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(Article) Think hardware: Ireland’s master plan to generate 20,000 new jobs

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  • #32
    vinnyme
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37 ✭vinnyme


    The point is there is no "Big" Industry - I simply took the automotive industry as an example. It could be consumer goods or anything - just bringing back industry and selling ireland as a consortium of manufacturers that work together was the point.


  • #33
    bbam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,410 ✭✭✭bbam


    But the whole push in the thread is to dream up something that we could plough loads of money into so we have created the environment where a large industury grows.... lots of if's, but's and maybe's..

    the truth is we are sitting on two major industries at the moment which are completly underdeveloped and essentially ignored...

    Tourism;
    We have lakes and rivers for fishing, dis-used rail track for cycling, the west cost is second to none.. Heritage and folkloire round every hill and corner, but all these need some developing and marketing, a simple example is that there is still little to do here when it rains.. tourists come to spend money to enjoy themselves, thats half the battle, they expect to spend money!

    Wind Power:
    off-shore or on-shore. there is an industury to be developed, not just sign over liscences.. an actual industury manufacturing developing turbines and producing green power for consumption and export.


    No need to re-invent the wheel... just change the tyre on the current wheel and away we go... attracting another Intel or HP is becoming more and more diffocult.


  • #34
    djpbarry
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    vinnyme wrote: »
    The point is there is no "Big" Industry - I simply took the automotive industry as an example.
    Ok, but the problem there is that Ireland has never really had any kind of heavy industry. That’s not to say that some might develop in the future (Ireland’s particularly well-positioned geographically to develop a renewable energy technologies industry), but attempting to imitate and out-compete established industries in other major economies is unlikely to be successful.

    Ireland has a lot of experience and expertise in the food industry, in particular, and it makes sense to exploit this as fully as possible. In recent decades, expertise have also been acquired in software development and high-end manufacturing, which will hopefully stand to the country in the decades to come.


  • #35
    vinnyme
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37 ✭vinnyme


    djpbarry wrote: »
    Ok, but the problem there is that Ireland has never really had any kind of heavy industry. That’s not to say that some might develop in the future (Ireland’s particularly well-positioned geographically to develop a renewable energy technologies industry), but attempting to imitate and out-compete established industries in other major economies is unlikely to be successful.

    Ireland has a lot of experience and expertise in the food industry, in particular, and it makes sense to exploit this as fully as possible. In recent decades, expertise have also been acquired in software development and high-end manufacturing, which will hopefully stand to the country in the decades to come.

    I completely agree with the high end stuff - we're actually really good at it. But to create jobs, we need to get big industry back - there's only so many people qualified for the high end stuff. In the meantime, as in now, you need to be able to employ all the low skilled people - they are the ones in real trouble. So how about an initiative to develop renewables? Should there be an Irish, manufacturing led platform looking at how we can scale our current knowledge and turn it into a worldwide player (Like Siemens) but using the technologies we are good at developing (Tidal wave power, estuary turbines etc) instead? The composites industry is quite small here but it is easily scalable and is a very hands on method of manufacturing.

    As far as the tourism trade is concerned - I don't think you can play on that. Portugal and Spain have a massive tourism sector but it's not pulling the countries out of recession.


  • #36
    djpbarry
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    vinnyme wrote: »
    I completely agree with the high end stuff - we're actually really good at it. But to create jobs, we need to get big industry back - there's only so many people qualified for the high end stuff. In the meantime, as in now, you need to be able to employ all the low skilled people - they are the ones in real trouble.
    Well, first of all, the Googles of this world require far more than just programmers and computer scientists – check out the array of positions advertised on their jobs pages.

    Secondly, jobs create jobs. Filling high-skilled positions creates a demand for services within the local/national economy, creating job vacancies that are more likely to be filled by lower-skilled workers.

