At least £21tn in being hidden in global tax havens

Shryke · 22-07-2012 05:40PM

I agree with you there Chucky. There's nothing I can see to argue about.

squod · 22-07-2012 05:45PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Anyone here have a pension fund?

Makes no odds now 80% of those funds are gone for good.

A global super-rich elite had at least $21 trillion (£13tn) hidden in secret tax havens by the end of 2010, according to a major study.

Past tense like. Ireland is a tax haven like other countries mentioned previously. Difference between the likes of them and us is that they have governments with some cop-on.

ejmaztec · 22-07-2012 05:46PM

There'll be big trouble when the tax-dodging big knobs find out that most of it's gone without trace.

Capt'n Midnight · 22-07-2012 05:46PM

DB21 wrote: »

And? Are people not supposed to have money? Would you have us live in a communist world? It works fine in theory, but in practice (USSR, China) it leads to dictatorships.

Anyone who bought a house during the boom is probably spending 1/4 of their disposable income paying back the increase in house prices.

It's a massive transfer in wealth to the super rich.

KindOfIrish · 22-07-2012 05:46PM

titan18 wrote: »

Out of interest why should the rich pay for everyone else?

May I explain? The real price of a standard 3 bed semi in Dublin €100.000 max, outside Dublin €50.000 max. General public has been brainwashed by media and government, who work for the rich, that it worth much more. We paid 5 - 6 times the price and the difference are trillions in offshore banks.

golden lane · 22-07-2012 05:49PM

KindOfIrish wrote: »

May I explain? The real price of a standard 3 bed semi in Dublin €100.000 max, outside Dublin €50.000 max. General public has been brainwashed by media and government, who work for the rich, that it worth much more. We paid 5 - 6 times the price and the difference are trillions in offshore banks.

brainwashed.......i see.

Capt'n Midnight · 22-07-2012 05:50PM

titan18 wrote: »

Out of interest why should the rich pay for everyone else?

If the super rich were paying the same rate of income tax as the rest of us it would be a start.

Shryke · 22-07-2012 05:55PM

titan18 wrote: »

Shryke wrote: »

That was more or less what I said in my post, with regard to politicians being too cowardly to enact higher taxes for a better social model. I think were more or less on the same page, but I do believe it's something that would be swallowed with a little time. That's going to stay a hypothetical anyway.

Out of interest why should the rich pay for everyone else?

You couldn't ask a more facile and pointed question. Why should anyone pay for anyone else? Why should the poorer fund the state while the rich live by different rules? If they have more wealth they can afford more tax.

Edit: i'm not trying to jump down your throat by saying you're question is facile, only using the word in the strictest sense of its meaning.

goose2005 · 22-07-2012 06:03PM

badbeatcentral wrote: »

'hiding'? like it's under a rock on some beach in the caymans? The super rich protecting their wealth in a prudent legal manner seems pretty standard and to be expected, of course in a global recession money is going to flood to the tax havens.

If it's legal, it's usually because these are the same people who write the laws and can afford the best accountants and best lawyers. And a lot of offshore cash is illegal/semi-legal money from former USSR, Middle East, or other dictatorships where embezzling the government is easy.

DB21 wrote: »

And? Are people not supposed to have money? Would you have us live in a communist world? It works fine in theory, but in practice (USSR, China) it leads to dictatorships.

I don't think those are our only options. And even "in theory" communism's not so great.

bluewolf wrote: »

the world has just located a load of privately earned wealth that the rest of us can plunder. hurray! now we don't need to worry about fcuking up the country and giving the politicans high salaries and expenses because anyone who earns their money themselves can just be robbed. great plan.

LOL @ "earned". How much oil did Roman Abramovich pump himself? The vast majority of the super-rich get that way with connections, inheritance, corruption, monopolies, or outright theft.

titan18 · 22-07-2012 06:05PM

Shryke wrote: »

You couldn't ask a more facile and pointed question. Why should anyone pay for anyone else? Why should the poorer fund the state while the rich live by different rules? If they have more wealth they can afford more tax.

