How to revive the Irish language.

opti0nal · 23-08-2012 09:13PM

MysticalRain wrote: »

If I had a Euro for every webpage on the internet that won't accept my own Irish name because it has an O' in front of the surname...

That apostrophe could cause a nasty SQL error if not properly escaped.

Of course, the correct form would be Ó rather than O'. That's problem of a different character.

RandomName2 · 24-08-2012 06:36PM

Seanchai wrote: »

the princely sum of €1 to her credit/debit card as a way to verify that she is who she says she is. [...]. A non-refundable deduction, mind you.

Incredible. Discrimination pure and simple. No wonder so many Irish speakers have been beaten into submission. Every day there is some battle against intolerant English monoglots to assert your identity and not have their one imposed on you.

Are our taxes to fund Irish at um... € 1.2 BILLION a year non-refundable as well?

Yup.

Source Note that funding for teaching Irish has increased since this article, although Gaelteacht funding has gone down

An Coilean · 24-08-2012 08:34PM

RandomName2 wrote: »

Are our taxes to fund Irish at um... € 1.2 BILLION a year non-refundable as well?

Yup.

Source Note that funding for teaching Irish has increased since this article, although Gaelteacht funding has gone down

It would be interesting to see an actual source for the figures as well as a break down of where it is spent, by the way, why has the funding for the teaching of Irish increased?

opti0nal · 24-08-2012 09:43PM

An Coilean wrote: »

It would be interesting to see an actual source for the figures as well as a break down of where it is spent, by the way, why has the funding for the teaching of Irish increased?

Umm, Perhaps click on the link in the post, labelled 'Source'?

That's a shocking figure for so little value and it does not include the money spent on mandatory Irish language signs in overwhelmingly English-speaking areas, nor obligatory public services in Irish for people who grew up speaking perfectly good English but choose to use Irish instead.

Latest, I've noticed is Irish-language safety warnings on Dart station platforms. Not much use if on if an English-speaker stands on an 'Irish' section of the platform. One would think that passenger safety should take priority over the ambitions of the Irish-speaking minority? But, no.

An Coilean · 24-08-2012 09:55PM

opti0nal wrote: »

Latest, I've noticed is Irish-language safety warnings on Dart station platforms. Not much use if on if an English-speaker stands on an 'Irish' section of the platform. One would think that passenger safety should take priority over the ambitions of the Irish-speaking minority? But, no.

Wait, There are no signs in English? There are? So how exactly dose the inclusion of Irish signs as well make the station less safe for passengers?

Truman Burbank · 24-08-2012 09:55PM

kenmc wrote: »

Thread is too long to read. Has anyone asked "why" rather than "how" to revive the irish language? Terminal is terminal, you can extend it a bit with a bit of life support, but at the end of the day death will come. Sooner the better as far as I'm concerned, replace it with a useful language, that you can actually use to communicate outside of a few pockets of curiosity living museum.

The dust has gathered. Take an immediate left through the main revolving doors in Tallaght Library. Irish language novels can be found under, and amongst, 'Foreign Languages' on the far wall.

Cú Giobach · 24-08-2012 10:08PM

opti0nal wrote: »

Latest, I've noticed is Irish-language safety warnings on Dart station platforms. Not much use if on if an English-speaker stands on an 'Irish' section of the platform. One would think that passenger safety should take priority over the ambitions of the Irish-speaking minority? But, no.

OMG!! What about all those poor non-English or Irish speaking tourists or the blind :eek:, they are all risking their lives travelling on the Dart. Something must be done now!!! <rips hair out in anguish>. :eek:

An Coilean wrote: »

Wait, There are no signs in English? There are? So how exactly dose the inclusion of Irish signs as well make the station less safe for passengers?

Typical illogicality from certain people, someone was moaning recently about tourist signs in Irish, now that person was never annoyed when there were no signs at all, but now moans because they are in Irish only.
Put up ten warning signs in English nobody moans, put up ten in English and ten in Irish then someone will moan saying something stupid like above. :rolleyes:

Seanchai · 24-08-2012 11:18PM

opti0nal wrote: »

How come you have to battle with English 'monoglots' every day. Do you live, perhaps, in England?

I said "English speaking". The fact that you cannot understand the difference between somebody being English speaking and being English really reflects poorly on your understanding of the English language that you claim to love, something which is one of the more ironic collective traits of the haters of Irish.

