Inset Stove

okofen · 20-04-2012 11:56AM

such a load of blarney , again and again attacking a company that employs over 100 staff in ireland and manufacture their stoves in ireland, yes one of the raw materials i,e castings comes in from agas foundry in poland, but the stanley stoves are designed and manufactured in ireland, it is an insult for the 100+ stanley workers to think otherwise, uneducated people cause a lot of problems. stanley offer 3 year replacement on glass breakage. (fact). no other company will replace glass on their stoves. obviously soot soupy hasnt a prestiges enough showroom to qualify as a authorised stanley dealer and is a bit upset at this, and when giving advice to irish board memebers please deal with the irish regulations and please stop referring to wales/scotland/england/northern ireland regulations. you should mabey educate yourself a bit more.
regards
okofen

sooty_soupy wrote: »

Sorry for being away for a while...too much on..but not a bad complaint.

where to start...75Dilbert...yeah I know...I've been called a lot of things too. LOL

I keep coming back to the same thing. If you are buying a stove...ANY STOVE, you will be told the flue outlet diameter...and that is for a very good reason. This will be the diameter of flue used DURING TESTING, to determine the output of the appliance. Now when you buy a stove, chosen for it's output, then you fit the bloody thing into a flue the wrong size, what do you think happens to the efficiency of the stove and it's ability to put heat into the room?

How can I be impartial...well that is VERY easy. I've been a chimney technician and sweep for 21 years and have WORKED with them all...not just selling boxes with products, all shiney and new inside, but after they have been used for months, and years the way they are designed...and that's when you sort the wheat from the chaff. Experience tells you all you need to know in life...I'm just sharing my knowledge.

Aarow are fine as far as I can gather, although the castings are done in China too. I know this as I had to wait 12 weeks for a door that needed replaced when an aarow stove arrived damaged, but 3 months without a door for a new stove was a bit much, so no more of them were bought...plus the air slide on the SB20 I think the model was, is bordering on useless and flimsy...go play with a stove in a showroom and put it through it's paces. If it doesn't feel solid...it isn't.

Looking at the instructions for installation linked by Dilbert75, on page 11 it does suggest that the flue needs to be kept warm (not always possible with clay liners due to the slow burn nature of stoves) and the flue should be the correct size for the appliance...and back we come to the size of the outlet. The same page also refers to using a 6" flex liner if you have a large diameter of chimney. I dare say if you asked Aarrow, they would endorse the insulated flex liner as good practice, based on there instructions suggesting so.

Clearview just come out with it...no ambiguity...it needs flue lined. Dilbert75 saw the Clearview lit, as does everyone coming into our showroom. Burning under control? very much so, but look what happens;

Low flue gas temperatures when burning slowly = condensates. The solution = Flexible steel heats up quickly and evenly, and vermiculite insulates it...Problem solved.

And then you get into steel manufacturers instructions. 316 suitable for wood and turf, not for slumber burning appliances or mulit fuel stoves burning coal...904 grade steel needs to be used. As an approved Docherty Chimney Group stockist and installer, I know that for a fact with their products, and also Schiedel say the same thing on their web site...just do the research and all the answers are there...all I am doing is bringing it all together for you.

Warranty on most stoves covers nothing but the body. All the stoves I have fitted have never covered glass, rope, tiles, grate, ash pans, baffles etc..so when you really get down to the nitty gritty, what have you got covered? If you buy a cast iron (pig iron) stove, you will find the manufacturer will provide a replacement plate. You disconnect from plumbing where necessary, and disconnect from the flue, dismantle the stove, rebuild the stove and start fitting it all back together again...(thanks Stanley) all at your own expense. If you supplied the stove, then you feel obliged to do the decent thing for your customer...Oh the joys of having a warranty on the body (parts) of the stove. If you have a manufacturer that has expanded through the recession, and has loyal followers for nearly 30 years, who claim that the stove was the best thing they have ever bought, that tells you all you need to know I think. I have heard it for over two decades on the "front line" and all I ever wanted to sell was what I sell.

I'm amazed that WhatStove suggest not lining smaller stoves. Smaller ones are usually the ones that have a smaller diameter outlets, hence can be affected by larger diameter of flues, and to compound this they produce lower flue gas temperatures so need more help on the chimney front to help keep gasses warm.

