Should Irish be an optional subject not a cumpulsory one

Wibbs · 12-04-2012 10:05PM

Happyman42 wrote: »

Any sources for your delusions yet? :rolleyes:

Ehhh HM42 I'm hardly a standard bearing Gaelgoir

but Gaelscoils do show better results in general than other public schools. However like I said I don't think the language has nearly as much to do with it as the Irish lobby make out.

Happyman42 · 12-04-2012 11:11PM

Wibbs wrote: »

Ehhh HM42 I'm hardly a standard bearing Gaelgoir but Gaelscoils do show better results in general than other public schools. However like I said I don't think the language has nearly as much to do with it as the Irish lobby make out.

The comment wasn't directed at you.

I'm just looking for credible sources for that statement, how is it tested btw?

Wibbs · 13-04-2012 08:21AM

I would presume that it's based on the percentage that go onto third level. At least that's the figure that keeps cropping up. The only figure that goes beyond the nebulous "of course a Gaelscoil education is better" stuff. I can't recall any other results, beyond generic bilingual children do better. That in itself might be debatable too. While I would personally believe it's better for the developing brain(and indeed adult brain) to have a second language, I'd be looking more closely at the sample groups. Particularly in western nations.

Worldwide bilingual cultures are much more common than monoglot cultures. A great many cultures in the world have two or more languages. Ireland and the UK have one thing very much in common. Very low level of bilingualism going on. Even in the US which may appear monoglot many people have Spanish as well as American English. Does this proffer and advantage on the bilingual cultures? I would again assume it does, but many of those cultures are quite behind in other ways.

In a monoglot culture like Ireland, bilingual children may have other advantages. More "middle class" educated parents. More parents from different cultures. IE a kid with say a French mother and Irish father is being exposed to a more varied cultural palate, which is likely to be advantageous. Immigrant parents may be more likely to be "get up and go" personalities than those who stay in the origin country which might have an affect too.

It's a complex one. However I still feel that with regard to Gaescoils the subset of more involved and affluent parents makes a bigger difference than the language itself.

Happyman42 wrote:

@Wibbs, sorry I can't take a page from Wiki that is so slanted, it might have been written by Peig, as a source

yea I get that alright. It's clearly biased and repeats the erroneous stats as far as the level of fluency in the Irish language. I mean claims like "There are 39,594 Irish speakers[in Leinster] are imaginative at best and daft at worst. IMHO this is the biggest problem with the Irish language lobby and for the future of the language itself. Dubious figures masquerading as support. Most feel even subconsciously that it's not true, so tend to disbelief overall. If reality ws engaged more, I reckon more people would actually get behind the language. In short people hate being bullshítted, so tend to dig in heels or even more and worse think "meh".

13-04-2012 08:26AM

I don't think any Irish speaker, or anyone really, believes there is 1.7 million people in Ireland that use Irish in any meaningful way.

The question is "can you speak it" (or something like that?) and that is relatively true imo but it does not mean in anyway that anywhere near that number actually do use the language it just means they are able to considering they did 14 years of school and potentially went to the Gaeltacht etc.

1.7% of the pop using it daily is accurate imo (77,185 people and 66,238 of those would be in Gaeltacht areas and in fact not even that because many of those only say they speak Irish for the grant). The number who can use it in the Gaeltacht even looks roughly accurate (if a bit high) at 68.5% of the 90 odd thousand in those areas.

It does not really matter. The language is healthy enough considering its history and the level that minority languages are and have been dieing for a long time now. Not as strong as Welsh but growing.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/number-claiming-they-speak-irish-reaches-17-million-3066549.html

Wibbs · 13-04-2012 08:53AM

I'd say more stable than growing when compared to overall population growth. The population rose by nearly 8%, while the population of claimed Irish speakers rose by just over 7%. The Irish lobby spin this as X amount of people speak Irish more and avoid the obvious overall population percentage rise.

Stable is good though, given it's remarkable decline in usage since the foundation of the state and all the support of said state. Have a read of this study into the contraction of the language in that time.

To save time a visual is probably better.