    The problem in Ireland at the moment is that there is great big mismatch between employment opportunities and the general skill-set of the unemployed. Consequently, numerous high-skilled positions are not being filled and this represents a significant barrier to growth. Obviously Ireland needs to focus more on developing indigenous industry, but that’s a longer term goal.
    vinnyme wrote: »
    As far as the tourism trade is concerned - I don't think you can play on that. Portugal and Spain have a massive tourism sector but it's not pulling the countries out of recession.
    I wouldn’t expect tourism alone to fuel Ireland’s economic growth, but it shouldn’t be written off. Ireland has been incredibly successful in marketing itself abroad. It’s quite remarkable that a small island off the coast of Europe should be so well known throughout the world (a Japanese colleague of mine is planning on travelling to Ireland for his honeymoon). It would be foolish not to capitalise on this to the fullest extent possible.


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  • #37
    vinnyme
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37 ✭vinnyme


    djpbarry wrote: »

    Secondly, jobs create jobs. Filling high-skilled positions creates a demand for services within the local/national economy, creating job vacancies that are more likely to be filled by lower-skilled workers.

    Do you mean like in the construction industry? Or retail for that matter? That didn't work out so well last time. The parallel between high skilled jobs and low skilled labor sometimes cracks me up. Getting low skilled labor employed means getting them into jobs that are bubble-proof, stable and indigenous. Clean-tech is going to be around for a good while - we're not switching to deuterium power plants in the near future. We can compete with the giants on theis one - some of our indigenous technology in teh Clean tech sector is amazing and miles ahead of other larger companies but we're losing out on contracts because of productivity issues.


  • #38
    Gurgle
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,058 ✭✭✭Gurgle


    djpbarry wrote: »
    There is absolutely no point in Ireland trying to compete with the likes of Germany, the UK, Japan and the US on the automotive front.
    The big manufacturers seem to be turning more towards outsourcing of parts in recent years.

    I agree there would be no point in setting up a new brand to try and grab some market share, but I expect there's more room for specialist companies to supply subsystems.

    Automotive grade batteries for example, there's a market that is guaranteed to take off in the next decade. Who's making them now?


  • #39
    Tea drinker
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,818 ✭✭✭Tea drinker


    Gurgle wrote: »
    I agree there would be no point in setting up a new brand to try and grab some market share, but I expect there's more room for specialist companies to supply subsystems.
    Well didn't that company that made wiring looms close a few years back? Ford and the others long since gone. I think we are too expensive and industry will wind down rather than pick up here.
    We need NAMA to make available a few of those empty warehouses lying empty for entrerenaurs (not property developers) to brainstorm and build ideas in.
    It's further up the value chain we need to be - I think.


  • #40
    djpbarry
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    vinnyme wrote: »
    Do you mean like in the construction industry? Or retail for that matter? That didn't work out so well last time.
    Retail? To an extent. Construction? Not so much – I wouldn’t call construction a service, although there’s nothing wrong with having a functional construction industry.
    vinnyme wrote: »
    Getting low skilled labor employed means getting them into jobs that are bubble-proof, stable and indigenous.
    What kind of jobs are we talking about here? Because, to me, “low-skilled” and “stable” are two concepts that are difficult to reconcile.
    Tea drinker wrote: »
    We need NAMA to make available a few of those empty warehouses lying empty for entrerenaurs (not property developers) to brainstorm and build ideas in.
    It's further up the value chain we need to be - I think.
    Why on Earth would anyone need a warehouse in order to “brainstorm”?


  • #41
    Tea drinker
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,818 ✭✭✭Tea drinker


    djpbarry wrote: »
    Why on Earth would anyone need a warehouse in order to “brainstorm”?
    Everyone needs an empty warehouse to brainstorm, there's probably enough for all of us. ;)

    But seriously think of it as a one stop shop for fostering business ideas. How many people have good ideas and no way to make a prototype, get advice on marketting and how to build a business? FAS and IDA hardly do this for domestic ideas today. It's about setting up a sandbox to get the kernel of an idea to a desirable marketable commodity. Sure there would be a lot of chaff in the wheat but all it needs is a few winners.
    Even if the success rate is abysmal we still get a spinoff off fostering domestic business minds, something we continually slate as lacking here?
    And why a warehouse? They are waay cheaper than office buildings and are in plentiful supply, often in industrial estates which would have raw materials etc. As there would be a need for an engineering workshop for prototyping an office building is not best suited. I think we are smart enough people to have some great ideas out there just waiting to be nourished. Look at how the likes of google work on these ideas, giving people time to brainstorm on how theway they can really change the way they work. It's not a static slow enviornment it builds an impetus to get things done.