All the people that I know who have good English are positive towards Irish (and all languages), if not fluent in Irish. It's the less educated who hate another language.

Seanchai · 24-08-2012 11:25PM

RandomName2 wrote: »

Are our taxes to fund Irish at um... € 1.2 BILLION a year non-refundable as well?

"Billions" my eye. Get a grip. I'd be more concerned about the "billions" which are used to fund Cromwell's language. But one never hears the Irish haters like yourself highlighting the money wasted on, to take one example of many, giving immigrants free classes in the English language, classes which they are forced to attend as a condition of their visas. Nope, not a word. My taxes.

Oh, and please stop wasting my taxes sending me literature in your English language.

Julius Seizure · 24-08-2012 11:28PM

opti0nal wrote: »

That apostrophe could cause a nasty SQL error if not properly escaped.

Of course, the correct form would be Ó rather than O'. That's problem of a different character.

Odd, My passport has Ó butI've given in to just using O' ... when I type Ó I get an ampersand code or &áiíouú212 something like that but never had any problems with O'.

Seanchai · 24-08-2012 11:47PM

opti0nal wrote: »

How do you know they're monoglots? Is it because they don't speak Irish?

Because they, the Irish haters like yourself, struggle so much with their native language of English that it's highly improbable, to put it mildly, that they'd be able to master a language that is not their native one.

Stained Class · 24-08-2012 11:48PM

The Irish language is dead.

Get used to it.

It's kept artificially alive by the State because of about 2 dozen fanatics who refuse to believe the truth.

Still, it's worth every penny of all the taxes I pay.......

Can I get the State to pay for any hobby I might want to take up?

Shure, It's a great ould setup.

dubhthach · 24-08-2012 11:54PM

As far as I know the bulk of that cost is actually in Teachers salary. Even if you banned Irish in the morning you wouldn't actually see much of a saving, unless you are proposing cutting teaching hours at the same time? No doubt knowing the unions though if you did cut hours they would fight tooth and nail to retain the same levels of payment.

Seanchai · 24-08-2012 11:56PM

Stained Class wrote: »

The Irish language is dead.

Given that you clearly don't speak it - indeed, you're clearly struggling with English - it's probably as "dead" as Chinese is to you. That's your problem, not ours.

Stained Class wrote: »

It's kept artificially alive by the State because of about 2 dozen fanatics who refuse to believe the truth.

Nice to see you're suddenly not a fanatic, Stained Glass, despite your numerous quite fanatical comments expressing hatred for the Irish language in Ireland. Well done.

Stained Class wrote: »

Still, it's worth every penny of all the taxes I pay....... Shure, It's a great ould setup.

Considering it is Irish speakers who are party to subsidising your hobbies at present, be they walking in state-financed parks or getting subsidised low motor taxes to drive silly cars or getting gardaí to police your silly pompous hobbies and prevent the rest of us from driving on the road, you really haven't considered the coherency of your "argument" very well here.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 24-08-2012 11:58PM

Seanchai wrote: »

I said "English speaking". The fact that you cannot understand the difference between somebody being English speaking and being English really reflects poorly on your understanding of the English language that you claim to love, something which is one of the more ironic collective traits of the haters of Irish.

All the people that I know who have good English are positive towards Irish (and all languages), if not fluent in Irish. It's the less educated who hate another language.

You also said, "intolerant English monoglots." This can only refer to people from England who speak one language.

I'm not anti-Irish, nor am I pro-Irish. But I really hate this arrogant I-speak-Irish-so-I'm-better-than-you atitude. Especailly when they seem to think that, because I speak very little Irish, my English must automatically be of a similarly poor standard. (General comment, not nessecailry aimed at you specifcially.)

Seanchai wrote: »

Because they, the Irish haters like yourself, struggle so much with their native language of English that it's highly improbable, to put it mildly, that they'd be able to master a language that is not their native one.

On second thoughts, maybe I am aiming it at you. I speak French, German, Swedish, Danish and Norwegian to various different standards, but could hold a basic conversation in all of them. I could even have a crack at Dutch, considering the similarities between it and German.

But hey - I don't speak Irish. So I'm an ingornant monoglot.

Stained Class · 25-08-2012 12:10AM

Seanchai wrote: »

Given that you clearly don't speak it - indeed, you're clearly struggling with English - it's probably as "dead" as Chinese is to you. That's your problem, not ours.

It's the problem of everyone who pays taxes on this island & I'm as Irish as you BTW.