Gaeltachts in 1926
Gaeltachts in 2007

13-04-2012 09:06AM

That less than 1% would likely be people coming into the country who the majority of which would not learn Irish (some do, but the majority don't for obvious reasons)

You could look at the erosion of the Gaeltacht and the decline of native speakers and take that to mean Irish is contracting but that ignores all the people outside the Gaeltacht who have picked it up. By that I mean to look at it is the growth outside the Gaeltacht.

The number of Native daily speakers in the Gaeltacht has dropped, drastically but I think it is hard to say the language is in a weaker position now than it was when the Gaeltachts were bigger.

Wibbs · 13-04-2012 09:51AM

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

The number of Native daily speakers in the Gaeltacht has dropped, drastically but I think it is hard to say the language is in a weaker position now than it was when the Gaeltachts were bigger.

I don't think it's hard to say at all. The functional health of any system is weakened when it's in such decline "in the wild". Imagine those two maps were describing the loss of say a wild native tree. The World Wildlife Fund or whatever would be having kittens. If said tree was being grown by hobbyists in gardens outside the habitat, but most were growing hybrids the original tree would be in serious trouble. Odd analogy I grant you, but not too far off IMH.

Our attitudes to the Irish language are a bit odd and contradictory. Has been for some time too. I'd love to know why. I mean when you have people like O'Connell a native speaker and a man no one could accuse of not being an Irish patriot musing about not breathing a sigh at the loss of the language, you have to wonder.

The other bit that fascinates me is that the Irish diaspora around the world very quickly abandoned it. In contrast to other emigrant populations who didn't. Even more odd when you look at Irish Americans who are pretty gung ho when it comes to the wearing of the green and have been since the get go. Fiercely attached to the old sod, yet outside of a few rare diehards they dropped the language like a hot rock. Even odder when unlike say Italians they didn't have nearly as great a need to learn a "new" language when they got to America as they would have had some fluency in English already. Then again maybe that's it. Because they had English they didn't bother to keep speaking the old tongue? They could fit in to more locales whereas the Italians or Chinese stuck more together bonded by their languages?

You mention the Welsh. There is a Welsh speaking colony in Argentina of all places. Yep mad or wha?:) Argentina has a much larger population with Irish ancestry than Welsh. Che Guevara(Lynch) being one of it's more famous sons. Yet no cupla focal*.

Enkidu on another forum hereabouts explained(and I'm really paraphrashing the chap here

:)) that around 1700 Irish was the majority language. Even within the Pale and among the upper classes they learned and spoke it and presumably valued it. By 1800 this had changed pretty drastically. I gather we have no records between these dates so it's extrapolation. A dark period where Irish goes from majority to decline. A decline that continues to this day. Even with the significant support of our state. Even with the surface support that the majority apparently have for it. Something happened and it happened long before the great Famine that is often blamed for a steep decline in the language. Something switched in the cultural mind that said "this is less valuable". I'd love to know what that something was. It would be easy to blame "the Brits" and yes that would have been an influence, but I suspect it was a decline with many fathers and more subtle than that. It seems the switch that was flicked stayed flicked even when we as a people left and settled all over the globe. Even more odd as most of those people in the 19th century would have been the rural native Irish speakers. It's puzzling.

*No doubt someone will claim "Gaeltachts" in the US or wherever, but lets be honest the Irish language equivalent of Little Italy or Chinatown they are not.

13-04-2012 10:14AM

I suppose you can argue anything.

I would argue it is in a stronger state in that it has grown in the other 90% of the country which is not the traditional Gaeltacht.

Imagine 2 set of trees in the wild. One is very common in very small parts of the country and the other is less common but more distributed all over the country. I would take the one who is more distributed and a lot more diverse and viable.

To claim Patagonia but disregard Irish speaking populations in America and Canada is ludicrous and is very very selective. Also if you actually look into it the Welsh speaking area actually has a much larger welsh population than Irish and a much more closed off group of settler too hence keeping the language.

