Inset Stove

foxirl

Hi,
Moved into a new house about 2 months ago. It has an open fire which has been lit about 10 times but doesn't give out much heat. Decided to put in an inset stove. Was looking at the Riva 40 or Esse 300. Anyone have any feedback on it?

As for installing it, is it a big job. Is there a need to remove the existing fire surround to install it.

Fox

Carawaystick

I've been looking to see about a inset stove for a while, seems to be way more stoves that sit proud of the fireplace than inset ones.

I saw some place in Kildare selling them (riva) for several grand, which seems a bit steep.

let us know if you find out more.

foxirl

This is an image of the current fireplace
http://picasaweb.google.com/foxirl/RecentlyUpdated?authkey=wyAnmhehgFE#5267528094730584754



You can get the Riva 40 for about 900 stg in the UK.

I dont mind spending the money on the stove as it will pay for itself over the next few years but I just want to find out how much hassle it will be to install. Like will I have to take down the existing surround

fmcc

Hi Fox you dont need to take down surround you have two choices of inset.
Chinese type Tr4 about €550 just push againest the existing fireback or more like the esse 350/ riva 40 expect to pay about 1300 and 1600 respectivly.

both require the fireback to come out and then it depends on the height of your lentil/gather hood. on the riva there is a spigot that you can connect to your flue via adapter if the height is there other wise you need to flaunch off all 4 sides of the stove when its installed sloping them up so there are no flat spots for ash/soot to gather. You do this by removing the baffles and sliding your hand up and around its labour intensive. make sure the sides are well packed and insulated as well.

the riva may show a little of your existing frame that may need to be painted or ordere the wide frame. theres also the stockton 7 inset convector for around 1300 from the same makers of the riva but with a higher output. These stoves are excellent and are selling very well at present we have had nothing but good reports from all of them even the cheap chinese cast which for the money is an excellent little stove but if its not in stock expect a 6-8 week lead time on a lot of them. there are some other models from other companies available but may not be as common in ireland just yet.

foxirl

Hi fmcc,

Was hoping you would reply as I had read some of your earlier posts which were very informative.

My room is about 18' by 16' so which inset stove would you reccomend.
I know that the stockton 7 has a higer output but I am not sure if I have the depth in my fireplace for it.

In relation to the fireback can it just be taken out with a hammer and chissel. ie smash it out.

The house is only recently built so can I just connect to the existiong flue with a flue adapter or do I need to buy a flue liner.

Lastly can you PM me the details of your shop as if its close I might as well purchase from you as anybody else. Was goin to go to UK but might be too much hassle.
Thanks

Eurorunner

foxirl wrote: »

My room is about 18' by 16' so which inset stove would you reccomend.

Theres a calculator here

foxirl

Cheers Eurorunner

fmcc

Hi fox glad you find the posts informative.
The fireback needs to be broken out like you said with hammer/chisel but there should be mix of sand/lime behind it some or all of which may come away if it does it need to be repacked when installing the stove.
The stockton does fit into most standard opes you would be surprised how much depth is there when the fireback and fill is removed.

You dont need a liner for the flue if the height is there use the adpater and double skin flexi or rigid flue if the lentil/gatherhood is too low to fit these you can only flaunch off the tops and sides with a sand lime mix. If using flexi it needs to be secured by self tappers or something as it can be pulled apart by a cleaning brush if not done securely.

Biggest prob is getting these guys at present I had 5 stocktons expected on a delivery from stovax today and 2 landed!!!
I,ll pm the details of the shop but we may be a bit far as we are in the north west.

foxirl

Thanks fmcc.

Vidcon

Hi,
I'm thinking of fitting one of these too.

Fmcc or anyone that has a tr4: is there any information about this stove online?, is it a convector like the Riva 40 and esse 300?, 4kw?, efficiency? multi fuel?
If anyone has a link to it I would be gratefull as I can't find anything about it.
Or maybe someone that has one could scan a few pages of the booklet that comes with it.

One other question about the insert stoves, is the area where the stove meets the marble insert sealed to prevent heat being drawn back up the chimney.

Thanks

demanufactured

Id wonder why your fire dosent throw out much heat it looks like a decent fire opening , do you only light a small fire?
Also what fuel are you using?

fmcc

Hi Vid we have sold a lot of tr4s they are ok but not a huge heat output as the firebox is very small. they do convect and block off the chimney well but only for a small room. I had to change one of them to a bigger stove for someone as they felt they were not getting enough heat from it but it was a pretty big room. these stoves are not fully sealed to the granite/marble insert and even if thyere were there wll always be a bit of air running through as there are other smaller vents in stove also. They are about half the price of the other stoves though.