Nice to see you're suddenly not a fanatic, Stained Glass, despite your numerous quite fanatical comments expressing hatred for the Irish language in Ireland. Well done.

Looks like you have a spelling/comprehension problem too.

Considering it is Irish speakers who are party to subsidising your hobbies at present, be they walking in state-financed parks or getting subsidised low motor taxes to drive silly cars or getting gardaí to police your silly pompous hobbies and prevent the rest of us from driving on the road, you really haven't considered the coherency of your "argument" very well here.

I think I have.

Seanchai · 25-08-2012 12:16AM

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

You also said, "intolerant English monoglots." This can only refer to people from England who speak one language.

I'm not anti-Irish, nor am I pro-Irish. But I really hate this arrogant I-speak-Irish-so-I'm-better-than-you atitude. Especailly when they seem to think that, because I speak very little Irish, my English must automatically be of a similarly poor standard. (General comment, not nessecailry aimed at you specifcially.)

On second thoughts, maybe I am aiming it at you. I speak French, German, Swedish, Danish and Norwegian to various different standards, but could hold a basic conversation in all of them. I could even have a crack at Dutch, considering the similarities between it and German.

But hey - I don't speak Irish. So I'm an ingornant monoglot.

I could hold "a basic conversation" in numerous languages, and could familiarise myself with "basic conversation" language of any language in a couple of days. It is no great shakes. Fluency is a rather different matter. Ergo, I'm not clear what the point of that comment is.

Secondly, it really is your problem that you feel that people who speak Irish have an "I am better than you" attitude. People speak Irish better than me. I learn from them. People speak English better than me. I learn from them. No problem. Irish speakers could, indeed, have an "I'm better than you" attitude regarding their linguistic intelligence and unless you can speak proficiently in another language then equal respect in this regard would be withheld. And rightly so. This is the way it works in most things in life. Why you think people who put the effort into mastering another skill should not think they are better in that regard than somebody who doesn't is the mystery here. Likewise, for musicians and, well, people in almost every other walk of life. It's called ego, everybody has one. Why you single out Irish speakers is beyond me.

Personally, however, in the real world I have only encountered encouragement and praise from native and first language Irish speakers. Then again, I have no chip on my shoulder about the language and I'm always open to improving in it (just as I am in English and French). I don't care about any "humiliations" along the way because there is constant improvement on my part.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 25-08-2012 01:00AM

Seanchai wrote: »

I could hold "a basic conversation" in numerous languages, and could familiarise myself with "basic conversation" language of any language in a couple of days. It is no great shakes. Fluency is a rather different matter. Ergo, I'm not clear what the point of that comment is.

To point out that people who don't care for Irish can learn another language. I never claim to master any of them, but they idea that in dislike of Irish means you can't learn another language is, to put it politely, bullsh1t.

Secondly, it really is your problem that you feel that people who speak Irish have an "I am better than you" attitude. People speak Irish better than me. I learn from them. People speak English better than me. I learn from them. No problem. Irish speakers could, indeed, have an "I'm better than you" attitude regarding their linguistic intelligence and unless you can speak proficiently in another language then equal respect in this regard would be withheld. And rightly so. This is the way it works in most things in life. Why you think people who put the effort into mastering another skill should not think they are better in that regard than somebody who doesn't is the mystery here. Likewise, for musicians and, well, people in almost every other walk of life. It's called ego, everybody has one. Why you single out Irish speakers is beyond me.

I don't have a probelm with it, I just dislike arrogance. And it is not confined to linguisitic intelligence in a lot of cases. It's like they're trying to "out-Irish" me on a cultural level. Again, not aimed at you specifically, but I have expereinced it.

That said, it can be seen from the condescending remarks from yourself and Cu Giobach in this very thread. Are they really nessecary? Why the assumpation about the lack of English ability of people who don't like Irish? Specifically, "I said "English speaking". The fact that you cannot understand the difference between somebody being English speaking and being English really reflects poorly on your understanding of the English language that you claim to love, something which is one of the more ironic collective traits of the haters of Irish" despite the fact that the mistake was yours.

Seanchai · 25-08-2012 01:26AM

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

To point out that people who don't care for Irish can learn another language. I never claim to master any of them, but they idea that in dislike of Irish means you can't learn another language is, to put it politely, bullsh1t.

The actual point was, of course, that if somebody is struggling to master their native language - as is the typical case with the Irish haters - it's unlikely that they could master a second language. Stay with it.