Also on O'connell you do not have to worry much, it was a personal opinion his family were irish speakers and he chose not to be. His message would be lost on a lot of people if he chose to speak mainly in irish. Fairly simple really, especially in dublin and the power areas at the time speaking irish would get him few places.

On immigrants losing the language. Most made a conscious (somewhat forced) choice to forget it before they left. Irish was of no use in England, America or elsewhere.

Exactly the Irish tried to fit in more (like the Japanese a lot later) but a lot of the Irish had already lost or had made a conscious choice to abandon the language before they even left.

If you know your Irish history the fact that Irish went from majority to minority between 1700 and 1800 and worsened all the way up to the late 19th century (unless you are talking native speakers in which case it continued to drop) should not really be a surprise.

Also anyone with power had not spoken Irish for a lot longer before 1700.

Irish was prohibited in schools until 1871.

LordSutch · 13-04-2012 10:33AM

I wonder was there ever a presumption that once we left the UK that Irish would take off and become the DeFacto everyday spoken language?

Eight decades later and the Irish language is bumbling along as always, something/nothing has worked to spark it into life, the usual arguments still abound, all this this despite Irish being compulsory for all school children since the foundation of the state, yet somehow the Welsh language has taken off, and this despite/because? they remain in the UK.

13-04-2012 10:38AM

LordSutch wrote: »

I wonder was there ever a presumption that once we left the UK that Irish would take off and become the DeFacto everyday spoken language?

Eight decades later and the Irish language is bumbling along as always, something/nothing has worked to spark it into life, the usual arguments still abound, all this this despite Irish being compulsory for all school children since the foundation of the state, yet somehow the Welsh language has taken off, and this despite/because? they remain in the UK.

Not even by the craziest of crazys afaik.

Bumbling along just fine. Welsh being more popular is for many reasons but yes them staying in the UK has a part to play. Scotland is part of the UK too but that did not help Gaelic at all, nor did it help Breton.

Welsh is much much more affected by the English language than Irish though. Also the % of welsh that know any welsh is much lower than irish people than know any irish.

the purple tin · 13-04-2012 10:39AM

Stick up a poll there OP.

Wibbs · 13-04-2012 11:10AM

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

I would argue it is in a stronger state in that it has grown in the other 90% of the country which is not the traditional Gaeltacht.

The point is it hasn't. The simple fact is outside education far fewer people as a percentage(and damn near in numbers) speak Irish anywhere in Ireland compared to the numbers and percentage at the foundation of the Irish state. Gaeltacht or no.

Imagine 2 set of trees in the wild. One is very common in very small parts of the country and the other is less common but more distributed all over the country. I would take the one who is more distributed and a lot more diverse and viable.

The point is it's not particularly diverse and viable.

To claim Patagonia but disregard Irish speaking populations in America and Canada is ludicrous and is very very selective.

Show me an Irish speaking population in those places that gets within an asses roar of the Patagonian Welsh never mind a Chinatown or Little Italy. Bear in mind that the Irish diaspora is larger than those two put together.

Also if you actually look into it the Welsh speaking area actually has a much larger welsh population than Irish and a much more closed off group of settler too hence keeping the language.

So you've never heard of Boston or New York then? Huge Irish populations.

Also on O'connell you do not have to worry much, it was a personal opinion his family were irish speakers and he chose not to be.

Untrue. He continued to speak Irish throughout hi s life.

His message would be lost on a lot of people if he chose to speak mainly in irish. Fairly simple really, especially in dublin and the power areas at the time speaking irish would get him few places.

Eh no. In any case you're missing the point.

On immigrants losing the language. Most made a conscious (somewhat forced) choice to forget it before they left. Irish was of no use in England, America or elsewhere.

Neither was Spanish, French, Italian, Yiddish, Russian or Chinese. The only other obvious group that were similar to us were Polish Americans.

Exactly the Irish tried to fit in more (like the Japanese a lot later) but a lot of the Irish had already lost or had made a conscious choice to abandon the language before they even left.