Soldsold. Very few insets have the external air system from what I can gather, so you might struggle to get one to do what you need as far as that is concerned. The Clearview inset can have a domestic boiler added of 8000 BTU, reducing the output to the room, but I am perplexed. Surely the concept of heat recovery is that once the room gets to a certain temperature, dictated by thermostats, the heat is drawn away and ducted throughout the house. If this is correct, then why should it matter heating radiators, when the domestic water should be enough. Surplus radiant heat is moved mechanically. Stoves driving radiators can be harder to fuel, as you will have a bigger "heat sink" inside the stove. When you need radiant heat to the room, but the water needs it, you will have a stove that will default to heating water first, and your room second. 316 steel will be for wood and turf only BTW. Slumber burning coal on 316 especially with a boiler can open up a whole can of worms...find out who manufactured the flue and ask them before you start to use it.

Dilbert75...the company you told me about with the Clearview is not an approved stockist. They are buying through another stockist and Clearview are none too impressed from what I can gather, so if you can do a deal with him, do it quick....but then you have a real dilema...what happens if you need to make a claim on your warranty. Does Clearview stand over it, or make you return it to base because it was not an approved supplier? Anki chimneys, and County Down Stoves and Flues have been the only official stockists of Clearview stoves in Ireland, and you can pick up a stove at any time from us, as we carry them in stock at the warehouse all the time along with all the flue systems too. 75 Clearviews arrived 3 days ago. Just a thought. ;-}

Right it's 6.10pm on Saturday and I have a bottle of Bushmills with my name on it, and a Chicken Fried Rice.

Have a good weekend guys.

yop · 20-04-2012 12:00PM

okofen wrote: »

you should "mabey" educate yourself a bit more

Oh the irony in that statement

PeteHeat · 20-04-2012 12:44PM

okofen wrote: »

such a load of blarney , again and again attacking a company that employs over 100 staff in ireland and manufacture their stoves in ireland, yes one of the raw materials i,e castings comes in from agas foundry in poland, but the stanley stoves are designed and manufactured in ireland, it is an insult for the 100+ stanley workers to think otherwise, uneducated people cause a lot of problems. stanley offer 3 year replacement on glass breakage. (fact). no other company will replace glass on their stoves. obviously soot soupy hasnt a prestiges enough showroom to qualify as a authorised stanley dealer and is a bit upset at this, and when giving advice to irish board memebers please deal with the irish regulations and please stop referring to wales/scotland/england/northern ireland regulations. you should mabey educate yourself a bit more.
regards
okofen

Fact: You don't need a fancy showroom to be a Stanley dealer, their stoves are available in a lot of hardware and diy stores where the staff haven't a clue about any stoves or how they work.

Fact: The glass warranty only applies if the glass breaks under "Normal Use" it is not unlimited to the point where it applies to someone trying to close the stove door against an oversized log.

Fact: The majority of Irish Building Regs are copy and paste of the UK Regs.

When is it wrong to engage and aim for "Best Working Practices"?

Some brands on sale in Ireland the UK and the Continent have different installation and user manuals, obviously when in Ireland they use the minimum requirements as stated in the Irish regs, does that mean it is right to cut corners because a government department is not up to date?

I don't sell Clearview or Stanley, in fact I do not sell the majority of the more expensive inset stoves because they are not designed to work in accordance with the Irish installation manuals supplied.

There are facts, there is common sense and there is good working practice based on experience and safety, give me the latter anyday.

.

KenH · 21-09-2012 06:31PM

I'm having a terrible time trying to find a stove to fit in to a 60's style small fireplace. An insert one would be preferable but any will do at this point. Has anyone any suggestions? Here's the details.

Height: 55cm
Width: 40cm tapering to 25cm at the back
Depth: 24.5cm

Hearth front: 25cm

Thanks.

heltipp · 26-09-2012 08:15PM

Hi,
One very confused person here, after reading all these posts. I am not great at all the diy stuff but I am looking for an inset stove for my house, very small room, its only around 17sq yards, just want to heat room thats it? was looking at a dimplex stove.

