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Yes Kenny Dalglish and Liverpool are done. MOD POST #425 *ALL READ*

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Comments

  • #1082
    G.K.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,704 ✭✭✭G.K.


    KeithAFC wrote: »
    Football doesn't work like that.

    You have so many contributing factors in football. Potential ability in young players (although you never know all the time how it might turn out), fitness of a player, mentality, confidence issues, tactics and basic coaching.

    The logic of signing some one with good crossing stats is a bit flawed because you could easily be ignoring the lack of pace of said player, the mentality of that player, he might be weak at beating players and so on. Stats can lie.

    Hence why I said other factors must be taken into consideration...

    I'm not advocating signing anyone on a single stat, that's A) stupid, and B) not Moneyball


  • #1083
    donalg1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,513 ✭✭✭donalg1


    zerks wrote: »
    Oranage2 wrote: »
    Of course Dalglish is done.

    John Henry wants to adapt a 'Moneyball'(buying cheap players with decent stats) type experiment and Dalglish like to buy the best players around for premium prices. Damien Comolli used a stats/scouting policy, so we had 3 people using 3 different methods.

    And honestly, John Henry, Damien Comolli and Kenny Dalglish one season experiment has ruined Liverpool till at least 2020 - I'd be surprised if they get into the top 5 in the next 8 seasons.

    Liverpool wont win anything under Henry, 'Moneyball' doesnt work in football and he should really just stick to baseball!

    Moneyball doesn't work when you buy overpriced,mediocre English players.Done right and bargains can be had,unfortunately Liverpool made a balls of it and wasted an awful lot of money on dross.
    Even Suarez,one of their best players has a very poor scoring record and for his talent & sizeable fee should be hitting the back of the net more regularly rather than just winning lots of corners.

    Dalglish will be given another season or if results dictate he could be gone by Christmas,can't see him going anywhere this Summer.

    Dont think Kenny will be sacked I'd imagine he will walk himself if anything. He is obviously cracking under the pressure and isn't up to the job at all.


  • #1084
    Oranage2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,129 ✭✭✭✭Oranage2


    G.K. wrote: »
    Disagree - you just have to find the right stats and then look for players, but don't only use stats in isolation. Other factors must be considered.

    Well I said moneyball doesnt work -


    Stats are useful but there are too many variables in football for just going on stats.

    As for moneyball, Baseball has drafts and wage/budget caps when signing players. Football has relatively none up to recently.


  • #1085
    KeithAFC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,239 ✭✭✭✭KeithAFC


    G.K. wrote: »
    Hence why I said other factors must be taken into consideration...

    I'm not advocating signing anyone on a single stat, that's A) stupid, and B) not Moneyball
    What is this moneyball then? It sounds like a lot of nonsense when it comes to football.


  • #1086
    LuckyLloyd
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,636 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    mufcboy1999 wrote: »
    I'd give the champions league victory to You in 05 but don't be bragging about that Micky mouse treble and carling cups lol.

    Try winning the league and come back to me until then ye will always a mediocre team who happen to over achieve every so often.

    So, we've gone from "cat" to "mediocre". Progress!

    But yeah, "mediocre" doesn't mean what you think it means either.


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  • #1087
    LuckyLloyd
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,636 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    KeithAFC wrote: »
    What is this moneyball then? It sounds like a lot of nonsense when it comes to football.

    Have you read the book?


  • #1088
    I am pie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,652 ✭✭✭I am pie


    mufcboy1999 wrote: »
    I'd give the champions league victory to You in 05 but don't be bragging about that Micky mouse treble and carling cups lol.

    Try winning the league and come back to me until then ye will always a mediocre team who happen to over achieve every so often.

    Yawn. Another Liverpool obsessed Manc super fan. Take a number and get in line.


  • #1089
    KeithAFC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,239 ✭✭✭✭KeithAFC


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    Have you read the book?
    I looked it up on amazon and it seems to come from baseball?


  • #1090
    G.K.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,704 ✭✭✭G.K.


    Oranage2 wrote: »
    Well I said moneyball doesnt work -


    Stats are useful but there are too many variables in football for just going on stats.

