Unpopular Opinions.

FishBowel · 23-06-2012 12:48PM

They're only jealous because people who believe in God usually live longer than those who don't.

bee_keeper · 23-06-2012 01:26PM

Fromthetrees wrote: »

Hmm, I think you are very wrong here, in the area of family law, would a woman be 'projecting their own insecurities about themselves' if they were being denied access to their child, really now?

What about if their child was moved out of the country permanently and there is a fair chance they'll never see their child again, is that projecting?

If the whole area of rights to children was switched tomorrow from being in favor of the woman to being in favor of the man I'm pretty sure you'll get a lot of woman and their associated organisations and movements to complain about equality quite loudly, and the thing is the'd be right, but if men do it they're being 'insecure about themselves', maybe it's they feel insecure about seeing their children, maybe.

the charge of insecurity is thrown around too liberally nowadays when someone expresses an opinion about anything

i think men deserve more rights re_ thier children = your just projecting your own insecuritys

i think boys are confused about their identity nowadays = your just projecting your own insecuritys

bee_keeper · 23-06-2012 01:28PM

FishBowel wrote: »

They're only jealous because people who believe in God usually live longer than those who don't.

on a global basis , that seems unlikely as the vast majority of people in the developing word belive in god

Wibbs · 23-06-2012 01:40PM

True, but comparing like with like it seems religious types live longer on average. I suspect there's all sorts of co factors mind you.

The King of Moo · 23-06-2012 02:23PM

Fromthetrees wrote: »

Hmm, I think you are very wrong here, in the area of family law, would a woman be 'projecting their own insecurities about themselves' if they were being denied access to their child, really now?

What about if their child was moved out of the country permanently and there is a fair chance they'll never see their child again, is that projecting?

If the whole area of rights to children was switched tomorrow from being in favor of the woman to being in favor of the man I'm pretty sure you'll get a lot of woman and their associated organisations and movements to complain about equality quite loudly, and the thing is the'd be right, but if men do it they're being 'insecure about themselves', maybe it's they feel insecure about seeing their children, maybe.

I'm not talking about that at all.
You're deliberately choosing one area in which men in Ireland and other countries are discriminated about, and assuming that I'm referring to that specifically when I talk about men projecting.
Family law in Ireland does unfairly discriminate against men. It's something I've brought up on many occasions on different threads. It's why I mentioned in my previous post that men are discriminated against in some areas.
I've no problem with a man complaining about being unfairly untreated in such a case.

What I do have a problem with is the "we have it harder than you argument" from a minority of men who say things like "you can't be a man anymore, traditional maleness isn't valued, men are always portrayed as idiots, things have gone too far and feminazis have all the control" and try to argue that men are more discriminated against than women. It's those men who have insecurity issues, I believe.

The law regarding fathers' rights here and elsewhere needs to be revised, yes.
But overall, throughout the whole world, and to a lesser extent in the west, men have it a lot easier than women.
It doesn't mean that men can't try to do anything about changing anti-male discrimination.
But it does mean that men who complain about Boots' ads as though they're a real issue sound ludicrous, and do harm to men who genuinely want to effect change in the area of male discrimination.

the purple tin · 23-06-2012 02:26PM

FishBowel wrote: »

They're only jealous because people who believe in God usually live longer than those who don't.

That means the non-believers will get to meet Him first, it's the believers who should be jealous

Mardy Bum · 23-06-2012 02:33PM

The King of Moo wrote: »

I'm not talking about that at all.
You're deliberately choosing one area in which men in Ireland and other countries are discriminated about, and assuming that I'm referring to that specifically when I talk about men projecting.
Family law in Ireland does unfairly discriminate against men. It's something I've brought up on many occasions on different threads. It's why I mentioned in my previous post that men are discriminated against in some areas.
I've no problem with a man complaining about being unfairly untreated in such a case.

What I do have a problem with is the "we have it harder than you argument" from a minority of men who say things like "you can't be a man anymore, traditional maleness isn't valued, men are always portrayed as idiots, things have gone too far and feminazis have all the control" and try to argue that men are more discriminated against than women. It's those men who have insecurity issues, I believe.