    Tht's what I think a jobs initiative looks like.


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  • #42
    maninasia
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,635 ✭✭✭maninasia


    It's a nice dream, but the car industry is already extremely competitive. You'd have to have a niche in something beyond the current generation, as you mentioned Tesla. But it would have a high chance of becoming the Delorean's replacement in Back to the Future 4.

    You are right aswell that the car industry creates massive amounts of downstream jobs and industry and services, which is why it was mistake for the UK in particular to turn away from heavy manufacturing. We have never been a heavy manufacturing base in Ireland, excepting Northern Ireland. We just don't have the capital to compete in that kind of industry. We could try to attract more car part suppliers to manufacture here, but why would they do that? The industry is located in Central Europe with great transport, skills and cost base, we are on the periphery with crap transport, few skills in that area and a high cost base.

    Ireland can do light manufacturing well. It seems customised manufacturing could be a real growth area. Pharma, IT, high tech, we've got them all in Ireland. It will be good to build on those strengths. Real areas of opportunity exist in upgrading the local agricultural and food processing industry. Also bringing existing stodgy brands into the world of fashion and luxury and to promote them into emerging markets in Asia and the Middle East and step away from the hokey olde Irish element. That market will remain but there is no growth there. Ireland needs to face East more to catch bigger growth opportunities.

    Waterford crystal went bankrupt. Swavorski is bigger than ever. There's a lesson there.


  • #43
    maninasia
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,635 ✭✭✭maninasia


    Gurgle wrote: »
    The big manufacturers seem to be turning more towards outsourcing of parts in recent years.

    I agree there would be no point in setting up a new brand to try and grab some market share, but I expect there's more room for specialist companies to supply subsystems.

    Automotive grade batteries for example, there's a market that is guaranteed to take off in the next decade. Who's making them now?

    China and the US, even if the R&D is in the West China will probably be the manufacturing base for this type of product, they already have the infrastructure and know-how and huge existing industry.


  • #44
    maninasia
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,635 ✭✭✭maninasia


    vinnyme wrote: »
    Do you mean like in the construction industry? Or retail for that matter? That didn't work out so well last time. The parallel between high skilled jobs and low skilled labor sometimes cracks me up. Getting low skilled labor employed means getting them into jobs that are bubble-proof, stable and indigenous. Clean-tech is going to be around for a good while - we're not switching to deuterium power plants in the near future. We can compete with the giants on theis one - some of our indigenous technology in teh Clean tech sector is amazing and miles ahead of other larger companies but we're losing out on contracts because of productivity issues.

    I'm intrigued. I've heard Ireland is 'really good at' clean-tech and renewable energy industry. In fact what exactly is 'clean tech'?
    What are the examples?

    We have 'lots of potential'. So where is it exactly?

    Didn't we have a company called Airtricity which built itself up and then they sold themselves off to a multinational?
    How many wind turbines do we produce in Ireland?
    Can we make money off all these renewable resources without increasing our internal electricity costs significantly?


  • #45
    djpbarry
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    Tea drinker wrote: »
    But seriously think of it as a one stop shop for fostering business ideas. How many people have good ideas and no way to make a prototype, get advice on marketting and how to build a business? FAS and IDA hardly do this for domestic ideas today. It's about setting up a sandbox to get the kernel of an idea to a desirable marketable commodity. Sure there would be a lot of chaff in the wheat but all it needs is a few winners.
    Well, let me put it like this...

    An entrepreneur who needs the state to supply them with a premises in which they can thrash out ideas is probably not going to be a terribly successful entrepreneur. People who need to be thrown together in a room in order to network probably don’t have the necessary proactive disposition to start their own business.


