Formula 1 2012: General Discussion Thread

Jordan 199 · 25-07-2012 2:44pm

counterlock wrote: »

Not really true, he really bent over backwards for Honda, getting Sato in and as far as I remember, his two points in Japan lifted them ahead of BAR. I think the decline was when they lost the mugen. When they were given the works engines along with BAR, there was only ever going to be one winner.

I think myself that Honda forced EJ to take on Sato in order for Honda to keep supplying engines to Jordan.

Reminds me of Williams & Honda in 1987. Honda said to Williams that if Williams wanted to keep the Honda engines for 1988, they would have to take on Satoru Nakajima who would partner Nigel Mansell for the 1988 season.

Frank Wiliams told Honda in no uncertain terms to get lost and Williams lost the Honda engines and had to make do with normally aspirated Judd V8's for the '88 season.

Nakajima ended up in Lotus in '88 alongside Piquet.

25-07-2012 3:56pm

Nurburgring bankrupt, wonder what that'll do for next season.

Jordan 199 · 25-07-2012 4:10pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Nurburgring bankrupt, wonder what that'll do for next season.

I guess they'll keep the German GP at Hockenheim.

25-07-2012 4:14pm

**** that, have a race at Imola :pac:

counterlock · 25-07-2012 4:15pm

Jordan 191 wrote: »

I think myself that Honda forced EJ to take on Sato in order for Honda to keep supplying engines to Jordan.

Reminds me of Williams & Honda in 1987. Honda said to Williams that if Williams wanted to keep the Honda engines for 1988, they would have to take on Satoru Nakajima who would partner Nigel Mansell for the 1988 season.

Frank Wiliams told Honda in no uncertain terms to get lost and Williams lost the Honda engines and had to make do with normally aspirated Judd V8's for the '88 season.

Nakajima ended up in Lotus in '88 alongside Piquet.

That didn't end too well for Williams either! I was delighted to see them win again this year.

AFAIK Jordan sold the team to MF1 for about half of what they sold it on for, due to there being a dispute over a new concorde agreement at the time when he sold. Looking back at the 2004 grid only sauber (gone and back), mclaren, williams and ferrari are still on the grid today

Jordan 199 · 25-07-2012 4:34pm

counterlock wrote: »

That didn't end too well for Williams either! I was delighted to see them win again this year.

AFAIK Jordan sold the team to MF1 for about half of what they sold it on for, due to there being a dispute over a new concorde agreement at the time when he sold. Looking back at the 2004 grid only sauber (gone and back), mclaren, williams and ferrari are still on the grid today

Yeah, '88 was a bad year for Williams, but they managed to get the Renault motors for '89 and started to win again.

The owner of the Midland F1 team made a nice profit when he sold the team to Spyker.

As for the grid today, Force India. Don't forget they have Jordan DNA as EJ would tell you

PJTierney · 25-07-2012 5:11pm

I guess it depends on what's going on with endurance racing.

Audi are there right now.
Porsche will be soon.

Maybe VW would be what the F1 engines are badged as?

As Toyota (and to an extent Mercedes) have shown, it's probably a better idea to enter F1 as an engine supplier first before jumping in as a works team. Mercedes were with McLaren and others for over a decade before Merc became a works team and they're doing okay. Toyota went in at the deep end and failed.

counterlock · 25-07-2012 5:43pm

Jordan 191 wrote: »

As for the grid today, Force India. Don't forget they have Jordan DNA as EJ would tell you

They are as much Jordan as Torro Rosso is minardi imho and Mallya is a jerk. As soon as kingfisher folds, he'll be looking to sell the team on, wouldn't it be great for EJ to buy it back off him

Jordan 199 · 25-07-2012 5:49pm

OSI wrote: »

Wouldn't be surprised to see them bring the Porsche name in to F1, it's been rumored fairly recently.

VW don't own Porsche, but Porsche are the biggest shareholders in VW and have the majority voting rights on the VW board.

They'll be back in LeMans in 2014. Also on top of that, if Porsche were to build F1 engines, they may get an outside source to fund the project like TAG funded Porsche to build the turbo engines that McLaren used in the 80's.

PJTierney wrote: »

I guess it depends on what's going on with endurance racing.

Audi are there right now.
Porsche will be soon.

Maybe VW would be what the F1 engines are badged as?

I'm not so sure. VW are entering the WRC this year with the VW name, Audi name is in endurance racing, so I think if VW remain in those racing categories, they may choose a different brand for F1.