The law regarding fathers' rights here and elsewhere needs to be revised, yes.
But overall, throughout the whole world, and to a lesser extent in the west, men have it a lot easier than women.
It doesn't mean that men can't try to do anything about changing anti-male discrimination.
But it does mean that men who complain about Boots' ads as though they're a real issue sound ludicrous, and do harm to men who genuinely want to effect change in the area of male discrimination.

There has been a crisis of masculinity for the past twenty years. Most men are terrified of losing a sense of self and end up blaming women for their own personal woes without ever examining themselves.

The King of Moo · 23-06-2012 02:44PM

Mardy Bum wrote: »

There has been a crisis of masculinity for the past twenty years. Most men are terrified of losing a sense of self and end up blaming women for their own personal woes without ever examining themselves.

I think that's all in people's heads. I've never felt like my identity has been in any kind of crisis.
Where does this crisis come from? In practical terms, things haven't changed very much for men, except that we have less of an unearned, automatic position of power in professional, social and familial terms. That's only fair.
But we don't have it bad at all.

I think every generation feels it's going through a crisis of masculinity. People nowadays look at clothes shops and some young people and think "Bloody hell! Look at the state of that, they're not real men!"

But the previous generations were doing that with dandies, libertines, hippies, teddy boys, new romantics etc. This notion that previous generations were more masculine always seems to have existed, but I think it's based on the fact that lots of men feel that there's an ideal of masculinity they need to meet. But this ideal is not a realistic one, and they're thus doomed to always be worried about not being seen as masculine, to try to prove their masculinity to themselves and others, and to mock what they see as a lack of traditional masculinity in others.

But objectively, I think masculinity's doing just fine.

Duggys Housemate · 23-06-2012 02:56PM

The King of Moo wrote: »

I think that's all in people's heads. I've never felt like my identity has been in any kind of crisis.
Where does this crisis come from? In practical terms, things haven't changed very much for men, except that we have less of an unearned, automatic position of power in professional, social and familial terms. That's only fair.
But we don't have it bad at all.

This is a modern leftist argument which ignores old left wing arguments, which argued that most men - workers - were powerless. I go with the latter idea not the former.

Galwayguy35 · 23-06-2012 03:13PM

Mardy Bum wrote: »

There has been a crisis of masculinity for the past twenty years. Most men are terrified of losing a sense of self and end up blaming women for their own personal woes without ever examining themselves.

Really? It works both ways. I've lost count of the amount of man bashing threads I've seen on internet forums where women are blaming men for everything and giving out about how tough they have it.

The King of Moo · 23-06-2012 03:41PM

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

This is a modern leftist argument which ignores old left wing arguments, which argued that most men - workers - were powerless. I go with the latter idea not the former.

That's true to an extent, but most women were powerless too. Political and economic power was mostly wielded by a small number of men. But in terms of the family unit, men still had a lot of power, even if they had none in the workplace. And they usually wouldn't be hidden away and locked up if they got a single woman pregnant. Society was still heavily gendered, and favoured men more than women.

Now power's a bit more evenly distributed in every sense.

bee_keeper · 23-06-2012 03:42PM

The King of Moo wrote: »

I'm not talking about that at all.
You're deliberately choosing one area in which men in Ireland and other countries are discriminated about, and assuming that I'm referring to that specifically when I talk about men projecting.
Family law in Ireland does unfairly discriminate against men. It's something I've brought up on many occasions on different threads. It's why I mentioned in my previous post that men are discriminated against in some areas.
I've no problem with a man complaining about being unfairly untreated in such a case.

What I do have a problem with is the "we have it harder than you argument" from a minority of men who say things like "you can't be a man anymore, traditional maleness isn't valued, men are always portrayed as idiots, things have gone too far and feminazis have all the control" and try to argue that men are more discriminated against than women. It's those men who have insecurity issues, I believe.

The law regarding fathers' rights here and elsewhere needs to be revised, yes.
But overall, throughout the whole world, and to a lesser extent in the west, men have it a lot easier than women.
It doesn't mean that men can't try to do anything about changing anti-male discrimination.
But it does mean that men who complain about Boots' ads as though they're a real issue sound ludicrous, and do harm to men who genuinely want to effect change in the area of male discrimination.

so you dont think their is a drive to undermine traditional masculine traits and to try and feminise men nowadays ?

