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Sexual Orientation

24567…14

Comments

  • #32
    davidgrn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22 ✭davidgrn


    Wolfsbane you are right. Paedophiles and gay people are sexual sinners and are exactly the same. God will punish us.

    Feel better?


  • #33
    Zillah
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,369 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    Snappy Smurf wrote: »
    Just as I thought that the forum was getting boring, along comes a thread on homosexuality!

    Well I think there is only one 'orientation' as such: the man is oriented to the woman for the purposes of making baby.

    I think this issue of suicide is missing the point. Young guys who feel suicidal and also are feeling these attractions need to be loved and affirmed as men. I speak from experience here. Without affirmation and love, they die, either spiritually, or physically, or both. Telling them to embrace their (disordered) attractions is not an effective remedy to wholeness. It's just like pouring petrol on a fire in order to put it out.

    I don't think labeling, or encouraging young men to self-identify, as gay or homosexual is a useful exercise. How about we love them as brothers? I think that would be a good start. And I think we need to listen to their pain and sadness. Is this support available in our churches? Perhaps. Perhaps not. In many cases, I suspect it's not.

    Uh huh. And if you love young gay men as brothers they'll magically stop being gay at some point, will they? Or are you maintaining the utterly antiquated and divorced-from-reality notion that gay people aren't really gay, they're just confused, even the the ones in their fifties who are happily married to each other and raising families?


  • #34
    tommy2bad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,254 ✭✭✭tommy2bad


    Wolfsbane, I wonder if this thing about orientation is a bit of a red herring, Whether it's a choice or not isn't the issue.
    The issue is that your religious conviction is that it's wrong and you want this enshrined in law.
    The thing is, thats a theocracy, they never end well.
    Morality and legality are two different things, something being legal doesn't make it compulsory. Something being illegal dose however make that thing forbidden. To justifies such a restriction you have to prove harm, quoting the bible may convince you that hell fire is the end result of one choice but not convince everyone, unless it's going to harm you then thats their choice. You can't stop the wicked going to Babylon.
    I don't think labeling, or encouraging young men to self-identify, as gay or homosexual is a useful exercise. How about we love them as brothers? I think that would be a good start. And I think we need to listen to their pain and sadness. Is this support available in our churches? Perhaps. Perhaps not. In many cases, I suspect it's not.
    Snappy Smurf, thats a good question. And a good point, stop seeing people as labels and start accepting them as people. Of course that requires a non judgmental acceptance ;) Disordered attractions, tut tut.


  • #35
    JimiTime
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    A fantastic testimony here from a repentant homosexual. His honesty is refreshing.

    http://moorematt.com/2012/07/08/dear-gay-kid/

    Check out this for honesty:

    So did God make me straight? Nope. He made me ALIVE. I still am attracted to men, but all of the sudden, things became so much bigger than my sexual preferences.

    Read the whole article, its good to get such a perspective from a homosexual who is not trying to make the bible fit around his desire, nor is he trying to hide the fact that he is still attracted to men in order to blend in.


  • #36
    doctoremma
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,870 ✭✭✭doctoremma


    tommy2bad wrote: »
    I wouldn't have a problem defining pedophilia as an orientation
    I completely agree. If people are wired in such a way that they feel attraction to men, women, children or their family pet, I couldn't really condemn them for it.

    What I DO care about is any criminal activity resulting from that desire. Sex with someone too young to consent is illegal, for very good reasons. A defence of "I couldn't help it, it's the way I was made" isn't cutting it as an excuse for criminal activity.


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  • #37
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    doctoremma wrote: »
    I completely agree. If people are wired in such a way that they feel attraction to men, women, children or their family pet, I couldn't really condemn them for it.

    What I DO care about is any criminal activity resulting from that desire. Sex with someone too young to consent is illegal, for very good reasons. A defence of "I couldn't help it, it's the way I was made" isn't cutting it as an excuse for criminal activity.

    Good point. It's not about 'orientation', it's about actions people choose to commit.


  • #38
    doctoremma
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,870 ✭✭✭doctoremma


    PDN wrote: »
    Good point. It's not about 'orientation', it's about actions people choose to commit.
    Whilst I agree with this, that doesn't mean I think "orientation" (of whatever nature) is irrelevant or unimportant to the person. The "orientation" part (rather than the "action" part) is intrinsic to anyone's character.


  • #39
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    wolfsbane wrote: »
    But my point was not to link homosexuality with paedophilia - just to show that the common homosexual defence 'I was born this way/ it's an orientation, not a choice' is invalid. Even if true, it establishes no more than the same defence does for paedophilia.