Point one the majority of the Irish emigres of the 19th century would have been native Irish speakers so they hadn't already lost it. It was their first language. Indeed there are records of Irish speaking priests holding masses in the language for that generation. Point two if external pressure was being brought to bear on the language in Ireland, that pressure would have been significantly less in the US. In other areas the Irish ran with that. In the US we become very political very early on when the British obstruction is removed. The language by contrast blows away on the wind like so much smoke within a generation. By the time of the Gaelic revival that kicked off in the late 19th century* there were very very few with a facility with the language. That's my point. Compared to other emigre cultures we seemed to see the language as less valuable, even without the British around.

That has continued to today to a great degree. Look at what happened with Basque after Franco died. Look at what happened with the former eastern bloc nations after the Russians had left. Obviously they can't be direct comparisons, but it does seem their attachment to their respective languages is in practical terms stronger than ours has been for at least 200 years.

Welsh is much much more affected by the English language than Irish though.

Huh?

Also the % of welsh that know any welsh is much lower than irish people than know any irish.

Now you are having a laugh. There are significantly more fluent Welsh speakers than fluent Irish speakers, both in actual numbers and by percentage. Are you trying to claim that because I "know" how to say "open a window" in Irish I "know" Irish? And that I should be added to the overall numbers? That this has any bearing on the state of the language? Then you better add me in as someone who knows some Welsh too as I can say "Yaki da". Jesus.

*seems to have been a time for such revivals. European cultures all started to look back to their halcyon days. Jews, Germans, French, even the English too. Though the Celtic revival was among the most popular(and often horribly inaccurate). Even non Irish, Welsh and Scots tried to get in on the act. Queen Victoria was damn near Ach aye the nooing.

The Welsh language revival kicked off at that time and similar with the Irish language revival.

MaroonAndGreen · 13-04-2012 12:17PM

I think it should be compulsory.

Its a really important part of our tradition.

I do understand the arguments against it though

LordSutch · 13-04-2012 02:09PM

MaroonAndGreen wrote: »

I think it should be compulsory.

But to what avail? another eight decades of compulsory Irish, accompanied by indifference by the general public - surely this is not right!

Wibbs · 13-04-2012 02:09PM

MaroonAndGreen wrote: »

Its a really important part of our tradition.

Is it though? Or more precisely how important is it? I agree it is part of our collective tradition, but successive generations have in a practical sense shown that it's not as important as we may choose to believe on the surface. Visitors to our country are often confused by our somewhat schizoid attitudes towards the language. "IT"S OUR LANGUAGE!!!" shouted loud and proud. In the vast majority of cases as Bearla. We may blame the English, the famine, crap schooling and any number of things. Yes they have a part to play, but IMHO the biggest part to play is us ourselves. Over two centuries regardless of external pressures or support we as a people have consistently said it's not important enough.

WillieFlynn · 13-04-2012 02:35PM

"Within schools Ruairí Quinn has made the point that a third of teaching time in primary schools is devoted to Irish and religion." Aaron McKenna http://bit.ly/Ig8KaW

So we should all be able to say our prayers through Irish at that rate. I didn't realise that so much time was taken up by those two subjects.

Whatever about teaching Irish, however I don't think religion should be thought in schools, it should be up to each church to organise it at their own expense after school.

riclad · 13-04-2012 03:02PM

ITS like a couple with 4 kids,who cannot pay the mortgage,buying a new car every year,its financial madness.Compulsory irish is a luxury we cannot afford.WE will end up like greece if we do not use the financial resources in a logical manner ,to run a modern educational system.

LordSutch · 13-04-2012 03:26PM

WillieFlynn wrote: »

"Within schools Ruairí Quinn has made the point that a third of teaching time in primary schools is devoted to Irish and religion." Aaron McKenna http://bit.ly/Ig8KaW

So we should all be able to say our prayers through Irish at that rate. I didn't realise that so much time was taken up by those two subjects.

Thanks for that link above^ and the part that leaps off the page re this discussion is this quote by government minister Ruairi Quinn "School time is a precious commodity. Many schools spend more time on Irish as a core subject than the ‘option’ subjects, like science. Is this the best use of time? I don’t think so" . . . .

Here here Ruairi.

