Why Are Irish Rail Failing so badly

schemingbohemia · 09-08-2012 08:43AM

professore wrote: »

Cork - Dublin return 74 euro by train. 28 euro by aircoach to the airport, and quicker too when you take transfer time in account. No contest. I don't waste money.

You also don't bother checking for better deals if you book 3 days in advance, how far in advance do you book your flights?

yer man! · 09-08-2012 08:48AM

foggy_lad wrote: »

Those lines you claim are being "bastardised" have no passengers and never had enough passengers to make them viable!.

Because the line (WRC) is pure crap, far too slow, way more expensive and no online booking or even a way to check the price on certain days..... Even the feasibility study done for the Shannon spur said it was too slow in it's current state and needed a curve before Athenry to the Dublin - Galway mainline to speed it up.

LXFlyer · 09-08-2012 09:14AM

Cork-Dublin train booked 3 days in advance = € 43. Somewhat less than €74.

bk · 09-08-2012 09:39AM

lxflyer wrote: »

Cork-Dublin train booked 3 days in advance = € 43. Somewhat less than €74.

In fairness the walk up fair on the day is €77 and €80 if you book online.

The aircoach walk up And online fair is €22 to Dublin and €28 to the airport.

If you are going to the airport by Irish rail and book three days in advance it is minimum of €55 if you take the 747 and of course requires an inconvenient transfer and is slower then Aircoach.

So IR is still significantly more expensive even if booked 3 days in advance.

LXFlyer · 09-08-2012 10:10AM

What is inconvenient about walking from the train to the front of Heuston Station? That is making a mountain out of a molehill. Also an Airlink return ticket is €10 not €12.

I'm not denying that the bus is cheaper, it is of course, but frankly there is a serious lack of balance in some of the comments here by deliberately choosing the dearest possible fares to use in arguments when there is a range of cheaper alternatives freely available.

The vast majority of Intercity journeys such as these are not spur of the moment decisions, and therefore the cheaper fares could be booked.

markpb · 09-08-2012 10:22AM

lxflyer wrote: »

I'm not denying that the bus is cheaper, it is of course, but frankly there is a serious lack of balance in some of the comments here by deliberately choosing the dearest possible most flexible and convenient fares to use in arguments when there is a range of cheaper alternatives freely available.

Maybe this is why people compare the walk up fare?

Likewise, people on the other side always pick the cheapest online fare when talking about cheap the train can be. This fare might only be available at inconvenient times or for a small number of seats. The average fare actually paid by passengers would be a better figure to use but I'm guessing IR won't tell us what that is.

V_Moth · 09-08-2012 10:23AM

Solair wrote: »

To be honest...

Very well put. There are some many things that could have been done with the funds available in the last ten years, but weren't. Some points:

-Build a high-speed rail line (say max 200 -250Km/h) alongside the new motorways on the route Cork - Limerick - Galway - Dublin Airport - Belfast. This approach was taken with new lines built in Germany (Cologne-Frankfurt) and France.

-End the competition between Bus Eireann and IrishRail. Either scrap the railways and use the funds for a good bus service that serves all places in Ireland (and not just once weekly) or scrap Bus Eireann and have local bus services connecting with trains.

-Better planning should/could have prevented the sprawl of one-off housing which makes it more expensive to provide public transport to rural areas.

-Have more flexible ticketing.

n97 mini · 09-08-2012 10:25AM

lxflyer wrote: »

What is inconvenient about walking from the train to the front of Heuston Station?

It's less convenient than not having to get off at all until your final destination, but I think you know that already.

LXFlyer · 09-08-2012 10:27AM

markpb wrote: »

Maybe this is why people compare the walk up fare?

Likewise, people on the other side always pick the cheapest online fare when talking about cheap the train can be. This fare might only be available at inconvenient times or for a small number of seats. The average fare actually paid by passengers would be a better figure to use but I'm guessing IR won't tell us what that is.

But the point is that the fare I quoted above is not restricted to a small number of seats. It is freely available on every train and every seat is priced the same, provided people book 3 days in advance.

LXFlyer · 09-08-2012 10:30AM

n97 mini wrote: »

It's less convenient than not having to get off at all until your final destination, but I think you know that already.

There is a difference between less convenient and inconvenient.

I don't disagree about the former, but I certainly disagree with the latter.

n97 mini · 09-08-2012 10:31AM

lxflyer wrote: »

The vast majority of Intercity journeys such as these are not spur of the moment decisions, and therefore the cheaper fares could be booked.

