At least £21tn in being hidden in global tax havens

token101

Apparently £21 trillion is a conservative figure too! Not exactly a shock that the rich are hiding wealth, but potentially £32tn? :eek:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-18944097

Biggins

I wonder how much of that is Mitt Romneys!

Pushtrak

"From another angle, this study is really good news. The world has just located a huge pile of financial wealth that might be called upon to contribute to the solution of our most pressing global problems," he said.

That, or a select few will be paid off to overlook the issue. Wonder which is more likely.

token101

Pushtrak wrote: »

That, or a select few will be paid off to overlook the issue. Wonder which is more likely.

Seeing as how Ireland is a financial centre, if say 1% of that wealth was located in Ireland and it was taxed appropriately, how many times over would our debt be paid? Would we even have a debt? How much of the money that was loaned to us was taken from tax money that was due to states anyway?

Biggins

token101 wrote: »

...How much of the money that was loaned to us was taken from tax money that was due to states anyway?

Don't know if this is the figure your looking for but US firms supposedly give 3 Billion in corporate tax according to the header at: http://www.amcham.ie/news/submissions.aspx

Cool_CM

Good old Switzerland, one of the reasons touted amongst their press for them arresting Roman Polanski (who owns property there and had been coming and going freely for years) when they did was to use him as a way of appeasing the US who were putting a lot of pressure on Swiss banks to abandon their banking secrecy.

Shryke

It's insane but not surprising. Trickle down economics does not work. Neo capitalism is a disaster. The gap in class all over the world has widened.
An open, well regulated socialist approach with good health care and education is the only thing that guarantees a more stable economy with less class divide, but that's not sexy or exciting and it requires people to pay plenty of tax and act responsibly.
I know that's a bit of a sweeping statement but this is AH.

1ZRed

It makes you wonder what use is all this money to these people?
Surely they'll never get to spend it all.

I hope they find comfort in knowing it's just sitting pretty there giving them reasurance while the majority of the world is absolutely ass fucked by them.

Richard Hillman

Shryke wrote: »

It's insane but not surprising. Trickle down economics does not work. Neo capitalism is a disaster. The gap in class all over the world has widened.
An open, well regulated socialist approach with good health care and education is the only thing that guarantees a more stable economy with less class divide, but that's not sexy or exciting and it requires people to pay plenty of tax and act responsibly.
I know that's a bit of a sweeping statement but this is AH.

Socialism :pac:

Chucky the tree

Shryke wrote: »

It's insane but not surprising. Trickle down economics does not work. Neo capitalism is a disaster. The gap in class all over the world has widened.
An open, well regulated socialist approach with good health care and education is the only thing that guarantees a more stable economy with less class divide, but that's not sexy or exciting and it requires people to pay plenty of tax and act responsibly.
I know that's a bit of a sweeping statement but this is AH.

That's the single biggest problem. It would never work in Ireland.

woodoo

We have been talking about billions for a long time now and i wondered when we would see trillions mentioned. And surprise surprise trillions is mentioned in relation to rich people hiding their wealth.

The solution to the world financial meltdown could be solved by the tax due on that money going to the relevant governments. Our media should be doing their bit to shine a light on it. But i won't hold my breath.

mikemac1

Sure we had our own version though of course it was a far smaller version

Ansbacher became a household word not long ago

Meanwhile I remember paying 48% PAYE on my overtime

Tax is for the little people

Shryke

Chucky the tree wrote: »

That's the single biggest problem. It would never work in Ireland.

That has been said about so many things and here we are with a smoking ban, offlicenses that close on publicans orders, essential services being cut, gigantic debt that isn't ours and the people responsible for it still laughing about it and juggling assets to try and hide them from slow inept hands, the household charge, sewage tanks, the list goes on and barely a stirring.
Tbh all it would take is for the people in power to act and we would swallow it, but that will never happen, not without everyone else doing something first so we can then make a poor attempt to copy. Would like to see our labour party stripped of the name. Such a disgrace.

Diego Maradona

Whats a trillion? Thousand million? Million million? Million billion? Thousand billion? Billion billion?