I dont really see how it's fair that their are people who will have worked very hard in their lives in order to be successful who are paying for others who have never worked a day and never intend to.

They should be paying whatever they have to in tax and not banking away somewhere just cos they can, but they shouldn't be paying a really high rate of tax just cos they can.

Capt'n Midnight · 22-07-2012 06:08PM

http://www2.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/investment_manager.html

Basically few of the super rich have 'earned' their wealth. There are few businessmen. Most made money on financial transaction and some on stock options. It's from capital gains, not investments.

The folks in the top 0.5% and particularly the top 0.1% are in my experience very likely to have been the recipients of largesse in the investment industry or banking industry, and this includes those at the top of corporations where compensation is tied to options and stock or those who have careers near the top of the banking and investment industry. There are exceptions, of course.

Mostly by shuffling paper regardless of the fallout.

22-07-2012 06:09PM

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

If the super rich were paying the same rate of income tax as the rest of us it would be a start.

The rich pay a massive % of tax in nominal terms.. And how do they get rich? By providing jobs and creating wealth. They're not thieves hiding their loot.. They're investing their money along with the rest of us when we have a pension fund.

The article is riding on the back of public feeling and ignores the fact that so much of that 21tr is made up of the investments of their readers who conveniently ignore it and start screaming burn the rich.

I will have a Singapore bank account soon for convenience and any money I put into it will count towards this figure as it's considered a tax haven. I'm a 24yr old English teacher with zero wealth but I'll be categorised as super rich by idiots.

panda100 · 22-07-2012 06:18PM

titan18 wrote: »

Out of interest why should the rich pay for everyone else?

They should pay the same tax rates that are inflicted on all of us. Why on earth should there be one rule for the rich and another for us plebs? Its very unfair and unjust.

Shryke · 22-07-2012 06:19PM

titan18 wrote: »

Shryke wrote: »

You couldn't ask a more facile and pointed question. Why should anyone pay for anyone else? Why should the poorer fund the state while the rich live by different rules? If they have more wealth they can afford more tax.

I dont really see how it's fair that their are people who will have worked very hard in their lives in order to be successful who are paying for others who have never worked a day and never intend to.

They should be paying whatever they have to in tax and not banking away somewhere just cos they can, but they shouldn't be paying a really high rate of tax just cos they can.

You're talking about two complete opposites of the scale and ignoring everything in between, not least the notion that anyone with a lot of money must have worked very hard for it, not that there aren't those that do.
Most people don't choose to be on welfare and the majority of the population aren't on welfare. They work and they all contribute to society, that's what paying tax is. Its not just a dole fund.
The rich should be paying higher tax. They're still rich afterward, just a bit less rich, and that's all the damage that is done for the betterment of state funds, funds that go toward things like health, education, transport and infrastructure, you get the idea.

drdoon · 22-07-2012 06:19PM

There's wayyyyyyyyyy more than that.. thats just peanuts

TheBegotten · 22-07-2012 06:21PM

token101 wrote: »

Apparently $21 trillion (€17.27 tn) is a conservative figure too! Not exactly a shock that the rich are hiding wealth, but potentially $32tn (€26.32 tn)? :eek:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-18944097

FYP. Nit-picky, but it's a difference. It's fairly obvious I thought. If they're smart enough to make that much money than they're going too be smart enough to protect it, or at least hire accountants smart enough to do it. They're still selfish, unpatriotic bastards, but it's the logical thing to do.:pac:

squod · 22-07-2012 06:30PM

Deleted User wrote: »

The rich pay a massive % of tax in nominal terms.. And how do they get rich? By providing jobs and creating wealth. They're not thieves hiding their loot.. They're investing their money along with the rest of us when we have a pension fund.

Speculators create 0 jobs. Plenty of them are super rich.

joseph brand · 22-07-2012 06:39PM

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Shryke wrote: »

It's insane but not surprising. Trickle down economics does not work. Neo capitalism is a disaster. The gap in class all over the world has widened.
An open, well regulated socialist approach with good health care and education is the only thing that guarantees a more stable economy with less class divide, but that's not sexy or exciting and it requires people to pay plenty of tax and act responsibly.
I know that's a bit of a sweeping statement but this is AH.