    As for moneyball, Baseball has drafts and wage/budget caps when signing players. Football has relatively none up to recently    .

    What? This is irrelevant - the point is using the right stats combined with other factors, top quality players could be aquired cheaply.

    Newcastle are the team closest to applying the strategy, and I mean, they're just failing utterly.


  • #1091
    kryogen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,953 ✭✭✭✭kryogen


    I am pie wrote: »
    Yawn. Another Liverpool obsessed Manc super fan. Take a number and get in line.

    Becoming obsessed with looking for spots to call people obsessed eh?


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  • #1092
    G.K.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,704 ✭✭✭G.K.


    KeithAFC wrote: »
    I looked it up on amazon and it seems to come from baseball?

    it's about baseball but plenty of the principles, if adjusted correctly, should be able to be applied to many sports.


  • #1093
    Sgt Pepper 64
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,627 ✭✭✭Sgt Pepper 64


    Might as well close this thread then
    The blames been put on someone else, a goalkeeping coach and the bloke who helped broker the deals for the players KENNY wanted!

    He's got his vote of confidence

    So, same time next year?!:eek:


  • #1094
    donalg1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,513 ✭✭✭donalg1


    I am pie wrote: »
    mufcboy1999 wrote: »
    I'd give the champions league victory to You in 05 but don't be bragging about that Micky mouse treble and carling cups lol.

    Try winning the league and come back to me until then ye will always a mediocre team who happen to over achieve every so often.

    Yawn. Another Liverpool obsessed Manc super fan. Take a number and get in line.

    I don't see how a united fan could be obsessed with Liverpool, probably just enjoy watching them getting worse every year and watching manager after manager failing at the club.

    If anything it's the lfc fans with the obsession can't really blame them seeing as they are watching united win trophy after trophy year after year. No harm in being obsessed with that they might even learn something about being successful (might bring the operative word if course)


  • #1095
    Jesus Wept
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,243 ✭✭✭✭Jesus Wept


    donalg1 wrote: »
    I don't see how a united fan could be obsessed with Liverpool, probably just enjoy watching them getting worse every year and watching manager after manager failing at the club.

    If anything it's the lfc fans with the obsession can't really blame them seeing as they are watching united win trophy after trophy year after year. No harm in being obsessed with that they might even learn something about being successful (might bring the operative word if course)

    1/10


  • #1096
    Oranage2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,129 ✭✭✭✭Oranage2


    KeithAFC wrote: »
    I looked it up on amazon and it seems to come from baseball?

    It's just basically using stats to field a team ie. player X hits so many runs.


    G.K. wrote: »
    What? This is irrelevant - the point is using the right stats combined with other factors, top quality players could be aquired cheaply.

    Newcastle are the team closest to applying the strategy, and I mean, they're just failing utterly.

    Well, they used value in the market - There's nothing to say they wont fall off next season, Ba and Cisse could easily just stop scoring and AFAIK it has already happened to Ba.

    The only way to win in football is by having the best players playing in a formation that suits them. Tried and tested!


  • #1097
    G.K.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,704 ✭✭✭G.K.


    Oranage2 wrote: »
    It's just basically using stats to field a team ie. player X hits so many runs.

    Please read the book so you know what you are talking about. It's not anything as that simple.
    Oranage2 wrote: »
    Well, they used value in the market - There's nothing to say they wont fall off next season, Ba and Cisse could easily just stop scoring and AFAIK it has already happened to Ba.

    The only way to win in football is by having the best players playing in a formation that suits them. Tried and tested!

    No. Just no.

    Btw Ba's been moved to the left flank recently, that's why he's not been scoring.


  • #1098
    Nalz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,060 ✭✭✭✭Nalz


    I am pie wrote: »
    Yawn. Another Liverpool obsessed Manc super fan. Take a number and get in line.

    Yawn... Another Liverpool fan pointing out another .........................bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla

    bla.


  • #1099
    PhlegmyMoses
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,906 ✭✭✭✭PhlegmyMoses


    G.K. wrote: »
    What? This is irrelevant - the point is using the right stats combined with other factors, top quality players could be aquired cheaply.