    Outside of Lady Gaga songs I don't really think that is used much as a 'defense' of homosexuality any more.

    As you point out it is an inherently flawed argument in support of homosexuality. Firstly being born a particular way is irrelevant to whether such desires are moral or not. Secondly there is an implicate assertion in such a defense that yes it is wrong but I can't help it. The argument "its not a choice" implies that if it was people wouldn't choose it.

    Modern homosexual communities that are no longer defined by outside anti-homosexual notions (ie they are much more comfortable simply being gay) seem to find such arguments in defense of their sexual orientation irrelevant, the defense is covered quite adequately in the notion that it is two consenting adults doing something that has no greater demonstrable damage or harm than any heterosexual relationship.


  • #40
    Zillah
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,369 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    JimiTime wrote: »
    A fantastic testimony here from a repentant homosexual. His honesty is refreshing.

    http://moorematt.com/2012/07/08/dear-gay-kid/

    Check out this for honesty:

    So did God make me straight? Nope. He made me ALIVE. I still am attracted to men, but all of the sudden, things became so much bigger than my sexual preferences.

    Read the whole article, its good to get such a perspective from a homosexual who is not trying to make the bible fit around his desire, nor is he trying to hide the fact that he is still attracted to men in order to blend in.

    This is a story about a guy burning out on an empty promiscuous lifestyle. It isn't about being gay and it's insulting to imply that such hollow promiscuity is either ubiquitous for gay men or unique to gay men.


  • #41
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    JimiTime wrote: »
    A fantastic testimony here from a repentant homosexual. His honesty is refreshing.

    http://moorematt.com/2012/07/08/dear-gay-kid/

    Check out this for honesty:

    So did God make me straight? Nope. He made me ALIVE. I still am attracted to men, but all of the sudden, things became so much bigger than my sexual preferences.

    Read the whole article, its good to get such a perspective from a homosexual who is not trying to make the bible fit around his desire, nor is he trying to hide the fact that he is still attracted to men in order to blend in.

    No offense, I'm sure you posted that with the greatest of intentions, but it is anti-homosexual bashing threw and threw. The post is full of comments such as "The gay lifestyle is driven by sex, not love." and "There was no love in the gay lifestyle, only a desire for more. More sex, more alcohol, more drugs, more out of control nights."

    Now either this guy was unlucky to experience a gay community devoid of long term relationships (and apparently hooked on drink and drugs), or his experiences were biased by swallowing Christian propaganda so he saw only the bad in a community that probably contained good and bad. Either way such sweeping statements applied to all homosexual groups is ridiculous.

    This guy has simply replaced one denial of reality (that he was gay) with another denial of reality (all gays are hedonistic coke addled sex addicts and relationships with them should be avoided) :rolleyes:


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  • #42
    JimiTime
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    Zillah wrote: »
    This is a story about a guy burning out on an empty promiscuous lifestyle. It isn't about being gay and it's insulting to imply that such hollow promiscuity is either ubiquitous for gay men or unique to gay men.

    Actually, its got more to do with God giving him life, and how things are so much bigger than sexual preference. And also, how it seems to him that his promiscuous life actually brought him to put himself in Gods hands. He reckons that without the homosexual desire, he could have been a sleepy cultural Christian who never gave God a second thought. But through his life of sin, he became broken before God, who built him up. So now, he is alive in Christ, and the realisation of the big picture showed him the insignificance of sexual preference in this context.
    Its more a spiritual lesson, told from the perspective of someone who was caught in a particular form of sexual sin and directed at young people who may be in similar circumstances.
    Its so much bigger than his particular experience with gay culture. I think most Christians would recognise that promiscuity etc, is certainly not confined to homosexuals. Whatever ones sexual preference, promiscuity is a moral epidemic in western civilisation. So that part of his story, could easily have been written by a young straight man. Its a shame that that is all you took from it.


  • #43
    Snappy Smurf
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 194 ✭✭Snappy Smurf


    Zillah wrote: »
    This is a story about a guy burning out on an empty promiscuous lifestyle. It isn't about being gay and it's insulting to imply that such hollow promiscuity is either ubiquitous for gay men or unique to gay men.

    Well maybe I read it in that article or somewhere else, but apparently men are much more promiscuous than women, and the main thing that limit's men's promiscuity is the women. So if you take the women out and make it all guys, that's even more promiscuity. It is widely acknowledged that promiscuity is a big problem in the homosexual community, probably to an even greater degree than the heterosexuals, as promiscuous as they are.