That's the single biggest problem. It would never work in Ireland.

Eh what?
Americans pay very little tax (about 20% i think). The wealthy pay even less. Romney paid 14% tax and he's worth about 250 million.

The banks caused this mess, along with some very wealthy criminals. Still, I see miidle class and working class go toe to toe. The middle class in the US is under threat.

squod · 22-07-2012 06:41PM

Brynn Silly Bongo wrote: »

Fair play to them.

Oh yeah. We should learn from them in fairness. Do as they do etc...

No point paying loans back if no-one else is, no point in paying tax if you can avoid it. No point having a sense of responsibility.

Fair play to them indeed. The world would be fuhked if we took on their attitude.

Capt'n Midnight · 22-07-2012 06:42PM

Deleted User wrote: »

The rich pay a massive % of tax in nominal terms.. And how do they get rich? By providing jobs and creating wealth. They're not thieves hiding their loot.. They're investing their money along with the rest of us when we have a pension fund.

The article is riding on the back of public feeling and ignores the fact that so much of that 21tr is made up of the investments of their readers who conveniently ignore it and start screaming burn the rich.

I will have a Singapore bank account soon for convenience and any money I put into it will count towards this figure as it's considered a tax haven. I'm a 24yr old English teacher with zero wealth but I'll be categorised as super rich by idiots.

LOL

The super rich are paying a lower % of tax on thier income than the rest of us. That means we are subsidising them

I've pointed out that the super rich make money on shuffling paper around. The fortunes the bond holders are making on Eurozone loans aren't generating wealth for anyone else.

They aren't investing, that money will move very quickly if there is a better offer.

When individuals hold more wealth than 100,000,000 people in the richest nation on earth it's obscene.

Economically speaking almost all the wealth created from 1998-2008 has gone to the super rich. Most people and governments assets have rolled back to where they were 10 years before.

Until you have saved up at least €20 Million you wouldn't be anywhere near super rich.

Please tell me who pays 10% income tax - apart very rich people ?
http://www.moneyweek.com/news-and-charts/economics/private-equity-bosses-pay-less-tax-than-cleaners

Private equity is back in the public spotlight. City veteran Nicholas Ferguson, chairman of investment group SVG, “has let us in on the industry’s sweetest little secret”, said Alex Brummer in the Daily Mail. He noted that UK tax rules allow buyout fund executives to pay just 10% on the bulk of their earnings

http://articles.latimes.com/2012/apr/13/nation/la-na-obama-taxes-20120414

WASHINGTON — As President Obama mounts an aggressive campaign on what he calls tax fairness, his own tax burden has fallen to the lowest of his time in the White House, lower than many who make far less — including his secretary.
...
The president and first lady reported a joint adjusted gross income of $789,674 last year and paid $162,074 in federal taxes, or about 20.5%, according to the tax return released Friday by the White House. That income keeps the Obamas in the top 1% of taxpayers.
...
Obama's rate is also notably higher than the one paid by his presumed Republican opponent, Mitt Romney, a multimillionaire investor who paid about 14% of his income in federal income taxes last year, according to a summary of his tax return that he disclosed earlier this year.

If you are rich you can afford lawyers and tax consultants to find loopholes that are beyond the average person.

Pottler · 22-07-2012 06:42PM

Boards.ie: "Rabble, Rabble, Tax, Rabble, theft, rabble, rabble".
Rich chappie with dosh in tax haven: "Riiight... Feck off Pleb."

Chucky the tree · 22-07-2012 06:43PM

joseph brand wrote: »

Eh what?
Americans pay very little tax (about 20% i think). The wealthy pay even less. Romney paid 14% tax and he's worth about 250 million.

The banks caused this mess, along with some very wealthy criminals. Still, I see miidle class and working class go toe to toe. The middle class in the US is under threat.

A high tax system in Ireland would not be wanted by the Irish people.

joseph brand · 22-07-2012 06:50PM

goose2005 wrote: »

badbeatcentral wrote: »

'hiding'? like it's under a rock on some beach in the caymans? The super rich protecting their wealth in a prudent legal manner seems pretty standard and to be expected, of course in a global recession money is going to flood to the tax havens.