I am presuming from all the posts here I will definatly need a flue for it, i was told in the shop if the chimney was in good condition i wouldnt need one, i did think this was strange alright, but i also got a fright at the cost of the flue!!

any help or advice be great. preferably in basic languange :-)

lennyloulou · 30-09-2012 08:58AM

we are putting in a 7 kilowatt Boru stove inset .... paying 800e through the guy putting it in... any idea what this stove is like?

Qualitymark · 30-09-2012 09:04AM

lennyloulou wrote: »

we are putting in a 7 kilowatt Boru stove inset .... paying 800e through the guy putting it in... any idea what this stove is like?

My cousin has it, loves it, says it's boiling hot and she doesn't know herself since replacing a yawning open fire with a Boru.

By the way, @cranefly, some of the people who helpfully post here are stove installers, others like me are less expert but have stoves. My 2 cents on installation - I had a lovely little stove in my old house, an artisan cottage, and was constantly falling asleep in front of it. A friend said he felt almost unconscious, and thought it was really dangerous. This had been installed by handyman friends, who fed a short chimney-pipe into my old chimney and stuffed it around with asbestos to stop fumes coming back into the room.

Unfortunately, the fumes were able to come back through the porous brick fireplace; also, the lack of a full-length flexible flue pipe insulated with vermiculite meant that the chimney didn't get hot enough to draw the smoke properly up and away.

I now have a Clearview, which is magnificent, and was installed by professionals who put in the proper flue pipe and insulation. Nowadays, of course, all houses have smoke alarms which double as carbon monoxide alarms.

heltipp · 30-09-2012 06:46PM

was looking at dimplex inset.... anyone any ideas what they are like?

ted1 · 03-10-2012 10:12AM

stanley stoves are designed and manufactured in ireland

isn't the Oisin made in China??

Qualitymark · 03-10-2012 12:19PM

ted1 wrote: »

isn't the Oisin made in China??

Cast in China, put together in Ireland, I think - like most European-made stoves. It's part of the reason I bought a Clearview: the casting as well as the manufacture is done in England.

dfbemt · 03-10-2012 06:43PM

Qualitymark wrote: »

Unfortunately, the fumes were able to come back through the porous brick fireplace; also, the lack of a full-length flexible flue pipe insulated with vermiculite meant that the chimney didn't get hot enough to draw the smoke properly up and away.

Our new inset stove is being installed tomorrow - a 5Kw Olymberyl Gabriel Inset. This is what we have paid for, the price suited us and we are happy with our purchase.

My question relates to the flue pipe, particularly backfilling with vermiculite. Man in shop says there is no need for it as our chimney breast is inside our house, not outside. Is there a right or wrong answer? Is vermiculite a must? If the stove needs removing for whatever reason does all the vermiculite end up in the room?

paddy147 · 03-10-2012 07:09PM

Well,Im sitting here,watching the Simpsons on Sky 1 HD and enjoying my Stovax Riva 66 insert stove roaring away burning logs and briquettes.:D

dfbemt · 03-10-2012 07:46PM

paddy147 wrote: »

Well,Im sitting here,watching the Simpsons on Sky 1 HD and enjoying my Stovax Riva 66 insert stove roaring away burning logs and briquettes.:D

Don't forget to mention that you got the briquettes for cheap Paddy

Did you use vermiculite between your chimney and flue pipe?

paddy147 · 03-10-2012 07:59PM

dfbemt wrote: »

Don't forget to mention that you got the briquettes for cheap Paddy

Did you use vermiculite between your chimney and flue pipe?

Vermiculite down the chimney,stove installer had a great time of it,on the roof with the wind blowing hard.:eek::D

Made him and his helper a well earned cuppa tea,at the end.:)

Oh and 184 bales for 400 euro (sorry,couldnt resist,seen as you mentioned it).:D

Qualitymark · 03-10-2012 08:30PM

dfbemt wrote: »

Our new inset stove is being installed tomorrow - a 5Kw Olymberyl Gabriel Inset. This is what we have paid for, the price suited us and we are happy with our purchase.

My question relates to the flue pipe, particularly backfilling with vermiculite. Man in shop says there is no need for it as our chimney breast is inside our house, not outside. Is there a right or wrong answer? Is vermiculite a must? If the stove needs removing for whatever reason does all the vermiculite end up in the room?

