Surely you cant do this in a democratic state!

losthorizon

Police in SA opened fire and mowed down striking miners. Now, I know some had knives but this is totally wrong.

SA isnt the the most peaceful country but the police are there to save lives not to take it away surely.

http://www.euronews.com/2012/08/16/s-africa-police-open-fire-on-striking-miners/

Jimminy Mc Fukhead

Stupid miners, bringing a knife to a gun fight.
And don't call me Shirley.

Sulla Felix

They just did though. Did you mean shouldn't?

Richard Hillman

The miners were running at the policemen with sticks and machetes. They were defending themselves.

golden lane

there seems to be conflicting reports at the moment .......may be clearer tomorrow...

Cassidy28

Yeah leave it rest till tomorrow

My name is URL

That's mental. It's gonna take a whole lot of mental gymnastics for people to justify what happened there.

galwayrush

Aparently they can.

Scioch

Heavily-armed officers were laying out barbed wire barricades when they were outflanked by some of the 3,000 miners in what appears to be the deadliest episode of a week of violence between rival unions.

Outflanked mean attacked or they tried to surround them or what ? And they were armed with machetes.

mikemac1

A crowd with machetes and sticks?

You can see gangs in Westmeath with those, well slash hooks instead of machetes boss

marshbaboon

Scioch wrote: »

Outflanked mean attacked or they tried to surround them or what ? And they were armed with machetes.

Not the most effective mining tool if you ask me...

Colmustard

The miners have already killed 2 policemen and they were been charged at with machetes, if I was in command of the police I would have given the order to open fire.

Cassidy28

Those miners mind their own so fcuk them.

Biggins

losthorizon wrote: »

Police in SA opened fire and mowed down striking miners. Now, I know some had knives but this is totally wrong.

SA isnt the the most peaceful country but the police are there to save lives not to take it away surely.

http://www.euronews.com/2012/08/16/s-africa-police-open-fire-on-striking-miners/

They do that, the USA shoots students (earlier era Vietnam protest), North Korea bombs innocent civilians on an island, Russia and China gives weapons to Syria still to kill its own people...

The world is a cruel and unfair place at times - and people can be stupid.

Benny_Cake

It still sees a little unclear what happened exactly, there has been trouble at that mine for months due to a dispute between the National Union of Mineworkers and a radical breakaway group. A sad situation really. From the Mail and Guardian:

The strikers were wielding pangas and chanting war songs. Police fired teargas and then used a water cannon to disperse the strikers, who retaliated by firing live ammunition at the police.

The area around the hill, which the strikers had turned into their base for the past few days, was cordoned off with barbed wire.

Tipsy McSwagger

Never bring a knife to a gunfight

end of the road

will probably get worse before it gets better.

Nodin

end of the road wrote: »

will probably get worse before it gets better.

May get worse, then better, then worser again.

Guy:Incognito

Biggins wrote: »

The world is a cruel and unfair place at times - and people can be stupid.

They sure can. Like running at armed police with a machete.

Ghandee

I.remember the miner strikes over in the UK in the eighties.

Yer man Arthur Scargill broke his nose, and he wasn't able to picket for a whole week.

Biggins

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

They sure can. Like running at armed police with a machete.

That was just stupid and suicidal.

Casillas

Richard Hillman wrote: »

The miners were running at the policemen with sticks and machetes. They were defending themselves.

That's awful policing, all over the world you see police being attacked at protests, which is responded to without killing.

Take Belfast for an example, if a mob started hurling petrol bombs at the police, tear-gas, water cannons etc. would be used. The police in this instance in S.A. weren't properly prepared/trained for this. That makes it a fault of the State.

blacklilly

I felt really sad when I saw this on the news.I know we are in a recession and that's whats relative to us now but these miners are paid so badly and are trying to make s stand for what we would consider an injustice and they are killed for it.
When we protest at least we don't fear being shot, we can protest knowing we have the freedom and right to do so.
We have it so easy compared to these people, very few of us go hungry or have to work in an intensively laborious job in order to support our families. It really sickens me that a government can treat its people like this and will continue to treat its people like this for a very long time to come.
At least we have freedom of speech

sock puppet

It's a bloody gang war between rival unions. Hardly comparable to protests or industrial disputes.