GaryIrv93 · 14-04-2012 04:06PM

I've heard a good few people say things like ''if you want to abolish Irish as a compulsory subject, you're ignorant. It's part of our heritage, culture etc'' To those people, who's more ignorant in this case: The person who'd rather spend their time learning something they see a value in, or the person who wants to force everyone else to learn something they see a value in?

deise go deo · 16-04-2012 12:03AM

Wibbs wrote: »

While the figures made a leap in the late nineties and early naughties it seems to have leveled out since as far as the number of new Gaelscoileanna goes.

Well the Government refusing to recognise any new Gaelscoileanna between 2008 and 2010 did'nt really help. (One did manage to open anyway with the help of the wider Irish Language movement)
About a quarter of schools to be opened in the near future will be Gaelscoileanna/Gaelcholaisteanna though.

grindle · 16-04-2012 12:14AM

GaryIrv93 wrote: »

I've heard a good few people say things like ''if you want to abolish Irish as a compulsory subject, you're ignorant. It's part of our heritage, culture etc'' To those people, who's more ignorant in this case: The person who'd rather spend their time learning something they see a value in, or the person who wants to force everyone else to learn something they see a value in?

Ignorant people don't understand logic or have any solid rationale as a foundation for their ridiculous convictions, so the probability of them comprehending and computing that sentence and spitting out the only reasonable answer is virtually nil, unless one of them is ignorance-defective or had their brain wiped and reinstalled with the all new SmartBrain OS.

deise go deo · 16-04-2012 01:08AM

LordSutch wrote: »

yet somehow the Welsh language has taken off, and this despite/because? they remain in the UK.

Welsh continued to decline untill the 70/80's. A radio broadcast on the state of the language by Saunders Lewis called 'The fate of the Language' in 1962 became a rallying call

''I predict that the figures published in the near future will shock and disappoint those of us who consider that Wales will not be Welsh without the Welsh Language, I also predict that if the present trend continues, Welsh will cease to exist as a living language twords the begenning of the 21st century, granting that Britain will still be inhabited by human beings at that time. Thus at long last, the Policy set out in the measure called the act of Union of Wales and England in 1536 as an aim for the English Government in Waels will have succeeded''

''Go to it in earnest and without wavering, to make it impossible to conduct local authority or central Government business without the Welsh lanugage. Insist on the rate demand being either in Welsh or Bilingual. Give notice to the Postmaster General that annual licences will not be paid unless they are available in Welsh. This is not a haphazard policy for isolated individuals, it would be essential to organize it and to proceed step by step, giving notice of intent and allowing time for the changes to be made. It is a policy for a movement, and that movement should be active in those areas where Welsh is the everyday spoken language, demanding that all election papers be in Welsh, raising the Welsh language to be the main adminstrative medium of district and county''.

At the same time the destruction of the village of Capel Celyn to make way for a resevoir to supply Liverpool and the protests that surrounded it became a symbol of Wales's impotence within the UK and the damage that was being caused both phsically and Culturally as a result, they became a rallying cry for nationalists and Language enthusiasts alike to the extent that today the notion that there can be a Wales without the Welsh Language is one that seems outdated and rather foolish.

Despite all this however, it would be rather wrong to claim that Welsh has 'taken off'. The overall decline of the Welsh language was not halted untill the 90's and has only enjoyed moddest growth since its absoulute low in the 80's, while the Welsh speeking heartland's in the north of the country have continued to decline, though at a reduced rate than was previously the case.

To compare the situation of the Irish language to the situation of Welsh in Wales is interesting, both languages are no longer in decline but Welsh stabelised at around 20% of the population while Irish fell to around 5%.
Irish medium education is currently at 6% and aspires to achieve 25% of the total share while Welsh Medium education is currently at 23% and is aspiring for 50%.
Irish has a long way to go to catch up to where Welsh is today, we are probably around 20 years behind, but I am confident that things are going in the right direction.

partyatmygaff · 16-04-2012 02:13AM

Wasting student's limited time by forcing them to take a subject they don't need just to fit someone's idealistic dream of bringing back a dying language is nothing short of ridiculous.