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

I don't have a probelm with it, I just dislike arrogance.

This is disingenuous of you: you've certainly thanked numerous posts which display nothing short of unbridled arrogance against the Irish language.

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

It's like they're trying to "out-Irish" me on a cultural level.

If you have a deeper knowledge of the Irish language, then obviously you possess a deeper understanding of Irishness than somebody who does not have that knowledge. Other than it's inconvenient for your own limitations, why is this fact being disputed by you? For most identities on this planet, language is the window into their culture, outlook and history.

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Why the assumpation about the lack of English ability of people who don't like Irish?

It's not an assumption. The writing skills in English of the people here who express contempt and hate for the Irish language are, unsurprisingly, poor. Generally, people who allow their energy to be consumed by hate have lower intelligence.

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

despite the fact that the mistake was yours.

The mistake was not, of course, mine. Dictionary definition time. Monoglot = 'knowing only one language; monolingual: monoglot travelers.' Monoglot refers specifically to one's language. English = 'belonging or pertaining to, or spoken or written in, the English language.' English monoglot = It qualifies the only language which the monoglot speaks proficiently.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 25-08-2012 02:07AM

Seanchai wrote: »

The actual point was, of course, that if somebody is struggling to master their native language - as is the typical case with the Irish haters - it's unlikely that they could master a second language. Stay with it.

Correlation or causation? Or pure specualtion? Why is it specfic to "Irish haters"? How about people that just don't like the language and prefer a different one?

This is disingenuous of you: you've certainly thanked numerous posts which display nothing short of unbridled arrogance against the Irish language.

You'll need to point these out.

If you have a deeper knowledge of the Irish language, then obviously you possess a deeper understanding of Irishness than somebody who does not have that knowledge. Other than it's inconvenient for your own limitations, why is this fact being disputed by you? For most identities on this planet, language is the window into their culture, outlook and history.

I'll rephase what I said: it's like being more Irish than me somehow makes them a better person. It doesn't. What are my "limitations"? Or is this just a cheapshot?

It's not an assumption. The writing skills in English of the people here who express contempt and hate for the Irish language are, unsurprisingly, poor. Generally, people who allow their energy to be consumed by hate have lower intelligence.

I'm going to class myself here as not being an "Irish-hater", more of a neutral. I'm not sure if you class me as such or not. If so, can you please say why and tell me where my poor grasp of English lies?

If you do not class me as an Irish-hater, then fair enough. I can only speak for myself. But again, I don't see any direct cause of hating Irish on one's written english skills. There may be examples, but again, causation has to be established.

The mistake was not, of course, mine. Dictionary definition time. Monoglot = 'knowing only one language; monolingual: monoglot travelers.' Monoglot refers specifically to one's language. English = 'belonging or pertaining to, or spoken or written in, the English language.' English monoglot = It qualifies the only language which the monoglot speaks proficiently.

No it doesn't qualify. Unless you are referring to the language as being the monoglot.

English monoglot - English person who speaks one langauge.
English-speaking monoglot - Person who only speaks English.

The mistake is yours, as the use of the word "English" in the phrase "intolerant English monoglot" is refering to the characteristic of a person and not that of a language.

donegal_man · 25-08-2012 03:07AM

an langer wrote: »

....................................... So what if you had a bad time with 'school Irish'?! Gaeltacht people don't speak the ****ty school Irish, they are speakers of real life everyday Irish..................

And right there is why so many people of our generation have a problem with the language, it was taught to us as a "subject" not as a living practical language. I hope things have improved since I left school in 1987 although I doubt it.

opti0nal · 25-08-2012 04:08AM

An Coilean wrote: »

Wait, There are no signs in English? There are? So how exactly dose the inclusion of Irish signs as well make the station less safe for passengers?

On the surface of the platform, when you look down, there is a warning message in yellow lettering. Whether you see the English or Irish version depends on which part of the platform you are standing on when you look down. Some sections have English, some Irish, but not both at the same time.

So, if you stand in an Irish speaking section of the platform, say in Tara Street station, and you do not speak Irish, you will not see an important warning message in a language you can understand.

It makes no sense at all to use Irish on half the platform in a part of Dublin with no monoglot Irish speakers.

joseph brand · 25-08-2012 04:52AM

The Irish language is dying out because it's not needed. This whole thread, and the entire boards.ie forums, are written in English.