Dilbert75

Our front room is approx 4m x 5m x 2.1m, so requires about 3kW. Green Stoves build a 3kW insert which (I believe) doesn't require removal of the fireback. Local shop here is selling it for €499 - they've only sold one so far but haven't had any complaints back. Anyone heard of them or any experience of them?

ludermor

Sorry to hijck this thread!
I have recently fitted a Esse 350 into my new build. I fitted it pretty tight into the opening ( less than an inch all around the box) with the opening into a flue starter ( ie no flue coming from the unit itself).
It doesnt seem to be working that productively, the fire starts up very quickly but burns very quickly also. I have reduced the levels on the levers after the fire is going as per the manuals but it doesnt have a great effect. There doesnt seem to be that much heat coming through the vents either and there is more heat thrown out if the door is left open.
Am i doing something wrong either in the installation or operation? I rang the supplier ( Murphys in galway who are very helpful generally) and the thing he could add was the box not been packed tight but some material, im not sure how i could do that in such a tight space!

fmcc

HI Lud, theres not much you can be doing wrong in operation unless your fuel is poor like wet wood. The stove should not be used with door open as this defeats the purpose but I,m sure your just trying everything at present. The guys in Murphys are prob right. Even if there is an inch or half inch space all round the stove that will affect it. You can use something like vermiculite which is a granule type insulation whcih you should be able to pour/scoop into that space by taking out the baffle in the roof of the stove and filling it from there. three elbows can help in this operation. you could also try packing with rockwool but the vermiculite is a better job. Finally did you slope up the sides to leave no flat spot for soot build up? Slope up a mix of sand lime cement 7:1:1 from the spigot right up to the flue gather at 45 degrees or steeper. Not only does this avoid chimney fires in the future from a soot build up but if its open at present most of your heat will be going up the flue too and this mix will act as another insulator.

ludermor

fmcc wrote: »

HI Lud, theres not much you can be doing wrong in operation unless your fuel is poor like wet wood. The stove should not be used with door open as this defeats the purpose but I,m sure your just trying everything at present. The guys in Murphys are prob right. Even if there is an inch or half inch space all round the stove that will affect it. You can use something like vermiculite which is a granule type insulation whcih you should be able to pour/scoop into that space by taking out the baffle in the roof of the stove and filling it from there. three elbows can help in this operation. you could also try packing with rockwool but the vermiculite is a better job. Finally did you slope up the sides to leave no flat spot for soot build up? Slope up a mix of sand lime cement 7:1:1 from the spigot right up to the flue gather at 45 degrees or steeper. Not only does this avoid chimney fires in the future from a soot build up but if its open at present most of your heat will be going up the flue too and this mix will act as another insulator.

Hi fmcc,
Am i right in thinking that if i take out the baffle at teh top i should be trying to fill all the gaps around the sides of the stove? I have fairly stout arms so i get what your saying bout the 3 elbows
No i didnt slope the sides there is a flue gatherer above the stove ( think that the word! i was originally going to have a open fire there) so once i have filled the gaps should i try and fill up to the slope on the gatherer and moe or less leave no open space at the back of the stove?
Cheers again fmcc

fmcc

Hi Lud yeah 3 elbows help if you can get any packing in and push the stove in it might reduce the amount you need to fill through the baffle. You do need to slope up to the gather though as this other wise will be a flat spot where ash/soot can gather and lead to chimney fires at a later date as a normal sweep of the chimney wont get it out so imagine the flue gather in reverse/upside down and thats kinda what your trying to achieve on all 4 sides but it should make the heat from the stove a lot better. Anyone we put one in for is literally raving about them.

ludermor

Fmcc,
Thanks for the advice, it will be a nice project for me one of these weekends.
Just one more question about sealing around the stove at the wall. The stove came with a rope but im not sure where it was supposed to be fitted, i tried to pack it around the outside face of the stove but it was leaving a gap , is it to be fitted tot eh sides of the stove and is it supposed to be completely airtight? Last week during the storms there was quite a big howling noise going into vent at the top ( i am on the Atlantic coast so i was getting the brunt of the wind) is this normal?

fmcc

Yeah the rope can be used to seal but normally we dont use it as we get a good seal to the fireplace. You can get a whistleing noise with high winds which should according to esse calm down after a few months of settling in.
The stoves will never be completly airtight as there are some air spaces in the stove that allow air through even if you have all vents of the stove closed but it does close off 95% of air loss.

ludermor

Cheers for that.

foxirl

Stove should be arriving next week so will post up pics once its done.

On a seperate matter bought a thermometer today and temp in room was 15 degrees at 6PM. I then switched on the heating (Gas boiler heating radiators) and its now 8 and the temperature in the room is only 20. Still seems cold. Anyone know what temperature in a room should roughly be in most houses fot it to be comfortable.

Measured the room and its 15 foot by 12.
One door in the room to hall and one large window 5 by 6
There is one double radiator measuring 4.5 by 1.5

Hopefully the stove will sort out the heat but does teh above seem right to you lot.

Connacht

Hi,
The size of your room doesn't matter. 20 to 21 degrees should be warm enough. But it's a personal choice.
fmcc, as you can see from my username, I'm in the West. Would you please pm me your shop details also. I've been on the lookout for an insert stove to put into my 12-year old house's open fireplace (40 cm wide) for two years now. I did try Murphy's at one stage and found them totally unhelpful, but that was 2 years ago.
My room is 8 m x 4 m, with a 'dividing' archway half way down the 8 m. Each 4 m x 4 m area has a double width radiator in it. My wife says it's never warm enough.
Thanks.

fmcc

Thanks for your interest Connacht pm sent.

TheHairyFairy

Also interested in an inset stove, however would need it to run around 14-15 radiators, some of those are small and around half or so are doubles? Is there anything in the market that will do the above and not cost me an arm and a leg?

fmcc

Hi hairy haven't seen an inset to run that many rads get a heat load calculated by ana instaler so then you know you need either 60,000 btus or 18kw whichever but at least you will know. I think for that many though a freestanding may the only option.

Pique

I was looking into this myself and have narrowed it down to these 2 stoves.

Aarow Stratford Ti40B



Charnwood SLX45i (Complete overkill for us)
Charnwood SLX20 (much more like it!)