If someone wants to make Irish a viable language language, they can do so on their own time with like-minded people.

radioactiveman · 16-04-2012 03:08AM

We should teach it but do it properly. It's not that Irish teachers are doing a bad job, it's the way we go about it. A dummy's guide to Irish grammar would help a lot (not in Irish ffs we don't speak it yet!!!). In school from the start and the whole way through I always had the feeling that I was behind and "should know this already".

Also a new dictionary should be published with a lot of detail in it. I never had a proper dictionary in school, only a 1 to 1 equivalence dictionary which doesn't allow you to see a word in context. Maybe that was my fault.

Also I think Irish people in general need to motivate themselves more. Not just blame teachers (translation: "If you were motivated enough you'd f**kin learn it!")

Just a personal point of view I think it's too important to give up. People don't realise the value of their own language..

radioactiveman · 16-04-2012 03:20AM

partyatmygaff wrote: »

Wasting student's limited time by forcing them to take a subject they don't need just to fit someone's idealistic dream of bringing back a dying language is nothing short of ridiculous.

If someone wants to make Irish a viable language language, they can do so on their own time with like-minded people.

It's only an idealistic dream if we decide it's impossible and not worth doing. It is possible for people to improve their level of Irish to a point where they can use it every day without going for the goal of it replacing English. In our lifetimes replacing English with Irish is a pipe dream but there's no reason we can't improve.

You don't "need" any of the subjects in secondary school except if they're directly needed for your degree course (if that). That doesn't mean you shouldn't study them.

The more contact you have with a language the more you will learn it without actually working at it.

lisaface · 16-04-2012 03:28AM

Hey OP, great debatable topic - I've heard this one far too many times, (not saying youre being a repetative person ,sorry) and it's a hard one to call. I think the majority of Irish people have that out-look, i mean at least those who have recently graduated secondary school or are close to graduating.

It's true, I used to think I had terrible teachers (probably a combination of both) but in fact it was just my lack of 'oomf' for the language. English and a few others have always been my strong point, but I would find it sad (upsetting) to see the language be completely done-away with, because we all know there will only be a small percentage of students willing to learn the language and soon aftet that they will just remove it completely. For nationalists (i'm not on about the nasty ira ,to anyone who takes this our of context) it would cause a never-ending battle! However, you've compared the language to areas that are losing out, I don't think that's fair, why not compare it to another language... keep it on terms - ie , have Irish at a choices basis once you reach secondary level, just like the other languages you get to choose from; german, spanish, french, etc!

As much as I would like to say yes I am 100% for the optional choices of our language to be permitted within our education system, the quote by padraig pearse springs to mind "Tír gan teanga, tír gan anam", I honestly believe a language-less (that even a word, it is now :P) country ,has no soul. As much debt as our language is causing our country, it wouldn't be the same without it, and I truly feel it would be done-away with due to figures.

Sidenote: People need to remember that our language is progressing, from the days of when my grandparents ,my parents and even I learnt the language - to now-a-days, my younger relatives are speaking a language, I cannot comprehend, we need a middle ground in the teaching world!

/my two cents

16-04-2012 03:38AM

radioactiveman wrote: »

Also a new dictionary should be published with a lot of detail in it. I never had a proper dictionary in school, only a 1 to 1 equivalence dictionary which doesn't allow you to see a word in context. Maybe that was my fault.

Also I think Irish people in general need to motivate themselves more. Not just blame teachers (translation: "If you were motivated enough you'd f**kin learn it!")

Just a personal point of view I think it's too important to give up. People don't realise the value of their own language..

There is one being published soon. But lack of dictionaries is not a problem. The problem is the Department of Education having a deal with Collins and the likes and not opening up the market to other publishers.

Also there is focal.ie and around 20+ other online Irish dictionaries.

But otherwise I agree 100%

Wibbs · 16-04-2012 10:08AM

deise go deo wrote: »

About a quarter of schools to be opened in the near future will be Gaelscoileanna/Gaelcholaisteanna though.

