Medical intern offers?

kopci · 15-06-2012 8:06am

foreverandever wrote: »

The match that already happened didn't include everyone who was supposed to be in it. They are re-running it to ensure iris fair. People who are "unchanged" are coz they are higher than anyone who was missing from the old match. People who weren't told that, it means people who are now included have higher centilrs than you. It's not a conspiracy, just inefficiency by the HsE to sort it out initially. Hope this clears it up

Yes, I understand that. And I'm ok with the re-match. If I hadn't obtained a post that I was 'entitled' to, I'd be upset too, so I agree that HSE must redo the match and I don't see it as a conspiracy. But, if some non-EU people have been told they are safe, that means the HSE has already redone the match and already knows our new allocations and is just being obsequious by saying 'it is possible...' that 'you may...' receive a new post. I'd rather they just be upfront about it and tell us and not keep us in the lurch over a weekend. We already have precious little time to make arrangements in our own lives. It's the poor communication that is the trouble, not the error itself. And it's not only to us - they haven't maintained good communication with the training networks either, since the networks have been communicating with us re contract signing until Thursday! I imagine they are giving the networks today and the weekend to draft the new allocation list and notification email, but that shouldn't take quite so long. Anyway, nothing to do but just wait and hope the new post you get isn't too far down your list.

actin · 15-06-2012 9:20am

I agree that the communication and handling has been awful, but I wouldn't stop there.

Apart from releasing intern offers several days late, waiting another three days before rescinding them is totally unacceptable. I know of several people who have signed leases or paid deposits on the back of job offers; offers received in writing, accepted in writing and confirmed in writing.

Now some of these people are left in an ambiguous situation with no certainty as to whether the HSE will honor the offers that have been accepted and confirmed. They don't know whether they'll have the same hospitals or even work in the same county as the offer they were given. This is a pretty big deal for people who have entered into leases based on locations in their current offers.

The calculated, callous manner in which the communication yesterday evening was delivered is totally unacceptable. No name or contact number was provided. The timing of the email was no doubt intended to allow minimal reproach. The ambiguity and timescale suggested (i.e. early next week) adds to the uncertainty faced by many. The fact that the specific causes of this situation were not disclosed betrays any suggestion of transparency in the system.

RobFowl · 15-06-2012 10:07am

Please all involved complain bith to the allocation board and to the medical council. Lobby the IMO who will (should ) act on your behalf. If anyone who is not an IMO member wants to register a complaint wiht them pm me.

GradMed · 15-06-2012 10:49am

http://www.hse.ie/eng/about/Who/Human_Resources.html

The email address asknrs@hse.ie belongs to the HSE national recruitment service.
But of course the number given doesn't correspond to the contact details on the page.

Just had a chat with the HSE, 01-8817053.
There were errors in the allocation process and a final offer will be made next week. The person was unable to provide any further information.

More updates with a glaring lack of substantive information as I get them.

actin · 15-06-2012 10:49am

More information:

It seems what happened was several students were marked as non-EU when they were in fact EU students. They now have to reallocate jobs taking into account these students. This will drop some people with offers down their lists.

In terms of resolution, the HSE are being almost entirely unhelpful. They claim no offers were made and that it was the universities that made the offers. I personally do not accept this claim; the term offer was used explicitly in the email received last night (Thursday evening) and whilst a university staff member made this offer, if it was not made acting as an agent of the HSE, then under what authority was it made?

This is a serious error on the part of the HSE. They are attempting to rectify the situation by not communicating, acting defensively and placing blame elsewhere.

I would urge anyone affected to, in addition to other posters suggestions, contact the HSE directly to register a formal complaint. Unless they receive these complaints, they will likely claim 'no formal complaints were received apart from a few enquiries'.

Make noise. Email, ring and if needs be, call into people. Don't let your medical careers start by having the HSE walk right over you.

MrCreosote · 15-06-2012 10:55am

I'm sure Joe Duffy would lap this stuff up.

