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Knock Airport

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  • 15-05-2012 11:22pm
    #1
    finchkerry
    Registered Users Posts: 63 ✭✭


    Sorry if this was already mentioned but I stumbled across the below link in the last day. It basically says the minister thinks Knock could overtake Shannon in passengers numbers at some point. I must admit I was somewhat surprised to read this, I knew Knock is on an upwards curve, which I'm delighted about, but not to this extend. I know Ryanair are doing a few new routes out of there with another new flight to Germany too...

    The lines I found most interesting were "There is a possibility that Knock could overtake Shannon in terms of passenger numbers, with Shannon down 20% in figures and Knock on the increase"

    http://www.limerickpost.ie/index.php/navigation-mainmenu-30/local-news/4397-minister-adds-to-concern-regarding-knock-airport-competition.html

    Do people think over the next year more new routes from Knock will be announced? The London route although well served already is a easy bet for high passenger numbers....


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    #2
    Neworder79
    Registered Users Posts: 607 ✭✭✭Neworder79


    In terms of routes they are fairly close with about 28 destinations served from Ireland West and 32 from Shannon. It's hard to see how Knock could double the 700,000 passengers with almost all the popular UK and European routes now covered, unless they add major hub traffic and US connections.

    http://www.irelandwestairport.com/flightinformation/route_map.aspx

    The minister was just projecting out the current trend of decline which is seeking SNN down over 20% each year while Ireland West grows by over 10% annually. Add to that a possible withdrawal of US troops which account for 250,000 at Shannon, and Ryanair stating they will double routes from Ireland West, it is possible.

    However it's unlikely as Shannon have restored routes, and while numbers may continue to fall it should settle around 1.4 - 1.5m. Varadkar was probably just softening up the bolchy Shannon lobby for the changes coming down the line.


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    #3
    munchkin_utd
    Registered Users Posts: 7,846 ✭✭✭munchkin_utd


    if you look at the flight options for Germany from Knock theres room for improvement.
    Lufthansa only flies once a week from Düsseldorf. Its the heart of the Rühr Rhein area (which has a population of 18million in a tiny area, population density is higher than Holland even!).
    Ryanair flies a couple of times a week from Hahn, which is as near to Luxembourg as anywhere major in Germany.

    And dont forget, theres a whole swathe of northern, southern and western germany which has no direct flight to the west of Ireland at all yet. And the fights there are to germany are low frequency. A couple of 100 seats a week for a population 5 times that of Ireland.
    Plenty of expansion room there for frequencies and new destinations like to south germany where the likes of Memmingen is only a short drive to Zurich so you are opening up the west of Ireland to swiss travellers too

    Not to mention theres no flights to the Benelux area either which is another option for expansion.
    Not to mention theres nothing at all to Poland, which with the amount of immigrants in Ireland from there you could surely justify a service.
    And a connection to the baltic states could also be a runner.

    so anyhow, theres plenty of room for expansion there if you ask me.


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    #4
    Zonda999
    Registered Users Posts: 5,531 ✭✭✭Zonda999


    Yeah, i was surprised to see the Dusseldorf to Knock is being operated with a CRJ900, I thought they'd at least be able to fill a 773 or something


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    #5
    Neworder79
    Registered Users Posts: 607 ✭✭✭Neworder79


    theres plenty of room for expansion there if you ask me.

    What I meant is most of the low hanging fruit has been "picked", the lucrative sun routes and UK cities where there is big demand. Heathrow hub connection and Boston/JFK would do very well with the right carriers. But the new european routes have yet to prove their viability, and are mainly aimed at inbound tourism given our small population and economic situation.

    Yes there are many more key destinations which could be served, like Zurich, Munich, Rome, South & West France, Amsterdam, Madrid, Poland, Greek islands, Malta, Grenoble or Salzburg for Ski etc. But that does not mean there's currently enough demand to make them viable. Maintaining and growing frequency the current connections is more important than chasing more peripheral routes IMO.
    Yeah, i was surprised to see the Dusseldorf to Knock is being operated with a CRJ900, I thought they'd at least be able to fill a 773 or something

    Deutsche BA and KLM operated 737 and 146 charters back in 2000, but starting with a smaller aircraft makes the route more sustainable until demand grows, hopefully see more services from LH.


