Formula 1 2012: General Discussion Thread

Kevski

Seeing as the majority of goings on in Formula One these days are now related to the 2012 season, I thought it might be an idea to start a new thread!

So it's just been announced that Toro Rosso are to drop both Jaime Alguersuari and Sebastian Buemi in favour of Daniel Ricciardo and Jean Eric Vergne. Personally I'm shocked that they've dropped Alguersuari as he really upped his game this year and was consistently in the points in the second half of the season. It's going to be difficult for either of them to get a seat next season, considering the amount of drivers that are looking.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/96745

Daniel Ricciardo and Jean-Eric Vergne will race for the Toro Rosso team in the 2012 Formula 1 season, the team has announced.

The news means the duo will replace Sebastien Buemi and Jaime Alguersuari.

Toro Rosso said the decision to replace its current drivers was taken in conjunction with Red Bull.

It will be the first time since the team's 2006 debut that it will begin the year with an all new line-up.

"I am pleased that we have been able to reach an early decision on our drivers for next year, because it means we can all give our full attention to 2012, without any distractions," said team boss Franz Tost.

"Over the past year, both Daniel and Jean-Eric have proved their worth and I expect them to make a significant contribution to the team's performance next year. Daniel has the benefit of having actually raced in Grands Prix for much of this year, while Jean-Eric proved he could adapt quickly to the demands of driving a Formula 1 car.

"As they have both worked with the team and its engineers very recently, this should allow us to get up to speed right from the start of winter testing in a couple of months time."

Tost was thankful to Buemi and Alguersuari, but said it was Toro Rosso's duty to give new drivers a chance in Formula 1.

The duo had been with the team since the 2009 season.

"I must also thank Sebastien Buemi and Jaime Alguersuari for all their hard work over the past three seasons," added Tost.

"They have delivered some excellent performances which have helped the team move forward and develop. We wish them well for the future.

"However, one has to remember that when Scuderia Toro Rosso was established in 2005, it was done so with the intention of providing a first step into Formula 1 for the youngsters in the Red Bull Junior Driver programme.

"It is therefore part of the team's culture to change its driver line-up from time to time in order to achieve this goal."

Australian Ricciardo, who was the team's third driver this year, made his grand prix debut with the HRT team this season, impressing with his performances alongside the more experienced Tonio Liuzzi.

"This is a really big deal for me and something I have wanted ever since I was driving for Toro Rosso on Friday mornings at the races in the first part of last season," he said.

"To be honest, I am still jumping up and down with excitement at the news. In the second half of 2011 I learned a lot from the people I worked with, racing in eleven Grands Prix and I want to thank them for the opportunity they gave me.

"I have to say that joining Scuderia Toro Rosso was always my real goal, so a big thank you to Red Bull for giving me this fantastic opportunity and now I can't wait to get to work once testing begins."

Vergne will become the third Frenchman to race in Formula 1 in 2012, alongside Virgin's Charles Pic and Lotus's Romain Grosjean.

"First of all, I must thank Red Bull for all their support so far and for believing I am ready to take on the ultimate challenge of racing in Formula 1," Vergne said.

"Christmas has come early for me this year! Having driven for them a few times this year and also testing for Red Bull Racing in Abu Dhabi, I definitely feel ready to make the move, even if I know there is a big difference between testing and actually racing.

"I enjoyed working with the guys at Toro Rosso this year and I can't wait to be part of the team for real. Sitting on the grid in Melbourne next March cannot come soon enough."

TheChrisD

Maybe with all these drivers wanting a ride, maybe that would give room for a couple more teams into the sport in the next couple years? Maybe we could finally get back to the car counts of the early 90's?

Jordan 199

TheChrisD wrote: »

Maybe we could finally get back to the car counts of the early 90's?

Do you mean bringing back pre-qualifying? :eek:

TheChrisD

Jordan 191 wrote: »

Do you mean bringing back pre-qualifying? :eek:

Only if the FIA are wimps and decide that they need to weed out some of the slower traffic. I'd say, the more cars the better. Just look at GP2 and GP3 for examples.