In my cottage, the chimney breast and the entire chimney were inside the house. I should have had a proper flue and proper padding.

Daz1973 · 08-10-2012 08:15AM

Hi folks,great tread very informative
Looking to get a stove in the near future ,at present I have a wooden surround with a oval cast iron inset I think it's called a lomdard.Their is a fire brick it seems attached to the cast iron.Would like to get inset fire with no lower than 6kw of heat,any suggestions of makes and prices would be welcome.
thanks in advance

Tlane · 28-10-2012 05:25PM

Very interesting thread with lots of useful information.

I'm thinking of an insert. Does anyone have experience of the Mulberry 'Stoker', a 6.5kW insert? The brochure says it can be DIY installed in 15 minutes and says it "works perfectly in normal chimney" and "can be used with or without flexible flue liner". Mulberry are based in Carrick-on-Suir.

sooty_soupy · 29-10-2012 09:36AM

Good luck with a Mulberry. From our experience the metal components must be from China, as they tend to need replacement grates etc on a very regular basis. They are also difficult to keep air tight, so your fuel consumption will be high, and the unit tends to over burn…how many times have you heard people telling you the heat from their stove would "put you out with the heat". This is not what you want….you should be in control of you burn rate at all times, so your log and turf supply doesn't diminish in a short period of time, with a lot more heat than necessary being driven up the flue.

Also be careful about these units that are just a face across the fireplace opening. There is often no convection system which allows heat to come into the room other than radiant heat from the face. If your front face goes wrong, or the seals don't keep the unit air tight, it will be like holding a sheet of paper over an open fire to get it lit, but in this case you won't be able to take that "paper" away.

There are better inset stoves out there in my opinion. Our Clearview do one, and so do Morso and also Stovax as a good middle of the road unit…I can't stress that you get what you pay for in this industry.

Lastly, if something is being fitted DIY, just remember that IF anything goes wrong, and you have a house or chimney fire…you can be left totally exposed by your insurance company unless all fire and building regulations have been complied with…You have been warned.

www.whatstove.co.uk is a great place to research stove reviews.

David

Audioslaven · 29-10-2012 09:45AM

sooty_soupy wrote: »

There are better inset stoves out there in my opinion. Our Clearview do one, and so do Morso and also Stovax as a good middle of the road unit…I can't stress that you get what you pay for in this industry.

www.whatstove.co.uk is a great place to research stove reviews.

David

I have a Morso and a stanley. I though the stanley was good but the Morso is unbelievable. The Morso gets hot faster, uses less fuel and stays hotter longer. I would second sooty_soupy above. It may be more expensive but you get what you pay for.

sooty_soupy · 29-10-2012 10:18AM

Please excuse me for laughing, but education in this industry is something I have a thirst for on a regular basis. You are always learning. Interestingly your post highlights how much more education you need to get, to catch up. I have had meetings with the Irish Standards Agency, and it appears that you guys down there have adopted Document J as your regulations. That basically means the same as England, Scotland and Wales. The only country that has different regulations is Northern Ireland who have Technical Booklet L. Now to give you an idea of what I do in the line of educating myself, I have learnt both documents, as we supply our stoves North and South of the border, so I am in a good position to advise no matter where our stoves are going, so please don't embarrass yourself into attacking my knowledge, when you clearly don't understand yourself.

As a registered chimney sweep and instructor in northern Ireland for over 20 years I have worked with EVERY stove you could think to name. I have my opinions on them all. I will quite happily tell you what I think are good, OK and crap and make no bones about it. Your post seems to confirm my thoughts. The manufacturing of the stove components is not done in Ireland. Where they are cast and the quality of material used is open to debate, but the genial consensus is China, but I dare say is a well kept secret. ( although Mulberry could perhaps tell us ;-) ) If the stove is merely assembled in Ireland by the Stanley workforce, they are not MANUFACTURED there….and this is my point. The raw materials are the issue if you are having to replace components regularly because they are burning out.