While you may be right, that's a purely speculative comment.

If I were to speculate like that I would say the majority are decided upon on the day of travel or the day before. I'd also speculate that a lot of people, such as tourists, don't realise how expensive the train is until they "rock up" to the counter in the station and get stiffed by the attendant.

n97 mini · 09-08-2012 10:32AM

lxflyer wrote: »

There is a difference between less convenient and inconvenient.

And getting off a train and waiting for a bus might be too inconvenient to some people, especially anyone used to getting the bus from start to finish in the first place.

LXFlyer · 09-08-2012 10:41AM

n97 mini wrote: »

While you may be right, that's a purely speculative comment.

If I were to speculate like that I would say the majority are decided upon on the day of travel or the day before. I'd also speculate that a lot of people, such as tourists, don't realise how expensive the train is until they "rock up" to the counter in the station and get stiffed by the attendant.

Frankly I think you do most people a disservice with that comment.

If I were visiting somewhere as a tourist I'd always research the fares and times online before I travelled, and so would most of my friends/colleagues. I certainly wouldn't leave it until the day I travelled.

As I said above all I am saying is that a bit of balance is needed in some of the arguments rather than making sweeping generalisations.

The Idyll Race · 09-08-2012 10:53AM

yer man! wrote: »

Because the line (WRC) is pure crap, far too slow, way more expensive and no online booking or even a way to check the price on certain days..... Even the feasibility study done for the Shannon spur said it was too slow in it's current state and needed a curve before Athenry to the Dublin - Galway mainline to speed it up.

Ennis - Athenry was rebuilt grudgingly by Irish Rail and under orders, and it was deliberately set up to fail. Oliver Doyle is scathing about it in the current IRRS journal, so even the Official Enthusiasts are damning it.

The hilarious thing is that the Maynooth commuter service was set up in the same grudging way in 1981 with poor intervals and *spectacularly* rubbish rolling stock that would have been rejected by Stalinist Russia as being a touch on the uncomfortable side. It took ten years to improve. I'm not suggesting that Ennis - Athenry will have a resurrection, probably not, but just to point out that CIE has serious form in implementing political decisions under protest.

Losty Dublin · 09-08-2012 11:01AM

n97 mini wrote: »

If I were to speculate like that I would say the majority are decided upon on the day of travel or the day before. I'd also speculate that a lot of people, such as tourists, don't realise how expensive the train is until they "rock up" to the counter in the station and get stiffed by the attendant.

If you were to go anywhere at the last minute, most people would rather their chances on getting a seat on the next train than on the next bus.

Mind you, seeing as you mention tourists and prices, having dealt with a lot of them over the years the overall impression with train fares here are that they are broadly in line with other countries worldwide and far cheaper than in the privatised UK system. Tourists tend to plan out a route of where to go so if anything they will be better prepared than asome local travelers, as LX has inferred.

gawker · 09-08-2012 11:25AM

Three weeks into my commuting and I have to admit I'm pretty happy with the service Irish Rail provide. It’s usually reasonably on time and the trains are nice (although I miss the old ones for their cosiness!)

From my limited experience so far, the two things that hold them back from a customer experience perspective are:

-Information: As my thread in this forum showed, IR aren’t so great at information. I now know my train has six cars rather than the three most others departing Newbridge have around that time. Apart from that I’d be just taking wild guesses. Clearly little things like that can lead people to get annoyed with the service before they even board the train.

-Cost: I know that the rail service needs plenty of investment and has debts to pay, but stop increasing fares already! When I tell people I commute by train they look at me like I am crazy because they were previously put off by the price. The convenience factor wins out for me but the majority of people will happily go by bus when the train costs nearly twice as much.

The information aspect can be fixed with a bit of initiative. I guess the price rises will continue with subsidies falling along with customer numbers. That is sad because no matter how good the service, people hate paying too much.

foggy_lad · 09-08-2012 12:59PM

yer man! wrote: »

Because the line (WRC) is pure crap, far too slow, way more expensive and no online booking or even a way to check the price on certain days..... Even the feasibility study done for the Shannon spur said it was too slow in it's current state and needed a curve before Athenry to the Dublin - Galway mainline to speed it up.