As Toyota (and to an extent Mercedes) have shown, it's probably a better idea to enter F1 as an engine supplier first before jumping in as a works team. Mercedes were with McLaren and others for over a decade before Merc became a works team and they're doing okay. Toyota went in at the deep end and failed.

Toyota were linked with Arrows in the late 90's.

vectra · 25-07-2012 8:27pm

Jordan 191 wrote: »

VW don't own Porsche, but Porsche are the biggest shareholders in VW and have the majority voting rights on the VW board.

Are you sure about that?

Then again, This could be all just talk :P

Volkswagen stepped up its efforts to become the world's number-one carmaker on Thursday by buying up the remaining part of Porsche that it did not already own, and in the process ended an epic takeover struggle between the two German brands.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2012/jul/05/volkswagen-buys-porsche

Jordan 199 · 25-07-2012 8:42pm

vectra wrote: »

Are you sure about that?

Then again, This could be all just talk :P

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2012/jul/05/volkswagen-buys-porsche

I was wrong so

Infoanon · 25-07-2012 9:11pm

Jordan 191 wrote: »

I was wrong so

Not completely - won't bore you all but basically Porsche became the most financially successful car maker of all time and 'could' have bought out VW - But 85% of its profit was from financial instruments.

F1 has being trying to lure VW since the '80s if not earlier but does F1 need VW ?? look at recent history - BMW / Toyota / Honda - all billion dollar failures and arguably F1 is better without them

The Porsche '84 engine was funded and was designed within specific John Barnard parameters.

The Porsche V12 used by Arrows on the other hand was an over weight disaster.

On the Lamborghini V12 - Ayrton Senna tested it and wanted to use it in place of the Ford V8s but it never came to pass

Infoanon · 25-07-2012 9:19pm

PJTierney wrote: »

As Toyota (and to an extent Mercedes) have shown, it's probably a better idea to enter F1 as an engine supplier first before jumping in as a works team. Mercedes were with McLaren and others for over a decade before Merc became a works team and they're doing okay. Toyota went in at the deep end and failed.

The 'Mercedes' engine was in fact an ilmor badged as a Mercedes.

25-07-2012 9:31pm

Infoanon wrote: »

The 'Mercedes' engine was in fact an ilmor badged as a Mercedes.

Would love to know how much Bernie had to do with Ilmor.

Jordan 199 · 26-07-2012 4:58pm

Infoanon wrote: »

The Porsche V12 used by Arrows on the other hand was an over weight disaster.

I read it weighed 180kg :eek: They were so bad that Arrows dumped them during the '91 season.

On the Lamborghini V12 - Ayrton Senna tested it and wanted to use it in place of the Ford V8s but it never came to pass

Indeed. McLaren opted for the Peugeot's and that deal was terminated after one season.

With McLaren rejecting the Lambo's, Larousse were to get them back for '94, but Chrysler sold Lamborghini to an Indonesian consortium who had no interest in F1. Larousse had to make do with Ford HB2 V8 motors for the '94 season.

Here's Senna testing the McLaren with the Lamborghini powerplant at Estoril in 1993:

Those Lambo engines had Chrysler badges on them for the test.

26-07-2012 10:57pm

Jordan 199 · 27-07-2012 12:53pm

^ What is that pic doing in this thread then, Buttonftw?

27-07-2012 12:55pm

It's Kimi from last weekend :P

vectra · 27-07-2012 2:02pm

Deleted User wrote: »

It's Kimi from last weekend :P

LOL

recyclebin · 27-07-2012 3:45pm

Can someone explain the kimi pictures for me? I'm not in on the joke. Did kimi do something in Germany?

Ghost Train · 27-07-2012 7:23pm

http://wtf1.co.uk/i-swear-to-drunk-im-not-god-kimis-fall-gets-photoshopped/

Kxiii · 27-07-2012 9:18pm

Ghost Train wrote: »

http://wtf1.co.uk/i-swear-to-drunk-im-not-god-kimis-fall-gets-photoshopped/

I saw this on the same site, made me laugh

Jordan 199 · 29-07-2012 5:46pm

Does anyone know what the air and track temperatures were for the race in Hockenheim last Sunday?

Need them so I can see how the McLaren performs in different temperatures.

mb1725 · 29-07-2012 11:10pm

Jordan 191 wrote: »

Does anyone know what the air and track temperatures were for the race in Hockenheim last Sunday?