Shryke

Diego Maradona wrote: »

Whats a trillion? Thousand million? Million million? Million billion? Thousand billion? Billion billion?

Yes.

badbeatcentral

'hiding'? like it's under a rock on some beach in the caymans? The super rich protecting their wealth in a prudent legal manner seems pretty standard and to be expected, of course in a global recession money is going to flood to the tax havens.

Capt'n Midnight

$21,000 Bn / 7 Bn people = €3,000 each

3 billion of the world's people (one-half) live in 'poverty' (living on less than $2 per day). 1.3 billion people live in 'absolute' or 'extreme poverty' (living on less than $1 per day).

The wealth of the world's 7.1 million millionaires - ie. 1/1000th of the population - ($27 trillion) equals the total combined annual income of the entire planet.

Shryke

badbeatcentral wrote: »

'hiding'? like it's under a rock on some beach in the caymans? The super rich protecting their wealth in a prudent legal manner seems pretty standard and to be expected, of course in a global recession money is going to flood to the tax havens.

1) They're not protecting their wealth, they're dodging paying tax, enough revenue to completely tip the current global economic balance.
2) This hadn't been happening in recession. It's been happening for decades. You haven't even read an article on this.

Diego Maradona

Shryke wrote: »

1) They're not protecting their wealth, they're dodging paying tax, enough revenue to completely tip the current global economic balance.
2) This hadn't been happening in recession. It's been happening for decades. You haven't even read an article on this.

Yes

Shryke

Diego Maradona wrote: »

Shryke wrote: »

1) They're not protecting their wealth, they're dodging paying tax, enough revenue to completely tip the current global economic balance.
2) This hadn't been happening in recession. It's been happening for decades. You haven't even read an article on this.

Yes

Exactly.

DB21

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

$21,000 Bn / 7 Bn people = €3,000 each

3 billion of the world's people (one-half) live in 'poverty' (living on less than $2 per day). 1.3 billion people live in 'absolute' or 'extreme poverty' (living on less than $1 per day).

The wealth of the world's 7.1 million millionaires - ie. 1/1000th of the population - ($27 trillion) equals the total combined annual income of the entire planet.

And? Are people not supposed to have money? Would you have us live in a communist world? It works fine in theory, but in practice (USSR, China) it leads to dictatorships.

token101

DB21 wrote: »

And? Are people not supposed to have money? Would you have us live in a communist world? It works fine in theory, but in practice (USSR, China) it leads to dictatorships.

There's a difference between taxing capitalistic gains fairly and equitably and communism.

Anyone here have a pension fund? Or any investments in a managed fund? Or do you give money to charity? Cause if you do, you're almost definitely part of that 21tr figure and apparently, you should be ashamed of yourselves.

Tabloid trash written for idiots. You really think there's 21tr sitting in personal savings accounts? It's nearly all funds.

Archeron

Somewhere on Earth, there is a REALLY big mattress.

Chucky the tree

Shryke wrote: »

That has been said about so many things and here we are with a smoking ban, offlicenses that close on publicans orders, essential services being cut, gigantic debt that isn't ours and the people responsible for it still laughing about it and juggling assets to try and hide them from slow inept hands, the household charge, sewage tanks, the list goes on and barely a stirring.
Tbh all it would take is for the people in power to act and we would swallow it, but that will never happen, not without everyone else doing something first so we can then make a poor attempt to copy. Would like to see our labour party stripped of the name. Such a disgrace.

Hardly call it barely a stirring. Look what happened to the Green and Fianna Fail after the Guarantee. Look what happening to Labour after the household and other cuts. None of the major political party here would increase tax levels across the board similiar to more socialist countries like Sweden etc because then they wouldn't get into power again

Shryke

That was more or less what I said in my post, with regard to politicians being too cowardly to enact higher taxes for a better social model. I think were more or less on the same page, but I do believe it's something that would be swallowed with a little time. That's going to stay a hypothetical anyway.

The world has just located a huge pile of financial wealth that might be called upon to contribute to the solution of our most pressing global problems," he said.

the world has just located a load of privately earned wealth that the rest of us can plunder. hurray! now we don't need to worry about fcuking up the country and giving the politicans high salaries and expenses because anyone who earns their money themselves can just be robbed. great plan.

