Samaritans: Why 3,000 middle-aged men die by suicide each year (in the UK & Ireland)

iptba · 24-09-2012 1:34am #1

This press release has generated a lot of press coverage in Ireland so I thought it merited its own thread (I can't see a thread on it on boards). (I searched tGC messages but I couldn't see a discussion in the recent past on suicide)

Some media items:

"Disadvantaged middle-aged men 10 times more likely to commit suicide"
http://www.independent.ie/health/health-news/disadvantaged-middleaged-men-10-times-more-likely-to-commit-suicide-3235161.html

"Poor men in middle age at 10 times suicide risk"
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0920/1224324200707.html

"Loss of identity linked to suicide"
http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/loss-of-identity-linked-to-suicide-567559.html

I haven't had time to read through all the stuff the Samaritans prepared for this release but I like the way they have dug deeper into the issue: we often hear that suicide is more an issue for men than women but often the discussion stops there. I never knew the divide based on socio-economic background and income was so high.

Note, although the release concentrates on middle-aged men, whether you are male or female, no matter what your age or circumstances, please look for help if you are feeling suicidal. I'm not qualified to give advice except to say that talking to others can give new perspectives on issues.

Press release: Why 3,000 middle-aged men die by suicide each year |
Samaritans http://www.samaritans.org/news/press-release-why-3000-middle-aged-men-die-suicide-each-year

Press release: Why 3,000 middle-aged men die by suicide each year

Thursday 20th September 2012

- Embargoed until 00:01 hrs Thursday 20 September 2012 -

A new report out today (Thursday 20 September) examines in depth why men from disadvantaged backgrounds in their 30s, 40s and 50s are at higher risk of suicide. On average, around 3,000 middle-aged men take their own lives each year and men from low socio-economic backgrounds living in deprived areas are ten times more likely to die by suicide than men from high socio-economic backgrounds living in the most affluent areas.

The report, commissioned by Samaritans, the helpline charity, explores the reasons for suicide beyond mental health issues in this group of men and calls for suicide to be addressed as a health and social inequality. The research,

Men and Suicide: Why it’s a social issue, reveals that:

- men compare themselves against a ‘gold standard’ which prizes power, control and invincibility. When they believe they aren’t meeting this standard they feel a sense of shame, which can lead them to have suicidal thoughts

- men in mid-life are now part of the ‘buffer’ generation, not sure whether to be like their older, more traditional, strong, silent, austere fathers or like their younger, more progressive, individualistic sons

- the changing nature of the labour market over the last 60 years has affected working class men. With the decline of traditional male industries, they have lost not only their jobs but also a source of masculine pride and identity

- men in mid-life remain overwhelming dependent on a female partner for emotional support. But today men are less likely to have one life-long partner and more likely to live alone, without the social or emotional skills to fall back on.

This report comes on the day Samaritans launches its We’re in Your Corner campaign. It is part of a five year partnership with Network Rail to reduce suicides on the railways. It will include posters and other initiatives across the rail network aimed at reaching out to this group, encouraging them to seek help and consider calling Samaritans.

Stephen Platt, Samaritans’ Trustee and Professor of Health Policy Research at the University of Edinburgh, said: “It has been recently recognised that men in mid-life can no longer be ignored as a group at high risk of suicide. However, this report shows that it is men from low socio-economic backgrounds who desperately need help.

“Men are often criticised for being reluctant to talk about their problems and for not seeking help. With this in mind, we need to acknowledge that men are different to women and design services to meet their needs, so they can be more effective.

“The role of mental health problems in suicide is well-established and must not be ignored. But we also need to look at the economic and social inequalities that contribute to people wanting to take their own lives. Policy-makers and practitioners need to take forward our recommendations from the report as a matter of urgency.”

Samaritans is calling on national governments, health, welfare and social services, as well as the third sector, to recognise the heightened risk of suicide among disadvantaged men in mid-life, treating suicide as a health and social inequality. There are six recommendations:

1. Take on the challenge of tackling the gender and socio-economic inequalities in suicide risk.

2. Suicide prevention policy and practice must take account of men’s beliefs, concerns and context – in particular their views of what it is to ‘be a man’.

3. Recognise that for men in mid-life, loneliness is a very significant cause of their high risk of suicide, and help men to strengthen their social relationships.

4. There must be explicit links between alcohol reduction and suicide prevention strategies; both must address the relationships between alcohol consumption, masculinity, deprivation and suicide.

5. Support GPs to recognise signs of distress in men, and make sure that those from disadvantaged backgrounds have access to a range of support, not just medication alone.

Provide leadership and accountability at local level, so there is action to prevent suicide.

– ENDS –
- Strictly embargoed until 00:01 hrs Thursday 20 September 2012 -

Access the full press pack http://www.samaritans.org/media-centre/our-campaigns/were-your-corner We're in your Corner | Samaritans, including a summary of case studies and the report.

For further information about the report, to set up interviews or case studies, please contact Samaritans’ press office on 020 8394 8300 or email press@samaritans.org.