Can anyone tell me the average output of a Grant 16" back boiler in an open fireplace as to compare it to the outputs for these stoves ?

aledoux

Would you consider installing an Stovax Riva 40 Inset Stove to be a DIY job ?
I am planning to purchase one from Northern Ireland and install it myself following the installation instructions available on the Stovax website.

Is it a bad idea ?

Thanks.

Dilbert75

That's a nice looking stove - if you don't mind me asking, where are you buying from and how much?

firepl

foxirl wrote: »

Hi,
Moved into a new house about 2 months ago. It has an open fire which has been lit about 10 times but doesn't give out much heat. Decided to put in an inset stove. Was looking at the Riva 40 or Esse 300. Anyone have any feedback on it?

As for installing it, is it a big job. Is there a need to remove the existing fire surround to install it.

Fox

hi fireplace man here both are very good but riva lot more exp

Vidcon

fmcc thanks for the advice back in December.
I went with the tripp tr4 and after a small fitting issue (now resolved) its working better than expected. I'd recommend the tr4 to anyone thinking of getting an inset stove. Its in a room 5x4m, load it twice an evening and the room is a constant 24 degrees after about an hour. We end up opening the door to let the heat out into the hallway.

hashey

hi all
found this thread as I was looking for info on an insert stove-we have just changed from a gas riva to a solid fuel riva 66 and decided to install it ourselves. as we wanted the insert to be at the top of the opening we fitted a stainless steel adaptor 6inch - 8inch to the stove and directly to the 8inch flue. seems to work fine except the wall above the stove gets extremely hot and has cracked the plaster- the gap around the stove is approx 1 inch and we filled with rockwool- what can we do to stop the wall heating up as im sure that it will eventually crack the blocks and flue as well

discostu1

Hi lads was quoted a price of €650 for a TR4 in Cork any one know where I can do better than that

sooty_soupy

Are you seriously considering fitting inset stoves in the manner you have recommended in these posts. As Chairman of the Northern Ireland Association of Chimney Sweeps, and a technical advisor to N.I Building control, I read your posts in total disbelief.

Why would you not just advise fitting the stove in compliance with building guidelines and reduce the diameter of the flue to suit the applaince you are fitting? By doing so, you can bring the adapter on a steel sleeve directly onto the collar of the stove. Therfore all the soot and deposits will come down onto the throat plate of the stove rather than accumulate around the top of the stove out of reach, which is nothing more than a FIRE HAZARD.

To add to the benefit of correctly fitting the stove this way, you can also be assured of the correct performance of the appliance. The stoves are tested to determine the KW output based on the correct diameter of flue, so hoping it will burn as well using a larger diameter of clay liner is ludicrous. Why spend money on a stove and not fit it correctly.

In fairness all stoves should have a steel lining system installed to the top of the flue, and insulated. The reason is that flue gas temperature are a lot lower from a closed appliance than that of an open fire, therfore a little extra work needs to be done to maintain the low flue temperatures so that condensates and large volumes of combustibles don't build up. It is more critical with insets as the end user is very rarely, if ever going to pull baffles out and reach up into the chamber you are creating to remove such deposits. What happens next is the guys with hose pipes come out to deal with yet another dangerous installation.

In the republic of Ireland you have to comply with building control guidelines which are currently document J. In the North we work to technical booklet L, and in both it clearly states you should reduce the diameter of the flue to suit the appliance, as oversize flues can be unsafe...I would go further and say that the advice from some of the stockists is just as dangerous.

Ring and speak to the manufacturers technical support and ask them if they would recommend fitting a steel sleeve and see what they say. Stockists are often reluctant to tell you what you need to do in case they loose the sale. If they have sold a stove, the installation is out of their hands. Simple...tell you what you want to hear.

As always in these forums, a little knowledge is often dangerous, and this is a classic.

PM me if you need any help.

I have fitted all the models you have all listed in this forum, and have had problems at times with the flue systems coming down onto the flat top. The Clearview inset has the benefit of a sloped ceiling to the back of the fireplace, ensuring the liner can make a nice neat fitting to the the stove without impeding the concrete head or lintle.

On another note, Clearview are the only company I know that show that the flue needs lined in every installation. You get an excellent UK manufactured stove for your money, and the advice for fitting it correctly. A lot of stockists can't get an account with Clearview because they don't have the background in the solid fuel industry. Clearview don't want box movers selling their products in case the fantastic reputation is jepordised.

It appears that there are other stockists advertising they are able to get certain brands of stove, so we are doing the same.

Hope this helps to clear up some other issues.

sooty_soupy

On another note, the adapters some of the posters continue to mention about do not work, and are also flying in the face of you building control guidelines.

If there are spigot and socketed joints within a flue system, the socket points upwards, much like clay liners to contain moistures. The steel adapter slipped up inside the existing liner is the first upside down joint in your flue system.

You also don't know if the clay liners are installed upside down, which means that if condensates, (treacle like tar) is accumulating inside a cold masonry flue when the stove is burning slow, it can weep through the liners into the void behind and you will then get black tar marks on the walls throughout the property.

PM me and I'll send you some wonderful photos I have accumulated in 20 years as a registered chimney technician.

David

fmcc

David, i have read your posts and acknowledge your experiance in the sector but to open this up a bit.