My name is URL

The corruption there is unreal. I remember reading the following article last year about how relations of Mandela and Zuma were running a mine and how the workers were not been paid for months on end. They were too poor to do anything about it and depended on the ANC to provide them with food while they remained at the mine. Khulubuse Zuma who was chairman of the mine at the time donated millions to the ANC while failing to pay the workers wages.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-13275704

It's not surprising that people get hurt in such circumstances. People can only be pushed so far before reacting. The sad thing is that this will probably barely be noticed in SA. People are well used to hearing about police shooting people dead... it's a complete shithole and it's amazing how most if it seems to be ignored by the rest of the Western world.

blacklilly

sock puppet wrote: »

It's a bloody gang war between rival unions. Hardly comparable to protests or industrial disputes.

Fueled by oppression and the lack of freedom these people face on a daily basis. These people do not have the most basic human rights that we all take for granted. If we were in their situation we would be doing the exact same thing, you cannot oppress people and expect a positive outcome. Oppression creates circumstances like this. These men are conditioned to react the way they have through generations of hardship and control.
I honestly feel for them, this protest will not have a positive outcome as yet again they are being oppressed, told to continue working and to basically shut up or be shot.

Cookie_Monster

Colmustard wrote: »

The miners have already killed 2 policemen and they were been charged at with machetes, if I was in command of the police I would have given the order to open fire.

+1 they also killed workers crossing the picket line and were carrying guns according to the link in the thread in politics

It's a very sensationalist article written to show the police in a bad light IMO.

Kurz

Not sure if I'm reading the same article as the other posters on the thread who've pointed out that the miners were "running at" the police. Is there a different article that reports on the part when the miners ran at the police?

blacklilly

blacklilly wrote: »

Fueled by oppression and the lack of freedom these people face on a daily basis. These people do not have the most basic human rights that we all take for granted. If we were in their situation we would be doing the exact same thing, you cannot oppress people and expect a positive outcome. Oppression creates circumstances like this. These men are conditioned to react the way they have through generations of hardship and control.
I honestly feel for them, this protest will not have a positive outcome as yet again they are being oppressed, told to continue working and to basically shut up or be shot.

Oppression how exactly?? Lack of freedom, how exactly?

Read up on BEE,BBEEE,BBBEE, AA and all that crap and come back and talk about oppression and lack of freedom.

I am working in SA and trust me the strikes here cannot even compare to industrial disputes in Ireland or any other western world country.

When a strike happens here there is absolute chaos.

Also the rumours doing the rounds here is those 2 policemen were hacked to death with machetes and axes.
Also the police did use tear gas and water cannons but opened fire when they were shot at.

Protests here are not like protests in Ireland, they are nastey and crime ridden.

Last year the toll operators went on strike and started hurling rocks at passing cars, causing numerous accidents.

People like you with you politically correct mind don't have a clue what goes on here, trying to compare SA to Ireland is crazy.

You want to talk about oppression, then talk to the 4000+ farmers that were butchered since 94, the ones that were shot were the lucky ones.

blacklilly

keeffo2005 wrote: »

blacklilly wrote: »

Fueled by oppression and the lack of freedom these people face on a daily basis. These people do not have the most basic human rights that we all take for granted. If we were in their situation we would be doing the exact same thing, you cannot oppress people and expect a positive outcome. Oppression creates circumstances like this. These men are conditioned to react the way they have through generations of hardship and control.
I honestly feel for them, this protest will not have a positive outcome as yet again they are being oppressed, told to continue working and to basically shut up or be shot.

Oppression how exactly?? Lack of freedom, how exactly?

