Surely you cant do this in a democratic state!

losthorizon · 16-08-2012 08:14PM #1

Police in SA opened fire and mowed down striking miners. Now, I know some had knives but this is totally wrong.

SA isnt the the most peaceful country but the police are there to save lives not to take it away surely.

http://www.euronews.com/2012/08/16/s-africa-police-open-fire-on-striking-miners/

Jimminy Mc Fukhead · 16-08-2012 08:18PM

Stupid miners, bringing a knife to a gun fight.
And don't call me Shirley.

Sulla Felix · 16-08-2012 08:19PM

They just did though. Did you mean shouldn't?

Richard Hillman · 16-08-2012 08:20PM

The miners were running at the policemen with sticks and machetes. They were defending themselves.

golden lane · 16-08-2012 08:20PM

there seems to be conflicting reports at the moment .......may be clearer tomorrow...

Cassidy28 · 16-08-2012 08:21PM

Yeah leave it rest till tomorrow

My name is URL · 16-08-2012 08:23PM

That's mental. It's gonna take a whole lot of mental gymnastics for people to justify what happened there.

galwayrush · 16-08-2012 08:23PM

Aparently they can.

Scioch · 16-08-2012 08:24PM

Heavily-armed officers were laying out barbed wire barricades when they were outflanked by some of the 3,000 miners in what appears to be the deadliest episode of a week of violence between rival unions.

Outflanked mean attacked or they tried to surround them or what ? And they were armed with machetes.

mikemac1 · 16-08-2012 08:25PM

A crowd with machetes and sticks?

You can see gangs in Westmeath with those, well slash hooks instead of machetes boss

marshbaboon · 16-08-2012 08:25PM

Scioch wrote: »

Outflanked mean attacked or they tried to surround them or what ? And they were armed with machetes.

Not the most effective mining tool if you ask me...

Colmustard · 16-08-2012 08:27PM

The miners have already killed 2 policemen and they were been charged at with machetes, if I was in command of the police I would have given the order to open fire.

Cassidy28 · 16-08-2012 08:27PM

Those miners mind their own so fcuk them.

Biggins · 16-08-2012 08:27PM

losthorizon wrote: »

Police in SA opened fire and mowed down striking miners. Now, I know some had knives but this is totally wrong.

SA isnt the the most peaceful country but the police are there to save lives not to take it away surely.

http://www.euronews.com/2012/08/16/s-africa-police-open-fire-on-striking-miners/

They do that, the USA shoots students (earlier era Vietnam protest), North Korea bombs innocent civilians on an island, Russia and China gives weapons to Syria still to kill its own people...

The world is a cruel and unfair place at times - and people can be stupid.

Benny_Cake · 16-08-2012 08:41PM

It still sees a little unclear what happened exactly, there has been trouble at that mine for months due to a dispute between the National Union of Mineworkers and a radical breakaway group. A sad situation really. From the Mail and Guardian:

The strikers were wielding pangas and chanting war songs. Police fired teargas and then used a water cannon to disperse the strikers, who retaliated by firing live ammunition at the police.

The area around the hill, which the strikers had turned into their base for the past few days, was cordoned off with barbed wire.

Tipsy McSwagger · 16-08-2012 10:49PM

Never bring a knife to a gunfight

end of the road · 16-08-2012 11:29PM

will probably get worse before it gets better.

Nodin · 16-08-2012 11:32PM

end of the road wrote: »

will probably get worse before it gets better.

May get worse, then better, then worser again.

Guy:Incognito · 16-08-2012 11:32PM

Biggins wrote: »

The world is a cruel and unfair place at times - and people can be stupid.

They sure can. Like running at armed police with a machete.

Ghandee · 16-08-2012 11:32PM

I.remember the miner strikes over in the UK in the eighties.

Yer man Arthur Scargill broke his nose, and he wasn't able to picket for a whole week.

Biggins · 16-08-2012 11:34PM

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

They sure can. Like running at armed police with a machete.

That was just stupid and suicidal.

Casillas · 16-08-2012 11:36PM

Richard Hillman wrote: »

The miners were running at the policemen with sticks and machetes. They were defending themselves.

That's awful policing, all over the world you see police being attacked at protests, which is responded to without killing.

Take Belfast for an example, if a mob started hurling petrol bombs at the police, tear-gas, water cannons etc. would be used. The police in this instance in S.A. weren't properly prepared/trained for this. That makes it a fault of the State.

blacklilly · 16-08-2012 11:44PM

I felt really sad when I saw this on the news.I know we are in a recession and that's whats relative to us now but these miners are paid so badly and are trying to make s stand for what we would consider an injustice and they are killed for it.
When we protest at least we don't fear being shot, we can protest knowing we have the freedom and right to do so.
We have it so easy compared to these people, very few of us go hungry or have to work in an intensively laborious job in order to support our families. It really sickens me that a government can treat its people like this and will continue to treat its people like this for a very long time to come.
At least we have freedom of speech

sock puppet · 16-08-2012 11:55PM

It's a bloody gang war between rival unions. Hardly comparable to protests or industrial disputes.

My name is URL · 17-08-2012 12:08AM

The corruption there is unreal. I remember reading the following article last year about how relations of Mandela and Zuma were running a mine and how the workers were not been paid for months on end. They were too poor to do anything about it and depended on the ANC to provide them with food while they remained at the mine. Khulubuse Zuma who was chairman of the mine at the time donated millions to the ANC while failing to pay the workers wages.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-13275704

It's not surprising that people get hurt in such circumstances. People can only be pushed so far before reacting. The sad thing is that this will probably barely be noticed in SA. People are well used to hearing about police shooting people dead... it's a complete shithole and it's amazing how most if it seems to be ignored by the rest of the Western world.

blacklilly · 17-08-2012 12:17AM

sock puppet wrote: »

It's a bloody gang war between rival unions. Hardly comparable to protests or industrial disputes.