Sheeps

Really looking forward to 2012 now.

fergal.b

As it's a general discussion I would love to see Rubens get a good drive next year "if he gets a drive"
Any other Rubens fans or am I just getting old.:D

cherryghost

Sure get Minardi and Tyrell back in for the lulz

amacachi

TheChrisD wrote: »

Only if the FIA are wimps and decide that they need to weed out some of the slower traffic. I'd say, the more cars the better. Just look at GP2 and GP3 for examples.

When people say "look at GP2" I assume it's referring to how it takes the F1 cars half the race before they go quicker than the GP2 cars. :pac:


Personally I'd be more than happy if Red Bull/Merc/Williams/Ferrari were allowed build customer chassis and the like. Obviously no-one wants a spec series but there's no problem in my eyes with up to 30 cars once they're not 6-7 seconds a lap off the pace.

Jordan 199

Enderman wrote: »

Sure get Minardi and Tyrell back in for the lulz

If there are any teams you want back for 'lulz', I suggest teams that scraped the ass of a barrell such as Andrea Moda or Life.

Jordan 199

amacachi wrote: »

Personally I'd be more than happy if Red Bull/Merc/Williams/Ferrari were allowed build customer chassis and the like. Obviously no-one wants a spec series but there's no problem in my eyes with up to 30 cars once they're not 6-7 seconds a lap off the pace.

I disagree. Every team should build their own chassis. And as for teams that run at a snails pace, pre-qualifying or the 107% rule should sort them out.

amacachi

Jordan 191 wrote: »

I disagree. Every team should build their own chassis. And as for teams that run at a snails pace, pre-qualifying or the 107% rule should sort them out.

Meh, I'm more interested in entertainment than the "purity" of the sport tbh. Would like to see full grids of competitive cars.


Just out of interest, what's the craic with the FOTA split? Who's been bitching about what?

Glico Man

Enderman wrote: »

Sure get Minardi and Tyrell back in for the lulz

If Minardi are coming back then I want, nay, I demand the return of the Japanese legend that is Ukyo Katayama! I'll always remember F1 1997 on the PS1 with himself and Trulli as teammates and constantly getting in my way. Hero :pac:

I'll never forget him saying something along the lines of "I could do more with the car. The problem is my driving."

RayM

aaronh007 wrote: »

If Minardi are coming back then I want, nay, I demand the return of the Japanese legend that is Ukyo Katayama! I'll always remember F1 1997 on the PS1 with himself and Trulli as teammates and constantly getting in my way. Hero :pac:

I'll never forget him saying something along the lines of "I could do more with the car. The problem is my driving."

Katayama was a bit of a hero. And he could have been a great driver. He had a great season in 1994, scoring 5 points in a Tyrrell (it would have been a lot more, but for a string of engine failures), but was was subsequently diagnosed with a rare form of cancer in his back. It wasn't immediately life-threatening, so he delayed treatment until after his career ended. Because of this, in 1995, he (apparently) turned down a deal to drive alongside Schumacher at Benetton.

He's a mountain climber now.

Jordan 199

RayM wrote: »

Katayama was a bit of a hero. And he could have been a great driver. He had a great season in 1994, scoring 5 points in a Tyrrell (it would have been a lot more, but for a string of engine failures), but was was subsequently diagnosed with a rare form of cancer in his back. It wasn't immediately life-threatening, so he delayed treatment until after his career ended. Because of this, in 1995, he (apparently) turned down a deal to drive alongside Schumacher at Benetton.

He's a mountain climber now.

I think people probably made the connection between Benetton and Katayama because Mild Seven were Benettons main sponsor and Katayama bought Mild Seven money to Tyrrell and Minardi. He would never have gotten a drive at Benetton anyway as he wasn't good enough to be in a top team. Wasn't a bad driver though.

Katayama's biggest achievement was finishing 2nd in LeMans in 1999 driving for the works Toyota team. Could have won had it not been for a puncture.

Jordan 199

LIGHTNING wrote: »

All new lineup for STR,

"The Faenza-based squad revealed yesterday that Daniel Ricciardo and Jean-Eric Vergne would replace Alguersuari and team-mate Sebastien Buemi from next year, in a surprising move by Red Bull's junior outfit"

That news is a serious kick in the teeth for Alguersuari. STR should have kept him in one seat and given the other to Riccardo. The only place I can see Alguersuari going to is HRT.