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    #6
    highlydebased
    Registered Users Posts: 7,466 ✭✭✭highlydebased


    Zonda999 wrote: »
    Yeah, i was surprised to see the Dusseldorf to Knock is being operated with a CRJ900, I thought they'd at least be able to fill a 773 or something

    :D


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    #7
    Zonda999
    Registered Users Posts: 5,531 ✭✭✭Zonda999


    highlydebased wrote: »
    :D

    Oops, maybe I meant a 733! :)


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    #8
    mayotom
    Registered Users Posts: 742 ✭✭✭mayotom


    I think shannon would be in serious trouble if it lost its US military business. Knock is a well run efficient airport where the future is bright


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    #9
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    finchkerry wrote: »
    Sorry if this was already mentioned but I stumbled across the below link in the last day. It basically says the minister thinks Knock could overtake Shannon in passengers numbers at some point. I must admit I was somewhat surprised to read this, I knew Knock is on an upwards curve, which I'm delighted about, but not to this extend. I know Ryanair are doing a few new routes out of there with another new flight to Germany too...

    The lines I found most interesting were "There is a possibility that Knock could overtake Shannon in terms of passenger numbers, with Shannon down 20% in figures and Knock on the increase"

    http://www.limerickpost.ie/index.php/navigation-mainmenu-30/local-news/4397-minister-adds-to-concern-regarding-knock-airport-competition.html

    Do people think over the next year more new routes from Knock will be announced? The London route although well served already is a easy bet for high passenger numbers....

    Ryanair have said that they will double there routes from Knock over the next 3 years. Its probably an early morning slot to Heathrow that would be most useful to the western region, Hopefully Aer Lingus will switch one of them from SHannon.

    Also they used to Fly to Boston and New York before FlyGlobeSpan went bust.


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    #10
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    munchkin_utd wrote: »
    .
    Not to mention theres nothing at all to Poland, which with the amount of immigrants in Ireland from there you could surely justify a service.
    And a connection to the baltic states could also be a runner.

    It would make sense considering there was 1K Polish in Castlebar alone at the height of the boom,lots of them gone now but im sure there would be 50K in Knocks Catchment area (Galway to Donegal and as far east as Westmeath with Athlone less than 100Km, Longfod & Galway 80Km, Sligo 50Km and Enniskillen 120KM). Any Polish i work with fly Knock to London and then get there polish connections from there. Its working out much cheaper than going to Dublin. So i would be surprised if O'Leary doesn't tap into that market.


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    #11
    byebye
    Registered Users Posts: 325 ✭✭byebye


    Deleted User wrote: »
    It would make sense considering there was 1K Polish in Castlebar alone at the height of the boom,lots of them gone now but im sure there would be 50K in Knocks Catchment area (Galway to Donegal and as far east as Westmeath with Athlone less than 100Km, Longfod & Galway 80Km, Sligo 50Km and Enniskillen 120KM). Any Polish i work with fly Knock to London and then get there polish connections from there. Its working out much cheaper than going to Dublin. So i would be surprised if O'Leary doesn't tap into that market.

    Have you a link for that? the 2011 census shows 122k polish living in ireland and in decline, i find it hard to believe almost 50% of them live in the NOC area.

    If and If only shannon is ran better it could be very bad news for knock with galway only an hour away with motorway 75% of the way it would be just as handy for galyway city to use shannon. But this all would depend on shannon devloping new routes.


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    #12
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    byebye wrote: »
    Have you a link for that? the 2011 census shows 122k polish living in ireland and in decline, i find it hard to believe almost 50% of them live in the NOC area.

    None at all, was expecting alot more than 122K for the whole country.


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    #13
    finchkerry
    Registered Users Posts: 63 ✭✭finchkerry


    byebye wrote: »
    If and If only shannon is ran better it could be very bad news for knock with galway only an hour away with motorway 75% of the way it would be just as handy for galyway city to use shannon. But this all would depend on shannon devloping new routes.

    Maybe not the above poster but there does seem to be a lot of begrudgers towards Knock airport.

    Look, I realise people feel that maybe the airport is not that important due to the small population surrounding the airport however if it can stand on its own two feet, which it appears to be doing, than great, isn't that brilliant in today's economy.

    I feel people should get behind the airport and any proposed new routes. I'm not from that neck of the woods but have family near there and it appears to offer the west a good service. One aspect that knock and mayo/Sligo council need to improve the infrastructure around the airport, roads to knock are chronic!


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    #14
    byebye
    Registered Users Posts: 325 ✭✭byebye


    finchkerry wrote: »
    Maybe not the above poster but there does seem to be a lot of begrudgers towards Knock airport.

    Look, I realise people feel that maybe the airport is not that important due to the small population surrounding the airport however if it can stand on its own two feet, which it appears to be doing, than great, isn't that brilliant in today's economy.

    I feel people should get behind the airport and any proposed new routes. I'm not from that neck of the woods but have family near there and it appears to offer the west a good service. One aspect that knock and mayo/Sligo council need to improve the infrastructure around the airport, roads to knock are chronic!