Duggys Housemate · 23-06-2012 03:50PM

The King of Moo wrote: »

That's true to an extent, but most women were powerless too. Political and economic power was mostly wielded by a small number of men. But in terms of the family unit, men still had a lot of power, even if they had none in the workplace. And they usually wouldn't be hidden away and locked up if they got a single woman pregnant. Society was still heavily gendered, and favoured men more than women.

Now power's a bit more evenly distributed in every sense.

In gender, maybe. In class, not at all. Power evened out mid 20th century but is careering back to being highly concentrated.

One thing I have to say about power is this - it is not averaged out. Although I agree that all men were better positioned in the past, given family roles and sex and pregnancy, this is not the same as men being more powerful on average.

men are still more powerful on average, but most men have no power. Its just some have lots.

The King of Moo · 23-06-2012 03:53PM

bee_keeper wrote: »

so you dont think their is a drive to undermine traditional masculine traits and to try and feminise men nowadays ?

No. No, no, no, no, no.

First of all, you're just looking at the west. Yet even in the west, men still have a disproportionate amount of power in the media, political and corporate world. If such a conspiracy existed (you might also mean it's a more general cultural trend rather than an active conspiracy) it would involve men actively seeking to feminise their own gender, or allowing this feminisation to happen unhindered. I don't see why they'd do that.

I don't even know what "to feminise" means exactly. What I think is happening is that many men have a conception of masculinity in their head. However, this conception of masculinity is more simplistic than the more complex mixture of characteristics considered stereotypically male and female which people of both sexes embody. They therefore conclude that modern men are too feminine and modern women too masculine, rather than thinking that the issue might be with what they think men and women should be like.
Like I said before, this is nothing new. People seem to have always complained about this. Think 18th-century dandies and early 20th-century suffragettes. Then think of emos and ladettes. Nothing new.

Also, there are still a lot of places in the world where women are killed, oppressed, mutilated, tortured, raped, disenfranchised, and all because they're women. Overall, women have it a hell of a lot harder than men. You just can't argue against that.

At least say "I think that in the west there's a drive to undermine traditional masculine traits and feminise men." That'd still be wrong, of course, as there's no simple set of traditional masculine traits, and even if there were, there's still no drive to undermine them and feminise men. It's all in your head.

The King of Moo · 23-06-2012 03:59PM

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

In gender, maybe. In class, not at all. Power evened out mid 20th century but is careering back to being highly concentrated.

One thing I have to say about power is this - it is not averaged out. Although I agree that all men were better positioned in the past, given family roles and sex and pregnancy, this is not the same as men being more powerful on average.

men are still more powerful on average, but most men have no power. Its just some have lots.

I agree that power is still incredibly unevenly distributed, and class has always existed, but I think the average Joe/Josephine has more power now in terms of, for example, purchasing power, political influence and the ability to communicate their ideas to a global audience, though most people don't make much use of this power.

Duggys Housemate · 23-06-2012 04:01PM

The King of Moo wrote: »

At least say "I think that in the west there's a drive to undermine traditional masculine traits and feminise men." That'd still be wrong, of course, and there's no simple set of traditional masculine traits, and even if there were, there's still no drive to undermine them and feminise men. It's all in your head.

Actually, its hardly in his head. Nor is it as powerful as force as he says, but there are academics who claim that gender is a total and social construct and what they mean in reality is that maleness is a construct. They generally complain about male traits. However that is not so powerful outside the academy.

There are other indications that men are less manly than the past. None of us have time machines, and very few people here are old enough to remember, but it seems that in the sixties, and seventies work was more masculine, and tougher, if we are to believe Mad Men and Life On Mars etc. These period pieces work for a reason, a nostalgia for a different past.

Whether that past is good, or bad is open to dispute, but that things are different there is not. This change in the general culture is different from the Romantics, and New Romantics, both reacting as a counter culture to a more masculine culture. The New Romantics are set around the time of Life of Mars, the Romantics were a tiny group who were surrounded by a society of universal and daily male drunkenness, fighting and duelling.

Mardy Bum · 23-06-2012 04:10PM

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Really? It works both ways. I've lost count of the amount of man bashing threads I've seen on internet forums where women are blaming men for everything and giving out about how tough they have it.