KindOfIrish

token101 wrote: »

Apparently £21 trillion is a conservative figure too! Not exactly a shock that the rich are hiding wealth, but potentially £32tn? :eek:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-18944097

Anybody wants to to tell me, that I have an obligation to repay my tiny mortgage to those rich? No way! Pay it yourself. And if Irish government pawned Irish taxpayers to that rich falk it is not my problem

Chucky the tree

Shryke wrote: »

That was more or less what I said in my post, with regard to politicians being too cowardly to enact higher taxes for a better social model. I think were more or less on the same page, but I do believe it's something that would be swallowed with a little time. That's going to stay a hypothetical anyway.

But they are to cowardly because the vast majority of people wouldn't be happy about it. The fact you admit that Irish people would have to "swallow" it just highlights this. If in the next election a political party ran under a manifesto of increasing income tax and corporation tax they'd be hammered.

titan18

Shryke wrote: »

That was more or less what I said in my post, with regard to politicians being too cowardly to enact higher taxes for a better social model. I think were more or less on the same page, but I do believe it's something that would be swallowed with a little time. That's going to stay a hypothetical anyway.

Out of interest why should the rich pay for everyone else?

golden lane

rich....who exactly is rich.....are pension funds and other investments included in these sums.....

is saving and investing for your, future and childrens future....a crime.

is having money invested in jobs a bad thing, the risk is taken by the investors......should not the rewards be good.....

let the government run everything.....see what the result is....
in countries where that happens, bribery is rampant......

Shryke

I agree with you there Chucky. There's nothing I can see to argue about.

squod

Deleted User wrote: »

Anyone here have a pension fund?

Makes no odds now 80% of those funds are gone for good.

A global super-rich elite had at least $21 trillion (£13tn) hidden in secret tax havens by the end of 2010, according to a major study.

Past tense like. Ireland is a tax haven like other countries mentioned previously. Difference between the likes of them and us is that they have governments with some cop-on.

ejmaztec

There'll be big trouble when the tax-dodging big knobs find out that most of it's gone without trace.

Capt'n Midnight

DB21 wrote: »

And? Are people not supposed to have money? Would you have us live in a communist world? It works fine in theory, but in practice (USSR, China) it leads to dictatorships.

Anyone who bought a house during the boom is probably spending 1/4 of their disposable income paying back the increase in house prices.

It's a massive transfer in wealth to the super rich.

KindOfIrish

titan18 wrote: »

Out of interest why should the rich pay for everyone else?

May I explain? The real price of a standard 3 bed semi in Dublin €100.000 max, outside Dublin €50.000 max. General public has been brainwashed by media and government, who work for the rich, that it worth much more. We paid 5 - 6 times the price and the difference are trillions in offshore banks.

golden lane

KindOfIrish wrote: »

May I explain? The real price of a standard 3 bed semi in Dublin €100.000 max, outside Dublin €50.000 max. General public has been brainwashed by media and government, who work for the rich, that it worth much more. We paid 5 - 6 times the price and the difference are trillions in offshore banks.

brainwashed.......i see.

Capt'n Midnight

titan18 wrote: »

Out of interest why should the rich pay for everyone else?

If the super rich were paying the same rate of income tax as the rest of us it would be a start.

Shryke

titan18 wrote: »

Shryke wrote: »

That was more or less what I said in my post, with regard to politicians being too cowardly to enact higher taxes for a better social model. I think were more or less on the same page, but I do believe it's something that would be swallowed with a little time. That's going to stay a hypothetical anyway.

Out of interest why should the rich pay for everyone else?

You couldn't ask a more facile and pointed question. Why should anyone pay for anyone else? Why should the poorer fund the state while the rich live by different rules? If they have more wealth they can afford more tax.

Edit: i'm not trying to jump down your throat by saying you're question is facile, only using the word in the strictest sense of its meaning.

goose2005

badbeatcentral wrote: »

'hiding'? like it's under a rock on some beach in the caymans? The super rich protecting their wealth in a prudent legal manner seems pretty standard and to be expected, of course in a global recession money is going to flood to the tax havens.