Seriously.

foreverandever · 15-06-2012 11:02am

I appreciate the HSE has messed up and it is really inconvenient, there's no doubting that. But they are just ensuring that the right people get the right jobs which is the fairest way. The reason they're saying no non-eu will be affected is the number of people involved about is probably less than the amount of non-eu who have the jobs. I think how they've handled It is disgraceful but I can understand why they have to do it

GradMed · 15-06-2012 11:13am

foreverandever wrote: »

I appreciate the HSE has messed up and it is really inconvenient, there's no doubting that. But they are just ensuring that the right people get the right jobs which is the fairest way. The reason they're saying no non-eu will be affected is the number of people involved about is probably less than the amount of non-eu who have the jobs. I think how they've handled It is disgraceful but I can understand why they have to do it

I agree with you but the problem is the HSE aren't giving us much information. We don't have an official reason for the change in the intern offers.

Calling the HSE I've been told errors were made and was unable to get any more information. Others have been told that a few people were left off the allocation list and some have been told that the job offers on Monday were not official.

vamos77 · 15-06-2012 11:57am

So are there many eu students wrongly not given intern allocations last monday? This is 1st ive heard of anyone, they should have been screaming thunder over last few days. I personally havent heard of anyone in my college.

This is disgraceful by HSE, we are supposed to start placements and have induction within a couple of weeks yet i can still be matched to absolutely any hospital in ireland. And im also one of people who sorted out accomodation. So whats the best way to complain just ring them up??

actin · 15-06-2012 12:01pm

vamos77 wrote: »

So are there many eu students wrongly not given intern allocations last monday? This is 1st ive heard of anyone, they should have been screaming thunder over last few days. I personally havent heard of anyone in my college.

This is disgraceful by HSE, we are supposed to start placements and have induction within a couple of weeks yet i can still be matched to absolutely any hospital in ireland. And im also one of people who sorted out accomodation. So whats the best way to complain just ring them up??

I've heard the number of EU students who were marked as non-EU is 16, although I don't have confirmation of this.

I'd make your complaint in writing. Perhaps ring up to find out who the appropriate person to make the complaint to is.

The biggest danger now is apathy; don't let the HSE think they can just push people around on this.

vamos77 · 15-06-2012 12:37pm

Wow 16, still dont understand how they can tell already which individuals will keep the place they got without redoing the draw. Unless they got an attachment that nobody else picked. Didnt think there was that many places available...

sillymoo · 15-06-2012 12:57pm

vamos77 wrote: »

Wow 16, still dont understand how they can tell already which individuals will keep the place they got without redoing the draw. Unless they got an attachment that nobody else picked. Didnt think there was that many places available...

The emails were sent out according to your centile ranking - if you were near the top you got the email saying your job would not be changed. Everyone else got the one saying your position may be changed.

brumindub · 15-06-2012 1:13pm

foreverandever wrote: »

I appreciate the HSE has messed up and it is really inconvenient, there's no doubting that. But they are just ensuring that the right people get the right jobs which is the fairest way. The reason they're saying no non-eu will be affected is the number of people involved about is probably less than the amount of non-eu who have the jobs. I think how they've handled It is disgraceful but I can understand why they have to do it

so does this mean that even though i'm an irish med school graduate from the EU, i may not have a job because no non-eu is going to be affected?

actin · 15-06-2012 1:16pm

brumindub wrote: »

so does this mean that even though i'm an irish med school graduate from the EU, i may not have a job because no non-eu is going to be affected?

Not exactly.

I've learned indirectly (and off the record) from the IMO that several UK students were offered jobs who should not have been, and that a similar situation occured with non-EU students.