  • #44
    Zillah
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,369 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    JimiTime wrote: »
    Zillah wrote: »
    This is a story about a guy burning out on an empty promiscuous lifestyle. It isn't about being gay and it's insulting to imply that such hollow promiscuity is either ubiquitous for gay men or unique to gay men.

    Actually, its got more to do with God giving him life, and how things are so much bigger than sexual preference. And also, how it seems to him that his promiscuous life actually brought him to put himself in Gods hands. He reckons that without the homosexual desire, he could have been a sleepy cultural Christian who never gave God a second thought. But through his life of sin, he became broken before God, who built him up. So now, he is alive in Christ, and the realisation of the big picture showed him the insignificance of sexual preference in this context.
    Its more a spiritual lesson, told from the perspective of someone who was caught in a particular form of sexual sin and directed at young people who may be in similar circumstances.
    Its so much bigger than his particular experience with gay culture. I think most Christians would recognise that promiscuity etc, is certainly not confined to homosexuals. Whatever ones sexual preference, promiscuity is a moral epidemic in western civilisation. So that part of his story, could easily have been written by a young straight man. Its a shame that that is all you took from it.

    He just happens to demonise gay people and perpetuate offensive negative stereotypes at the same time. He could have just as easily addressed his message to young or Godless people, he's the one who made this about homosexuality, don't try and make out that I'm manufacturing that element.


  • #45
    finality
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,763 ✭✭✭finality


    The thing is, "I was born like this" isn't a defense for being homosexual in itself.

    It is, however, a defense against the notion that homosexuality is a choice and that people can change their sexual orientation. Asking a gay person to become straight is like asking you to become gay, OP. Leaving morals completely out of it here, and going only on the basis of attraction. You were born heterosexual and if you were asked to change that, you would be unable to.

    "I was born like this" isn't a basis upon which to claim something is moral. I think that's what you were getting at, OP, and you're right there. But I don't think any reasonable person attempts to use it as such. As I said, it's merely a counter-argument to being told that one's sexual orientation is a choice.

    Still, comparing homosexuality and paedophilia in ANY other context is ridiculous. A lot of very good points have been made on this matter so I won't reiterate.

    Are you trying to use the point you made in the OP to somehow imply that gay marriage should be illegal? Listen, even if homosexuality were immoral according to your religion, that should have no bearing on the law. If everything that religion deemed immoral were illegal, our laws would be, frankly, laughable. It does state in the bible that it's immoral to wear a garment made of two different types of material. The morality of any religion has no place in law.

    If you have no issue with homosexuality being legal, that's all well and good. As long as you don't try to stand between two people who love each other and happiness, you're completely entitled to your beliefs.


  • #46
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    finality wrote: »
    "I was born like this" isn't a basis upon which to claim something is moral. I think that's what you were getting at, OP, and you're right there. But I don't think any reasonable person attempts to use it as such.

    No reasonable person would attempt to do so, which would be fine if only reasonable people posted on boards.ie.

    Unfortunately, with monotonous regularity, it is an argument that keeps being trotted out by morons who visit this forum.


  • #47
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Zillah wrote: »
    He just happens to demonise gay people and perpetuate offensive negative stereotypes at the same time. He could have just as easily addressed his message to young or Godless people, he's the one who made this about homosexuality, don't try and make out that I'm manufacturing that element.

    Of course it is about homosexuality, because the sin he struggled with is homosexuality. It's based on his experience, and realistically unless you were there to claim these are mere stereotypes your criticism is lacking.

    The point of his post is to show how he found Christ. You could replace that sin with many others for me, and no doubt for other Christians on this forum.


  • #48
    JimiTime
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    Zillah wrote: »
    He just happens to demonise gay people and perpetuate offensive negative stereotypes at the same time. He could have just as easily addressed his message to young or Godless people, he's the one who made this about homosexuality, don't try and make out that I'm manufacturing that element.

    But he couldn't have just addressed it to a generic youth. He specifically wanted to direct it at people who he can empathise with. Its like if I'm speaking out against taking heroin, I can be very wise, and speak the truth. However, someone who has overcome the grips of heroin can reach the heroin user on a much more personal and empathetic level. They can tap into specific moments, experiences and thought progressions etc. His experience is his experience.