Notes to editors:

The suicide figures for the UK are supplied by the Office for National Statistics and Central Statistics Office Ireland. Male UK suicides in 2010: 700 aged 25-34, 997 aged 35-44, 906 aged 45-54, 619 aged 55-64. Male ROI suicides in 2010 = 386 deaths for all men. Middle aged men are men in their 30s, 40s, and 50s.

Men on the Ropes was the first phase of Samaritans’ campaign to reach men at higher risk of suicide, which launched in 2010. For more information see the http://www.samaritans.org/news/press-release-samaritans-reaches-out-men-ropes-0 Men on the Ropes press release Press release: Samaritans reaches out to men on the ropes | Samaritans .

Samaritans’ vision is that fewer people die by suicide. People contact Samaritans when they are struggling to cope and need someone to talk to.

More than 20,000 Samaritans’ volunteers are available round the clock, every day of the year. The helpline provides a safe place to talk and all conversations are private.

To contact Samaritans call 08457 90 90 90, email jo@samaritans.org, or visit http://www.samaritans.org/ to find your nearest branch.

To understand more about this group of men, Samaritans commissioned Volante Research to interview 12 men throughout the UK and Republic and Ireland aged between 35 and 55 from low socio-economic backgrounds

Pawwed Rig · 24-09-2012 10:31am

To give a comparative to how serious this issue is

Male ROI suicides in 2010 = 386 deaths for all men.

"The number of Irish road deaths fell to 212 in 2010" (www.rsa.ie)

The biggest issue is reaching the men that may be at risk of suicide. While the Samaritans and charities like Aware do a good job they rely on the person in question to contact them. Often a suicide will occur where the individual has never reached out for help. A further issue is that men are less likely to attend GP’s and where they do not have a medical card the cost for someone on lower incomes is prohibitive. GP’s also (at least in my experience) are more interested in getting you in and out as fast as possible than spending time with a patient.
As a society we need to be aware of the signs in our friends and relatives. Often they are the people we give out about, that cause the drama at family gatherings, the friend who has been distant recently etc etc

Piliger · 24-09-2012 12:43pm

Three things that these well meaning people miss are these.

Firstly I believe a lot of the time men take their own lives for a reason that cannot be done away with by counselling and talking, and they make a rational logical decision to do so. That will always happen and it will be far more prevalent in a deep recession like this.

Secondly they blame this 'gold standard' on the men, yet this standard is often a problem because it is applied to the men by the women in their lives.

Thirdly I personally believe that the way the family court is operating in this country is eviscerating more and more men in the middle ages and leaving them out of their houses, alone and isolated, while leaving the woman in their own home with the majority of the money and easy access to their children.

Sleepy · 24-09-2012 1:06pm

I'd say the poor treatment by the legal system in respect of access to children is a definite factor. I can imagine feeling pretty suicidal if I was facing the same situations as some fathers' I've known who were banging their heads against the brick wall of the Irish legal system. One in particular I wouldn't have swapped places with for all the tea in China: a lovely guy who'd had a fling with a complete psycho but still doted on his son only to have her level false sexual abuse allegations against him after he tried for custody and after that had been dealt with in court repeatedly broke the court agreed access agreements despite him paying more than the court agreed maintenance in order to try and placate her. (I know there are cases of similarly awful fathers but few would even try to argue that the system isn't heavily rigged in the mother's favour).

I'm don't think I'd single out the women as those that apply the breadwinner role to men. I'm sure it's a factor but most of us of the average age to be new parents in Ireland (30-35) were raised in family units where our fathers lived that role. I know for many of use our mother's went back to work once the youngest was settled into primary school but even then, the majority had the role of providing a "second" income i.e. the money for holidays and nice things rather than the "providing a roof over our heads and food on the table" role our father's filled. For the vast majority of men who are raised with a father in their lives, he's always going to be the dominant role-model in how we perceive our own role in life to be. Not being able to live up to that expectation is a very hard pill for many men to swallow.

Pembily · 24-09-2012 1:35pm

My first thought is how accurate the numbers are? A lot of suicides are classed by the coroner as accidental death or death by misadventure even though it's obvious it was suicide.

Piliger wrote: »

Three things that these well meaning people miss are these.

Firstly I believe a lot of the time men take their own lives for a reason that cannot be done away with by counselling and talking, and they make a rational logical decision to do so. That will always happen and it will be far more prevalent in a deep recession like this.

+1 to this.

How the above problem is fixed is the key issue that needs to be addressed. Lots of money is spent saving lives on the roads but no where near as much is done to address suicide. The "talk" posters are ok, but what if you are passed the talking point and on the doing point, talking won't help then.

24-09-2012 1:39pm

my friend wife left him for someone else he knew of notting i swear she also took the kid he couldnt cope only a few days without his family the kids he hung himself

Sleepy · 24-09-2012 1:57pm

Pembily wrote: »

My first thought is how accurate the numbers are? A lot of suicides are classed by the coroner as accidental death or death by misadventure even though it's obvious it was suicide.

When you consider that a lot of these cases involve car crashes where there's no passengers or other vehicles involved, it would probably make the figure even more compelling when put beside road death stats.