I also have another issue with Stanley. When you ring their technical guys, you often get conflicting advice than that on their website, and all too often there is a difference of opinion between the staff you speak to as well. An example is that their installation guides will tell you that a flue should be reduced to suit the appliance, as oversized flues are unsafe, yet if you speak to someone who sells them, you are all to often told something exactly opposite, in case they scare you off buying a stove. I'm not interested in how many staff they employ to box these things, nor am I interested in the fact they might give you another piece of glass if you break it…that is just nice customer service, and most companies will do that.

As for prestigious showrooms…Well you are right that we don't have the space for another brand of stove. My issue with a lot of companies selling lines and lines of different brands of stoves is the fact that the Sales guys can't be expected to know EVERYTHING there is to know about the stoves. An example is that when you go out to play with my background and visit the places selling these things, the sales guys reach for a brochure and read the blurb…the very same blurb the manufacturer has printed to sell the bloody things. Get in the real world for God's sake. If you buy a car, do you really get the promised MPG? No I will stick with what I know thanks. If you want a Stanley, buy one and enjoy it. The world is full of choice, I just thought it would be an idea to share my experience and knowledge with the community. Have a good day

okofen wrote: »

such a load of blarney , again and again attacking a company that employs over 100 staff in ireland and manufacture their stoves in ireland, yes one of the raw materials i,e castings comes in from agas foundry in poland, but the stanley stoves are designed and manufactured in ireland, it is an insult for the 100+ stanley workers to think otherwise, uneducated people cause a lot of problems. stanley offer 3 year replacement on glass breakage. (fact). no other company will replace glass on their stoves. obviously soot soupy hasnt a prestiges enough showroom to qualify as a authorised stanley dealer and is a bit upset at this, and when giving advice to irish board memebers please deal with the irish regulations and please stop referring to wales/scotland/england/northern ireland regulations. you should mabey educate yourself a bit more.
regards
okofen

sooty_soupy · 29-10-2012 10:32AM

Pete you really need to be selling Clearview. Give me a call some time if you want to talk. You are constantly one of the few posters on this forum that talk sense. There are 5 hardware shops selling Stanley or Mulberry in a 20 mile radius of me. What the hell would a hardware shop, building supplies or plumbing counter know about the solid fuel industry…and don't get me started with the gift shop in Newcastle with two stoves in the window, and birthday cards and wrapping paper in the shop….has the son fallen on hard times in the building industry and decided he can fit stove and they are advertising for him. hmmmm

PeteHeat wrote: »

Fact: You don't need a fancy showroom to be a Stanley dealer, their stoves are available in a lot of hardware and diy stores where the staff haven't a clue about any stoves or how they work.

Fact: The glass warranty only applies if the glass breaks under "Normal Use" it is not unlimited to the point where it applies to someone trying to close the stove door against an oversized log.

Fact: The majority of Irish Building Regs are copy and paste of the UK Regs.

When is it wrong to engage and aim for "Best Working Practices"?

Some brands on sale in Ireland the UK and the Continent have different installation and user manuals, obviously when in Ireland they use the minimum requirements as stated in the Irish regs, does that mean it is right to cut corners because a government department is not up to date?

I don't sell Clearview or Stanley, in fact I do not sell the majority of the more expensive inset stoves because they are not designed to work in accordance with the Irish installation manuals supplied.

There are facts, there is common sense and there is good working practice based on experience and safety, give me the latter anyday.

.

sooty_soupy · 29-10-2012 10:37AM

rpmcs wrote: »

stockton 7 inset is great little stove in my opinion, but glass again probably not what your looking for,riva 40 or bigger 55 if you have the size, big flame picture with both, but bit pricey in comparison, some have fans but have no experience with them in use so can comment other than to say it makes sense,

Good enough stove, but airwash was a bit hit an miss. Lovely when burning well, but with no adjustment on the door to tighten the rope seal, it tended to over burn unless you regularly replaced the rope. When it did over burn the double baffle assembly suffered, and replacing them means your bank balance does too. Over £250 we paid in the trade for two baffles. The tiles were something stupid, so we cut our own from Skamolex, and the glass was over £120 so we got some cut without the logo for £30….Shortly after that the baffles went again and it was pulled out and a Clearview went in. Sorted

sooty_soupy · 29-10-2012 10:40AM

zipps wrote: »

Thank you RPMCS.