Read up on BEE,BBEEE,BBBEE, AA and all that crap and come back and talk about oppression and lack of freedom.

I am working in SA and trust me the strikes here cannot even compare to industrial disputes in Ireland or any other western world country.

When a strike happens here there is absolute chaos.

Also the rumours doing the rounds here is those 2 policemen were hacked to death with machetes and axes.
Also the police did use tear gas and water cannons but opened fire when they were shot at.

Protests here are not like protests in Ireland, they are nastey and crime ridden.

Last year the toll operators went on strike and started hurling rocks at passing cars, causing numerous accidents.

People like you with you politically correct mind don't have a clue what goes on here, trying to compare SA to Ireland is crazy.

You want to talk about oppression, then talk to the 4000+ farmers that were butchered since 94, the ones that were shot were the lucky ones.

What I'm comparing is human rights, obviously Ireland is relative to the majority of boards users therefore I'm using it as an example.
I am well aware that there is corruption, violence etc in SA, I'm commenting on what we would consider a basis right.
I also wouldn't consider myself politically correct but that's besides the point.
I saw the water cannons being used but Imagine how angry these men were if they still defied that , knowing the police were armed, knowing they would probably be shot at. What I'm saying is, we do not have to worry about that.
Also if I read every article, book, journal suggested by a boardsie I'd be a hermit.

blacklilly

blacklilly wrote: »

What I'm comparing is human rights, obviously Ireland is relative to the majority of boards users therefore I'm using it as an example.
I am well aware that there is corruption, violence etc in SA, I'm commenting on what we would consider a basis right.
I also wouldn't consider myself politically correct but that's besides the point.
I saw the water cannons being used but Imagine how angry these men were if they still defied that , knowing the police were armed, knowing they would probably be shot at. What I'm saying is, we do not have to worry about that.
Also if I read every article, book, journal suggested by a boardsie I'd be a hermit.

Its difficult to explain what goes on in these strikes, its like sheep following the Shepard. It happens in all the strikes here, the union leaders should be held accountable.
From talking to workers here, they are afraid if they don't join in. They and their families will be targeted afterwards.

Just like the elections, its all intimidation. Just look what the ANCYL said about making the Western Cape ungovernable because it is run by the DA, now there is violent protests there although it is the best run Provence.

Same with this strike, its all intimidation and threats, if you join in you are screwed if you don't you are more screwed.

Watch SA for the next few months, the intimidation and clashes have started already with the 2013 elections coming up, there is no such thing as free and fair elections here either

blacklilly

keeffo2005 wrote: »

blacklilly wrote: »

What I'm comparing is human rights, obviously Ireland is relative to the majority of boards users therefore I'm using it as an example.
I am well aware that there is corruption, violence etc in SA, I'm commenting on what we would consider a basis right.
I also wouldn't consider myself politically correct but that's besides the point.
I saw the water cannons being used but Imagine how angry these men were if they still defied that , knowing the police were armed, knowing they would probably be shot at. What I'm saying is, we do not have to worry about that.
Also if I read every article, book, journal suggested by a boardsie I'd be a hermit.

Its difficult to explain what goes on in these strikes, its like sheep following the Shepard. It happens in all the strikes here, the union leaders should be held accountable.
From talking to workers here, they are afraid if they don't join in. They and their families will be targeted afterwards.

Just like the elections, its all intimidation. Just look what the ANCYL said about making the Western Cape ungovernable because it is run by the DA, now there is violent protests there although it is the best run Provence.

Same with this strike, its all intimidation and threats, if you join in you are screwed if you don't you are more screwed.

Watch SA for the next few months, the intimidation and clashes have started already with the 2013 elections coming up, there is no such thing as free and fair elections here either

I'm aware of the issues regarding government and elections in SA, that's my very point, we have freedom of speech, although it is frowned upon crossing a picket line here, you won't be killed for doing so or your family won't feel threatned.
Those people are all products of a very scewed , unjust societly which promotes violence and kills those who speak out.