This was always going to be the case as women have been discriminated against both politically and socially in every class of life in practically every society for a thousand years or so. Its in built in their psyche. Most women nowadays can get over this but some will be induced to blame men for their woes.

cloptrop · 23-06-2012 04:11PM

garysully1986 wrote: »

Yeah you could also say that most rock music is about being broken hearted, being in love or drugs, or how much you can observe in the local pub of a saturday night.

You can use these stereotypical views on every form of music, Emo is all suicidal music and kids who want to rebel against the world.

Chances are you are picking the worst parts of the genre and using that as what all hip hop represents.

There are poets in every genre, Just because you havent heard them doesnt mean they dont exist.

Had a thread in music a while back using Bob Dylan lyrics as a bar to compare with . I asked people to show me the art in hip hop rythme. There honestly was very little substance , I think Nas used a metaphor once . But honestly if you know anything about poetry very little about this genre is anything close to lyrical genius . It does however rythme which fair play to them , they can manage that what with being from the hood and slanging crack and banging bitches and pimping hoes and so forth . Oh some of them are poor too , they are the ones that people say are artists but basically they are just rythmeing words with other words.

I wrote a rythme
Rosemary and thyme
Called up my ho
Its freaky time.

You have to admit this wouldnt sound out of place in most rap songs. And before you speak of my lack of knowledge about hip hop , I was there for Dre when people forgot about him .

The King of Moo · 23-06-2012 04:23PM

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

Actually, its hardly in his head. Nor is it as powerful as force as he says, but there are academics who claim that gender is a total and social construct and what they mean in reality is that maleness is a construct. They generally complain about male traits. However that is not so powerful outside the academy.

What those academics mean is that many of the characteristics we automatically associate with being male or female are not inherent traits but ones applied by people, often with an agenda, or cultural consensus from within a cultural with unequal power distribution. They're making a distinction between sex (male, female) and gender (what characteristics are associated with each sex).
I don't see what's wrong with re-examining conceptions of gender, as most of them arose from male-dominated cultures and were used to maintain unequal power relations ("women are more emotional and better at looking after children, so they shoud be kept away from power and stay at home, whereas men are more rational so should make the important decisions").

Some academics take this to an extreme, but no-one listens to them anyway. I should know, I deal with them every day.

There are other indications that men are less manly than the past. None of us have time machines, and very few people here are old enough to remember, but it seems that in the sixties, and seventies work was more masculine, and tougher, if we are to believe Mad Men and Life On Mars etc. These period pieces work for a reason, a nostalgia for a different past.

Whether that past is good, or bad is open to dispute, but that things are different is not. This change in the general culture is different from the Romantics, and New Romantics, both reacting as a counter culture to a more masculine culture. The New Romantics are set around the time of Life of Mars, the Romantics were a tiny group who were surrounded by a society of universal and daily male drunkenness, fighting and duelling.

"Seems" is the key word there. Never trust nostalgia; it always idealises things.
But I actually think Mad Men is a great example of how the notion that men used to be more masculine and women used to be more feminine is nonsense. People back then were forced to act in those roles. Look at how Peggy and Joan are two of the smartest people in the office and chafe against the restrictions imposed on them. The most recent episode I've seen focused on a male character struggling against the stereotypical conception of masculinity he had in his own head, so again, this is something that's always happened. And a character asked Peggy why she acted like a man.
The central conceit of the programme is that the veneer of happiness and calm of the middle and upper classes and cool, confident masculinity is just that: a veneer. It's as false as the advertisements Stirling Cooper makes.
It's evident from the first episode that Don Draper's image of rugged masculinity is all just a mask to hide his own fears and insecurities.

Finally, I agree that dandies, new romantics etc. were minorities in their respective cultures, just as emos/hipsters etc are now. Most men have always been fairly average, and not overly-"masculine" or "feminine." That's the way it's always been. We haven't really changed at all.

Mardy Bum · 23-06-2012 04:30PM

The King of Moo wrote: »

I think that's all in people's heads. I've never felt like my identity has been in any kind of crisis.
Where does this crisis come from? In practical terms, things haven't changed very much for men, except that we have less of an unearned, automatic position of power in professional, social and familial terms. That's only fair.
But we don't have it bad at all.

I think every generation feels it's going through a crisis of masculinity. People nowadays look at clothes shops and some young people and think "Bloody hell! Look at the state of that, they're not real men!"

But objectively, I think masculinity's doing just fine.