It's hard to say whether they are removing people from the matching process, adding people, or both. The HSE need to clarify this today.

kopci · 15-06-2012 1:37pm

foreverandever wrote: »

The reason they're saying no non-eu will be affected is the number of people involved about is probably less than the amount of non-eu who have the jobs. I think how they've handled It is disgraceful but I can understand why they have to do it

foreverandever, would you mind clarifying.... Did you mean to say that no EU will be affected (rather than 'no non-eu')? It makes sense that no EU would be affected (ie no EU will be left without a job) because the newly added EU candidates will simply bump a few of the non-EUs who got posts.

But if you really did mean to say that no non-EU will be affected, then I'm not sure...

foreverandever · 15-06-2012 1:41pm

Opps sorry for that typo, I meant to say no EU will be affected, from what I can gather. Because there's more than 16 non-EUs in the system and they can't have a job above an EU person.

sillymoo · 15-06-2012 1:46pm

foreverandever wrote: »

Opps sorry for that typo, I meant to say no EU will be affected, from what I can gather. Because there's more than 16 non-EUs in the system and they can't have a job above an EU person.

I don't think this can be right though. What I one of the new added EU people have a higher centile ranking than other EU candidates - they will bump down EU candidates too.

kopci · 15-06-2012 1:51pm

sillymoo wrote: »

I don't think this can be right though. What I one of the new added EU people have a higher centile ranking than other EU candidates - they will bump down EU candidates too.

Yes - but I think what they mean by 'affected' is 'left without a job at all'. Obviously many EU will be 'affected' in that they will lose their current allocations and get new ones, but they will not be 'affected' so badly as to not get any posting at all. In contrast, a few non-EU at the bottom of the list will lose their current post and not get a new one to replace it. So they will REALLY be affected!

opinion guy · 15-06-2012 2:02pm

actin wrote: »

I agree that the communication and handling has been awful, but I wouldn't stop there.

Apart from releasing intern offers several days late, waiting another three days before rescinding them is totally unacceptable. I know of several people who have signed leases or paid deposits on the back of job offers; offers received in writing, accepted in writing and confirmed in writing.

Now some of these people are left in an ambiguous situation with no certainty as to whether the HSE will honor the offers that have been accepted and confirmed. They don't know whether they'll have the same hospitals or even work in the same county as the offer they were given. This is a pretty big deal for people who have entered into leases based on locations in their current offers.

The calculated, callous manner in which the communication yesterday evening was delivered is totally unacceptable. No name or contact number was provided. The timing of the email was no doubt intended to allow minimal reproach. The ambiguity and timescale suggested (i.e. early next week) adds to the uncertainty faced by many. The fact that the specific causes of this situation were not disclosed betrays any suggestion of transparency in the system.

Those who have made accommodation arrangements should make the HSE aware that if they are forced to change arrangements and incur an expense, they will be consulting solicitor to recoup costs from the HSE.

actin · 15-06-2012 2:04pm

Just to clarify the situation as I've heard:

a) A few people were registered as non-EU when in fact they were EU students; therefore, they need to be placed with the EU students in the rankings

b) A number of UK students were included in the rankings despite not having results yet; they need to be taken out of the rankings

c) Some non-EU students were included in the ranking when they should not have been included at all (for whatever reason, not clear on this)

Therefore, everyone is affected apart from people with very good percentiles or people who choose preferences that had little demand going for them.

sillymoo · 15-06-2012 2:56pm

How the media have not gotten their teeth into this I don't know. As someone said earlier - if this was the CAO it would be all over the news.

robjones1981 · 15-06-2012 2:58pm

sillymoo wrote: »

How the media have not gotten their teeth into this I don't know. As someone said earlier - if this was the CAO it would be all over the news.

Probably because of those affected no one has brought it to the attention to the media?

actin · 15-06-2012 3:08pm

robjones1981 wrote: »

Probably because of those affected no one has brought it to the attention to the media?

