Surely you cant do this in a democratic state!

blacklilly · 17-08-2012 08:06AM

keeffo2005 wrote: »

blacklilly wrote: »

What I'm comparing is human rights, obviously Ireland is relative to the majority of boards users therefore I'm using it as an example.
I am well aware that there is corruption, violence etc in SA, I'm commenting on what we would consider a basis right.
I also wouldn't consider myself politically correct but that's besides the point.
I saw the water cannons being used but Imagine how angry these men were if they still defied that , knowing the police were armed, knowing they would probably be shot at. What I'm saying is, we do not have to worry about that.
Also if I read every article, book, journal suggested by a boardsie I'd be a hermit.

Its difficult to explain what goes on in these strikes, its like sheep following the Shepard. It happens in all the strikes here, the union leaders should be held accountable.
From talking to workers here, they are afraid if they don't join in. They and their families will be targeted afterwards.

Just like the elections, its all intimidation. Just look what the ANCYL said about making the Western Cape ungovernable because it is run by the DA, now there is violent protests there although it is the best run Provence.

Same with this strike, its all intimidation and threats, if you join in you are screwed if you don't you are more screwed.

Watch SA for the next few months, the intimidation and clashes have started already with the 2013 elections coming up, there is no such thing as free and fair elections here either

I'm aware of the issues regarding government and elections in SA, that's my very point, we have freedom of speech, although it is frowned upon crossing a picket line here, you won't be killed for doing so or your family won't feel threatned.
Those people are all products of a very scewed , unjust societly which promotes violence and kills those who speak out.

I was just putting my own pov accross and how I felt saddened seeing this on the news, there is no progression in SA and you still have an entirely corrupt government which means there will be no real progression for a long time to come

vicwatson · 17-08-2012 11:58AM

I think it's mad they way when there is a strike in Ireland the strikers either sit in or stand around a metal barrel that they use as a fire at the entrance.

In South Africa, they dance and sing songs (with weapons in hand of course) :eek:

mike65 · 17-08-2012 11:59AM

South Africa sadly is probably Zimbabwe minus 10-15 years.

Richard Hillman · 17-08-2012 12:02PM

Casillas wrote: »

That's awful policing, all over the world you see police being attacked at protests, which is responded to without killing.

Take Belfast for an example, if a mob started hurling petrol bombs at the police, tear-gas, water cannons etc. would be used. The police in this instance in S.A. weren't properly prepared/trained for this. That makes it a fault of the State.

Those people also had guns and fired shots at the policemen, tear gas and water cannons aint worth **** against somebody with a gun. You run with a machete and a gun towards somebody with a gun, you get shot. These guys were not just going to run up to them and shake their hands, they wanted to murder those policemen. 2 of which were killed already this week. It was self defense.

30 attempted murderers off the streets, bravo to the South African police.

--Kaiser-- · 17-08-2012 12:11PM

Heavily-armed officers were laying out barbed wire barricades when they were outflanked by some of the 3,000 miners......
Before this clash, ten people including two policemen, had died in fighting at the mine, the latest platinum plant to be hit by an eight-month turf war in the world’s main producer of the precious metal.

OP, did you even read the article before posting this 'won't someone please think of the children?' thread?

My name is URL · 17-08-2012 12:45PM

Where exactly are the guns and machetes in that vid? From the pics I've seen, which I won't link to because of how graphic they are... all I see is a pile of dead unarmed bodies and hundreds of heavily armed police officers.

There is no way that every one of those miners that were killed was armed. The police fcuked up big time. If you watch any of the videos online you'll see just how dangerously and casually they opened fire. There were even officers in the line of (police) fire at one stage.. Even Jacob Zuma has said that he's alarmed at the loss of life at the mine, and he's not exactly a bleeding heart liberal.

bluecode · 17-08-2012 01:39PM

The video is fairly clear cut, it showed a mob charging towards the police having taken them by surprise. If the police hadn't opened fire the video would have next featured hand to hand combat between the two groups.

At that point there was little option but to open fire. It's not as if the police fired on peaceful protestors.

Colmustard · 17-08-2012 01:46PM

I think the police made the right call, I think the union leaders are the real crims.

But my sympathies and support are with the miners. It is the third biggest platinum mine in the world. Commodity prices are going through the roof especially precious metals, mining is back breaking work and to what I understand their pay is not great.

conor1979 · 17-08-2012 01:59PM

My name is URL wrote: »

Where exactly are the guns and machetes in that vid? From the pics I've seen, which I won't link to because of how graphic they are... all I see is a pile of dead unarmed bodies and hundreds of heavily armed police officers.

There is no way that every one of those miners that were killed was armed. The police fcuked up big time. If you watch any of the videos online you'll see just how dangerously and casually they opened fire. There were even officers in the line of (police) fire at one stage.. Even Jacob Zuma has said that he's alarmed at the loss of life at the mine, and he's not exactly a bleeding heart liberal.