Pembily · 24-09-2012 1:58pm

Sleepy wrote: »

When you consider that a lot of these cases involve car crashes where there's no passengers or other vehicles involved, it would probably make the figure even more compelling when put beside road death stats.

Definitely, the numbers would be higher then. I don't agree with classing them as accidental deaths.

iptba · 24-09-2012 2:01pm

Piliger wrote: »

Three things that these well meaning people miss are these.

[..]

Thirdly I personally believe that the way the family court is operating in this country is eviscerating more and more men in the middle ages and leaving them out of their houses, alone and isolated, while leaving the woman in their own home with the majority of the money and easy access to their children.

I haven't read the full report but it is mentioned/touched on in some sections (but they didn't highlight it above):

http://www.samaritans.org/sites/default/files/kcfinder/files/Men%20and%20Suicide%20Research%20Report%20210912.pdf

Why relationship breakdown has a greater impact on men

Various explanations of the differential impact of
relationship breakdown on suicide risk among men
and women have been proposed.

[..]

Fourth, despite the fact that actual practices of
fathering may not have significantly changed, there
is an increased cultural emphasis on men as
involved fathers. When marital relationships fail,
men are less likely to be awarded custody of, or
have access to, their children. Separation from
children appears to be a significant factor in some
men’s suicides. In addition, men are more likely to
be displaced from the family home, to unstable
accommodation or homelessness, itself a risk for
suicide.

(also this point I suppose)

Sixth, men tend to experience greater loneliness
than women, even where they are not socially
isolated. Their social networks are less supportive
and they have fewer meaningful friendships.

One area of significant social change for men’s
personal lives is the increase in men living alone in
mid-life. Fewer middle-aged men than women were
living alone in 1984, but by 2007, men had caught
up. Among people of working age, men are more
likely than women to live by themselves. Of those
men who do live alone, most have been in a coresidential
partnership at some stage, a significant
minority have been in multiple partnerships, and a
significant proportion have non-residential children.
So-called 'absent fathers' have been linked to the
rise in lone parent families and divorce or
separation; when fathers come to live in different
households, there can be a reduction in contact
with children. The ‘never partnered’ middle aged
men are considerably more economically
disadvantaged than their female counterparts,
though this finding relates mainly to those men in
later mid-life. Analysis of Scottish Household Survey
data suggests that rates of solo-living are higher
among middle-aged men who are socially and
economically disadvantaged, and that they are also
more likely to live alone than are women of the
same age in the same areas.

While living alone does not equate with being
lonely, there are aspects of living alone which
suggest that men in this position are at a
disadvantage: they are less economically active,
with a significantly larger proportion permanently
sick or disabled; more likely to report poorer health,
and to smoke and drink; and more likely to have
lower access to home ownership and higher use of
social housing. Crucially, men living alone may also
have less access to informal care and family
support; despite often being sociable, they are less
likely than their peers to have anyone with whom
they can discuss personal matters.

Men in mid-life have a narrowness of emotional
and social connections; they are overwhelmingly
dependent on a female partner as an ‘emotional
conduit’. However, in the current period, men are
far more likely to experience relationship
breakdown, not to have a single ‘stable’ marriage
or female partner, or to be living alone, with little
or no experience of how to cope emotionally on
their own, or of seeking help to fall back on should
they need it – at a time when they are under
considerable economic pressure. When
relationships break down, men lose a source of
masculine respect and identity, and can feel a sense
of shame and dishonour. In addition, where men
come to live in different households, their contact
with their children tends to be reduced. The loss of
the father role is a further loss of masculine respect
and identity, while separation from children
increases some men’s isolation. With the decline of
traditional male work and unemployment, working
class men have also lost an important source of
companionable relationships with other men.

It may also be mentioned in:

Gender, relationship breakdown and suicide risk: a systematic review of research in western countries
by
Rhiannon Evans, Jonathan Scourfield and Graham Moore

(same pdf) but I don't have time to look through it.

up for anything · 24-09-2012 2:14pm

Piliger wrote: »

Secondly they blame this 'gold standard' on the men, yet this standard is often a problem because it is applied to the men by the women in their lives.

Have you any statistics to base your comment about women applying this gold standard to the men in their lives?

I've been in the situation where my husband was out of work - his regular job was in construction and where he took on anything he could to make our ends meet. It didn't matter how much I supported him and boosted his morale. His misery came from within because he measured himself by his bread winning capabilities regardless of anything I could say to the contrary. He lost all interest in anything except his own un-admitted depression. I even rang his doctor asking him would he send out a letter saying that it was time for his annual check up so that he could speak to him and assess his mental state. Luckily he agreed to do this but when he went in he refused to admit to being depressed and so nothing could be done about it. Our marriage came to an abrupt end but the lead up to it was a few years of him perceiving his own inadequacy and taking it out on me and those closest to him. There is a time limit where another person can carry the burden of someone else's depression and survive themselves.

I know quite a few women who are being treated for depression which they have developed because living with someone who has no hope is not easy. It is not fair to blame women because the men in their lives commit suicide. Most of us do our best by our partners but in the end it is a purely a personal decision that they choose death over life.