I don't think the crisis of masculinity affects everyone but it does affect a large part of the populace. Women have always been looked down upon by men for centuries because of their role in the family unit. The man was always the bread winner and yielded the power in the relationship. Nowadays a woman has equal access to education meaning she can earn just as much and so men cannot control a woman they way they once could. So there has been a shake up in the power stakes. With this loss of control over women we have began to attack other forms of masculinity (which is one of the reason why the Justin Bieber hate phenomenon is what it is), in an attempt to regain this sense of power we have had ingrained in our psyches for centuries. Humans are naturally inclined to seek an advantage/fitness over those in their group in evolutionary terms from as far back as our oldest ancestors. Females were seen as passive and the males were the ones who did the courting. Now with the advancements in western society there is very little difference between men and women, leading men to attack each other or blaming women for their woes in an ironic change of places.

Even up until the 80s men could feel a legitimate hold over women as they were discriminated against severely just look at the laws in place in Ireland after a woman got married. So I don't think men felt this sense of a loss of power so there wasn't really as much of a crisis as now.

Fromthetrees · 23-06-2012 04:42PM

The King of Moo wrote: »

I'm not talking about that at all.
You're deliberately choosing one area in which men in Ireland and other countries are discriminated about, and assuming that I'm referring to that specifically when I talk about men projecting.
Family law in Ireland does unfairly discriminate against men. It's something I've brought up on many occasions on different threads. It's why I mentioned in my previous post that men are discriminated against in some areas.
I've no problem with a man complaining about being unfairly untreated in such a case.

What I do have a problem with is the "we have it harder than you argument" from a minority of men who say things like "you can't be a man anymore, traditional maleness isn't valued, men are always portrayed as idiots, things have gone too far and feminazis have all the control" and try to argue that men are more discriminated against than women. It's those men who have insecurity issues, I believe.

The law regarding fathers' rights here and elsewhere needs to be revised, yes.
But overall, throughout the whole world, and to a lesser extent in the west, men have it a lot easier than women.
It doesn't mean that men can't try to do anything about changing anti-male discrimination.
But it does mean that men who complain about Boots' ads as though they're a real issue sound ludicrous, and do harm to men who genuinely want to effect change in the area of male discrimination.

I deliberately picked one area in which men are discriminated against because I actually know a little bit about it, it's also such an important area, to the point that it is one of the biggest things in some men's lives. Family law is also a very broad area, it isn't just about actual custody.

I could easily say that men are discriminated against when it comes to childcare, paternity leave, insurance, suicide prevention, domestic violence, prisons, dying younger, gender quotas and many more areas I would guess.

Let me show exactly why I think you are so off the money and you deserve to be called out on it...

Originally Posted by The King of Moo
Never in the history of civilization has maleness been seen by the majority as a weakness or as less worthy than being female.

We have it easy overall, and always have. Just because society is a little more equal overall and men blacks are negatively discriminated against in a small number of situations, doesn't mean that men blacks are treated like second-class citizens overall.

This may or may not be an unpopular opinion, but I believe that many men blacks who complain ad nauseum about discrimination against men blacks are projecting their own insecurities about themselves.

...now you can easily counter that by saying men had too much power and things are just balancing themselves out now, but is that really true? and more importantly does that make it right?

I'm talking in the context of Ireland today, not any other country at any point in time.

The King of Moo · 23-06-2012 04:58PM

Fromthetrees wrote: »

I deliberately picked one area in which men are discriminated against because I actually know a little bit about it, it's also such an important area, to the point that it is one of the biggest things in some men's lives. Family law is also a very broad area, it isn't just about actual custody.

I could easily say that men are discriminated against when it comes to childcare, paternity leave, insurance, suicide prevention, domestic violence, prisons, dying younger, gender quotas and many more areas I would guess.

Let me show exactly why I think you are so off the money and you deserve to be called out on it...

...now you can easily counter that by saying men had too much power and things are just balancing themselves out now, but is that really true? and more importantly does that make it right?

I'm talking in the context of Ireland today, not any other country at any point in time.