There will never be enough people living along the length of the WRC to provide enough passengers to justify reopening it or keeping it open at such a massive cost to the taxpayer.

lxflyer wrote: »

Cork-Dublin train booked 3 days in advance = € 43. Somewhat less than €74.

cork to heuston €80 then add on the taxi fare to the airport or the extra time and money for the Luas to Dublin city centre. The bus is cheaper all round, generally more comfortable and faster and less hassle to the airport

lxflyer wrote: »

Frankly I think you do most people a disservice with that comment.

If I were visiting somewhere as a tourist I'd always research the fares and times online before I travelled, and so would most of my friends/colleagues. I certainly wouldn't leave it until the day I travelled.

As I said above all I am saying is that a bit of balance is needed in some of the arguments rather than making sweeping generalisations.

many tourists are students and they do not plan anything as daddy will pay, they don't look into booking online three days in advance because they don't think more than a few minutes ahead.

man98 · 09-08-2012 02:03PM

Irish Rail are failing so badly because while Rosslare - Waterford was open the train that left 15 mins after to Fishguard boat came in, making it impossible to use SailRail, and if you wanted to go to Galway it would take 13 hours! There was a 4 hour wait in Waterford, 40 mins in Limerick Junc. and I'm not sure how long you had to wait in Limerick. My point is that it would to take 5 hours by car (I've driven it)

yer man! · 09-08-2012 02:13PM

lxflyer wrote: »

Frankly I think you do most people a disservice with that comment.

If I were visiting somewhere as a tourist I'd always research the fares and times online before I travelled, and so would most of my friends/colleagues. I certainly wouldn't leave it until the day I travelled.

As I said above all I am saying is that a bit of balance is needed in some of the arguments rather than making sweeping generalisations.

Ya fair enough I'd research the trains before I go on holidays, I did for the netherlands two weeks ago. I certainly never thought of buying the tickets online in case the flight was delayed or whatever. There the price is always the same, you just purchase at the machine when you want to go (this encouraged me to use it more also). Imagine if you were a tourist coming to Dublin and you decide to go to Galway for the day or the night or whatever, you're probably not going to go online and book a ticket for an exact time well in advance before even getting to the country. So many things can happen when you're on holidays, you may decide to stay an extra day somewhere or not feel up to travelling somewhere at all, it is a holiday, you're on it to relax and do things when you want not have everything planned out day by day well in advance.

yer man! · 09-08-2012 02:23PM

foggy_lad wrote: »

There will never be enough people living along the length of the WRC to provide enough passengers to justify reopening it or keeping it open at such a massive cost to the taxpayer.

Not along the length of it, at either end of it...... hence express services on buses do better than the buses that stop everywhere.

I drive this road everyday, one thing that I do notice is that the buses are doing very well, there's always a lot of people on them, either Galway or Limerick bound. They are cheaper and faster. If the train was faster than the bus and not much more expensive I assure you there would be more people using it. Right now it's just far too slow so why bother.

schemingbohemia · 09-08-2012 02:23PM

n97 mini wrote: »

While you may be right, that's a purely speculative comment.

If I were to speculate like that I would say the majority are decided upon on the day of travel or the day before. I'd also speculate that a lot of people, such as tourists, don't realise how expensive the train is until they "rock up" to the counter in the station and get stiffed by the attendant.

The person who posted was comparing Aircoach to Irish Rail and a trip to the airport - that's precisely why I asked how far in advance they booked their plane, if they booked their plane fare on the day the cost of the train would be the least of their worries.

end of the road · 09-08-2012 02:54PM

The Idyll Race wrote: »

Ennis - Athenry was rebuilt grudgingly by Irish Rail
The hilarious thing is that the Maynooth commuter service was set up in the same grudging way in 1981
CIE has serious form in grudgingly implementing political decisions.

CIE/IE grudgingly runs the railway full stop. they would rather play property developer, but now days property is no longer the gold mine it once was.

ArmaniJeanss · 09-08-2012 03:38PM

yer man! wrote: »

Imagine if you were a tourist coming to Dublin and you decide to go to Galway for the day or the night or whatever, you're probably not going to go online and book a ticket for an exact time well in advance before even getting to the country. So many things can happen when you're on holidays, you may decide to stay an extra day somewhere or not feel up to travelling somewhere at all, it is a holiday, you're on it to relax and do things when you want not have everything planned out day by day well in advance.

If going from one city to another city 3 or 4 hours train journey away I'd always book in advance, or do research to see if its required or cheaper to do so.

European countries have different on/off peak fares and different levels of train with expresses being more expensive than multi stops, and discounts for online and advance bookings.