Jordan 199

fergal.b wrote: »

As it's a general discussion I would love to see Rubens get a good drive next year "if he gets a drive"
Any other Rubens fans or am I just getting old.:D

The days of Rubens getting a good drive are long gone I'm afraid. I don't see him in F1 next year as his seat will go to Sutil.

TheChrisD

LIGHTNING wrote: »

All new lineup for STR,

"The Faenza-based squad revealed yesterday that Daniel Ricciardo and Jean-Eric Vergne would replace Alguersuari and team-mate Sebastien Buemi from next year, in a surprising move by Red Bull's junior outfit"

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/96747

It's about time. Like they said, STR was supposed to be about giving young drivers in the Red Bull program some F1 seat time. Jaime and Buemi had been there for three years now, honestly they should have been ousted last year.

cocalolaman

I dont get the big deal about Riccardo, he hasn't been massively impressive IMO. He's basically the same as any other driver that has driven for HRT. No one can show their true talent there, including Liuzzi, so I don't see why Riccardo should get the race seat with SRT.

amacca

amacachi wrote: »

Meh, I'm more interested in entertainment than the "purity" of the sport tbh. Would like to see full grids of competitive cars.

To me...what you would like to see would represent purity (I presume it would be for you too given the inverted commas)

it would be purer racing if the machinery they were racing was more closely matched and the outcome was even more down to individual skill and bravery than which cars have the biggest budget behind them

not that I don't appreciate the engineering/technical skill, design genius, innovation and sheer sneakiness when it comes to exploiting loopholes in the regulations elements of the sport either mind

I'd just like to see more balls out head to head stuff throughout the course of a race sometimes

amacachi

My inverted commas are because a lot of people see the engineering side as being as important as the driving. For me a bit of realism would be better since there's never more than 3 or 4 teams with half-decent cars.

Jordan 199

amacca wrote: »

it would be purer racing if the machinery they were racing was more closely matched and the outcome was even more down to individual skill and bravery than which cars have the biggest budget behind them

Indeed. If you want to take it further, the best way to compare drivers is give them all equal equipment.

amacachi

Jordan 191 wrote: »

Indeed. If you want to take it further, the best way to compare drivers is give them all equal equipment.

Aye but I think that would be going a little bit too far the other way. I still like the development race and so on but it when it effectively rules out 70% or more of the field from even having a chance of winning a race all year.
Having say 4 constructors with paying customers would allow lower costs with better performance for the less well-funded teams while allowing the constructors more scope for research and development with the extra funds they get.

Of course before any of that the main thing I want is something with the new engines, unlimited pressure in the turbo. Let them use the engines as much as they want with a risk for doing so. The excellent reliability of the last couple of years annoys me. :pac:

Jordan 199

amacachi wrote: »

Having say 4 constructors with paying customers would allow lower costs with better performance for the less well-funded teams while allowing the constructors more scope for research and development with the extra funds they get.

Of course before any of that the main thing I want is something with the new engines, unlimited pressure in the turbo. Let them use the engines as much as they want with a risk for doing so. The excellent reliability of the last couple of years annoys me. :pac:

Who would you get to build the chassis?

I agree about the reliability. I remember back when there were works engines, an engine maker would bring a new engine to a GP, only for the engine to blow up in qualifying or the race.

As for the turbo engines, there won't be any unlimited pressure as far as I can see.

One of the reasons turbos were done away within the sport in the 80's was that when pop-off valves were introduced, the FIA thought teams were tampering with them.

And as for unreliable turbo engines, the Cosworth Turbo V6's in the Benetton B187 liked to expire alot from what I recall reading about them.

amacachi

Jordan 191 wrote: »

Who would you get to build the chassis?

I agree about the reliability. I remember back when there were works engines, an engine maker would bring a new engine to a GP, only for the engine to blow up in qualifying or the race.

As for the turbo engines, there won't be any unlimited pressure as far as I can see.

One of the reasons turbos were done away within the sport in the 80's was that when pop-off valves were introduced, the FIA thought teams were tampering with them.

And as for unreliable turbo engines, the Cosworth Turbo V6's in the Benetton B187 liked to expire alot from what I recall reading about them.