1. Can you point me in Doc J where it says the flue is sized to the appliance and outlaws adapters? The only place I see anything near it is on page 5 in the table and it lays down the minimum size permissable of the flue if connecting to a chimney. Or if using a prefabricated flue run that the run is the same size all the way as the outlet spigot of the appliance.

2. In my experiance building regs defer to manufacturers recomendations in any "grey area" and on the first page of the document it states that in existing buildings an adapted approach use may be used as long as it is in keeping with the priciples of the document. We have so far approached Esse and Stovax about sloping in the insert stoves. Both had said that it was an acceptable method of fitting and would have no problem standing over them. In most instances where we fit there is a gatherhood in place usually restricting the option of having any liner or adapter in place as you only have an inch or two of movement. Very often the spigot is not directly under the chimney liner. I am open to any suggestions short of major building work as thats not what my customers want.

3. Of course condensation can be an issue in chimneys but the first question I ask is whether the chimney breast is internal in the house and therefore insulated with the exception of the stack or external where I would see it being a far bigger issue with winds chilling the already relatively cool flue gases. However a far bigger issue that will cause the tar you mention is the burning of insuffuciently seasoned wood which is a much bigger problem that we encounter. I have been told of some people deliberatly wetting wood in order for it to last longer. This obviously has the added impact of blackening the glass.

4. One stove manufacturer in particlular ( European) has in their instructions not on any circumstances to use flexi liner why I am unsure but the distributor here in Ireland does advise fiting the stoves with flexi so a direct contradiction between the two.

5. On blackening glass do the clearview keep the glass clean even on an overnight burn?

I take issue that any of these are fire hazards when we slope in an insert the angle is high enough so that the ash falls back to the stove if we just lashed them in and packed with rockwool I would agree with you.

Dilbert75

This all sounds like a very important technical discussion between two knowledgeable people but, as an end user, it makes little sense to me. What I want to know is:
- if I want to install an inset stove, where do I find a good one for a reasonable cost
- is an inset stove something that I (as a reasonably competent person) can DIY install in a day?
- if the stove I select comes with instructions showing that you place it into the fireplace, with the fireback in place, and tighten up the locating arm, all without connecting the stove to the chimney (other than placing it underneath it), is that going to have negative consequences?

fmcc

Dilbert
1. prices vary shop around as there are some big descrepancies for the same models. deals can also be had where showrooms are selling off models ex display. What size do you need?
2. imho yes pretty easy to install for a competent diy person.
3.No negative consequences (again imho) for cleaning you remove baffle undo locating arm pull out stove, clean chimney and replace.

PeteHeat

Hi Dilbert,

We have sold a lot of TR3's and 4's without any problems, because they are designed to be installed so that they can be removed for chimney cleaning etc.

Regarding the other insert models mentioned I will not sell and install them as a retro fit product, and yes there is one on display in our showroom.

The reason being the manufacturers have not answered my questions with regard to a safe connection between the spigot and the flue when there is no access.

A distributor gave me unofficial instructions on how to carry out a retrofit installation that made absolutely no sense, basically breaking the rules of Part J and common sense.

We have been selling an insert that we buy direct from the factory in Europe for over five years, they are not designed for retrofit without major structural work, the ones we sold were fitted into fireplaces designed to suit the insert or as our supplier calls them "Fireplaces".

I honestly believe Irish and UK fireplaces were never designed for many of of the insert products on sale and equally the inserts were not designed for our standard fireplaces.

.

sooty_soupy

To be concise as possible

Chapter 1 subsection 38 of Document J which the Irish government have adopted, and Section 1 subsection 31 for technical booklet L in N. Ireland states that flues should be reduced in size to suit the intended appliances as oversized flues can be unsafe.

Many manufacturers of stoves will claim high efficiency rates for their appliances, but these can only be expected if the flue is of the same diameter as the appliance outlet, which is used during testing. Oversized flues will clearly cause an over burn issue as it attempts to pull significantly larger volumes of combustion air through the appliance. A new applaince is fine for a while, but give it a few months until rope seals become compressed and that oversized flue can cause disasters with the cheaper quality "cast iron" stoves. Inverted commas were used because very few are pure cast iron any more, but pig iron which is scrap metal...the product the far east have been buying up from us, is smelted...weakening the metal, and then after being made into something that looks like a stove with matt black spray is shipped half way around the globe again to be heated in our homes until the back side burns out of them.

Ask yourself why the Victorian fireplaces have original parts still in tact and yet the new grate for the open fire you bought a few months ago is bent and falling apart already, and suddenly your wee stove is not such a good buy is it?

Flue adapters sold in retail shops. Lets move on to them then will we. Well Document J and Technical booklet L state that spigot and socket joints should be orientated with the sockets pointing upwards to contain moistures in the flue. Vitreous enamel pipe and clay liners all have such joints, but how many times do you see them upside down...Yeah I know, and have some wonderful pictures of the aftermath. These adapters being sold..when you stick them up inside a clay liner, you are creating an upside down joint. Once more our web site has some pretty good pictures, but I'm not mentioning the web address. You might have to be creative and go looking for it...I'm not allowed to advertise the site hear you know.