If it's legal, it's usually because these are the same people who write the laws and can afford the best accountants and best lawyers. And a lot of offshore cash is illegal/semi-legal money from former USSR, Middle East, or other dictatorships where embezzling the government is easy.

DB21 wrote: »

And? Are people not supposed to have money? Would you have us live in a communist world? It works fine in theory, but in practice (USSR, China) it leads to dictatorships.

I don't think those are our only options. And even "in theory" communism's not so great.

bluewolf wrote: »

the world has just located a load of privately earned wealth that the rest of us can plunder. hurray! now we don't need to worry about fcuking up the country and giving the politicans high salaries and expenses because anyone who earns their money themselves can just be robbed. great plan.

LOL @ "earned". How much oil did Roman Abramovich pump himself? The vast majority of the super-rich get that way with connections, inheritance, corruption, monopolies, or outright theft.

Or Dennis o Brien. Just a hard working man. Not a scumbag. No brown envelopes. A humanitarian.

How did the royal family of invaders acquire their wealth? It wasn't through good business.

The Vatican also has a rather large Swiss bank account. F*ck the poor and the needy.

woodoo · 22-07-2012 08:30PM

Brynn Silly Bongo wrote: »

Fair play to them.

Are you on the dole or a student?

K-9 · 22-07-2012 08:54PM

woodoo wrote: »

Are you on the dole or a student?

I thought that would be thrown at those saying this is a bad thing! AH has changed.

titan18 · 22-07-2012 09:00PM

panda100 wrote: »

They should pay the same tax rates that are inflicted on all of us. Why on earth should there be one rule for the rich and another for us plebs? Its very unfair and unjust.

Aye, they should pay the same, not more.

Shryke wrote: »

You're talking about two complete opposites of the scale and ignoring everything in between, not least the notion that anyone with a lot of money must have worked very hard for it, not that there aren't those that do.
Most people don't choose to be on welfare and the majority of the population aren't on welfare. They work and they all contribute to society, that's what paying tax is. Its not just a dole fund.
The rich should be paying higher tax. They're still rich afterward, just a bit less rich, and that's all the damage that is done for the betterment of state funds, funds that go toward things like health, education, transport and infrastructure, you get the idea.

Most people don't choose to be on welfare, but unfortunately there are some who do. Likewise, whilst not all public servants are ****, some are. I dont really see why someone who has been successful and worked hard throughout his career in order to make the money, should have to pay more than someone else. Equal taxes I agree on, not more though

Thing is aswell that whilst the super rich will still probably get away if the taxes are raised, the people who arent super rich but earn a lot won't. For the super rich too, they probably use very little state services and the only thing they probably care about are the roads. It's not like they'd ever need public healthcare, schools, transport etc so why should they pay a larger percentage of their income for it.

Fwiw, I'm a student, and I dont really see why if I work hard when I'm working and start to earn a lot, that I should be taxed more for being successful.

Shryke · 22-07-2012 09:02PM

Titan the last part of your post is really terrible and I hope you're messing.

Son Of A Vidic · 22-07-2012 09:19PM

bluewolf wrote: »

the world has just located a load of privately earned wealth that the rest of us can plunder.

No not plunder, just merely get the correct and long overdue amount of tax that's owing on it. But since they decide to hide these funds in tax havens for duplicitous reasons. Then yes, if possibly, let's fleece the bástards.

Chucky the tree · 22-07-2012 09:24PM

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

No not plunder, just merely get the correct and long overdue amount of tax that's owing on it. But since they decide to hide these funds in tax havens for duplicitous reasons. Then yes, if possibly, let's fleece the bástards.

Countries should be allowed set there own tax rates, if people don't like it then tough.

sock puppet · 22-07-2012 09:48PM

squod wrote: »

Speculators create 0 jobs. Plenty of them are super rich.

I'd be interested to hear how speculation has absolutely no economic benefit.

At least £21tn in being hidden in global tax havens

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