My requirements for a stove are insert and the biggest glass door I can get. My room size suits a 5 kw but I was going to get a 7kw so I could open door and warm rest of house a bit.
i have seen the Arrow eco burn but the glass is very small and i really want to be able to see a lot of the fire.

Would you recommend any other one? Should I be getting one with a fan? or what if anything is the advantage of a fan?
What about Stovax? I have heard them recommended but know nothing about them.

I would appreciate any advise you can give.

If it is a good sized window on the fire, controllability, double glazed so the glass stays clean (not relying on airwash over a single glass panel which can be hit and miss unless you are blazing the fire), a good convection system to ensure you get all the heat from the unit even though most of the fire is inset, then the Clearview Vision inset will tick the box.

sooty_soupy · 29-10-2012 10:51AM

white_westie wrote: »

Pete

Don't really want to get into a discussion on the flue lining debate here, but am aware of the issues, its just that all the 'experts' seem to contradict each other too much. No more like cleaning/inspecting the chimney, its something I need to consider further, and take into account the associated costs. As a retailer yourself (I assume from your website!), what advice do you give to potential purchasers of 5KW inset stoves?

For the moment just trying to feel my way as to what's what out there in the market, how much it costs and really what are the options.

You suggestion re the HETAS (UK organisation!) guide on the stove installation, I assume that's the manufacturers installation manual?
Currently not able to find one for Aarrow EB5 or Esse 301 inset but will be emailing or ringing UK in the next few days.

WW

If you are fitting an inset stove, be sure to fit either a steel flue to suit the appliance, or at the very least make sure all the joints of the flue you have a sealed and seated correctly and free from cracks, although the old clay flues will cause condensates to build up in the flue. The best thing to do is ask the manufacturer directly, not the sales people what there "best practice" is. I know Clearview insist on the steel flue with a backfill of insulation to keep flue gases warm when such an efficient appliance is burning slowly. The amusing thing is that a lot of people present to our showroom with a requirement for kw output, which the manufacturers all publish, yet if you put the stove into a flue the wrong size for it, then the KW output is compromised, as the flue is over rated and causes over burning with cheaper stoves. This poses a problem for fuel efficiency and wear and tear on the unit itself. The other concern is from a fire hazard point of view. If soot can fall and accumulate behind the inset, it only takes a spark to start a major fire behind the stove….everything should be channeled down into the stove itself.

Good luck to you.

sooty_soupy · 29-10-2012 10:56AM

Qualitymark wrote: »

I finally got a stove installed - not inset but freestanding - a Clearview, installed by County Down Stoves, I think they were called. I'm ecstatic with it. It produces vast amounts of heat for little fuel.

It required installation of a flexible steel flue, and disassembly of the hearth, so was expensive, but I love it.

We don't do cheap…we do good.

Tlane · 30-10-2012 04:34PM

Thanks sooty_soupy. Lots of interesting information there. Clearly I need to dig deeper before taking a decision but it is no surprise that you say "you get what you pay for". This applies to most things in life!

manufan16 · 30-10-2012 05:15PM

Hi sooty_soupy,

Could I have your opinion on the chopok back boiler 600/440 inset stove if you have heard of them?

I have just had it installed and soon will be building the enclosure/chimney breast around it.

thanks

inspiron6000 · 31-10-2012 10:59AM

hi all,
i have a free standing stove. moved into the house last year so had the chimney sweep in for the first time yesterday.
he told me i had a flexi flue and i didnt need his services.
i'm not sure what he means because the previous owner told me he got it swept every year.

can anyone clear this up for me?
cheers

Qualitymark · 31-10-2012 11:03AM

inspiron6000 wrote: »

hi all,
i have a free standing stove. moved into the house last year so had the chimney sweep in for the first time yesterday.
he told me i had a flexi flue and i didnt need his services.
i'm not sure what he means because the previous owner told me he got it swept every year.

can anyone clear this up for me?
cheers

This refers to "duct and flue brushes" specially designed for flexi flue: http://www.tamarbrushes.co.uk/brushes.htm

barry75 · 01-11-2012 03:22PM

Looking to get a Insert stove anyone any suggestions for this type of fire place.It will be just to heat the room .We have a schiedel chimney in.Would there be much work in connecting to this system.

Thanks Barry

Inset Stove

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