You are quite right about the "grey areas" causing problems with building control guidelines...as you say they are a set of guidelines. Where is the grey area though. "reduce the diameter of the flue to suit the applaince as oversized flues can be unsafe" Of course a manufacturer is going to tell you it will be fine to throw a unit in....but ask them for that in writing and see what happens, with a signature to cover you in the event of a fatality. The lawyer who has read up the building control documentation will be asking you some very awkward questions in front of the judge, and a verbal instruction from a techie on the phone will not protect you. Your post seems a little contradictory if you don't mind me saying so. If you flaunch cement all over the top of the stove, how do you propose removing it to sweep which seems to be what you are advising Dilbert. Surely having to remove the appliance to carry out a simple maintenance job like sweeping the chimney is a bit much for old mrs down the street. I know if I was being asked to sweep a chimney and someone asked me to remove the appliance as it was the only way to clean it, I would slap a condemned label on it once I had stopped laughing and charge the customer for wating my time. At no point should you have to remove an appliance to sweep the chimney...check your regs again. It may be worth asking John over in Stovax if he would recommend a steel lining system or the cement back fill. Give him the two alternatives and ask him which he would prefer.

Moving swiftly on

If you are having problems making the connection to the inset using a steel liner you either need to rethink your strategy or refuse to fit them. One regular poster has done just that, but in our industry you have to be creative at times. Some manufacturers, which I mention quite often have an inset with the provision of making the flex union at a slight angle to allow for lintles and concrete heads. Nice to work with I can assure you.

Your concrete throating block is causing a smoke chamber and everything within a flue should gradually taper in to encourage flue gasses to quickly vent the system, not cause swirling smoke movements. This is the very reason that flues should be as close to vertical as possible and you should avoid bends wherever possible.

Another point on using the existing clay liners. Do you carry out a CCTV inspection to make sure they are installed correctly, and not thrown together leaving gaps all over the place or upside down. More importantly can Dilbert do this before he DIY's his stove. See how long it takes for the gable wall or internal wall to be DESTROYED with condensate when the client uses the damp wood or damp coal etc. When they have huge black patches coming through the walls, it doesn't get pretty when they are in your showroom shouting and yelling at you threatening legal action when you are trying to close on another sale.

Were getting there now, bear with me.

One stove manufacturer is stating not to flue line with steel, but the distributer here says you should...well maybe it is just me, but perhaps the mainland Europeans know how to prepare, store and burn dry seasoned wood and don't have the issues we have with condensates. Wood burning is a way of life for many of my freinds in the chimney industry around the globe, it just seems to be the UK and Ireland that a lot of the stoves are being sold as the latest accessory to save money, and the retailers are perhpas not doing enough to educate the customer before selling the stove. It may also be the fact that most European countries have pumice lining systems with high Thermal qualities, where here we have clay that are woeful...and then of course it might be that regulations are different here, and the distributer knows what is required to get the best from the stove.

And finally, you'll be pleased to know. A Clearview stove is quite possibly the best stove I have seen, and I've seen a lot. They get their name for a reason. Overnight burning is very simple as they are one of the most controllable stoves around. We have used our Showroom models overnight on a few occasions and they have had nothing more than a film on the window the following morning, which burnt off within 3 minutes of refuelling, then remained clear for the rest of the day as they do. 4 dry logs, less than 20% moisture, and the Solution 500 stayed in from 5pm until 9.30am the following morning....Thanks for asking, as I am merely answering your question, not advertising.

Well I think that is enough to be getting on with. Any more questions, and I'll try to help.

Best regards

David

PeteHeat

Hi,

Apologies almost missed your question.

From your description of the problem it is either extremely hot flue gas which I doubt as it takes the equal of a roaring chimney fire to crack the plaster on a chimney breast.

I expect the stove is over heating because the heat built up in the stove has nowhere to go, see above where I believe many of these products are not suited to our fireplaces.

The European model we sell must have air drawn in under the stove and around the sides, the air drawn in must be able to circulate around the stove body and exit approx one metre high above the stove from a vent in the chimney breast.

The air drawn in is not for combustion, that is taken from outside by way of a duct and connected to the under side of the stove.

Removing the fibreglass from around the casing may help a little as the heat may be able to circulate around the body / casing on the stove.

I suggest that you return to your supplier and request a visit from their after sales service.

.

sooty_soupy

Peter you are quite right. I would say a lot of the insets are not designed for installation to standard fireplaces, especially the bigger output stuff. I would say that Stovax have a couple which work very well, being the Stockton 7 and the Riva 40. The only issue I have is what FMCC says which is that they are not lending themselves to easy installation if they are fitted with a steel sleeve...and I think you all now know my feelings on this...

I think I am right in saying morso steel stoves have one or two, as well as Dovre. You will find that very few if any are "cast" stoves, but the more forgiving and airtight steel units. Of course the Clearview inset is designed for working with a standard 16" opening without any problems, and lends itself to easier fitting many of the others, with it's sloping ceiling.

Can someone tell me what the insurance viewpoint is in the South in the event of a house fire, especially if the stove was a DIY project gone wrong? Just curious as I do a lot of assessment work for loss adjusters up here and I know they are becoming very tight on this very issue, which is why we are keen to get HETAS operational in the North to run alongside the NIACS.

sooty_soupy

Hi Hashey,

the Riva 66 instruction will clearly state that the chimney breast needs to be plastered with heat resistant screed. We couldn't get it easily, so we used a sheet of 12mm masterboard fitted to the wall with the hole cut through for the unit to sit on the concrete plinth we built above the log store. This was painted with heat resistant paint and it has worked well with our Riva 55 for years. I wouldn't pack with rockwool, as this restricts air movement which helps keep the back of the unit cool. The air will be drawn under the stove and it is then vented out through the top using convection currents, which so many inset stoves utilise. With the bigger Riva products, this heat can also be ducted to other rooms if needed and this can all be encouraged with optional electric fans.