I doubt the average European tourist is going to expect a best-price bargain fare on the very next departure, and will know from their own systems that
the more orgainsed you are the cheaper you will get.

LeftBlank · 09-08-2012 03:40PM

yer man! wrote: »

Ya fair enough I'd research the trains before I go on holidays, I did for the netherlands two weeks ago. I certainly never thought of buying the tickets online in case the flight was delayed or whatever. There the price is always the same, you just purchase at the machine when you want to go (this encouraged me to use it more also). Imagine if you were a tourist coming to Dublin and you decide to go to Galway for the day or the night or whatever, you're probably not going to go online and book a ticket for an exact time well in advance before even getting to the country. So many things can happen when you're on holidays, you may decide to stay an extra day somewhere or not feel up to travelling somewhere at all, it is a holiday, you're on it to relax and do things when you want not have everything planned out day by day well in advance.

I would argue that people from Europe are used to the Irish Rail model of fares (earlier you book == cheaper the ticket) and might well decide to go online and purchase a ticket.

LXFlyer · 09-08-2012 03:44PM

yer man! wrote: »

Ya fair enough I'd research the trains before I go on holidays, I did for the netherlands two weeks ago. I certainly never thought of buying the tickets online in case the flight was delayed or whatever. There the price is always the same, you just purchase at the machine when you want to go (this encouraged me to use it more also). Imagine if you were a tourist coming to Dublin and you decide to go to Galway for the day or the night or whatever, you're probably not going to go online and book a ticket for an exact time well in advance before even getting to the country. So many things can happen when you're on holidays, you may decide to stay an extra day somewhere or not feel up to travelling somewhere at all, it is a holiday, you're on it to relax and do things when you want not have everything planned out day by day well in advance.

So you'd not bother researching whether rail rover tickets exist allowing unlimited travel or indeed if clicking onto www.irishrail.ie looking at the web sale advert on their front page?

Funny that - I would always check out www.seat61.com for the best advice on getting cheaper tickets and then proceed to the individual company websites.

Particularly given these harder times I would think most people would search for the cheapest possible options.

Saruman · 09-08-2012 04:00PM

Markcheese wrote: »

Why do we need a rail service ? Apart from commuter services... I mean motorways/ mainroads mean coaches could/can go most places quickly and comfortably.... With a lot more flexibility ... Should the intercity service go the way of the canals, in Ireland at any rate.....
Or should IE just run the permanent way, and farm out running the trains to who ever can make the service work and pay ......

Capacity, comfort, reliability of service.

You can only fit so many people on a bus. The roads are only reliable in the motorway parts. Once you hit the cities you are at the mercy of traffic where a train should not be.
Trains have space, you can take a walk and stretch your legs. Toilets are a big bonus too. Some buses have them but not all and even then, there is only one cramped toilet and a train has a number of decent sized toilets.

Trains are just a nicer place to be as well.

The problem with trains here are the price. They are ridiculous. Unless you get lucky and get a deal or book 28 days in advance it can cost a stupid amount of money.
Dublin to Cork is a prime example. I like to go to the beer festivals there. It can cost nearly €80 or €90 for a day return making it cheaper to drive and stay in a B&B.

LeftBlank · 09-08-2012 04:07PM

Saruman wrote: »

The problem with trains here are the price. They are ridiculous. Unless you get lucky and get a deal or book 28 days in advance it can cost a stupid amount of money.

The cheapest fares are now available up to 3 days in advance, guaranteed. e.g. Dublin-Cork return is 43 euro once booked more than 3 days in advance (not 28 days)

foggy_lad · 09-08-2012 04:54PM

LeftBlank wrote: »

The cheapest fares are now available up to 3 days in advance, guaranteed. e.g. Dublin-Cork return is 43 euro once booked more than 3 days in advance (not 28 days)

Add on the Luas fare each way and the aircoach is less than half the price and just as fast and comfortable and with a lot more services and less chance of the old CIE reliability chestnut conkering you

Saruman · 09-08-2012 05:23PM

LeftBlank wrote: »

The cheapest fares are now available up to 3 days in advance, guaranteed. e.g. Dublin-Cork return is 43 euro once booked more than 3 days in advance (not 28 days)

Temporary though. If it was to stay that way now.... I can imagine 3 days notice as reasonable but 28 days is not, for me anyway.

LXFlyer · 09-08-2012 05:50PM

Well it is until further notice rather than a fixed date.

Why Are Irish Rail Failing so badly

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