Pawwed Rig · 24-09-2012 2:23pm

A small bit of number crunching
Population of UK - 62,262,000. 3,222 deaths for all men as a percentage = 0.005% of total population.
Population of Ireland - 4,588,252. 386 deaths for all men as a percentage = 0.008% of total population

Given that Ireland and the UK have similar cultures there is a much higher rate of suicide amongst Irish men than their UK counterparts. It would be interesting to see an analysis what it is about Ireland that accounts for the difference. Also I wonder has the rate increased in 2011 due to tougher economic times and will it increase further in 2012.

I think the study is slightly misleading in defining middle age as 30’s, 40’s and 50’s. I am not sure that any consensus would consider 30’s middle aged.

eviltwin · 24-09-2012 2:40pm

up for anything wrote: »

Have you any statistics to base your comment about women applying this gold standard to the men in their lives?

I've been in the situation where my husband was out of work - his regular job was in construction and where he took on anything he could to make our ends meet. It didn't matter how much I supported him and boosted his morale. His misery came from within because he measured himself by his bread winning capabilities regardless of anything I could say to the contrary. He lost all interest in anything except his own un-admitted depression. I even rang his doctor asking him would he send out a letter saying that it was time for his annual check up so that he could speak to him and assess his mental state. Luckily he agreed to do this but when he went in he refused to admit to being depressed and so nothing could be done about it. Our marriage came to an abrupt end but the lead up to it was a few years of him perceiving his own inadequacy and taking it out on me and those closest to him. There is a time limit where another person can carry the burden of someone else's depression and survive themselves.

I know quite a few women who are being treated for depression which they have developed because living with someone who has no hope is not easy. It is not fair to blame women because the men in their lives commit suicide. Most of us do our best by our partners but in the end it is a purely a personal decision that they choose death over life.

Thank you for posting this.

I am coming from the opposite of you in that I am a woman who has suffered from depression for a few years. I tried suicide in 09 and while I am in a much better place today its still a battle. My husband has been great and really helped but I have seen the toll my problems have had on him, its only now I can really see that with any clarity but its had a huge impact on his overall health.

Looking after someone with depression is a full time job, more so if you feel they might just be at risk of taking their own life. Its not easy and anyone living with a depressed person needs support just as much as their loved one.

We all need to take responsibility for our actions, as depressed as I was, as ill as I was it was ME who made the choice to keep things to myself, I made the decision that I didn't want to live. Blaming my family and friends who tried their best with the limited help they could access would only make things worse had I been successful. None of what was wrong in my life was anyone's fault, no one was to know how I would react to things.

All suicides are a tragedy and sadly they are becoming more frequent in a time when we are seeing a drop in services. We all need to talk talk and talk, be there for people we know who are down, check in with them etc but if they do decide to exit this world that is their choice and theirs alone.

iptba · 24-09-2012 3:40pm

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

I think the study is slightly misleading in defining middle age as 30’s, 40’s and 50’s. I am not sure that any consensus would consider 30’s middle aged.

Maybe. But it is often seen as a problem affecting "young people" and it's debatable whether people in their 30s should necessarily be bracketed in that category either.

In the UK, certainly in the past, a lot of people got married in their 20s and then started having children within the next few years while in Ireland it would have been a bit later so perhaps there is a difference there.

iptba · 24-09-2012 3:45pm

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

A small bit of number crunching
Population of UK - 62,262,000. 3,222 deaths for all men as a percentage = 0.005% of total population.
Population of Ireland - 4,588,252. 386 deaths for all men as a percentage = 0.008% of total population

Given that Ireland and the UK have similar cultures there is a much higher rate of suicide amongst Irish men than their UK counterparts. It would be interesting to see an analysis what it is about Ireland that accounts for the difference.

Yes, it would be interesting

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Also I wonder has the rate increased in 2011 due to tougher economic times and will it increase further in 2012.

You could be right.

Here's a recent study from the BMJ:

Suicides associated with the 2008-10 economic recession in England: time trend analysis.

Barr B, Taylor-Robinson D, Scott-Samuel A, McKee M, Stuckler D.
Source

BMJ. 2012 Aug 13;345:e5142. doi: 10.1136/bmj.e5142.

Department of Public Health and Policy, University of Liverpool, Liverpool L69
3GB UK.

Abstract

OBJECTIVE:
To determine whether English regions worst affected by the economic recession in the United Kingdom in 2008-10 have had the greatest increases in suicides.

DESIGN:
Time trend analysis comparing the actual number of suicides with those that would be expected if pre-recession trends had continued. Multivariate regression models quantified the association between changes in unemployment (based on claimant data) and suicides (based on data from the National Clinical Health Outcomes Database).

SETTING:
93 English regions, based on the Nomenclature of Territorial Units Statistics level 3 groupings of local authorities at county level and groups of unitary local authorities.

PARTICIPANTS:
Men and women with a record of death from suicide or injury of undetermined cause in 2000-10.

MAIN OUTCOME MEASURE:
Number of excess suicides during the economic recession (2008-10).