This is quite possible. I'd urge anyone with media connections to use them. There's a hashtag on Twitter at the moment, #interngate, for anyone who uses that service.

brumindub · 15-06-2012 5:26pm

Tue 19th by 5 then.

sillymoo · 15-06-2012 5:45pm

Email received from the IMO:

Dear Doctor,

As you may be aware there has been a significant errors in the HSE Intern Recruitment process. Letters of offer were issued and accepted. It has now come to light that offers were issued in error and on the basis of flawed data. New letters of offer will issue early next week. Five communications have issued to candidates in this regard. I have set out five categories below and each person should come under one of the headings.

Please note that we can only represent members.

Those of you who are not members can join through the IMO website or by ringing our membership department on 01-6767273,

Communication 1) to candidates who will fall out of the system

You were made an offer and accepted same. You should now have received a communication stating “Unfortunately you were not ranked sufficiently high in the matching process to secure an offer in this round. However you are currently on the reserve list and positions may well become available if they are declined by other candidates”

Those members who are in this group need to email their details to nchdissues@imo.le . You will need to attach your letter of offer, acceptance and the communication received from the HSE withdrawing your offer.

Communication 2) Offer does not change

You were informed that there was an error in the recruitment process but that your offer will not change.

Communication 3) Offers may change

I would anticipate that you will have notification of your final offer early next week. I have asked the HSE to send notification of the date to all concerned. If there are significant changes to your post at this time we would be obliged if you would please contact us at nchdissues@imo.ie stating the changes to your offer, any loss incurred as a result of this change (e.g. deposit on accommodation).

Communication 4) Not qualified,

You will have received a communication stating “It is evident from your application form that you will not have graduated on or before 9th July 2012 which in line with the eligibility criteria outlined in the Additional Campaign information makes you ineligible for these posts” I am aware that a number of applicants from the UK who received an offer have had it withdrawn on the basis that they are not graduating until July 19th and these people are included under this heading. Again we would ask that you send us your letter of offer, acceptance of offer, communication withdrawing the offer and any loss incurred as a result of relying on the offer. All details to go to nchdissues@imo.ie .

Communication 5) Reserves

You did not receive an offer. Unfortunately you were not ranked sufficiently high in the matching process to secure an offer in this round. You have been placed on the reserve list. Those candidates who have received this communication were not made an offer nor should they have received one. No loss has occurred. You are currently on the reserve list.

We have sought legal advice on this matter and as it stands it would appear that in the absence of consideration a contract has not come into being. However there was a legitimate expectation arising from the letter of offer and those members who relied on same to their detriment may be able to seek some form of compensation.

What we need now is to get an idea of the numbers involved and quantify any losses arising from the reliance on the original letter of offer. It is vital that all those affected contact us as outlined above.

Aside from the current issue there are a number of other pressing issues for Interns commencing work in July. The NCHD Living Out Allowance is currently being reviewed by the Department of Public Expenditure and the allowance is suspended pending the outcome of this review. The IMO would consider any withdrawal of allowances as a breach of the Croke Park Agreement and will consider all options up to and including Industrial Action to protect our member’s interests. We will be discussing these and other issues at our intern information nights (Details can be found at http://www.imo.ie/news-media/events/intern-nights-2012/ ) and I would be obliged if you would please circulate this email to your colleagues who are not members also.

We will be issuing further communication on this matter next week and in the meantime should you have any queries please do not hesitate to contact me.

Yours sincerely,

Val Moran

Senior Industrial Relations Executive

Irish Medical Organisation

10 Fitzwilliam Place

Dublin 2

actin · 15-06-2012 5:48pm

On RTE website now too:

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0615/mistake-may-lead-to-hse-job-offers-being-rescinded.html

sillymoo · 15-06-2012 6:13pm

actin wrote: »

On RTE website now too:

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0615/mistake-may-lead-to-hse-job-offers-being-rescinded.html

Pity they don't mention the poor people who are going to lose their job offers altogether.

actin · 15-06-2012 6:42pm

Does anyone know an EU student who was classed as non-EU? I need to get confirmation that this happened.

The reason I ask is I'm concerned that the spin they are putting on it suggests that people were included by mistake as opposed to omitted by mistake. It gives people false hope that they might receive a better offer than they did, as opposed to one further down their list.