Let anyone who wants to build a chassis build one and let others buy them. At the moment the idea would be that Red Bull, McLaren, Ferrari, Williams and Mercedes would probably want to build their own chassis. Why not let them build for customer teams as well instead of those other teams spending tonnes of money on crap technology when they could be funding extra breakthroughs. More competitive teams while innovation continues if not increases.
If it was a very open formula I would accept there'd always be a chance that a small team could come up with something innovative but it's never going to be much more open than it is now and so much is spent just on making everything meet safety and sporting standards that outside of the top teams there's little budget left to try any worthwhile new ideas.

On the engines I know they'll never open it up again, I just really would love if they did. :pac:

Jordan 199

amacachi wrote: »

Let anyone who wants to build a chassis build one and let others buy them. At the moment the idea would be that Red Bull, McLaren, Ferrari, Williams and Mercedes would probably want to build their own chassis.

Probably? The bloody well want to lol. I couldn't see any of those teams not building there own chassis.

Why not let them build for customer teams as well instead of those other teams spending tonnes of money on crap technology when they could be funding extra breakthroughs. More competitive teams while innovation continues if not increases.

I agree. But could you imagine the fuss if a mid grid team purchased a chassis for example from one of those top teams you mentioned and out perform them?

If it was a very open formula I would accept there'd always be a chance that a small team could come up with something innovative but it's never going to be much more open than it is now and so much is spent just on making everything meet safety and sporting standards that outside of the top teams there's little budget left to try any worthwhile new ideas.

I'm 50/50 on this one. Remember those 'X-Wings' that the Tyrrell team came up with and some top teams adopted them?

On the engines I know they'll never open it up again, I just really would love if they did. :pac:

I agree.

Jordan 199

LIGHTNING wrote: »

Back in the days of 1400hp Turbo`s the engine would just last for qualifying. I remember reading about a driver doing a test weekend (cant remember who it was) at Paul Ricard and he went though over a two dozen engines in one test weekend alone.

24 engines in a test weekend :eek:. Incredible.

Would the driver have been Thierry Boutsen?

amacachi

Jordan 191 wrote: »

Probably? The bloody well want to lol. I couldn't see any of those teams not building there own chassis.

I was saying that they'd be the most likely to want to build their own chassis, doubt any others would.

I agree. But could you imagine the fuss if a mid grid team purchased a chassis for example from one of those top teams you mentioned and out perform them?

Already happening with Renault and Mercedes engines. That's what I like about it, it wouldn't kill the politics between the teams in any way.

I'm 50/50 on this one. Remember those 'X-Wings' that the Tyrrell team came up with and some top teams adopted them?

And then they were banned. :pac: The trouble is that now most innovation in aero is down to wind tunnel testing and so on. With the current (and likely future) formula it's about incremental improvement. Obviously there's always going to be a possibility that someone will take a guess at something that turns out to be amazing but it's far less likely now.
We all love the idea of someone coming up with something groundbreaking (I have my own idea that I don't think is in any of the cars, I'm awaiting their calls :pac: ) and tack it on one weekend and dominate. That dream pretty much died over a decade ago as far as I can see.

Jordan 199

amacachi wrote: »

I was saying that they'd be the most likely to want to build their own chassis, doubt any others would.

That's what I meant in the last post, so sorry if my reply in the last post sounded abrupt.

Already happening with Renault and Mercedes engines. That's what I like about it, it wouldn't kill the politics between the teams in any way.

I was talking about chassis as distinct from engines. Supposedly a team purchased customer chassis from Ferrari and used a Mercedes engine and the team ended up doing better than Ferrari. You would have to wonder how Ferrari would feel about it.

And then they were banned.

As far as I remember, those X-Wings were banned simply on the ground of aesthetics.

The trouble is that now most innovation in aero is down to wind tunnel testing and so on. With the current (and likely future) formula it's about incremental improvement. Obviously there's always going to be a possibility that someone will take a guess at something that turns out to be amazing but it's far less likely now.
We all love the idea of someone coming up with something groundbreaking (I have my own idea that I don't think is in any of the cars, I'm awaiting their calls :pac: ) and tack it on one weekend and dominate. That dream pretty much died over a decade ago as far as I can see.