If it's legal, it's usually because these are the same people who write the laws and can afford the best accountants and best lawyers. And a lot of offshore cash is illegal/semi-legal money from former USSR, Middle East, or other dictatorships where embezzling the government is easy.

DB21 wrote: »

And? Are people not supposed to have money? Would you have us live in a communist world? It works fine in theory, but in practice (USSR, China) it leads to dictatorships.

I don't think those are our only options. And even "in theory" communism's not so great.

bluewolf wrote: »

the world has just located a load of privately earned wealth that the rest of us can plunder. hurray! now we don't need to worry about fcuking up the country and giving the politicans high salaries and expenses because anyone who earns their money themselves can just be robbed. great plan.

LOL @ "earned". How much oil did Roman Abramovich pump himself? The vast majority of the super-rich get that way with connections, inheritance, corruption, monopolies, or outright theft.

titan18

Shryke wrote: »

You couldn't ask a more facile and pointed question. Why should anyone pay for anyone else? Why should the poorer fund the state while the rich live by different rules? If they have more wealth they can afford more tax.

I dont really see how it's fair that their are people who will have worked very hard in their lives in order to be successful who are paying for others who have never worked a day and never intend to.

They should be paying whatever they have to in tax and not banking away somewhere just cos they can, but they shouldn't be paying a really high rate of tax just cos they can.

Capt'n Midnight

http://www2.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/investment_manager.html

Basically few of the super rich have 'earned' their wealth. There are few businessmen. Most made money on financial transaction and some on stock options. It's from capital gains, not investments.

The folks in the top 0.5% and particularly the top 0.1% are in my experience very likely to have been the recipients of largesse in the investment industry or banking industry, and this includes those at the top of corporations where compensation is tied to options and stock or those who have careers near the top of the banking and investment industry. There are exceptions, of course.

Mostly by shuffling paper regardless of the fallout.

Capt'n Midnight

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

If the super rich were paying the same rate of income tax as the rest of us it would be a start.

The rich pay a massive % of tax in nominal terms.. And how do they get rich? By providing jobs and creating wealth. They're not thieves hiding their loot.. They're investing their money along with the rest of us when we have a pension fund.

The article is riding on the back of public feeling and ignores the fact that so much of that 21tr is made up of the investments of their readers who conveniently ignore it and start screaming burn the rich.


I will have a Singapore bank account soon for convenience and any money I put into it will count towards this figure as it's considered a tax haven. I'm a 24yr old English teacher with zero wealth but I'll be categorised as super rich by idiots.

panda100

titan18 wrote: »

Out of interest why should the rich pay for everyone else?

They should pay the same tax rates that are inflicted on all of us. Why on earth should there be one rule for the rich and another for us plebs? Its very unfair and unjust.

Shryke

titan18 wrote: »

Shryke wrote: »

You couldn't ask a more facile and pointed question. Why should anyone pay for anyone else? Why should the poorer fund the state while the rich live by different rules? If they have more wealth they can afford more tax.

I dont really see how it's fair that their are people who will have worked very hard in their lives in order to be successful who are paying for others who have never worked a day and never intend to.

They should be paying whatever they have to in tax and not banking away somewhere just cos they can, but they shouldn't be paying a really high rate of tax just cos they can.

You're talking about two complete opposites of the scale and ignoring everything in between, not least the notion that anyone with a lot of money must have worked very hard for it, not that there aren't those that do.
Most people don't choose to be on welfare and the majority of the population aren't on welfare. They work and they all contribute to society, that's what paying tax is. Its not just a dole fund.
The rich should be paying higher tax. They're still rich afterward, just a bit less rich, and that's all the damage that is done for the betterment of state funds, funds that go toward things like health, education, transport and infrastructure, you get the idea.

drdoon

There's wayyyyyyyyyy more than that.. thats just peanuts

TheBegotten

token101 wrote: »

Apparently $21 trillion (€17.27 tn) is a conservative figure too! Not exactly a shock that the rich are hiding wealth, but potentially $32tn (€26.32 tn)? :eek:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-18944097

FYP. Nit-picky, but it's a difference. It's fairly obvious I thought. If they're smart enough to make that much money than they're going too be smart enough to protect it, or at least hire accountants smart enough to do it. They're still selfish, unpatriotic bastards, but it's the logical thing to do.:pac:

squod

Deleted User wrote: »

The rich pay a massive % of tax in nominal terms.. And how do they get rich? By providing jobs and creating wealth. They're not thieves hiding their loot.. They're investing their money along with the rest of us when we have a pension fund.