Chiparus · 15-06-2012 8:57pm

GradMed wrote: »

Just received this, others in the class have gotten one saying their positions are unchanged.
This is just descending into farce.

Dear Candidate,

Further to the recent campaign for the allocation of Internships unfortunately a number of issues have been identified which impact on some of the positions offered. Following a thorough investigation all candidates are being reissued with their revised offers/ communication. Unfortunately it is possible that an incorrect post allocation offer was made to you which may be amended in line with the revised results.

I would anticipate that you will have notification of your final offer early next week.

Please be advised that due to the examination of offers all contract signing meetings and occupational health screening that has been scheduled has been postponed and relevant hospitals will be in contact with you in due course.

We will be in contact with you at the earliest possible date and you will be notified of this email communication by an alert text message where a mobile number was provided in your application.

On behalf of the HSE I wish to apologise most sincerely for the regrettable circumstances which have led to this review of the matching process. On behalf of the HSE, please accept my apologies for any inconvenience caused.

Yours sincerely,
National Recruitment Service

brewery, pissup??:rolleyes:

kopci · 16-06-2012 12:02pm

actin wrote: »

Does anyone know an EU student who was classed as non-EU? I need to get confirmation that this happened.

The reason I ask is I'm concerned that the spin they are putting on it suggests that people were included by mistake as opposed to omitted by mistake. It gives people false hope that they might receive a better offer than they did, as opposed to one further down their list.

Yes, curious about this too and whether you have had any responses?
In the message from the IMO, thanks to sillymoo, I noticed there is no communication #6 to the effect of: "You were erroneously not offered a post. It is expected that you will be offered a post based on the results of the revised match." But, on the other hand, I can see why the HSE would not send out such a message and would just wait until the new allocations are sent out.

Happy-Dog · 16-06-2012 1:09pm

actin wrote: »

Does anyone know an EU student who was classed as non-EU? I need to get confirmation that this happened.

The reason I ask is I'm concerned that the spin they are putting on it suggests that people were included by mistake as opposed to omitted by mistake. It gives people false hope that they might receive a better offer than they did, as opposed to one further down their list.

I know of one Irish student who was told that they had been classified as non EU but still offered a job, also another Irish student who was not given a job at all

16-06-2012 7:02pm

I wonder if anyone receive an email from HSE saying that they had been placed on the reserve list. I have not received any communication from anyone (including HSE). I called the HSE and was told that if I did not receive an offer email then I was not successful in the first round, however, they would not tell me if I was on the reserve list.

Piste · 16-06-2012 7:45pm

Just out of interest, which regions/specialities tend to be the most competitive?

Traumadoc · 16-06-2012 8:15pm

opinion guy wrote: »

Lol....consider this an induction program into HSE management practices

....don't worry...only the rest of your life to put up with it :P

You were warned.

david_defoe · 16-06-2012 9:49pm

Apart from the mess with allocations, has everyone been registered by IMC yet? I haven't...

GradMed · 16-06-2012 10:57pm

Piste wrote: »

Just out of interest, which regions/specialities tend to be the most competitive?

From the second HSE intern report, on last years information, the UCD network is the most competitive in the country. Don't think it went as far as to break down specialties.

The report may be found here
http://www.hse.ie/eng/services/Publications/corporate/etr/Second%20Interim%20Implementation%20Report%20April%202012.pdf

GradMed · 16-06-2012 11:28pm

david_defoe wrote: »

Apart from the mess with allocations, has everyone been registered by IMC yet? I haven't...

If you ask the medical council they can tell you where you are on the list of applicants to be registered. 353 1 4983299 is the number for registration.

david_defoe · 17-06-2012 10:37am

GradMed wrote: »

If you ask the medical council they can tell you where you are on the list of applicants to be registered. 353 1 4983299 is the number for registration.