    I have no ties to either airport and have used both! you could say by reading the threads there is shannon bashing also but i think people should get behind local airports as much as they can! keep jobs in the local area and lets be honest every corner of ireland need that at the moment.

    in my last post i was just pointing out that if shannon is ran better it is going to be a danger to knock. I would hate to see any airport in this county in trouble or closing, As it stand i think there is a future for shannon and knock but what that is time will tell.

    As for infrastructure around knock it could be much better and to be honest i'm suprised it never was improved in the boom times.


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    #15
    Kristopherus
    Registered Users Posts: 11,907 ✭✭✭✭Kristopherus


    Whats this about the infrastructure around Knock? A whopping new road that bypasses Charlestown, and then links to the Sligo-Galway road to get you to the Airport. There will never be a dual-carriageway or a rail link to there, but the roads are anything but bad:(


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    #16
    irishgeo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,374 ✭✭✭irishgeo


    Deleted User wrote: »
    None at all, was expecting alot more than 122K for the whole country.

    122k where those that filled in the census form.:rolleyes:


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    #17
    byebye
    Registered Users Posts: 325 ✭✭byebye


    irishgeo wrote: »
    122k where those that filled in the census form.:rolleyes:


    Great addition to the thread!


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    #18
    Neworder79
    Registered Users Posts: 607 ✭✭✭Neworder79


    Whats this about the infrastructure around Knock? A whopping new road that bypasses Charlestown, and then links to the Sligo-Galway road to get you to the Airport. There will never be a dual-carriageway or a rail link to there, but the roads are anything but bad

    The roads are OK in the immediate vicinity of the airport, and the N5 is fine from Roscommon border to Castlebar (Ballaghaderreen Bypass should also help).

    But I'm not sure what you mean about great "links" to Sligo and Galway. The N17 is very dangerous in several sections, narrow with no hard shoulder, tight winding bends on hills, hundreds of side road junctions and ribbon housing leading to many high profile accidents in recent years. I don't think most people want dual carrigways, just a good safe standard of National road like the Claremorris section, with passing opportunities and predictable travel times.

    If the the planned N17 upgrades had been done it would they would have brought Sligo within 30mins of the airport, and Galway well under an hour. Unfortunatly most of the projects been shelved, and the Tuam to M6 PPP project is stalled, so unless it gets a reprieve in some form of national stimulus plan I can't see any major improvements in the near term.


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    #19
    yew_tree
    Registered Users Posts: 530 ✭✭✭yew_tree


    But I'm not sure what you mean about great "links" to Sligo and Galway. The N17 is very dangerous in several sections, narrow with no hard shoulder, tight winding bends on hills.[/QUOTE]

    There is only one stretch between knock airport and galway without a hard shoulder. That being the road between ballindine and milltown approx 5 miles.

    The biggest problem with access on the n17 say from galway city to knock airport is trafic delays between the city and tuam. It really is chronic and they is a constant stream of traffic right up until 8.00pm at night.

    The m17 from gort to ballindine (the next planned stage) would be e huge boost but does anybody see that being built this decade?


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    #20
    Tenger
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 9,728 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tenger


    NOC gets another route:

    Aer Lingus Regional to start NOC-BHX flights from June 11th.

    http://aerarannblog.com/news/aer-lingus-regional-announces-new-route-from-ireland-west-airport-knock-to-birmingham


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    #21
    Zonda999
    Registered Users Posts: 5,531 ✭✭✭Zonda999


    Not surprising seeing as BMIBaby are pulling out of the route, they were obviously ready to go on that route to get in front of FLYBE, who would have also been interested I suspect

    Just wondering, seeing as EI Regional previously did not have an aircraft based in NOC, how will they be operating this route? I can't imagine they have an aircraft based in BHX. Will they be flying the aircraft they end up using from Dublin to do this each day OR would it, say, be flying from SNN to BHX, then over to NOC, back to BHX, and then back SNN. Only way that would make sense to me.


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    #22
    Turbine
    Site Banned Posts: 317 ✭✭Turbine


    Zonda999 wrote: »
    Just wondering, seeing as EI Regional previously did not have an aircraft based in NOC, how will they be operating this route? I can't imagine they have an aircraft based in BHX. Will they be flying the aircraft they end up using from Dublin to do this each day OR would it, say, be flying from SNN to BHX, then over to NOC, back to BHX, and then back SNN. Only way that would make sense to me.

    Aer Lingus Regional were meant to operate an extra rotation between Dublin and Birmingham, so presumably the aircraft that would've operated this will be redeployed to Birmingham-Knock instead.


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    #23
    Zonda999
    Registered Users Posts: 5,531 ✭✭✭Zonda999


    I didnt think ALR operated DUB to BHX at all, and that was done with A320's with normal Aer Lingus?