  • #46
    vinnyme
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37 ✭vinnyme


    maninasia wrote: »
    I'm intrigued. I've heard Ireland is 'really good at' clean-tech and renewable energy industry. In fact what exactly is 'clean tech'?
    What are the examples?

    We have 'lots of potential'. So where is it exactly?

    Didn't we have a company called Airtricity which built itself up and then they sold themselves off to a multinational?
    How many wind turbines do we produce in Ireland?
    Can we make money off all these renewable resources without increasing our internal electricity costs significantly?


    Well the two that spring to mind are wavebob and openhydro. Have a google. The potential, as it has been discussed in a roundabout way beforehand, is that it is bulky, labor intensive work. Airtricity as far as I can remember were onlyo a reseller. We make turbines in Ireland but they are quite small. The turbine isn't the challenge - its the blades. We could theoretically throw a load of money at tidal/wave power but the infrastructure costs are pretty high. The good thing about tidal is the currents never really fluctuate, which was a major problem in wind farms.


  • #47
    Agent Weebley
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 450 ✭✭Agent Weebley


    Platitudes from Richard Bruton about determination and creating a powerful engine cannot be taken seriously, when the backdrop to his speech is austerity, which is, in actuality, monetary septic shock. He should aspire to quit, taking the rest of the parasites with him, so we indigenous people*** can be free to solve the "government problem" on our own. Bruton has no "Master Plan." All government wants to do is to continue the parasitic relationship, while touting it as a symbiotic relationship. They do this by endless mindless platitudes about solving problems they created in the first place!

    If governments had not thrown up trade barriers in the first place, then there would be no need for a trading block, such as the Common Market . . . I mean the European Community . . . I mean the European Union. 200 years ago, everyone traded happily, until special interest groups that could not compete under free trade were able force a barrier to be erected, so their stuff now had a captive market. Ever read any Bastiat?

    Sure, high tech sounds sexy, but Quantum Computing, Qubits, and Human Turing Machines are poised to turn the computer industry on its ear.

    Low tech has low barriers to entry. Take Stirling Engines and attached generators, pumps or tranny gearboxes as a prime example of almost free energy that can be mobilised for manufacture rather quickly. All that is missing is the means of trade, which is money.

    Imagine: a Turing Machine pops out an answer to the current woes: use Game Theory to understand where to go from here.

    I apologise if you feel I did not add to the conversation here, but talk is definitely cheap, and something must be done quite quickly. Game Theory demands that all parties are aware of the Great Game that is being played. We cannot continue, unless the Austerity Game is not fully explained.

    Could the Mod please open the recently closed We Don't Know What Austerity Is thread? That thread got onto twisted tracks. Give me 7 days to get it steamin' and a roliin' . . .

    ***indigenous includes 80 million diaspora


  • #48
    djpbarry
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    Agent Weebley wrote: »
    200 years ago, everyone traded happily...
    I read your post up to this point, after which it was nigh on impossible to take you seriously.


  • #49
    Agent Weebley
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 450 ✭✭Agent Weebley


    You're not giving me much to go on, djpbarry . . . did you take issue in what I said, the way I said it, or . . . did you like, laugh at my premise or something? I am a pretty serious guy, but life's too short to not dispense with the doom and gloom by making the Rx a little less wooden.

    I guess you could say I am a student of the spoonful of sugar makes the medicine go down school?

    Even though you may be thinking I may be some sort of Mr. Potato Head, I promise to pop on on my serious face as best I can . . . if you open up that thread again. I could easily bring the subject back on track if someone tried to throw a chain under the wheels, or change the points, or, heaven forbid, just try to stoke me by being a doubting Thomas The Tank Engine for laying down a parallel train of thought . . . a scenic route with signposts indicating how the "Powers That Be" like to label things to add credence or legitimise nonsensical concepts, such as Anthropomorphic Global Warming Climate Change, or Too Big To Fail, or Quantitative Easing, or Austerity, but to name a few.

    I happen to be a trained home economist, so I default to adding a little sugar to bring a little HO HO HO into the mix.