You should think about steel lining with insulation as it is possible that the existing clay liners may not have insulation around them, but as Peter says, it is unlikley this is the full cause, but it could only help. Read the other posts on reducing the diameter of the flue to suit the appliance.

Best regards

David

oconnorw

Read www.csai.ie . I quote from the site since I was considering myself getting one installed until I realised we are dealing with a cowboy industry. Thankfully I read this.

A WORD OF CAUTION : Before buying a multi-fuel /wood burning stove or Inset stove please be advised that according to Building Regulations -1997-Technical Guidance Document J.Heat Producing Appliances.

• There must be a soot door in place or a way for sweeping of the appliance.
• The appliance should never be allowed to sit on the hearth of the fireplace unless it is at least 300 ml.(12 inches ) away from combustibles. (carpets/wooden flooring/etc..)
• A class 1 stainless steel flexible flue-liner should also be professionally fitted to the appliance.
• The horizontal run should not exceed 150mm (6 inches)
• Never use 90 degree bends.
• Finally, if you're considering slumbering your appliance overnight ( not recommended) we would advise using grade 904 stainless steel flexible liner especially if using smokeless fuel.
Fireplace insets are appliances that are partially or completely inserted into a fireplace firebox. While these units are classified as circulating heaters, the front portion of the inset is actually a radiant heater.
Fireplace inset stoves should never be just pushed into the firebox, these appliances require professional fitting, which includes relining of the chimney.

WARNING: A faulty installation can cause danger to the inhabitants and structure of the building. Your building insurance company may require you to inform them that you have installed a new heating appliance.

Check that your cover is still valid after installing the appliance. If you have a multi-fuel/wood burning stove or inset stove and are concerned that your appliance may not be fitted to Building Regulations. Please do not hesitate to contact me or Minister John Gormley email: minister@environ.ieThis e-mail address is being protected from spam bots, you need JavaScript enabled to view it

Any retailer or tradesman that advises you that you do not need to professionally fit a multi-fuel/wood burning appliance to Building Regulations-1997- Technical Guidance Document J- Heat Producing Appliances or the Manufacturers' installation manual has no idea of chimney physics or the sale of goods act (1980).

Small Claims Procedure
The Small Claims Procedure is a special mechanism for dealing with small claims with in the District Court structure. The procedure is designed to handle consumer complaints quickly, cheaply and informally without a solicitor. Claims in respect of personal injuries are excluded and the maximum claim currently is €2,000. You can get an application form and more information on this procedure from your Local District court or online at www.smallclaims.ie . It costs just €9 to bring a claim to the court, but is well worth it if you win.

We have seen and continue to see multi-fuel/wood burning stoves and insets being sold and fitted incorrectly by retailers and tradesmen who have no formal training or qualifications in the safe installation of these appliances, which not only leads to chimney fires, but can also lead to a potential ingress of carbon monoxide poison which can be fatal.

As a chimney fire investigator I have seen an increasing amount of chimney fires associated with multi-fuel/wood burning appliances. These fires accounted for 76% of all my chimney fire investigations for the month of December 2008.

I would like to thank this householder for allowing me the opportunity to inform the public as to what can happen when someone you think is qualified, isn't. The following case involves a double chimney fire in County Wicklow. This chimney had caught fire as the Irish fire service had responded not once but twice to put out the fire. Our investigation uncovered the following facts:

1. The multi-fuel appliances were not fitted to the manufacturers’ installation manual.
2. The creosote deposits in the chimney were not removed before installing the new stainless steel liners.
3. The plumber -with over 20 years experience had used the wrong grade liner.

The 304 grade liner which should only be used for oil/gas melted due to the intense heat of the solid fuel appliance, this then ignited the creosote deposits which moved up and over the unfinished midfeather wall which then transferred to the adjoining property .

This picture is an example of what can happen when a tradesman (?) without any formal training or qualifications in the safe installation of multi-fuel/wood burning appliances can do, not only to you and your family, but also your unsuspecting neighbors' as well.





The lady sleeping next door, awoke with her bedroom floor on fire, luckily she managed to get out. This had been the one of the most serious breaches of Building Regulations I had seen in my short time as a chimney fire investigator. It could have easily resulted in a death. I immediately brought this to the attention of the Minister for Environment, Heritage and Local Government, John Gormley. I had sent many emails in the past to this Minister regarding the increasing number of chimney fires, the role that multi-fuel/wood burning appliances are having on this issue and the real problem of retailers/tradesmen fitting these appliances without any formal training or qualifications. I had hoped that by emailing this photographic proof, the Minister might act. I sent copies of the report to the leaders of Fine Gael and the labour party respectfully. I would like to thank Eamon Gilmore and Deputy Liz McManus for their efforts.

sooty_soupy

You will all be pleased to know that the guy trying to set up the CSAI has liaised with the NIACS and has had some basic training with us. His son has trained with us here as a chimney technican, and although I have a few reservations about the fact that Patrick Cowan chose to go to America for some reason to complete his training, even though the codes and regualtions are significantly different to the UK or Ireland, at least they are going the right way. A lot of the info on their site was taken from my original site apart from rewording here and there, but hey..it's a start for the republic in the right direction so I didn't object too much.

Best regards

David

delaney_p

hi

i'm buying a new house/new build in kildare and the house doesn't have a chimney. they guy selling the house says that the fireplace is flueless. does anyone know anything about these? are they safe?