RESULTS:
Between 2008 and 2010, we found 846 (95% confidence interval 818 to 877) more suicides among men than would have been expected based on historical trends, and 155 (121 to 189) more suicides among women. Historically, short term yearly fluctuations in unemployment have been associated with annual changes in suicides among men but not among women. We estimated that each 10% increase in the number of unemployed men was significantly associated with a 1.4% (0.5% to 2.3%) increase in male suicides. These findings suggest that about two fifths of the recent increase in suicides among men (increase of 329 suicides, 126 to 532) during the 2008-10 recession can be attributed to rising unemployment.

CONCLUSION:
The study provides evidence linking the recent increase in suicides in England with the financial crisis that began in 2008. English regions with the largest rises in unemployment have had the largest increases in suicides, particularly among men.

PMID: 22893569 [PubMed - in process] PMCID: PMC3419273

Reku · 24-09-2012 11:08pm

eviltwin wrote: »

Thank you for posting this.

I am coming from the opposite of you in that I am a woman who has suffered from depression for a few years. I tried suicide in 09 and while I am in a much better place today its still a battle. My husband has been great and really helped but I have seen the toll my problems have had on him, its only now I can really see that with any clarity but its had a huge impact on his overall health.

Looking after someone with depression is a full time job, more so if you feel they might just be at risk of taking their own life. Its not easy and anyone living with a depressed person needs support just as much as their loved one.

We all need to take responsibility for our actions, as depressed as I was, as ill as I was it was ME who made the choice to keep things to myself, I made the decision that I didn't want to live. Blaming my family and friends who tried their best with the limited help they could access would only make things worse had I been successful. None of what was wrong in my life was anyone's fault, no one was to know how I would react to things.

All suicides are a tragedy and sadly they are becoming more frequent in a time when we are seeing a drop in services. We all need to talk talk and talk, be there for people we know who are down, check in with them etc but if they do decide to exit this world that is their choice and theirs alone.

This is something I don't think many of the charities consider, they go on about how we should talk to people about our problems but sometimes all that achieves is spreading the pain around. It might work for others but I just found it makes me feel even worse knowing the pain I cause others by letting them inside my head.
Better that I suffer alone IMO, 1 is the lowest of numbers after all => the lesser of evils.

up for anything · 24-09-2012 11:39pm

Reku wrote: »

This is something I don't think many of the charities consider, they go on about how we should talk to people about our problems but sometimes all that achieves is spreading the pain around. It might work for others but I just found it makes me feel even worse knowing the pain I cause others by letting them inside my head.
Better that I suffer alone IMO, 1 is the lowest of numbers after all => the lesser of evils.

Talking about problems does help, if only to let a bit of steam off. I believe that there are two reasons more men than women take their own lives.

Firstly, women tend to talk more openly to their friend about things that affect them such as lack of money, problems with bills, too much/too little/bad sex, problems with the children, with work, with the car... most of us talk about anything and everything with at least one other person in our lives other than our partner. It relieves a little pressure and helps to make us realise that we are not alone in whatever our problem or problems are, which while it doesn't help the problem, helps the feelings of panic or desperation. For me, anyway, just the fact that someone else knows that I'm 'suicidal' because I can't find the money for the car insurance/Santa or one of the millions of things I have to fund. It doesn't make it any better for me but it can ease that awful knot of sheer anxiety and fear in my chest just knowing that I'm not alone in the world with my problem.

Most men don't seem to have that release. It's like they fear that people including their nearest and dearest will find them less 'manly' if they admit to worries.

The second reason, in my opinion, is that most women are constantly needed. Their children need them, elderly parents need them, their friends need them. Being needed is a powerful reason to stay alive even if it's one of the reasons for contemplating suicide. Committing suicide for many women isn't an option because the guilt of letting down so many people that need you by killing yourself would kill you before you could act on it. Men seem to see suicide as an option whereby they free the people in their lives and don't see it as a destructive action towards those same people.

Maybe I'm talking a load of old cobblers but it makes sense to me.

Cedrus · 25-09-2012 12:05am

It IS good to talk, but the problem is we don't know how or what to talk about, the education campaigns need to be more informative.
I was diagnosed with depression years ago and my first reaction was **** off I'm not mentally ill! My GP gave me tablets which sorted me in two ways, until I was a bit better, I was able to feel that it was just a chemical imbalance, and as I improved I learnt that depression wasn't some kind of life sentence. I had no clue because I knew noone who had suffered depression, or so I thought but I found out later that several friends had similar experiences. If I had known back then what I know now I wouldn't have dug myself into the hole that I found myself in.

Phat Cat · 25-09-2012 2:02am

up for anything wrote: »

Talking about problems does help, if only to let a bit of steam off. I believe that there are two reasons more men than women take their own lives.

Firstly, women tend to talk more openly to their friend about things that affect them such as lack of money, problems with bills, too much/too little/bad sex, problems with the children, with work, with the car... most of us talk about anything and everything with at least one other person in our lives other than our partner. It relieves a little pressure and helps to make us realise that we are not alone in whatever our problem or problems are, which while it doesn't help the problem, helps the feelings of panic or desperation. For me, anyway, just the fact that someone else knows that I'm 'suicidal' because I can't find the money for the car insurance/Santa or one of the millions of things I have to fund. It doesn't make it any better for me but it can ease that awful knot of sheer anxiety and fear in my chest just knowing that I'm not alone in the world with my problem.