Thank you but I just want to know whether I'm the only one not having received the number or not.

I also have one more problem, now that I think of it. Is there anyone doing their first trimester in Naas? I called them for an appointment to sign my contract but they asked for my CV instead and haven't replied yet...

GradMed · 17-06-2012 11:51am

david_defoe wrote: »

Thank you but I just want to know whether I'm the only one not having received the number or not.

I also have one more problem, now that I think of it. Is there anyone doing their first trimester in Naas? I called them for an appointment to sign my contract but they asked for my CV instead and haven't replied yet...

I would have thought the vast majority of doctors applying to be registered would have been by now. From the classmates I've spoken to they all have.

I was under the impression that the intern coordinator would contact people regarding contracts. I'd say contract signing is being postponed for all new interns, even those that have been told their post won't change, until after the new round of offers on Tuesday.

kopci · 17-06-2012 12:35pm

david_defoe wrote: »

Thank you but I just want to know whether I'm the only one not having received the number or not.

Haven't received my reg number yet either. I tried calling (same number that Gradmed provided) on Friday just to make sure there were no problems but when you follow the instructions to reach the 'new registrations' section, it just sends you on a loop back to the original message and encourages you to see the website instead. I eventually gave up and hung up. I'll give it another few days. I'm assuming we don't need to be registered for induction, just for actual work starting July 9th.

noodlepeg · 18-06-2012 11:51am

kopci wrote: »

Haven't received my reg number yet either. I tried calling (same number that Gradmed provided) on Friday just to make sure there were no problems but when you follow the instructions to reach the 'new registrations' section, it just sends you on a loop back to the original message and encourages you to see the website instead. I eventually gave up and hung up. I'll give it another few days. I'm assuming we don't need to be registered for induction, just for actual work starting July 9th.

If you want to find out, just call the main number and ask to be put through to someone in registration. If they cant tell you immediately, they will email you asap with your number. When I spoke to them (about 10 days ago) they still had hundreds to get through.

foreverandever · 19-06-2012 1:32pm

So has anyone heard any news today?

brumindub · 19-06-2012 1:45pm

foreverandever wrote: »

So has anyone heard any news today?

Nope. Still waiting.

kopci · 19-06-2012 3:39pm

brumindub wrote: »

Nope. Still waiting.

Came on here to see if anyone else has heard yet, so thanks for posting forever and brumindub. Getting antsy. Brumindub, I think it was you who had said we might hear by 5pm today. Were you speculating or did you hear somehow that today is the deadline? The IMO email said that they had asked the HSE to send us a communication giving us more information about when to expect new offers, but I never did get anything.

If anyone hears, please post asap...

brumindub · 19-06-2012 3:50pm

kopci wrote: »

brumindub wrote: »

Nope. Still waiting.

Came on here to see if anyone else has heard yet, so thanks for posting forever and brumindub. Getting antsy. Brumindub, I think it was you who had said we might hear by 5pm today. Were you speculating or did you hear somehow that today is the deadline? The IMO email said that they had asked the HSE to send us a communication giving us more information about when to expect new offers, but I never did get anything.

If anyone hears, please post asap...

I got a text message from hse on 15th saying it is hoped revised offers shall be issued by 19/6 @ 5pm. Should this date change, we will contact you.

sillymoo · 19-06-2012 4:14pm

I just got a txt saying that they will be issued BY 5pm today. Why they needed to emphasise the "by" I don't know. They have been messing with my head all day. Feckers.

19-06-2012 5:06pm

Just got the email there.

kopci · 19-06-2012 5:10pm

Got the new post and I've moved up in my preference list. Ecstatic!!!

Traumadoc · 19-06-2012 6:01pm

kopci wrote: »

Got the new post and I've moved up in my preference list. Ecstatic!!!

Hopefully they have not f---ed up again.

GradMed · 19-06-2012 7:12pm

Hope everyone is happy with their offers.
My post now actually resembles my preferences

Medical intern offers?

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