I was just putting my own pov accross and how I felt saddened seeing this on the news, there is no progression in SA and you still have an entirely corrupt government which means there will be no real progression for a long time to come

vicwatson

I think it's mad they way when there is a strike in Ireland the strikers either sit in or stand around a metal barrel that they use as a fire at the entrance.

In South Africa, they dance and sing songs (with weapons in hand of course) :eek:

mike65

South Africa sadly is probably Zimbabwe minus 10-15 years.

Richard Hillman

Casillas wrote: »

That's awful policing, all over the world you see police being attacked at protests, which is responded to without killing.

Take Belfast for an example, if a mob started hurling petrol bombs at the police, tear-gas, water cannons etc. would be used. The police in this instance in S.A. weren't properly prepared/trained for this. That makes it a fault of the State.

Those people also had guns and fired shots at the policemen, tear gas and water cannons aint worth **** against somebody with a gun. You run with a machete and a gun towards somebody with a gun, you get shot. These guys were not just going to run up to them and shake their hands, they wanted to murder those policemen. 2 of which were killed already this week. It was self defense.

30 attempted murderers off the streets, bravo to the South African police.

--Kaiser--

Heavily-armed officers were laying out barbed wire barricades when they were outflanked by some of the 3,000 miners......
Before this clash, ten people including two policemen, had died in fighting at the mine, the latest platinum plant to be hit by an eight-month turf war in the world’s main producer of the precious metal.

OP, did you even read the article before posting this 'won't someone please think of the children?' thread?

My name is URL

Where exactly are the guns and machetes in that vid? From the pics I've seen, which I won't link to because of how graphic they are... all I see is a pile of dead unarmed bodies and hundreds of heavily armed police officers.

There is no way that every one of those miners that were killed was armed. The police fcuked up big time. If you watch any of the videos online you'll see just how dangerously and casually they opened fire. There were even officers in the line of (police) fire at one stage.. Even Jacob Zuma has said that he's alarmed at the loss of life at the mine, and he's not exactly a bleeding heart liberal.

bluecode

The video is fairly clear cut, it showed a mob charging towards the police having taken them by surprise. If the police hadn't opened fire the video would have next featured hand to hand combat between the two groups.

At that point there was little option but to open fire. It's not as if the police fired on peaceful protestors.

Colmustard

I think the police made the right call, I think the union leaders are the real crims.

But my sympathies and support are with the miners. It is the third biggest platinum mine in the world. Commodity prices are going through the roof especially precious metals, mining is back breaking work and to what I understand their pay is not great.

conor1979

My name is URL wrote: »

Where exactly are the guns and machetes in that vid? From the pics I've seen, which I won't link to because of how graphic they are... all I see is a pile of dead unarmed bodies and hundreds of heavily armed police officers.

There is no way that every one of those miners that were killed was armed. The police fcuked up big time. If you watch any of the videos online you'll see just how dangerously and casually they opened fire. There were even officers in the line of (police) fire at one stage.. Even Jacob Zuma has said that he's alarmed at the loss of life at the mine, and he's not exactly a bleeding heart liberal.

Check out the footage on the BBC website.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-19292909

At one stage a policeman removes a handgun from the area where the bodies are.
Lots of the shots show the strikers with machete's and spears.
As far as I see they do not open fire 'casually' as you say but only when they got rushed by a group of protesters after reportedly being fired at.
How would you expect them to pick out the ones that are unarmed and not shoot them?
What would you have done if you were a police officer in this situation?

XxMCRxBabyxX

Casillas wrote: »

Richard Hillman wrote: »

The miners were running at the policemen with sticks and machetes. They were defending themselves.

That's awful policing, all over the world you see police being attacked at protests, which is responded to without killing.

Take Belfast for an example, if a mob started hurling petrol bombs at the police, tear-gas, water cannons etc. would be used. The police in this instance in S.A. weren't properly prepared/trained for this. That makes it a fault of the State.