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    #24
    Locker10a
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 4,145 Mod ✭✭✭✭Locker10a


    Zonda999 wrote: »
    Not surprising seeing as BMIBaby are pulling out of the route, they were obviously ready to go on that route to get in front of FLYBE, who would have also been interested I suspect

    Just wondering, seeing as EI Regional previously did not have an aircraft based in NOC, how will they be operating this route? I can't imagine they have an aircraft based in BHX. Will they be flying the aircraft they end up using from Dublin to do this each day OR would it, say, be flying from SNN to BHX, then over to NOC, back to BHX, and then back SNN. Only way that would make sense to me.


    I belive it will be operated with an SNN based aricraft and crew on a W pattern via BHX as you said! But i wouldnt be surprised to see an A319 on the route in future if the demand persists as it did with baby.


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    #25
    Turbine
    Site Banned Posts: 317 ✭✭Turbine


    Zonda999 wrote: »
    I didnt think ALR operated DUB to BHX at all, and that was done with A320's with normal Aer Lingus?

    They do but they only operate one rotation on top of the 3 already operated by Aer Lingus.


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    #26
    finchkerry
    Registered Users Posts: 63 ✭✭finchkerry


    Great to hear about the new route, although it always looked like it would be filled by someone. Good also to see another airline in with aer lingus regional (aer arann) so its not a ryanair monopoly in the airport.

    Surely there must be scope for Aer Lingus Regional to fly from Knock to London Southend?? London routes are generally popular so I presume profitable, if aer lingus regional fly Waterford to southend I can't see why knock to Southend wouldnt work? Again surely there must be routes available both sides


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    #27
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,765 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    I don't think EIR have any more capacity available at the moment; and I think they'll need another financial year of the franchise working before anyone's going to finance them getting more ATRs

    There's lots of sites which claim they still have more AT7s on order, but these are long since sold on to other customers. One was even already painted in their old circles livery I believe!


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    #28
    finchkerry
    Registered Users Posts: 63 ✭✭finchkerry


    MYOB wrote: »
    I don't think EIR have any more capacity available at the moment; and I think they'll need another financial year of the franchise working before anyone's going to finance them getting more ATRs

    There's lots of sites which claim they still have more AT7s on order, but these are long since sold on to other customers. One was even already painted in their old circles livery I believe!

    That's interesting, thanks for that info. I just feel the amount of people that are commuting (or go home every other weekend) from London or out of other nearby county's Essex, Kent, Suffolk etc there would be sufficient passenger numbers to merit a Knock to London Southend route.

    I would imagine, although I could be corrected, that flight costs/ taxes in a new airport like Southend would be relatively low in comparison to others to generate business, which would be attractive to your low fare airlines, take your pick of which one.


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    #29
    Zonda999
    Registered Users Posts: 5,531 ✭✭✭Zonda999


    Easyjet could also serve Knock via Southend with a A319, but they're probably still bruised from their last attempt to compete with Ryanair in an Irish airport


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    #30
    coylemj
    Registered Users Posts: 25,345 ✭✭✭✭coylemj


    finchkerry wrote: »
    .... but there does seem to be a lot of begrudgers towards Knock airport.

    Look, I realise people feel that maybe the airport is not that important due to the small population surrounding the airport however if it can stand on its own two feet, which it appears to be doing, than great, isn't that brilliant in today's economy.

    That airport was paid for by the taxpayer and then handed over debt-free to the airport company so please spare us the 'standing on their own two feet' stuff. It was approved by a corrupt politician (Haughey) to curry favour and buy votes in the west thanks to the campaign by a megalomaniac priest (Mons. Horan).

    The only positive thing you can say about it's genesis is that at least they didn't bother throwing money at consultants for anything as silly as a cost-benefit analysis, they just decided to build it and hang the cost.

    I don't begrudge the people of Connaught (of which I am a native) an airport but I wouldn't say the employees of Galway airport feel that they were playing on a level playing field when competing against Knock for traffic.

    I know Galway was effectively subsidised by the PSO flights over the years but nobody gave them a modern airport for free.


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    #31
    Neworder79
    Registered Users Posts: 607 ✭✭✭Neworder79


    I don't see your point. Most airport in the state were paid for by the taxpayer. Galway was completely dependent on operating grants with no commercially realistic business plan. Their financial problem was not debt from building costs, but a strategy reliant on handouts and protecting one airline, poor management over many years and an inability to "stand on their own feet". Close proximity to bigger airports was always going to challenge it, but they chose to hide in a niche rather than grow and compete. That niche was wiped out by the M6 and other transport improvements.

    If Knock are trying to run an efficient and profitable business, bringing better air access to benefit of the whole region (and avoiding more taxpayer bailouts) why the bitterness?


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