  • #49
    Zillah
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,369 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    philologos wrote: »
    Zillah wrote: »
    He just happens to demonise gay people and perpetuate offensive negative stereotypes at the same time. He could have just as easily addressed his message to young or Godless people, he's the one who made this about homosexuality, don't try and make out that I'm manufacturing that element.

    Of course it is about homosexuality, because the sin he struggled with is homosexuality. It's based on his experience, and realistically unless you were there to claim these are mere stereotypes your criticism is lacking.

    The point of his post is to show how he found Christ. You could replace that sin with many others for me, and no doubt for other Christians on this forum.

    As a gay person with plenty of gay friends I think I'm pretty well positioned to comment on whether its a stereotype or not, thanks. Well, put it this way; if this was an article about the emptiness of "the black lifestyle" do you think it would sound racist? Why is it ok to paint an entire sexuality with one brush but not a race?


  • #50
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    The problem is there's no evidence to suggest sexuality is biologically determined as race is. One may have desires but it is a choice to act on them.


  • #51
    Wiggles88
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 242 ✭✭Wiggles88


    philologos wrote: »
    The problem is there's no evidence to suggest sexuality is biologically determined as race is. One may have desires but it is a choice to act on them.

    You seem to be suggesting that acting on them is in some way inherently bad, beyond "my holy book told me so" there is no reason to suggest that this is so. If a homosexual couple wishes to act on their desires in a safe and responsible way then all the best to them.


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  • #52
    Corkfeen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,940 ✭✭✭Corkfeen


    PDN wrote: »
    finality wrote: »
    "I was born like this" isn't a basis upon which to claim something is moral. I think that's what you were getting at, OP, and you're right there. But I don't think any reasonable person attempts to use it as such.

    No reasonable person would attempt to do so, which would be fine if only reasonable people posted on boards.ie.

    Unfortunately, with monotonous regularity, it is an argument that keeps being trotted out by morons who visit this forum.
    I think the main rationale for saying it is natural is because many posters claim it to be unnatural...


  • #53
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    JimiTime wrote: »
    But he couldn't have just addressed it to a generic youth. He specifically wanted to direct it at people who he can empathise with. Its like if I'm speaking out against taking heroin, I can be very wise, and speak the truth. However, someone who has overcome the grips of heroin can reach the heroin user on a much more personal and empathetic level. They can tap into specific moments, experiences and thought progressions etc. His experience is his experience.

    Yes but he has made it not about his experience, he has made it about being gay in general. He didn't say that he didn't find romantic love, he is saying to others that it is not there to be found in the first place.

    Imagine if he was a heterosexual and was preaching that all of you should remain single because heterosexuality is just about lust, there is no love to be found in heterosexual relationships and apparently if you think you have found it you are just kidding yourself really you just want sex. All heterosexuality is hedonistic lust.

    He would be dismissed by all here as a sad deluded person who simply has not experienced love and because of that is projecting to everyone else. But if it is a homosexual saying this it is put up as pearls of holy wisdom. It seems perfectly acceptable to promote the myth that homosexual is just about hedonistic lust.


  • #54
    Zillah
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,369 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    philologos wrote: »
    The problem is there's no evidence to suggest sexuality is biologically determined as race is.

    This is a manifestly incorrect statement. There are measureable differences in brain structures between gay and straight men, there is a lot of genetic evidence, studies between twins support a biological disposition and tons of other physical characteristics that only manifest statistically (but relevantly).

    Not that your point has any relevance to what I was saying even if you weren't completely wrong.
    One may have desires but it is a choice to act on them.

    I know you need to toe the Christian-condemnation line here but this doesn't really have anything to do with what I am saying about judging people based on the actions of others.


  • #55
    sbsquarepants
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,810 ✭✭✭✭sbsquarepants


    wolfsbane wrote: »
    Seems paedophilia is a sexual orientation, not a choice, according to James Cantor, an associate professor of psychiatry at the University of Toronto, a psychologist and senior scientist at the Sexual Behaviors Clinic of the Center for Addiction and Mental Health. He is editor in chief of "Sexual Abuse: A Journal of Research and Treatment" and blogs at Sexology Today:
    Do pedophiles deserve sympathy?
    http://edition.cnn.com/2012/06/21/opinion/cantor-pedophila-sandusky/index.html

    What does that say for the 'I was born that way' defence offered for homosexuality? A brother puts it well on this short piece I posted on another thread:
    The Divine Institution of Marriage
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dt-Bdcd8cZ0&feature=youtu.be