Check out the footage on the BBC website.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-19292909

At one stage a policeman removes a handgun from the area where the bodies are.
Lots of the shots show the strikers with machete's and spears.
As far as I see they do not open fire 'casually' as you say but only when they got rushed by a group of protesters after reportedly being fired at.
How would you expect them to pick out the ones that are unarmed and not shoot them?
What would you have done if you were a police officer in this situation?

XxMCRxBabyxX · 17-08-2012 02:02PM

Casillas wrote: »

Richard Hillman wrote: »

The miners were running at the policemen with sticks and machetes. They were defending themselves.

That's awful policing, all over the world you see police being attacked at protests, which is responded to without killing.

Take Belfast for an example, if a mob started hurling petrol bombs at the police, tear-gas, water cannons etc. would be used. The police in this instance in S.A. weren't properly prepared/trained for this. That makes it a fault of the State.

They had already used tear gas and water cannons with no success, this was a last resort unfortunately

Dave! · 17-08-2012 02:02PM

Looks like the police were badly prepared, they shouldn't have been in a situation where their only option was to use a firing squad. But certainly the mob looked like it was charging at them, and many of them were armed.

CruelCoin · 17-08-2012 02:40PM

"Up to 18 people have reportedly been killed after South African riot police opened fire on striking miners armed with machetes and sticks at Lonmin’s Marikana platinum mine."

A Machete is a step up from knives now....

Frankly, you wave a weapon at the cops, your life is forfeit.

DoesNotCompute · 17-08-2012 02:47PM

Benny_Cake wrote: »

The strikers were wielding pangas and chanting war songs. Police fired teargas and then used a water cannon to disperse the strikers, who retaliated by firing live ammunition at the police.

The area around the hill, which the strikers had turned into their base for the past few days, was cordoned off with barbed wire.[/URL]

Holy fock. And I thought the anti-HHC lot were bad :eek:

Colmustard · 17-08-2012 02:48PM

You would think the strike organisers would show better leadership, I think the blames rests squarely on their shoulders.

My name is URL · 17-08-2012 02:56PM

The figure has actually increased to 36+ now. And fair enough about the police protecting themselves. I can't say hand-on-heart that I wouldn't do the same in their shoes.

It just shows how fcuked up the country is though. People willing to have themselves killed or kill others just to be afforded some very basic human rights. It's a sad state of affairs whichever way you look at it. And still there's a distinct lack of international condemnation regarding the political system and endemic corruption in SA. If this was happening today in the Arab world, countries and their leaders would be queuing up to lambaste the ruling parties for failing to deal with a problem which has led to so much violence over the last decade or more. I mean you've got to laugh at the idea of Zuma saying, without a single hint of irony, that; "we believe there is enough space in our democratic order for any dispute to be resolved without any breaches of the law".

end of the road · 17-08-2012 03:01PM

self defence? meh, revenge for the murder of 2 of their colleagues, from the amount of shots fired i'd say they were enjoying it, maybe the reason the (mob) had weapons themselves was because they knew this would be the outcome eventually? lets face it, SA is no holiday destination now is it.

--Kaiser-- · 17-08-2012 03:06PM

end of the road wrote: »

self defence? meh, revenge for the murder of 2 of their colleagues, from the amount of shots fired i'd say they were enjoying it, maybe the reason the (mob) had weapons themselves was because they knew this would be the outcome eventually? lets face it, SA is no holiday destination now is it.

What difference does this make to South Africa as a holiday destination?

conor1979 · 17-08-2012 03:14PM

My name is URL wrote: »

It just shows how fcuked up the country is though. People willing to have themselves killed or kill others just to be afforded some very basic human rights. It's a sad state of affairs whichever way you look at it. And still there's a distinct lack of international condemnation regarding the political system and endemic corruption in SA. If this was happening today in the Arab world, countries and their leaders would be queuing up to lambaste the ruling parties for failing to deal with a problem which has led to so much violence over the last decade or more. I mean you've got to laugh at the idea of Zuma saying, without a single hint of irony, that; "we believe there is enough space in our democratic order for any dispute to be resolved without any breaches of the law".

Could not agree with you more on this.

A lot of hard work by a lot of people seems to have gone down the drain.
Not much difference between now and 30 years ago by the sound of it!The whites abused and took advantage of the blacks because they thought they were a lower class. What excuse do the blacks have for doing it to their own people?

Cienciano · 17-08-2012 03:19PM

What the hell are people doing at a strike with a machete?

end of the road wrote: »

self defence? meh, revenge for the murder of 2 of their colleagues, from the amount of shots fired i'd say they were enjoying it, maybe the reason the (mob) had weapons themselves was because they knew this would be the outcome eventually? lets face it, SA is no holiday destination now is it.

You're not going on holiday to SA because the police shot guys running at them with machetes and a gun? :rolleyes:

IrishAm · 17-08-2012 03:20PM

--Kaiser-- wrote: »

What difference does this make to South Africa as a holiday destination?