They had already used tear gas and water cannons with no success, this was a last resort unfortunately

Dave!

Looks like the police were badly prepared, they shouldn't have been in a situation where their only option was to use a firing squad. But certainly the mob looked like it was charging at them, and many of them were armed.

CruelCoin

"Up to 18 people have reportedly been killed after South African riot police opened fire on striking miners armed with machetes and sticks at Lonmin’s Marikana platinum mine."

A Machete is a step up from knives now....

Frankly, you wave a weapon at the cops, your life is forfeit.

DoesNotCompute

Benny_Cake wrote: »

The strikers were wielding pangas and chanting war songs. Police fired teargas and then used a water cannon to disperse the strikers, who retaliated by firing live ammunition at the police.

The area around the hill, which the strikers had turned into their base for the past few days, was cordoned off with barbed wire.[/URL]

Holy fock. And I thought the anti-HHC lot were bad :eek:

Colmustard

You would think the strike organisers would show better leadership, I think the blames rests squarely on their shoulders.

My name is URL

The figure has actually increased to 36+ now. And fair enough about the police protecting themselves. I can't say hand-on-heart that I wouldn't do the same in their shoes.

It just shows how fcuked up the country is though. People willing to have themselves killed or kill others just to be afforded some very basic human rights. It's a sad state of affairs whichever way you look at it. And still there's a distinct lack of international condemnation regarding the political system and endemic corruption in SA. If this was happening today in the Arab world, countries and their leaders would be queuing up to lambaste the ruling parties for failing to deal with a problem which has led to so much violence over the last decade or more. I mean you've got to laugh at the idea of Zuma saying, without a single hint of irony, that; "we believe there is enough space in our democratic order for any dispute to be resolved without any breaches of the law".

end of the road

self defence? meh, revenge for the murder of 2 of their colleagues, from the amount of shots fired i'd say they were enjoying it, maybe the reason the (mob) had weapons themselves was because they knew this would be the outcome eventually? lets face it, SA is no holiday destination now is it.

--Kaiser--

end of the road wrote: »

self defence? meh, revenge for the murder of 2 of their colleagues, from the amount of shots fired i'd say they were enjoying it, maybe the reason the (mob) had weapons themselves was because they knew this would be the outcome eventually? lets face it, SA is no holiday destination now is it.

What difference does this make to South Africa as a holiday destination?

conor1979

My name is URL wrote: »

It just shows how fcuked up the country is though. People willing to have themselves killed or kill others just to be afforded some very basic human rights. It's a sad state of affairs whichever way you look at it. And still there's a distinct lack of international condemnation regarding the political system and endemic corruption in SA. If this was happening today in the Arab world, countries and their leaders would be queuing up to lambaste the ruling parties for failing to deal with a problem which has led to so much violence over the last decade or more. I mean you've got to laugh at the idea of Zuma saying, without a single hint of irony, that; "we believe there is enough space in our democratic order for any dispute to be resolved without any breaches of the law".

Could not agree with you more on this.

A lot of hard work by a lot of people seems to have gone down the drain.
Not much difference between now and 30 years ago by the sound of it!The whites abused and took advantage of the blacks because they thought they were a lower class. What excuse do the blacks have for doing it to their own people?

Cienciano

What the hell are people doing at a strike with a machete?

end of the road wrote: »

self defence? meh, revenge for the murder of 2 of their colleagues, from the amount of shots fired i'd say they were enjoying it, maybe the reason the (mob) had weapons themselves was because they knew this would be the outcome eventually? lets face it, SA is no holiday destination now is it.

You're not going on holiday to SA because the police shot guys running at them with machetes and a gun? :rolleyes:

IrishAm

--Kaiser-- wrote: »

What difference does this make to South Africa as a holiday destination?

Genocide watch has upgraded South Africa to stage six: preparation.

http://www.genocidewatch.org/southafrica.html

Reason enough to give the safari a miss.