  • #50
    antoobrien
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    Agent Weebley wrote: »
    I happen to be a trained home economist

    The you'll know that the "trade" you were referring to 200 years ago was actually colonialism/imperialism and not anything close to modern trade.


  • #51
    southsiderosie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,565 ✭✭✭southsiderosie


    MOD NOTE:
    Agent Weebley wrote: »
    Could the Mod please open the recently closed We Don't Know What Austerity Is thread? That thread got onto twisted tracks. Give me 7 days to get it steamin' and a roliin' . . .

    No.
    Agent Weebley wrote: »
    You're not giving me much to go on, djpbarry . . . did you take issue in what I said, the way I said it, or . . . did you like, laugh at my premise or something? I am a pretty serious guy, but life's too short to not dispense with the doom and gloom by making the Rx a little less wooden.

    I guess you could say I am a student of the spoonful of sugar makes the medicine go down school?

    Even though you may be thinking I may be some sort of Mr. Potato Head, I promise to pop on on my serious face as best I can . . . if you open up that thread again. I could easily bring the subject back on track if someone tried to throw a chain under the wheels, or change the points, or, heaven forbid, just try to stoke me by being a doubting Thomas The Tank Engine for laying down a parallel train of thought . . . a scenic route with signposts indicating how the "Powers That Be" like to label things to add credence or legitimise nonsensical concepts, such as Anthropomorphic Global Warming Climate Change, or Too big To Fail, or Quantitative Easing, or Austerity, but to name a few.

    I happen to be a trained home economist, so I default to adding a little sugar to bring a little HO HO HO into the mix.

    Erm, what?

    1) djpbarry is a moderator, but not in this forum. So he can't open anything for you.

    2) It is a site wide rule that moderation is not discussed on thread. Send a moderator a private message if you have a question or issue.

    3) If you can 'easily' bring this conversation back on track, then I encourage you to do so. Derailing threads via silliness or obfuscation is not looked upon kindly in this forum.


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  • #52
    Agent Weebley
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 450 ✭✭Agent Weebley


    Sorry about that, southsiderosie. I had no idea that djpbarry was not a Moderator on this forum, or that my request was actionable.

    I've never started a thread before; I am new here. I will PM my request and proper apology, with reasoning.

    . . . and I promise not to crack any more jokes.


  • #53
    Agent Weebley
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 450 ✭✭Agent Weebley


    antoobrien wrote: »
    The you'll know that the "trade" you were referring to 200 years ago was actually colonialism/imperialism and not anything close to modern trade.

    Hi antoobrien,

    I'm not quite sure what you mean by "modern trade." Are you referring to digital currencies as being "modern?" Maybe you could define it for me?

    I would say colonialism/imperialism is alive and kicking today (see Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya . . . as well as Portugal, Italy, Ireland, Greece and Spain.) You still trade under these barbaric conditions. Does that make you complicit? I don't think so, myself. Therefore, people from the past should not be generalised as being complicit in the actions of a few bad people.

    Plus, trade and colonialism/imperialism are actually mutually exclusive, since forcing yourself on another is stealing, rather than trading.

    I picked 200 years ago as a safe date in the past where governments had much less central control over trade between people at the street level. Most trade these days is price fixed by laws, taxes, centralised services, and political interference . . . yet we still try to trade under these barbaric conditions.

    The best example of trade without interference is children trading with each other. They are completely oblivious to taxes, governments, loans from banks using fractional reserve lending - making the money supply grow exponentially, new currency "paper" issued with a corresponding amount of bond debt that accrues interest which also makes no mathematical sense, saving for their retirement, and colonialism/imperialism. Everything they own is an asset and tradeable (as long as Mum & Dad don't find out.)

    Anyway, the government stating they will create 20,000 new jobs is a joke. They can't even count properly. Their "full employment" number is 1,000,000* people too low, based on the OP's referenced article compared to the CIA Factbook. What are these 1,000,000 people doing?

    Governments don't create jobs . . . people do . . . we just need money to do it.

    *based on most 15-18 year olds being moved back into the child (dependent) bracket


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