Genocide watch has upgraded South Africa to stage six: preparation.

http://www.genocidewatch.org/southafrica.html

Reason enough to give the safari a miss.

hooradiation · 17-08-2012 03:29PM

end of the road wrote: »

self defence? meh, revenge for the murder of 2 of their colleagues, from the amount of shots fired i'd say they were enjoying it, maybe the reason the (mob) had weapons themselves was because they knew this would be the outcome eventually? lets face it, SA is no holiday destination now is it.

There is a documented phenomenon whereby when groups of people firing tend to

A] Have a hit rate of 43% at best and that's from about 6 foot away
B] Will keep firing because everyone else is - it's a weird feedback loop of sorts.

But I'm sorry, you were making shit up, how rude of me to interrupt.

marc96 · 17-08-2012 05:03PM

My name is URL wrote: »

The corruption there is unreal. I remember reading the following article last year about how relations of Mandela and Zuma were running a mine and how the workers were not been paid for months on end. They were too poor to do anything about it and depended on the ANC to provide them with food while they remained at the mine. Khulubuse Zuma who was chairman of the mine at the time donated millions to the ANC while failing to pay the workers wages.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-13275704

It's not surprising that people get hurt in such circumstances. People can only be pushed so far before reacting. The sad thing is that this will probably barely be noticed in SA. People are well used to hearing about police shooting people dead... it's a complete shithole and it's amazing how most if it seems to be ignored by the rest of the Western world.

firstly who are u too call the place a sh/thole???the police did the right there as they were been charged by protesters with machetes,knives and hand guns(were found on some of the bodies).those protesters already killed two cops and a few fellow workers who did not want to strike and just wanted to go back to work.if i was there i would have shot them all,i would not risk my life or a fellow officers life just because im scared to shot a black man?no matter what colour u are...if u charge the police with weapons and refuse to stop when u have been warned numerous times u will be shot

My name is URL · 17-08-2012 05:13PM

marc96 wrote: »

firstly who are u too call the place a sh/thole???

Why shouldn't I call it a ****hole? It's worse than a ****hole

A woman is statistically more likely to be raped in SA than educated.

What would you call a place with such a reputation?

end of the road · 17-08-2012 05:16PM

marc96 wrote: »

firstly who are u too call the place a sh/thole???the police did the right there as they were been charged by protesters with machetes,knives and hand guns(were found on some of the bodies).those protesters already killed two cops and a few fellow workers who did not want to strike and just wanted to go back to work.if i was there i would have shot them all,i would not risk my life or a fellow officers life just because im scared to shot a black man?no matter what colour u are...if u charge the police with weapons and refuse to stop when u have been warned numerous times u will be shot

no, he only reason why the workers had weapons in the first place is because the police over there are violent trash themselves.

marc96 · 17-08-2012 05:20PM

My name is URL wrote: »

Why shouldn't I call it a ****hole? It's worse than a ****hole

A woman is statistically more likely to be raped in SA than educated.

What would you call a place with such a reputation?

sorry i forgot this doesnt happen in ireland!!!I would feel safer walking around SA at night than i would around Dublin.dont speak or get involved in things u no nothing about except for what u read in the papers.if everybody outside of ireland did that then they would expect to see explosions and gang shootings everyday in ireland????

conor1979 · 17-08-2012 05:26PM

marc96 wrote: »

sorry i forgot this doesnt happen in ireland!!!I would feel safer walking around SA at night than i would around Dublin.dont speak or get involved in things u no nothing about except for what u read in the papers.if everybody outside of ireland did that then they would expect to see explosions and gang shootings everyday in ireland????

Do you know anybody from SA? Because I do and they tell me that there are very few places in SA that you can walk at night.

I've lived in Dublin on and off for ten years and as dodgy as some places may be they dont compare to the stories I have been told about SA.

marc96 · 17-08-2012 05:28PM

conor1979 wrote: »

Do you know anybody from SA? Because I do and they tell me that there are very few places in SA that you can walk at night.

I've lived in Dublin on and off for ten years and as dodgy as some places may be they dont compare to the stories I have been told about SA.

im from SA,my whole family lives there.

conor1979 · 17-08-2012 05:30PM

marc96 wrote: »

im from SA,my whole family lives there.

And you think Dublin isn't as safe?

marc96 · 17-08-2012 05:33PM

conor1979 wrote: »

And you think Dublin isn't as safe?

im just saying i wouldnt walk at night alone in dublin,where if i was in cape town i would.

conor1979 · 17-08-2012 05:38PM

marc96 wrote: »

im just saying i wouldnt walk at night alone in dublin,where if i was in cape town i would.

You have a seriously skewed view of Dublin!!!

I've lived in a few major cities and Dublin is as safe as any of them.

I was supposed to go and work in a bar in Joberg a few years ago and the SA doormen I knew told me not to as it was too dangerous.

I was told Cape Town was safer but only around the harbour area. Once you got outside of this area it just got dodgy!

I wont be happy if they were telling me porkys!!!!!:mad:

Surely you cant do this in a democratic state!

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