Speculators create 0 jobs. Plenty of them are super rich.

joseph brand

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Shryke wrote: »

It's insane but not surprising. Trickle down economics does not work. Neo capitalism is a disaster. The gap in class all over the world has widened.
An open, well regulated socialist approach with good health care and education is the only thing that guarantees a more stable economy with less class divide, but that's not sexy or exciting and it requires people to pay plenty of tax and act responsibly.
I know that's a bit of a sweeping statement but this is AH.

That's the single biggest problem. It would never work in Ireland.

Eh what?
Americans pay very little tax (about 20% i think). The wealthy pay even less. Romney paid 14% tax and he's worth about 250 million.

The banks caused this mess, along with some very wealthy criminals. Still, I see miidle class and working class go toe to toe. The middle class in the US is under threat.

squod

Brynn Silly Bongo wrote: »

Fair play to them.

Oh yeah. We should learn from them in fairness. Do as they do etc...

No point paying loans back if no-one else is, no point in paying tax if you can avoid it. No point having a sense of responsibility.

Fair play to them indeed. The world would be fuhked if we took on their attitude.

Capt'n Midnight

Deleted User wrote: »

The rich pay a massive % of tax in nominal terms.. And how do they get rich? By providing jobs and creating wealth. They're not thieves hiding their loot.. They're investing their money along with the rest of us when we have a pension fund.

The article is riding on the back of public feeling and ignores the fact that so much of that 21tr is made up of the investments of their readers who conveniently ignore it and start screaming burn the rich.


I will have a Singapore bank account soon for convenience and any money I put into it will count towards this figure as it's considered a tax haven. I'm a 24yr old English teacher with zero wealth but I'll be categorised as super rich by idiots.

LOL

The super rich are paying a lower % of tax on thier income than the rest of us. That means we are subsidising them

I've pointed out that the super rich make money on shuffling paper around. The fortunes the bond holders are making on Eurozone loans aren't generating wealth for anyone else.

They aren't investing, that money will move very quickly if there is a better offer.

When individuals hold more wealth than 100,000,000 people in the richest nation on earth it's obscene.

Economically speaking almost all the wealth created from 1998-2008 has gone to the super rich. Most people and governments assets have rolled back to where they were 10 years before.

Until you have saved up at least €20 Million you wouldn't be anywhere near super rich.

Please tell me who pays 10% income tax - apart very rich people ?
http://www.moneyweek.com/news-and-charts/economics/private-equity-bosses-pay-less-tax-than-cleaners

Private equity is back in the public spotlight. City veteran Nicholas Ferguson, chairman of investment group SVG, “has let us in on the industry’s sweetest little secret”, said Alex Brummer in the Daily Mail. He noted that UK tax rules allow buyout fund executives to pay just 10% on the bulk of their earnings

http://articles.latimes.com/2012/apr/13/nation/la-na-obama-taxes-20120414

WASHINGTON — As President Obama mounts an aggressive campaign on what he calls tax fairness, his own tax burden has fallen to the lowest of his time in the White House, lower than many who make far less — including his secretary.
...
The president and first lady reported a joint adjusted gross income of $789,674 last year and paid $162,074 in federal taxes, or about 20.5%, according to the tax return released Friday by the White House. That income keeps the Obamas in the top 1% of taxpayers.
...
Obama's rate is also notably higher than the one paid by his presumed Republican opponent, Mitt Romney, a multimillionaire investor who paid about 14% of his income in federal income taxes last year, according to a summary of his tax return that he disclosed earlier this year.

If you are rich you can afford lawyers and tax consultants to find loopholes that are beyond the average person.