I don't think that discrimination against men has to be part of balancing out power relations. I don't think it should be part of the more even distribution of power.
And I don't think that discrimination against men is a necessary spin-off of feminism.
I don't think anyone would say it's ok for men to be discriminated against. But I think that overall, discrimination against men is not as severe as that suffered by women historically and at the moment, taking the whole world into account.
That doesn't mean men shouldn't complain about discrimination at all. I just hate when people whinge that men have it harder than women. Overall, we don't, and such whinging does a disservice to people who actually work to end discrimination, against anyone.
Such whingers make things into a contest: "We're more discriminated against than you!"
It shouldn't be like that: personally I don't like any negative discrimination against particular groups, be they men, women, immigrants etc.

So to answer your question, no, I don't think it's right that men are discriminated against in many ways in Ireland at the moment. I also don't think that this discrimination is necessarily an offshoot of the more equal gender relations we now enjoy. It doesn't make sense to me that that would be the case, seeing as most of the people in positions of real power in this country are men.

Fromthetrees · 23-06-2012 05:30PM

The King of Moo wrote: »

I don't think that discrimination against men has to be part of balancing out power relations. I don't think it should be part of the more even distribution of power.
And I don't think that discrimination against men is a necessary spin-off of feminism.
I don't think anyone would say it's ok for men to be discriminated against. But I think that overall, discrimination against men is not as severe as that suffered by women historically and at the moment, taking the whole world into account.
That doesn't mean men shouldn't complain about discrimination at all. I just hate when people whinge that men have it harder than women. Overall, we don't, and such whinging does a disservice to people who actually work to end discrimination, against anyone.
Such whingers make things into a contest: "We're more discriminated against than you!"
It shouldn't be like that: personally I don't like any negative discrimination against particular groups, be they men, women, immigrants etc.

So to answer your question, no, I don't think it's right that men are discriminated against in many ways in Ireland at the moment. I also don't think that this discrimination is necessarily an offshoot of the more equal gender relations we now enjoy.

I just get the impression that you think men somehow have it easier than woman in Ireland today, that's definitively open for debate and open to interpretation but it is not at all clear cut. I think I've given a pretty long and broad list in which ways men are actively discriminated against in Ireland today.

It most certainly is not about "We're more discriminated against than you!", it is about simple equality and basic fairness.

If a woman/homosexual or black cries discrimination than any opposition to it is met with fervor, and rightly so. If a man cries discrimination he is met by many with open hostility, which is what I perceived you were doing, that's what I can't get my head around.

It doesn't make sense to me that that would be the case, seeing as most of the people in positions of real power in this country are men.

This is a very interesting subject and can easily be explained without using the word 'discrimination'.

Warren Farrell;

The trade-offs include working more hours and for more years; taking technical or more-hazardous jobs; relocating overseas or traveling overnight.

Why Men Earn More are the importance of assessing trade-offs; that "the road to high pay is a toll road;" the "Pay Paradox" (that "pay is about the power we forfeit to get the power of pay"), he documents 25 differences in men and women’s work-life choices, never-married women without children earn 13% more than their male counterparts; or that the gender pay gap is largely about married men with children who earn more due to their assuming more workplace obligations.

Essentially men earn more because they work more, men have more money, woman have more balanced lives.

This makes sense to me anyway.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIo-EHQqSFo

bee_keeper · 23-06-2012 06:17PM

The King of Moo wrote: »

I don't think that discrimination against men has to be part of balancing out power relations. I don't think it should be part of the more even distribution of power.
And I don't think that discrimination against men is a necessary spin-off of feminism.
I don't think anyone would say it's ok for men to be discriminated against. But I think that overall, discrimination against men is not as severe as that suffered by women historically and at the moment, taking the whole world into account.
That doesn't mean men shouldn't complain about discrimination at all. I just hate when people whinge that men have it harder than women. Overall, we don't, and such whinging does a disservice to people who actually work to end discrimination, against anyone.
Such whingers make things into a contest: "We're more discriminated against than you!"
It shouldn't be like that: personally I don't like any negative discrimination against particular groups, be they men, women, immigrants etc.

So to answer your question, no, I don't think it's right that men are discriminated against in many ways in Ireland at the moment. I also don't think that this discrimination is necessarily an offshoot of the more equal gender relations we now enjoy. It doesn't make sense to me that that would be the case, seeing as most of the people in positions of real power in this country are men.

well if complaining about discrimination was a contest , the referee would stop the fight for fear of the men being killed

womens complaints of discrimination employ an entire industry

men who complain get branded insecure chauvanists who apparently need to adress various issues about themselves

as i said earlier , how complaints are viewed very often depends on who is doing the complaining

bee_keeper · 23-06-2012 06:20PM

Fromthetrees wrote: »

I just get the impression that you think men somehow have it easier than woman in Ireland today, that's definitively open for debate and open to interpretation but it is not at all clear cut. I think I've given a pretty long and broad list in which ways men are actively discriminated against in Ireland today.