Most men don't seem to have that release. It's like they fear that people including their nearest and dearest will find them less 'manly' if they admit to worries.

The second reason, in my opinion, is that most women are constantly needed. Their children need them, elderly parents need them, their friends need them. Being needed is a powerful reason to stay alive even if it's one of the reasons for contemplating suicide. Committing suicide for many women isn't an option because the guilt of letting down so many people that need you by killing yourself would kill you before you could act on it. Men seem to see suicide as an option whereby they free the people in their lives and don't see it as a destructive action towards those same people.

Maybe I'm talking a load of old cobblers but it makes sense to me.

Your first point is absolutely spot on but the second was a load of old cobblers like you implied.

Saying that women are needed more then men is absolutely ridiculous and attitudes like that are part of them problem why male suicide rate is alarmingly high. It's essential over analysing the weakness of men & weighing their worth in society and that's a very dangerous precedence to be setting. Even more so in this day and age of high unemployment, especially in traditionally male dominated sectors, plus the whole family court structure being geared towards women and limiting men's access to their children

Any suicide, whether it is male or female, young or old, is a tragedy, but suicide on this island is mainly a killer of men......that's just a cold hard fact. This isn't a new development either as it's been happening for decades and we really need to get a proper perspective on male suicide in Irish society and stop overlooking the obvious causes time and time again.

Sleepy · 25-09-2012 9:43am

If you look at the old "men are from mars, women are from venus" pop-psychology, talking about problems isn't something most men see as any use: to the typical male mind a problem needs a solution and empathy isn't a solution. Whereas, the traditional female mind values that empathy more than a solution.

It's gross generalisation but based on the number of times I've upset female friends by suggesting potential solutions to problems instead of empathising with them about how awful their problem is, I'd wager there's a kernel of truth in it...

up for anything · 25-09-2012 11:51am

Phat Cat wrote: »

Your first point is absolutely spot on but the second was a load of old cobblers like you implied.

Saying that women are needed more then men is absolutely ridiculous and attitudes like that are part of them problem why male suicide rate is alarmingly high. It's essential over analysing the weakness of men & weighing their worth in society and that's a very dangerous precedence to be setting. Even more so in this day and age of high unemployment, especially in traditionally male dominated sectors, plus the whole family court structure being geared towards women and limiting men's access to their children

Any suicide, whether it is male or female, young or old, is a tragedy, but suicide on this island is mainly a killer of men......that's just a cold hard fact. This isn't a new development either as it's been happening for decades and we really need to get a proper perspective on male suicide in Irish society and stop overlooking the obvious causes time and time again.

You've taken me up very wrongly and what I said was not ridiculous. I wasn't saying that men aren't needed. Far from it. I am saying that take away their role as provider and they think/feel they aren't needed. There is a big difference.

When my ex and I were together, we both had our places in the family. I stayed and home and organised everybody including him. He went out and brought home the bacon. As the bacon went from the whole pig down to a few streaky rashers so did his sense of self worth. As it went from a couple of pounds of streakys to a few rashers a week - I became more needed to hold it all together but he allowed himself to wallow. I couldn't afford to wallow. The children still needed to fed, washed, got out the door to school. The house still needed to be cleaned, laundry done, the paperwork worked, the teachers liased with, the doctor gone to, A&E visited on a regular basis. Our house was still unfinished because the money had run out but there was lots that could be done that didn't cost huge money only time which he had lots of. He could have taken a share of sorting out the kids, finances, and our life in general but instead he sat in his armchair when he wasn't out bouncing, snarling at any of us that crossed his line of vision to the tv.

He could have said to himself, "I am worth something and I will prove it". Instead he let himself get to a point where he couldn't do anything about it except carp and criticise and bemoan the days when he worked in a job he loved. He could have made himself be needed and feel needed but instead he chose to give up.

There were times when I'd have loved to have not woken up in the morning, not bothered getting the kids out to school or bothered making lunch, cooking dinner, throwing a load in the washing machine, asking the bank for another interest only period (at a time when it hadn't become the norm), trying to work out how I could give the ESB enough money to avoid being cut off and still be able to put food on the table for the family. There were times when I considered suicide as a way out but I couldn't, because I couldn't - when I thought about the relief it would be to get out of a hellish situation, I also had to think about who would take over my role in everyone's life and the answer was that there was no one who I could trust to do it so I had to keep on doing it myself whether I liked it or not.

Men seem to feel that by taking themselves out of the equation that things will be better for those they leave behind. Yeah right! The rage, the guilt, the sadness, the feeling of inadequacy, everything that a suicide serves up to those left is much better than them hanging around doing something to help themselves. (I'm not saying that this is every case but some.)

My ex husband told me, at what was very close to the end of our 30 year relationship, that it was best if he committed suicide because then the house would be paid for and the kids and I looked after. Thanks very fucking much. Is that how he felt I would feel. "Hey kids, daddy killed himself so we're be on the pig's back. Isn't it great? What'll we do to celebrate?" :rolleyes:

He has as much access to our children as he wants but he doesn't avail of it, in spite of the I love my children so much nonsense talk that he comes out with. If I was a different person I'd have hung him out to dry long since for his failure to take up his access, his failure to pay maintenance for them, his failure to put them before himself and the fact that they are forced to justify to themselves his failure to behave like a decent father to them.