I remember when Jordan came up with a part for the Monaco GP in 2001, and was banned after testing. You are right about aero though. Cars are very reliant on having a good aero package. All about aero.

Great convo were having.

amacachi

Jordan 191 wrote: »

That's what I meant in the last post, so sorry if my reply in the last post sounded abrupt.

No bother.

I was talking about chassis as distinct from engines. Supposedly a team purchased customer chassis from Ferrari and used a Mercedes engine and the team ended up doing better than Ferrari. You would have to wonder how Ferrari would feel about it.

Aye but like I said it's already happening somewhat and it's that kind of stuff that makes the team rivalry as much fun as it is.

As far as I remember, those X-Wings were banned simply on the ground of aesthetics.

There'll always be a reason :pac:

I remember when Jordan came up with a part for the Monaco GP in 2001, and was banned after testing. You are right about aero though. Cars are very reliant on having a good aero package. All about aero.
What kind of part was it?
The funny thing is that there's plenty of posters here who could easily design a car that would have better downforce than modern F1 cars, it's just the rules that stand in the way.
The vast majority of the costs of designing a chassis comes before one is ever built. By building more it saves both the seller and the buyer money per unit. Obviously the price will depend on what someone's willing to pay. :pac:
What makes it sillier for me is that teams are already allowed to outsource design to other companies, I think Dallara did one of the new teams for 2010. If a team could instead just buy from another team it would bring more stability to the sport rather than funnel money to outside companies.
It would still be great then if a customer team did come across a little quirk of their car in the wind-tunnel and beat the works team. :pac:

Jordan 199

amacachi wrote: »

Aye but like I said it's already happening somewhat and it's that kind of stuff that makes the team rivalry as much fun as it is.

I agree. There's nothing like rivalry.

What kind of part was it?

It was an extra wing bit on by the nosecone. I'll try to dig up a picture of it later if I can find it.

The funny thing is that there's plenty of posters here who could easily design a car that would have better downforce than modern F1 cars, it's just the rules that stand in the way.
The vast majority of the costs of designing a chassis comes before one is ever built. By building more it saves both the seller and the buyer money per unit. Obviously the price will depend on what someone's willing to pay. :pac:
What makes it sillier for me is that teams are already allowed to outsource design to other companies, I think Dallara did one of the new teams for 2010. If a team could instead just buy from another team it would bring more stability to the sport rather than funnel money to outside companies.
It would still be great then if a customer team did come across a little quirk of their car in the wind-tunnel and beat the works team. :pac:

I don't think there is anything wrong with F1 teams getting another company to build cars to be honest. Happened in the 90's when Lola built cars for the Larousse and Scuderia Italia. Dallara also built cars for Scuderia Italia and they were involved when Honda setup their team in the late 90's.

Dallara built HRT's car last year, but the partnership didn't last very long.

Jordan 199

amacachi wrote: »

What kind of part was it?

Found it!

Scotty #

I won't be following F1 in 2012. I might catch some highlights but I won't be going out of my way to watch it.

I've been watching F1 for 20+ years now and have come close to giving up on it several times but after yet another season where the championship was more or less decided before halfway, where the number of drivers to reach the podium could be counted on one hand, and where team orders are still allowed determine results, I'm giving up.

I've been enjoying the bikes far more than the F1 for the last few years and have always prioritised the F1 - not any more. In MotoGP/SB you can have the lead change 5 times - on the last lap!!, races decided by .005 of a second!!, championships won by a single point... plus there's an Irish interest with the likes of Laverty and Rae.

mickdw

amacachi wrote: »

(I have my own idea that I don't think is in any of the cars, I'm awaiting their calls :pac:

Go on tell us:D

Jordan 199

TheChrisD wrote: »

Only if the FIA are wimps and decide that they need to weed out some of the slower traffic. I'd say, the more cars the better. Just look at GP2 and GP3 for examples.

The most cars that would be on the grid for an F1 race would be 26. The last time there was a full grid was around 1995. If there was the same amount of cars in F1 these days as GP2/GP3, there would be pre-qualifying imo.

amacachi

mickdw wrote: »

Go on tell us:D

No chance. :pac: It's something pretty simple I've never heard mentioned so I wonder if it's already around.