Need them so I can see how the McLaren performs in different temperatures.

Track - 33 degrees, air 21 degrees. According to GP Update http://www.gpupdate.net/en/livefeed/5975/1670/

Goldstein · 01-08-2012 12:20am

So sick of hearing about the bloody tyres. "look after your tyres" = hold back. I want to see them driving full tilt on every lap like they always did - This slow and steady wins the race mentality we've had the last few years just feels all wrong. They're supposed to be the best drivers in the world - let them show it and let us watch it.

As for the "it makes it more exciting" argument, putting missiles on the cars would make it more exciting too but it doesn't mean they should do it.

Step 1: Get rid of the crap circuits where overtaking is almost impossible - Valencia, Bahrain, Abu Dhabi & Singapore - the night time novelty gets old fast when there's nothing interesting happening. Everyone likes Monaco but beyond the celebs and bling it's consistently the worst races of the year unless it's raining and there are loads of incidents - not a single on track overtake this year. I know it has to stay but they have to tweak/widen the circuit to at least have a remote possibility of overtaking.

Cookie_Monster · 01-08-2012 12:41am

Goldstein wrote: »

So sick of hearing about the bloody tyres. "look after your tyres" = hold back. I want to see them driving full tilt on every lap like they always did - This slow and steady wins the race mentality we've had the last few years just feels all wrong. They're supposed to be the best drivers in the world - let them show it and let us watch it.

As for the "it makes it more exciting" argument, putting missiles on the cars would make it more exciting too but it doesn't mean they should do it.

+1, crappy tyres have a lot to answer for this year.
it doesn't make it more exciting either, it ruins races.

To a certain extent it's the same with the rules making engines etc last. Get rid of them, we want full tilt racing, engines dramatically blowing up etc.

muckwarrior · 01-08-2012 12:38pm

Yes, lets go back to the days when 99% of overtaking was done in the pit lane. That was real racing!

Ghost Train · 02-08-2012 12:43am

Goldstein wrote: »

So sick of hearing about the bloody tyres. "look after your tyres" = hold back. I want to see them driving full tilt on every lap like they always did - This slow and steady wins the race mentality we've had the last few years just feels all wrong. They're supposed to be the best drivers in the world - let them show it and let us watch it.

As for the "it makes it more exciting" argument, putting missiles on the cars would make it more exciting too but it doesn't mean they should do it.

Step 1: Get rid of the crap circuits where overtaking is almost impossible - Valencia, Bahrain, Abu Dhabi & Singapore - the night time novelty gets old fast when there's nothing interesting happening. Everyone likes Monaco but beyond the celebs and bling it's consistently the worst races of the year unless it's raining and there are loads of incidents - not a single on track overtake this year. I know it has to stay but they have to tweak/widen the circuit to at least have a remote possibility of overtaking.

did you watch the Valencia race this year?

I think it's great that tyres are a factor again, way it should be. Although extra set of tyres might be a help

Plenty of entertaining monaco races wet and dry over the years

vectra · 02-08-2012 1:31am

Ghost Train wrote: »

did you watch the Valencia race this year?

I think it's great that tyres are a factor again, way it should be. Although extra set of tyres might be a help

Plenty of entertaining monaco races wet and dry over the years

Not sure about the extra set of tyres.. That way it would be a case of driving flat out all the time regardless.. Then it would a simple case of "The Fastest cars win"
Not much to do with driving skills and tactics.

PJTierney · 02-08-2012 3:27pm

Isn't that what happened in 2010? The Bridgestones were rock hard and Vettel did a full race distance on the Options at Monza on them. The Championship battle may have been interesting but the races themselves were significantly less so.

The issue I see with F1 at the moment is that it's extremely difficult to follow another car. Once you're a second behind any closer and you're riding in turbulent air, which disrupts the aerodynamic performance of your car, which in turn chews up the Pirellis faster and forces the chaser to drop back. At several points in Hungary for example you'd see a Lotus catch up to Hamilton, drop back, then catch up again. Raikkonen in particular was much faster at certain points, but because of how the cars are at the moment he couldn't possibly get near enough for a pass without destroying his race.

This fundamental flaw in car design is what's preventing the cars from truly getting close and battling with each other, and as such we're resorting to "livening up the show" with deliberately bad tyres and DRS.

Formula 1 2012: General Discussion Thread

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