So don't try and give me your load of old cobblers about family court structure and the few rights of men. If this is not a new development as you assert above and has been happening for decades, don't look to women as the cause because for lots of those decades women had next to no rights in this country and men had all the power. You need to look a bit deeper for the reasons as to why so many men feel that they can just opt out of life.

Phat Cat · 25-09-2012 12:40pm

up for anything wrote: »

You've taken me up very wrongly and what I said was not ridiculous. I wasn't saying that men aren't needed. Far from it. I am saying that take away their role as provider and they think/feel they aren't needed. There is a big difference.

You clearly stated that, in your opinion, most women were "constantly needed" and that's why far less commit suicide then men. You also went on to imply that children, elderly parents & friends need women to stay alive more then they need men. That was a totally ridiculous and utterly reckless thing to post on a thread about male suicide whether you want to believe it or not.

up for anything wrote: »

don't try and give me your load of old cobblers about family court structure and the few rights of men. If this is not a new development as you assert above and has been happening for decades, don't look to women as the cause because for lots of those decades women had next to no rights in this country and men had all the power. You need to look a bit deeper for the reasons as to why so many men feel that they can just opt out of life.

Where did I say that women were the cause of male suicide?

Also your observation of the family court structure in this country is obviously completely biased coming from a female perspective. In your opinion we have a balanced and fair system between men & women where we all share equal rights across the board? That's a totally blinkered argument that holds absolutely no weight no matter what way you want to look at it as it's simply not the case.

up for anything · 25-09-2012 1:07pm

Phat Cat wrote: »

You clearly stated that, in your opinion, most women were "constantly needed" and that's why far less commit suicide then men. You also went on to imply that children, elderly parents & friends need women to stay alive more then they need men. That was a totally ridiculous and utterly reckless thing to post on a thread about male suicide whether you want to believe it or not.

Where did I say that women were the cause of male suicide?

Also your observation of the family court structure in this country is obviously completely biased coming from a female perspective. In your opinion we have a balanced and fair system between men & women where we all share equal rights across the board? That's a totally blinkered argument that holds absolutely no weight no matter what way you want to look at it as it's simply not the case.

In my opinion, women feel constantly needed, not that they are more needed. Sorry, I write these posts too fast. I was reeling off a list of people who most women feel need them. The fact that they feel needed means that they put themselves in a position where they are needed.

Apologies for saying that you said that women were the cause of male suicide but that is what I inferred from your comments and not what you said. I hold no opinion on family courts in this country and perhaps you wrongly inferred that from my posts. I have never been in one, and only know about them from what I read on internet discussion threads and those of my friends, both male and female, who have been through them.

If a mod wants to delete my posts here, feel free. I wouldn't want anything I have said to be the straw that broke the camel's back.

eviltwin · 25-09-2012 1:25pm

up for anything wrote: »

In my opinion, women feel constantly needed, not that they are more needed. Sorry, I write these posts too fast. I was reeling off a list of people who most women feel need them. The fact that they feel needed means that they put themselves in a position where they are needed.

Apologies for saying that you said that women were the cause of male suicide but that is what I inferred from your comments and not what you said. I hold no opinion on family courts in this country and perhaps you wrongly inferred that from my posts. I have never been in one, and only know about them from what I read on internet discussion threads and those of my friends, both male and female, who have been through them.

If a mod wants to delete my posts here, feel free. I wouldn't want anything I have said to be the straw that broke the camel's back.

I think there is some merit in what you say although I know when I got to the point where I wanted to end it all I wasn't really thinking of all the people who needed me, in fact I thought I was doing them a favour.

I think as well women are just better at coping, we tend to just get on with things, we'll talk about it and complain about it etc but we generally seem to be able to shoulder greater burdens than some men.

Piliger · 25-09-2012 2:55pm

up for anything wrote: »

Have you any statistics to base your comment about women applying this gold standard to the men in their lives?

Actually I have exactly the same amount of statistics that the creators of this report have about the gold standard.

It is not fair to blame women because the men in their lives commit suicide. Most of us do our best by our partners but in the end it is a purely a personal decision that they choose death over life.

Have you any statistics to back that claim up ? or is it just more misandrous man bashing ?

Piliger · 25-09-2012 2:58pm

Phat Cat wrote: »

Your first point is absolutely spot on but the second was a load of old cobblers like you implied.

Saying that women are needed more then men is absolutely ridiculous and attitudes like that are part of them problem why male suicide rate is alarmingly high. It's essential over analysing the weakness of men & weighing their worth in society and that's a very dangerous precedence to be setting. Even more so in this day and age of high unemployment, especially in traditionally male dominated sectors, plus the whole family court structure being geared towards women and limiting men's access to their children

Any suicide, whether it is male or female, young or old, is a tragedy, but suicide on this island is mainly a killer of men......that's just a cold hard fact. This isn't a new development either as it's been happening for decades and we really need to get a proper perspective on male suicide in Irish society and stop overlooking the obvious causes time and time again.