    Newcastle are the team closest to applying the strategy, and I mean, they're just failing utterly.

    Have Newcastle ever said that they were using a moneyball strategy? They seem to just scout well and take a punt on players that others are wary of due to injuries and attitude such as Ben Arfa and Ba.

    Cisse shows us another variable not as prominent in the US - the fact that the majority of the world's best baseball players play in the league you are purchasing them to play in. A lot of people had heard of Cisse and had an idea that he was doing well for Hoffenheim.

    But then, it's hard to know whether this will translate over to the PL. Dzeko was immense for Wolfsburg but has hardly lit up the league. Mame Biram Diouf is now banging them in for Hannover but never really looked that kind of player for United. Cisse could have gone either way.

    There are also tactical systems that players will do well in that the signing team are unwilling to use. For instance, Leon Britton has been excellent is Swansea's patient, passing game where the whole system suits his playing style.

    If, say, Manchester United recognise that they need a midfielder to replace Scholes, look at Scholes' passing stats and then look at Britton's it would be reasonable to surmise that he would suit United to a tee. But then, United's passing game is different. They need inch perfect passes to the wingers, forward passes to the strikers. They are constantly putting the other team under pressure and need probing passes that bring teammates into play in dangerous areas. Does Leon Britton suit this?

    Basically, you can look at all the stats you want in football but the most effective analysis is qualitative. It will henceforth be known as Useyoureyesball.


  • #1100
    Oranage2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,129 ✭✭✭✭Oranage2


    G.K. wrote: »
    Please read the book so you know what you are talking about. It's not anything as that simple.



    No. Just no.

    Btw Ba's been moved to the left flank recently, that's why he's not been scoring.


    That's why I said basically...


    And do you actually believe that Newcastle is a modern moneyball?

    I may be a bit older than you because I've seen 100s of strikers have wonder seasons esp ones from African.

    I've also seen many teams have wonder seasons just to be crap the next one.


    Moneyball doesnt work in football

    FACT


  • #1101
    StephenHendry
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,146 ✭✭✭StephenHendry


    donalg1 wrote: »
    Dont think Kenny will be sacked I'd imagine he will walk himself if anything. He is obviously cracking under the pressure and isn't up to the job at all.

    kenny is kind in a win situation. he will and always be a legend in the club even if he throws in the ropes in the summer. the fans will point the finger at others anyway.


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  • #1102
    G.K.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,704 ✭✭✭G.K.


    Oranage2 wrote: »
    And do you actually believe that Newcastle is a modern moneyball?

    No, that's not what I said.
    PhlegmyMoses wrote: »
    There are also tactical systems that players will do well in that the signing team are unwilling to use. For instance, Leon Britton has been excellent is Swansea's patient, passing game where the whole system suits his playing style.

    If, say, Manchester United recognise that they need a midfielder to replace Scholes, look at Scholes' passing stats and then look at Britton's it would be reasonable to surmise that he would suit United to a tee. But then, United's passing game is different. They need inch perfect passes to the wingers, forward passes to the strikers. They are constantly putting the other team under pressure and need probing passes that bring teammates into play in dangerous areas. Does Leon Britton suit this?

    Basically, you can look at all the stats you want in football but the most effective analysis is qualitative. It will henceforth be known as Useyoureyesball.

    That's why stats have to be used in tandem with other points in football, such as watching players several times with several scouts, to get an idea of how or if they would fit into a system. But the stats can help you sift the inefficient fom the efficient ones in the first place.


  • #1103
    KeithAFC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,239 ✭✭✭✭KeithAFC


    Oranage2 wrote: »
    That's why I said basically...


    And do you actually believe that Newcastle is a modern moneyball?

    I may be a bit older than you because I've seen 100s of strikers have wonder seasons esp ones from African.

    I've also seen many teams have wonder seasons just to be crap the next one.


    Moneyball doesnt work in football

    FACT
    I agree. Football is too deep for that to work.