Fueled by oppression and the lack of freedom these people face on a daily basis. These people do not have the most basic human rights that we all take for granted. If we were in their situation we would be doing the exact same thing, you cannot oppress people and expect a positive outcome. Oppression creates circumstances like this. These men are conditioned to react the way they have through generations of hardship and control.
I honestly feel for them, this protest will not have a positive outcome as yet again they are being oppressed, told to continue working and to basically shut up or be shot.

Cookie_Monster · 17-08-2012 12:41AM

Colmustard wrote: »

The miners have already killed 2 policemen and they were been charged at with machetes, if I was in command of the police I would have given the order to open fire.

+1 they also killed workers crossing the picket line and were carrying guns according to the link in the thread in politics

It's a very sensationalist article written to show the police in a bad light IMO.

Kurz · 17-08-2012 01:07AM

Not sure if I'm reading the same article as the other posters on the thread who've pointed out that the miners were "running at" the police. Is there a different article that reports on the part when the miners ran at the police?

17-08-2012 07:31AM

blacklilly wrote: »

Fueled by oppression and the lack of freedom these people face on a daily basis. These people do not have the most basic human rights that we all take for granted. If we were in their situation we would be doing the exact same thing, you cannot oppress people and expect a positive outcome. Oppression creates circumstances like this. These men are conditioned to react the way they have through generations of hardship and control.
I honestly feel for them, this protest will not have a positive outcome as yet again they are being oppressed, told to continue working and to basically shut up or be shot.

Oppression how exactly?? Lack of freedom, how exactly?

Read up on BEE,BBEEE,BBBEE, AA and all that crap and come back and talk about oppression and lack of freedom.

I am working in SA and trust me the strikes here cannot even compare to industrial disputes in Ireland or any other western world country.

When a strike happens here there is absolute chaos.

Also the rumours doing the rounds here is those 2 policemen were hacked to death with machetes and axes.
Also the police did use tear gas and water cannons but opened fire when they were shot at.

Protests here are not like protests in Ireland, they are nastey and crime ridden.

Last year the toll operators went on strike and started hurling rocks at passing cars, causing numerous accidents.

People like you with you politically correct mind don't have a clue what goes on here, trying to compare SA to Ireland is crazy.

You want to talk about oppression, then talk to the 4000+ farmers that were butchered since 94, the ones that were shot were the lucky ones.

blacklilly · 17-08-2012 07:46AM

keeffo2005 wrote: »

blacklilly wrote: »

Fueled by oppression and the lack of freedom these people face on a daily basis. These people do not have the most basic human rights that we all take for granted. If we were in their situation we would be doing the exact same thing, you cannot oppress people and expect a positive outcome. Oppression creates circumstances like this. These men are conditioned to react the way they have through generations of hardship and control.
I honestly feel for them, this protest will not have a positive outcome as yet again they are being oppressed, told to continue working and to basically shut up or be shot.

Oppression how exactly?? Lack of freedom, how exactly?

Read up on BEE,BBEEE,BBBEE, AA and all that crap and come back and talk about oppression and lack of freedom.

I am working in SA and trust me the strikes here cannot even compare to industrial disputes in Ireland or any other western world country.

When a strike happens here there is absolute chaos.

Also the rumours doing the rounds here is those 2 policemen were hacked to death with machetes and axes.
Also the police did use tear gas and water cannons but opened fire when they were shot at.

Protests here are not like protests in Ireland, they are nastey and crime ridden.

Last year the toll operators went on strike and started hurling rocks at passing cars, causing numerous accidents.

People like you with you politically correct mind don't have a clue what goes on here, trying to compare SA to Ireland is crazy.

You want to talk about oppression, then talk to the 4000+ farmers that were butchered since 94, the ones that were shot were the lucky ones.

What I'm comparing is human rights, obviously Ireland is relative to the majority of boards users therefore I'm using it as an example.
I am well aware that there is corruption, violence etc in SA, I'm commenting on what we would consider a basis right.
I also wouldn't consider myself politically correct but that's besides the point.
I saw the water cannons being used but Imagine how angry these men were if they still defied that , knowing the police were armed, knowing they would probably be shot at. What I'm saying is, we do not have to worry about that.
Also if I read every article, book, journal suggested by a boardsie I'd be a hermit.

17-08-2012 07:55AM

blacklilly wrote: »

What I'm comparing is human rights, obviously Ireland is relative to the majority of boards users therefore I'm using it as an example.
I am well aware that there is corruption, violence etc in SA, I'm commenting on what we would consider a basis right.
I also wouldn't consider myself politically correct but that's besides the point.
I saw the water cannons being used but Imagine how angry these men were if they still defied that , knowing the police were armed, knowing they would probably be shot at. What I'm saying is, we do not have to worry about that.
Also if I read every article, book, journal suggested by a boardsie I'd be a hermit.

Its difficult to explain what goes on in these strikes, its like sheep following the Shepard. It happens in all the strikes here, the union leaders should be held accountable.
From talking to workers here, they are afraid if they don't join in. They and their families will be targeted afterwards.

Just like the elections, its all intimidation. Just look what the ANCYL said about making the Western Cape ungovernable because it is run by the DA, now there is violent protests there although it is the best run Provence.

Same with this strike, its all intimidation and threats, if you join in you are screwed if you don't you are more screwed.

Watch SA for the next few months, the intimidation and clashes have started already with the 2013 elections coming up, there is no such thing as free and fair elections here either

Surely you cant do this in a democratic state!

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