Agreed. Unfortunately most of the women who post in this group do so only to denigrate men and belittle them.

corsica · 25-09-2012 4:27pm

Have read this thread as have experience of just this thing, unfortunately. Have to say though that poster "Up for Anything" is the one who is getting "bashed". Where has she been misandrous? Why the automatic put-down and hostility from some posters? I agree with so much of what she has said, and from my own point of view also know it to be spot on. This is a subject that should be discussed from all angles, not just the ones that fit your preconceived notions.

Quorum · 25-09-2012 4:35pm

Phat Cat wrote: »

Any suicide, whether it is male or female, young or old, is a tragedy, but suicide on this island is mainly a killer of men......that's just a cold hard fact. This isn't a new development either as it's been happening for decades and we really need to get a proper perspective on male suicide in Irish society and stop overlooking the obvious causes time and time again.

Isn't suicide being predominantly male observed worldwide?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_and_suicide

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate

Piliger · 25-09-2012 5:07pm

corsica wrote: »

Have read this thread as have experience of just this thing, unfortunately. Have to say though that poster "Up for Anything" is the one who is getting "bashed". Where has she been misandrous? Why the automatic put-down and hostility from some posters? I agree with so much of what she has said, and from my own point of view also know it to be spot on. This is a subject that should be discussed from all angles, not just the ones that fit your preconceived notions.

Maybe it's because we are tired of women telling us they know all about men, but we know nothing about women; telling us that women are so great at talking, feeling, mothering, sharing, enduring, multi tasking, while men are sh1te at pretty much everything.

I have seen no automatic put downs by anyone except the female commenters. All posts in this thread have been based on what people say and claim. Maybe ... just maybe the problem is that your point of view is a woman's point of view and you simply don't understand men a fraction as much as you think you do.

up for anything · 25-09-2012 6:04pm

I said I stay out of this thread but when you accuse me unfoundedly of misandrist man bashing I had to reply.

Piliger wrote: »

Actually I have exactly the same amount of statistics that the creators of this report have about the gold standard.

"men compare themselves against a ‘gold standard’ which prizes power, control and invincibility. When they believe they aren’t meeting this standard they feel a sense of shame, which can lead them to have suicidal thoughts"

There are no statistics quoted in the report so you have exactly the same amount. None! Maybe that is your point but I'm not getting it.

It is not fair to blame women because the men in their lives commit suicide. Most of us do our best by our partners but in the end it is a purely a personal decision that they choose death over life.

Piliger wrote: »

Have you any statistics to back that claim up ? or is it just more misandrous man bashing ?

That is not the sort of comment that needs statistics to back it up. If you really believe that there is are a significant amount of women out there who would drive their male partners to suicide even unknowingly, or believe that there are that many female misandrists in this country who are just out to denigrate and belittle men, than it's a nasty world you live in and I'm glad I'm not part of it. Suicide is a personal action even when the person has a strong reason for wanting to cut short their lives.

I wasn't aware that I indulging in misandrist man bashing but I guess judging by what you said below in the first quote that your view of women has been skewed by some personal experience.

Piliger wrote: »

Agreed. Unfortunately most of the women who post in this group do so only to denigrate men and belittle them.

Speaking for myself, I didn't say that men were bad at all of these things you are fed up of women telling you that you are. In fact, most men are very good at them when they get down to it, except perhaps sharing their emotions in way that relives pressure build up.

As for automatic put downs by posters. I see none in this thread. Except for those posters quoting articles or statistics pretty much every post is made from a subjective point of view.

It would be more useful if instead of ranting about misandry and your preconceived notions about woman, and instead help us to understand men that little bit better.

Piliger wrote: »

Maybe it's because we are tired of women telling us they know all about men, but we know nothing about women; telling us that women are so great at talking, feeling, mothering, sharing, enduring, multi tasking, while men are sh1te at pretty much everything.

I have seen no automatic put downs by anyone except the female commenters. All posts in this thread have been based on what people say and claim. Maybe ... just maybe the problem is that your point of view is a woman's point of view and you simply don't understand men a fraction as much as you think you do.

Piliger · 26-09-2012 12:19am

up for anything wrote: »

It would be more useful if instead of ranting about misandry and your preconceived notions about woman, and instead help us to understand men that little bit better.

You don't seem to understand - this thread is not about helping you understand men. You clearly have a low view of them from some sad experience you may have had.

I really don't know what you think you are contributing to the discussion. You have no insight into men's behaviour. You clearly have no insight into men's life experience. You seem to have only one line of thought which is to put down men and their need to have equal rights, clearly from a biased position of being more interested in women's 'plight'.

Dr Galen · 26-09-2012 9:19am

Let's get this thread back On Topic please and thanks.

We're not here to talk about specific and personal examples, no matter how much sympathy/empathy we have for them. That sort of thing leads us down all sorts of sidetracks that never work out well.

Cheers

DrG

Samaritans: Why 3,000 middle-aged men die by suicide each year (in the UK & Ireland)

Comments