doubt if Kimi was racing then he would have been still considered a top tier driver. Like I said in my post though until he can get the last couple of tenths back in qualifying I'd class him as being a little behind the Alonso, Vettel and Hamilton trio. I'd say next year he'll have that qualifying pace again and will be in my top tier because his race craft has been superb this year so far.

I get the impression the Lotus doesn't have much performance waiting to come out. Looking at both Kimi and Grosjean there isn't the kind of one or two lap performance improvement that other teams have.
As for his racecraft he's shown his class a few times and but for many poor strategy calls from the team he'd easily have another 30 points.

StephenHendry · 31-10-2012 12:53pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Based on the last 3 years Button isn't too far off the top group I would've said. Hopefully Raikkonen has a few years to show what he can do again. Webber is so far off Vettel for the last 2 years it's not even funny and a lot of the time it looks like he's doing it at ease.

yep, JB outperformed lewis in 11, i think jenson struggles more in quali alot more which affects his race results which could be very important next year assuming it takes perez plenty of time to settle in. Like you say,jenson is just below the top three of SV, LH and FA

31-10-2012 7:29pm

StephenHendry wrote: »

yep, JB outperformed lewis in 11, i think jenson struggles more in quali alot more which affects his race results which could be very important next year assuming it takes perez plenty of time to settle in. Like you say,jenson is just below the top three of SV, LH and FA

In 55 races total Hamilton has 7 points more than Button. So far Button has retired 7 times that were either mechanical or he was crashed into, for Hamilton I think it was 5 times the last time I counted with some debatable. Over 3 seasons Button has been very, very close to Hamilton.

Formula 1 2012: Round 17 - Indian Grand Prix

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