Jordan 191 wrote: »

The most cars that would be on the grid for an F1 race would be 26. The last time there was a full grid was around 1995. If there was the same amount of cars in F1 these days as GP2/GP3, there would be pre-qualifying imo.

Other than Monaco there's no problem in my eyes with 28 cars or so once there weren't 5 seconds a lap between 1st and last. It would need a different qualifying system which would never happen aside from all the rest.

amacachi

Jordan 191 wrote: »

Found it!

Knew it was banned for safety reasons! :pac:

Scotty # wrote: »

I won't be following F1 in 2012. I might catch some highlights but I won't be going out of my way to watch it.

I've been watching F1 for 20+ years now and have come close to giving up on it several times but after yet another season where the championship was more or less decided before halfway, where the number of drivers to reach the podium could be counted on one hand, and where team orders are still allowed determine results, I'm giving up.

I've been enjoying the bikes far more than the F1 for the last few years and have always prioritised the F1 - not any more. In MotoGP/SB you can have the lead change 5 times - on the last lap!!, races decided by .005 of a second!!, championships won by a single point... plus there's an Irish interest with the likes of Laverty and Rae.

I find it odd how it's only the 2nd time in the last 5 years that the title wasn't hotly contested til the very last race, there's been far less competitive times in F1 than this. Still, whatever your buzz! :pac:

Jordan 199

amacachi wrote: »

Other than Monaco there's no problem in my eyes with 28 cars or so once there weren't 5 seconds a lap between 1st and last. It would need a different qualifying system which would never happen aside from all the rest.

I was looking at the fastest lap times from Brazil, the teams at the back were around 4-5 seconds off the pace from the fastest car. Lotus were about 3.

decisions

Jordan 199

Now, that extra wing is just weird and ugly lol.

Top Dog

Jordan 191 wrote: »

Now, that extra wing is just weird and ugly lol.

Looks to be seriously off-center too.

Oval racer maybe?

Jordan 199

Top Dog wrote: »

Looks to be seriously off-center too.

Oval racer maybe?

It does look off-centre, I'd say it's down to what angle the photo was taken at.

That extra wing showed up at Friday practice for the Monaco GP in 2001, and it was banned.

mickdw

That arrows wing is centrally mounted. If you look closely, it is mounted on the nose of the car. I have no recollection of ever seeing that wing before though.

Jordan 199

Top Dog

Damn its ugly! :eek:

Jordan 199

Top Dog wrote: »

Damn its ugly! :eek:

It sure is. Made a one off apperance before it was killed off.

Jordan 199

LIGHTNING wrote: »

I also wouldn't like to sitting in that cockpit if one of those wings decided to go walkabouts.

Indeed.

Glico Man

LIGHTNING wrote: »

I also wouldn't like to sitting in that cockpit if one of those wings decided to go walkabouts.

At those speeds it would turn into a guillotine :eek:

Jordan 199

aaronh007 wrote: »

At those speeds it would turn into a guillotine :eek:

I think you are going a bit far fetched by using the word 'guillotine'.

I'd say the FIA were worried about the extra wing breaking off and penetrating the drivers visor like what happened with Senna when a piece of suspension penetrated his visor.

Jordan 199

LIGHTNING wrote: »

I can completely understand why wings like this were banned, enough drivers were killed in the late 70`s when they started putting mad looking wings on F1 cars.

I agree with all that.

Now here is a mad looking wing on a Brabham BT23C:



And as for that wing on the Arrows, if it wasn't banned for safety, the would have banned if for aesthetics, like with those x-wings.

I'm trying to dig up more info on what lap times the Arrows achieved around the Monaco track with that hideous wing attached. I'm sure I have a copy of F1 Racing somewhere about it.

Mike Litoris

Man I was going to wade in with the obligitory March 711 Tea tray front wing but that just beats everything....ever. Cant believe I've never seen that one before.

Either way I'll post a pic because its my favourite driver, Ronnie Peterson.

Jordan 199

More wings here.

And on another note, do any of you think Renault/Lotus could win a race next year?

I think if they start next season like they did this season and continue to develop the car, I think they might have a shot at winning a race.