It most certainly is not about "We're more discriminated against than you!", it is about simple equality and basic fairness.

If a woman/homosexual or black cries discrimination than any opposition to it is met with fervor, and rightly so. If a man cries discrimination he is met by many with open hostility, which is what I perceived you were doing, that's what I can't get my head around.

This is a very interesting subject and can easily be explained without using the word 'discrimination'.

Warren Farrell;

The trade-offs include working more hours and for more years; taking technical or more-hazardous jobs; relocating overseas or traveling overnight.

Why Men Earn More are the importance of assessing trade-offs; that "the road to high pay is a toll road;" the "Pay Paradox" (that "pay is about the power we forfeit to get the power of pay"), he documents 25 differences in men and women’s work-life choices, never-married women without children earn 13% more than their male counterparts; or that the gender pay gap is largely about married men with children who earn more due to their assuming more workplace obligations.

Essentially men earn more because they work more, men have more money, woman have more balanced lives.

This makes sense to me anyway.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIo-EHQqSFo

men recieve longer prison sentances and serve their time in much worse conditions

23-06-2012 07:21PM

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Tractor_Pat · 23-06-2012 07:41PM

Pockets on a shirt ARE handy

The King of Moo · 23-06-2012 07:55PM

Fromthetrees wrote: »

I just get the impression that you think men somehow have it easier than woman in Ireland today, that's definitively open for debate and open to interpretation but it is not at all clear cut. I think I've given a pretty long and broad list in which ways men are actively discriminated against in Ireland today.

It most certainly is not about "We're more discriminated against than you!", it is about simple equality and basic fairness.

If a woman/homosexual or black cries discrimination than any opposition to it is met with fervor, and rightly so. If a man cries discrimination he is met by many with open hostility, which is what I perceived you were doing, that's what I can't get my head around.

This is a very interesting subject and can easily be explained without using the word 'discrimination'.

Warren Farrell;

The trade-offs include working more hours and for more years; taking technical or more-hazardous jobs; relocating overseas or traveling overnight.

Why Men Earn More are the importance of assessing trade-offs; that "the road to high pay is a toll road;" the "Pay Paradox" (that "pay is about the power we forfeit to get the power of pay"), he documents 25 differences in men and women’s work-life choices, never-married women without children earn 13% more than their male counterparts; or that the gender pay gap is largely about married men with children who earn more due to their assuming more workplace obligations.

In terms of the whole world, I think men have it much better, but just in terms of Ireland, I don't think there's such a big difference between the sexes. I acknowledge the many cases of discrimination against men you've mentioned, and agree that they're wrong. I also believe that women suffer a fair deal of discrimination as well, but overall this is a good country to live in compared to others, and I don't think it's important to decide who in Ireland is more discriminated against, as I doubt there's a big difference. What's more important to me also is that we get rid of all forms of unfair discrimination.

I've no problem at all with men complaining against genuine discrimination, and believe that most people are receptive when it's a genuine case of discrimination, just as they would in the case of a black or gay or female person complaining.

What I do have a problem with is men who complain about trivialities like Loose Women as though they're a horrendous atrocity against men, and say that it's harder for men than women, without specifying that they mean only in certain cases in the west.

The King of Moo wrote: »

A long, meandering post, which goes off on a slight tangent about one third of the way through, without getting back to the original main point and neglecting to address the main point made in the post it quotes

Deleted User wrote: »

Boards should limit messages to 256 characters.

I see where you're coming from, but I'd miss my meandering ramblings too much. And so would you, even if you don't realise it.

srm23 · 23-06-2012 08:00PM

Ireland(outside Dublin)...

Leprechauns, Shamrocks, Guinness, Horses running through council estates, toothless simpletons, people with eyebrows on their cheeks, badly tarmacked drives, men in platform shoes being arrested for bombings, lots of rocks and...... Beamish.

paddyandy · 23-06-2012 10:20PM

I can sing .

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