  • #1104
    Dr Galen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,373 ✭✭✭Dr Galen


    Oranage2 wrote: »


    Moneyball doesnt work in football

    FACT

    Thats exactly what they said in baseball

    They were wrong

    FACT


  • #1105
    PhlegmyMoses
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,906 ✭✭✭✭PhlegmyMoses


    The thing is, though, the most successful team of the PL era doesn't seem to implement this strategy at all. Fergie buys youth. Players who haven't built up a base of stats worth analysing. Smalling from Fulham, Jones from Blackburn, Hernandez from Guadlajara, Valencia from Wigan, Ronaldo and Nani from Lisbon, Vidic from Belgrade and De Gea from Atletico. These players were all bought through scouting and watching the players and knowing that they suited United's style and can be developed further due to their age. Barca are similar, without actually buying anyone.

    Moneyball may suit short to medium term needs and it may suit teams who want to get to the stage where they can have long term projects but I'm not sure that it's suited to the higher echelons of football. Full disclosure, though, I haven't read the book. My understanding of the concept comes from articles and blogs so I may need to read the book to get a clearer picture.


  • #1106
    LuckyLloyd
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,636 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    KeithAFC wrote: »
    I looked it up on amazon and it seems to come from baseball?

    Oh so you didn't read it. You should probably shut the **** about it then until you've read it (or at least grasped the basic concepts) tbh.


  • #1107
    Will I Amnt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,222 ✭✭✭✭Will I Amnt


    PhlegmyMoses wrote: »
    Have Newcastle ever said that they were using a moneyball strategy? They seem to just scout well and take a punt on players that others are wary of due to injuries and attitude such as Ben Arfa and Ba.

    Cisse shows us another variable not as prominent in the US - the fact that the majority of the world's best baseball players play in the league you are purchasing them to play in. A lot of people had heard of Cisse and had an idea that he was doing well for Hoffenheim.

    But then, it's hard to know whether this will translate over to the PL. Dzeko was immense for Wolfsburg but has hardly lit up the league. Mame Biram Diouf is now banging them in for Hannover but never really looked that kind of player for United. Cisse could have gone either way.

    There are also tactical systems that players will do well in that the signing team are unwilling to use. For instance, Leon Britton has been excellent is Swansea's patient, passing game where the whole system suits his playing style.

    If, say, Manchester United recognise that they need a midfielder to replace Scholes, look at Scholes' passing stats and then look at Britton's it would be reasonable to surmise that he would suit United to a tee. But then, United's passing game is different. They need inch perfect passes to the wingers, forward passes to the strikers. They are constantly putting the other team under pressure and need probing passes that bring teammates into play in dangerous areas. Does Leon Britton suit this?

    Basically, you can look at all the stats you want in football but the most effective analysis is qualitative. It will henceforth be known as Useyoureyesball.
    Excellent post,moneyball does not have nearly the same relevance in football as other sports.
    And Newcastle,because they signed a player with a good goals to game ratio are not using it in their transfer dealings.
    That's just common sense.
    They signed Obertan ffs.


  • #1108
    LuckyLloyd
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,636 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    donalg1 wrote: »
    I don't see how a united fan could be obsessed with Liverpool, probably just enjoy watching them getting worse every year and watching manager after manager failing at the club.

    If anything it's the lfc fans with the obsession can't really blame them seeing as they are watching united win trophy after trophy year after year. No harm in being obsessed with that they might even learn something about being successful (might bring the operative word if course)

    Belly flop and loads of splash back imo.


  • #1109
    Oranage2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,129 ✭✭✭✭Oranage2


    Dr Galen wrote: »
    Thats exactly what they said in baseball

    They were wrong

    FACT


    And Football is

    different to Baseball

    FACT


  • #1110
    Will I Amnt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,222 ✭✭✭✭Will I Amnt


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    Oh so you didn't read it. You should probably shut the **** about it then until you've read it (or at least grasped the basic concepts) tbh.
    Sorry if I'm getting you mixed up with someone else but I keep picturing you as Tex from Alan Partridge......Americanise everything.


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  • #1111
    LuckyLloyd
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,636 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    Your argument that sorting football players by OBP wouldn't yield spectacular results in the transfer market are undoubtedly correct. As such, the concepts of moneyball could never become workable in a football context. :rolleyes:


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