I'd like to put in a gas stove (its plumbed in on mains bord gais), but I've been recommended a "balanced flue". how big a job would it be to put this in?

The fireplace is in the middle of the wall between my house and the semi next door, so the flue would need to run approx 10 feet. are there any complications? does the flue need to go out @ 45 degrees or can I run the flue up the "fake" chimney brest and @ 90 degrees along the ceiling out through the front of the house?

Any thoughts would be appriciated.

Paul

fmcc

David still cant see where in the Irish regulations it states a flexi liner must be used. Not trying to be pedantic but am being accused of not complying to Irish regs but when I read the the Irish regs I see no mention of it having to be fitted that way. Flues and chimneys are mentioned on pages 4,5,7,and 8.

On the insert stove that discostu is talking about its designed to sit againest an existing fireback and be taken out when cleaning required. We do not do cctv inspections prior to installation we expect the chimney has been constructed corrctly and believe its the architects job to pass on whther its being done correctly or not. I hesitate to ask how much an installation would be with cctv.

On oconorw post above the reason for the fire was the chimney not being cleaned correctly and the wrong grade liner being used. As anyone who has handled both liners could tell which was for which very easily I amazed but not shocked. The only problem stove that I had to call out to was where a baffle was not installed and high temp silicone was used by the plumber installing resulting in a fire on the flue itself.

The esse 350 also hs a sloped ceiling and the option of an offset adapter but the problem is usually one of room to manoveure.

PeteHeat

oconnorw wrote: »

Read www.csai.ie . I quote from the site since I was considering myself getting one installed until I realised we are dealing with a cowboy industry. Thankfully I read this.

I sincerely hope you are not including every retailer and installer with the above comment.

I for one am physically and mentally tired of consumers who come into our showroom get good advice and then start "heated discussions" about how a friend or family member had a stove fitted with long pipes off the back and they worked.

Worse they insist that twin wall flue is not needed when going through a wall or ceiling because they have seen a vitreous enamel pipe from the stove through the roof, or the usual being "we have been to other shops and they didn't say it was wrong".

Others have said that they come into buy a stove multi fuel or wood pellet and all I am doing is creating obstacles because other retailers told them the stove will work without flues (pellet) and they don't need to follow the regulations regarding pipe lengths and angles (solid fuel).

Thats just stoves considering we sell pellet boilers and solar its no wonder that I am tired of people who refuse to listen to common sense, the very same people are the ones who tell neighbours, friends and family about how bad the systems work conveniently forgetting that they were told and chose to ignore the advice because it would have cost more money.

The web sites, hardware store and builders merchants who stock stoves do so to sell them, they do not see themselves in the role of advisors regarding installation or the relevant standards, they also sell the flue liners based again on the cheapest product on their computer, they do not see it as their job to know the difference between the products.

CSAI

The particular example given points to an installer who hadn't a clue about the difference between an old chimney and a modern one, or the differences in flexible flue liners.

Part J clearly states the flue must not be smaller than outlet from the appliance, like fmcc I can not find reference to reducing the size of the flue to suit the appliance, however with certain products and chimneys it does make sense and may be noted in the manufacturers instructions.

fmcc is also correct about the TR4 it is designed to be taken out when cleaning the chimney, in fact I believe it is one of the products strong points, unlike the more expensive units it does exactly what it says nothing more, nothing less.

I also agree with sooty_soupy, American standards have very little in common with the Irish or UK regulations, if the CSAI wanted to impress me they would be promoting standards similar to the Germans where the title Chimney Sweep is that of a true professional, they do a lot more than sweep chimneys.

The reference to the Govt Ministers is nothing more or less than a sick joke, we have regulations, guidelines, manufacturers installation instructions and common sense to work from, if customers will not listen their is very little anyone can do.

We also have building control officers attached to our local authority / council offices if the Minister or our Government had any interest in the consumer they would have those departments actually working.

Rant over.

.

PeteHeat

Hi,

Where gas is concerned you will need the advice and services of a Registered Gas Installer www.rgii.ie/

The flue less models tend to require a lot of air to work safely, I am open to correction but I think you need a vent at both ceiling and floor level.

There are different ways of fitting a balanced flue and the rules are very strict, the distance between the stove and the outside wall may be a problem, you may have the option of running a flue up through the house and providing combustion air from under the room.

I recommend that you contact an RGI member as they are qualified to provide the answers.

.

sooty_soupy

OK here is a link to Document J, which I have been led to believe Ireland has adopted.

http://www.documentj.co.uk/Sections.aspx?docid=1&docname=Document+J&headingid=61&sectionid=0&selected=s001-000&target=s001-000#s001-020

And here are the paragraphs I would draw to your attention, which will be found in the document.
1.33 Fluepipes with spigot and socket joints should be fitted with the socket facing upwards to contain moisture and other condensates in the flue. Joints should be made gas-tight. A satisfactory way of achieving this would be to use proprietary jointing accessories or, where appropriate, by packing joints with non-combustible rope and fire cement.



Now let me say that UNLESS you can be sure the liners are correctly installed, you can not assume anything.



YOU ARE THE LAST PERSON WORKING AT THE PROPERTY....YOU ARE THE FALL GUY IF THINGS GO WRONG...trust me on this..I have been an expert witness in court cases already.