    NOTE: According to WND, James Cantor is a homosexual psychologist and scientist at the Sexual Behaviors Clinic of the Center for Addiction and Mental Health who serves as associate professor of psychiatry at the University of Toronto.
    HAS THE NORMALIZING OF PEDOPHILIA BEGUN?
    http://www.wnd.com/2012/07/has-the-normalizing-of-pedophilia-begun/


    *********************************************************************
    Ephesians 2:2 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

    My sexual orientation is straight - that doean't mean i can just decide i want to have sex with that woman over there, i need her permision.
    Adults are in a position to grant or deny that permision to other adults - their gender is unimportant. A man can decide to have sex with another man if he so chooses, same for a woman.
    A child can not make that decision - so there is the difference. CONSENT
    Sex is sex, rape is rape, whether it is a man a woman or a child.


  • #56
    SonOfAdam
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 172 ✭✭SonOfAdam


    I also, as a gay person, think I am well positioned to comment whether it is a stereotype or not. He talks of his experience on the gay scene so telling us that it's not like that is neither here nor there - it is HIS experience. I know I'm raising my head above the parapet here but I would strongly concur with him and to suggest the scene is nothing like he described is to deny what your eyes see in the george or dragon on any given weekend. I was on that scene for many years, multiple partners and relationships later - not as uncommon as you seem to think - and can attest to the emptiness of it. Now, I am fully aware that you will consider me a self-hating queer in denial or somesuch thing - I have heard it all before - but I assure you I do not hate myself - nor am I homophobe.

    like Matt Moore I have come to know that I have a father in heaven who loves me, who draws me to Him and whose love changes me. He desires that for all, for me and for you. From my experience on the scene most people are simply looking for someone who will love them and accept them for who they are - and it's my experience that Jesus does exactly that. He loves me for who I am, and accepts me as I am - you may not have heard that before but that is the truth - but His love does change you - it lifts your eyes off you and focuses it on Him. I surrender my life to Him, so I don't get everything my way but in return He brings life and fullness of life at that. I would never give that up and return to the good ol' days. I don't expect you to understand any of this but there is more to this life than one's sexual orientation.

    I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full. Jn 10:10


  • #57
    Zillah
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,369 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    Uh huh. And those of us that have no interest in "the scene", getting smashed in The George and taking strangers home to bed should just be quiet and accept that we will be judged based on the actions of others, right?


  • #58
    SonOfAdam
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 172 ✭✭SonOfAdam


    No-one is asking you to keep quite - but there is little point denying the experience of others when it differs to yours. I am fully aware that my experience is mine and that's what informs me. Also, you'll be judged on no-one else's actions but your own.


  • #59
    JimiTime
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    Zombrex wrote: »
    Yes but he has made it not about his experience, he has made it about being gay in general. He didn't say that he didn't find romantic love, he is saying to others that it is not there to be found in the first place.

    .


    He points out at the end of the blog for those who jumped on that particular part of the story:

    But I want to be clear about one thing, many people have commented pointing out the fact that I’m generalizing when I use the term “gay lifestyle”. When I say “gay lifestyle”, I am referring to my experiences in the gay lifestyle. I completely understand that there are many gay people who don’t drink, don’t do drugs, don’t sleep around, and are upstanding citizens in their communities. Pursuing homosexual relationships does not mean you automatically become a drunken, promiscuous heathen, like I did. Those things are found on both sides of the sexual spectrum.


    Again though, this is much more to do with seeking God, and putting yourself in his hands. Finding fulfillment and life in him. In this particular occasion, it gave the blogger in question the big picture perspective, showing him that there is so much bigger things than sexual desire.


  • #60
    doctoremma
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,870 ✭✭✭doctoremma


    JimiTime wrote: »
    In this particular occasion, it gave the blogger in question the big picture perspective, showing him that there is so much bigger things than sexual desire.
    Can we assume that the heterosexual Christians here who accept the premise that there are far more important things than sexual desire are celibate? That they have renounced their own innate sexuality in favour of pursuing the higher ideal?


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  • #61
    prinz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    doctoremma wrote: »
    Can we assume that the heterosexual Christians here who accept the premise that there are far more important things than sexual desire are celibate? That they have renounced their own innate sexuality in favour of pursuing the higher ideal?

    In a way yes, I have renounced my own innate sexuality (heterosexual) in favour of pursuing the higher ideal of being faithful to my spouse, and my spouse alone. Does it mean I suddenly have no other sexual desires or attractions? Of course not. Do I put my commitment to my wife as being more important than indulging in those desires? Yes.


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