Why not try bringing back oil lamps? We used them a long time ago. Oh yeah, wind up cars, like in 1910. There must be more we could 'revive'. :rolleyes:

Cú Giobach · 25-08-2012 07:12AM

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

That said, it can be seen from the condescending remarks from yourself and Cu Giobach in this very thread. .

Give one example of me trying to "out Irish" someone, just one will do. I dare you.

opti0nal wrote: »

On the surface of the platform, when you look down, there is a warning message in yellow lettering. Whether you see the English or Irish version depends on which part of the platform you are standing on when you look down. Some sections have English, some Irish, but not both at the same time.

So, if you stand in an Irish speaking section of the platform, say in Tara Street station, and you do not speak Irish, you will not see an important warning message in a language you can understand.

It makes no sense at all to use Irish on half the platform in a part of Dublin with no monoglot Irish speakers.

The really funny thing about this post is that you are actually serious.

Mr Bean springs to mind when I imagine you using a rail network in another country and looking down befuddled at the big line painted a foot or two from the edge of the platform and wondering what it means because there is no English explaining why it's there, or walking nonchalantly along the rail line because there was no English sign telling you it can be rather rather dangerous. Thanks for the early morning giggle. You really should get out more.

opti0nal · 25-08-2012 08:29AM

Cú Giobach wrote: »

I imagine you using a rail network in another country and looking down befuddled at the big line painted a foot or two from the edge of the platform and wondering what it means because there is no English explaining why it's there,

By your reasoning, therefore it would be fair to say that Irish speakers should not have a problem with English-language signs in parts of the country where English is mostly spoken.

Cú Giobach · 25-08-2012 08:49AM

opti0nal wrote: »

By your reasoning, therefore it would be fair to say that Irish speakers should not have a problem with English-language signs in parts of the country where English is mostly spoken.

My reasoning?
I don't know if you are aware of it but all Irish speakers are bi-lingual in Irish and English.

opti0nal · 25-08-2012 08:51AM

Cú Giobach wrote: »

My reasoning?
I don't know if you are aware of it but all Irish speakers are bi-lingual in Irish and English.

...so we don't need signs in Irish.

Cú Giobach · 25-08-2012 09:05AM

opti0nal wrote: »

...so we don't need signs in Irish.

It really is amazing (and a little odd) for someone with an obsession such as yours not to know the reasons behind Irish language signage around the country.
Which includes among others, Irish is one of the official languages of the state and though the numbers are small people are entitled to have signage in their native language. Making the language visible is essential help revival, which a huge proportion of the population would like to see.

You don't seem to be defending your "Mr Beanish" type argument though, go on give it a try. Out of curiosity how do you know what is written in Irish on the platforms are actually warning signs, are you just guessing??

someuser905 · 25-08-2012 09:38AM

Cú Giobach wrote: »

It really is amazing (and a little odd) for someone with an obsession such as yours not to know the reasons behind Irish language signage around the country.
Which includes among others, Irish is one of the official languages of the state and though the numbers are small people are entitled to have signage in their native language. Making the language visible is essential help revival, which a huge proportion of the population would like to see.

You don't seem to be defending your "Mr Beanish" type argument though, go on give it a try. Out of curiosity how do you know what is written in Irish on the platforms are actually warning signs, are you just guessing??

no one cares about that culchie babble
let it go

Grayson · 25-08-2012 09:50AM

Seanchai wrote: »

Given that you clearly don't speak it - indeed, you're clearly struggling with English - it's probably as "dead" as Chinese is to you. That's your problem, not ours.

I remember reading, years ago, that there were more native cantonese speakers in ireland than Irish speakers.

And considering I get a chinese takeaway every so often I'm actually more likely to hear chinese than irish.

Currently there are 4.2 million people in ireland. 72,000 speak irish outside of the education system. that's just over 1.5% of the population.

There are 56k people who speak French in the home in ireland. Of them, 37,000 were born in ireland. That means there are half as many native irish french speakers in ireland than there are irish speakers.

According to the 2006 census there were 22k travellers in ireland. There were also 22k Irish speakers in the gaelteacht. The number of gaelteacht speakers equals the number of travellers. I don't see a campaign to have all road signs translated into Shelta.

This is after decades of "revival". Irish might not be officially dead but according to the criteria the UN use, it's critically endangered. And for all practical purposes it's dead.

And the only reason it's still being taught is because of politics and cultural nazis.

How to revive the Irish language.

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