Re-use of existing flues

1.36 Where it is proposed to bring a flue in an existing chimney back into use or to re-use a flue with a different type or rating of appliance, the flue and the chimney should be checked and, if necessary, altered to ensure that they satisfy the requirements for the proposed use. A way of checking before and/or after remedial work would be to test the flue using the procedures in Appendix E .
1.37 A way of refurbishing defective flues would be to line them using the materials and components described in Sections 2 , 3 and 4 dependent upon the type of combustion appliance proposed. Before relining flues, they should be swept to remove deposits.
1.38 A flue may also need to be lined to reduce the flue area to suit the intended appliance. Oversize flues can be unsafe.
1.39 If a chimney has been relined in the past using a metal lining system and the appliance is being replaced, the metal liner should also be replaced unless the metal liner can be proven to be recently installed and can be seen to be in good condition.


All pretty self explanatory I think


And lastly


Inspection and cleaning openings in flues

1.49 A flue should not have openings into more than one room or space except for the purposes of:
[FONT=&quot]1.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT]inspection or cleaning; or
[FONT=&quot]2.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT]fitting an explosion door, draught break, draught stabiliser or draught diverter.


Openings for inspection and cleaning should be formed using purpose factory-made components compatible with the flue system, having an access cover that has the same level of gas-tightness as the flue system and an equal level of thermal insulation. Openings for cleaning the flue should allow easy passage of the sweeping brush. Covers should also be noncombustible except where fitted to combustible fluepipe (such as plastic fluepipe). After the appliance has been installed, it should be possible to sweep the whole flue.


Now someone tell me where there is a problem please.


As for Peter....Well said my friend....I am so tired of dealing with clowns who think they know better, but obviously know buggar all. I personally think you should have to get a license to sell products that can burn down houses and kill people with lethal poisonous gas, but then who am I. I have only been picking up the pieces for 20 years.



About a year ago we decided to open a showroom because I thought "why should these idiots get the easy money of selling the box, and we get the hard part of putting the disasters right" ANYONE CAN SELL A BOX...but many of them may as well be selling marshmallows, as they probably know more about them than the stoves they are selling. A perfect example...a gift shop selling cards and wrapping paper about 10 miles away from us have three stoves in the window now...free delivery, free black pipe and a tub of fire cement..oh yeah and the girl is still selling the ribbon and selotape...I mean come off it.



Two many cowboys..not enough indians
or should that be



Too many box movers...not enough experts.


cynics feel we are trying to sell them more than you need, but we are more concerned with the safety of our customers. We only need one fatality or carbon monoxide incident to finish us. We invest significant time trying to undo the mess the untrained box mover caused by telling you it was OK or perhaps Mrs Smiths son, next door but one, who installed viterous enamel up through the daughters bedroom and into the attic, then out through the roof in a short 500mm length of twin wall because the plumbing counter guy, who worked there for three weeks on work experience told him that's what needed to do.



Get a grip of how dangerous fire and carbon monoxide is.


Now my rant is over too....for a while.



Keep up the good work Peter.

fmcc

David, I appreciate you posting that but its an UK reg not Irish. I was accused of not fitting to regulations which it turns out we have been.

Regulations vary, in some instances our gas regs are stricter than UK, should I now berate all gas installers north of the border that they are not fitting to standard beacuse ours is different?
In the south all open gas fires require a vent regardless of KW input while UK regs state that once the kw input is under 7kw no vent required. Are the UK killing people with carbon monoxide poisioning because of this?
I do assume that liners are installed correctly we do not carry out cctv surveys prior to installation.

Unsure what using single wall flue incorrectly has to do with lining chimneys in the above post other than to point out there are cowboys about. If the house has no flue liner ie very old stepped chimney we say a liner is needed. If there are inherent flue problems like downdraught or not enough updraught we may give some simple options to try a vent etc or reduce the size of the opening any thing else we say call out an expert flue specialist.
Bottom line legally in Ireland flue adapters than we use are in compliance with the irish regulations which have been adapted rather than adopted imho.

Finally David there is nothing personal in this I appreciate where your coming from and that you have customers best interests at heart. Its an interesting discussion.

sooty_soupy

OK let me clarify. The regulation these quotes were taken from was Document J. This is the UK and Ireland regulations. I had a meeting with the Irish Standards Agency in Dublin and they told me that this is the regulations they have adopted. In the North of Ireland we work to technical booklet L.

The reason I mention about the flue pipes was to ensure your understanding of the need to have a socket joint pointing upwards to contain moistures. These are YOUR regulations. If you put a flue adapter in and install it UP INSIDE THE EXISTING liner you have an upside down joint which will lead to condensates leaking from it....It really is that simple.

Your assumption that liners are installed correctly is fool hardy to say the least. I have seen some weird and wonderful stuff up chimneys when builders think they are never going to be caught out. Again YOUR regulations suggest that the flue should be checked and, if necessary, altered to ensure that they satisfy the requirements for the proposed use.

You are quite right, this is an interesting discussion. I don't for one minute suggest you are doing anything wrong. I am merely pointing out that Document J suggests you are, and I would hope you have some documentation that shows you are complying in other ways. As a technical advisor to building control here in the North and after studying the two documents in detail, I would be delighted to see the amended document the Irish have so I can absorb such changes. This means that when customers come across the border with a better exchange rate, with the benefit of such a good motorway and we are only 30 minutes from Newry, I am able to quote these new regulations that I didn't realise existed.

I look forward to the link in the near future so I can download my copy.

Best regards

David