Maybe. I'll believe it when I see it though.

lisaface wrote: »

the quote by padraig pearse springs to mind "Tír gan teanga, tír gan anam", I honestly believe a language-less (that even a word, it is now :P) country ,has no soul.

Then that leaves an awful lot of countries out there soulless. Have I dunno, the Brazilians no soul? Australians, Americans, Austrians? Hell French wasn't standardised until remarkably recently. The Swiss must be fierce confused as well as soulless. *Aside*TBH I always found Patrick Pearse a bit of a pain in the arse. Brave hell yes, but talk about overly dramatic. And a religious nutjob with it.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 16-04-2012 10:20AM

radioactiveman wrote: »

We should teach it but do it properly. It's not that Irish teachers are doing a bad job, it's the way we go about it. A dummy's guide to Irish grammar would help a lot (not in Irish ffs we don't speak it yet!!!). In school from the start and the whole way through I always had the feeling that I was behind and "should know this already".

Also a new dictionary should be published with a lot of detail in it. I never had a proper dictionary in school, only a 1 to 1 equivalence dictionary which doesn't allow you to see a word in context. Maybe that was my fault.

Also I think Irish people in general need to motivate themselves more. Not just blame teachers (translation: "If you were motivated enough you'd f**kin learn it!")

Just a personal point of view I think it's too important to give up. People don't realise the value of their own language..

radioactiveman wrote: »

It's only an idealistic dream if we decide it's impossible and not worth doing. It is possible for people to improve their level of Irish to a point where they can use it every day without going for the goal of it replacing English. In our lifetimes replacing English with Irish is a pipe dream but there's no reason we can't improve.

You don't "need" any of the subjects in secondary school except if they're directly needed for your degree course (if that). That doesn't mean you shouldn't study them.

The more contact you have with a language the more you will learn it without actually working at it.

Again, good points, but not relevant. The topic, is "should it be compulsory?" and not "should it be improved?". No matter how good it is (and if it good and you guys are right, most people will want to take it anyway) the crux of the argument is this: should the individual student have the right to say no or to disagree?

And as Ireland is free country, and as Ireland prides itself on a quality education system, there is a huge paradox in saying "no, we don't think they should" or "no, we don't think they are able to."

lisaface wrote: »

Hey OP, great debatable topic - I've heard this one far too many times, (not saying youre being a repetative person ,sorry) and it's a hard one to call. I think the majority of Irish people have that out-look, i mean at least those who have recently graduated secondary school or are close to graduating.

It's true, I used to think I had terrible teachers (probably a combination of both) but in fact it was just my lack of 'oomf' for the language. English and a few others have always been my strong point, but I would find it sad (upsetting) to see the language be completely done-away with, because we all know there will only be a small percentage of students willing to learn the language and soon aftet that they will just remove it completely. For nationalists (i'm not on about the nasty ira ,to anyone who takes this our of context) it would cause a never-ending battle! However, you've compared the language to areas that are losing out, I don't think that's fair, why not compare it to another language... keep it on terms - ie , have Irish at a choices basis once you reach secondary level, just like the other languages you get to choose from; german, spanish, french, etc!

As much as I would like to say yes I am 100% for the optional choices of our language to be permitted within our education system, the quote by padraig pearse springs to mind "Tír gan teanga, tír gan anam", I honestly believe a language-less (that even a word, it is now :P) country ,has no soul. As much debt as our language is causing our country, it wouldn't be the same without it, and I truly feel it would be done-away with due to figures.

Sidenote: People need to remember that our language is progressing, from the days of when my grandparents ,my parents and even I learnt the language - to now-a-days, my younger relatives are speaking a language, I cannot comprehend, we need a middle ground in the teaching world! /my two cents

I disagree with you here: if it's done right and if's done properly, I think making it optional would be more benefitial to the language.

north cider · 16-04-2012 10:20AM

Irish should be an optional subject, from primary school up ! It was beaten into me all through primary school and i have a deep and abiding hatred of it !!! it is, to me anyway, a dead language and of no use outside of ireland !!! It took me getting a F in the inter cert before the educational system decided they were flogging a dead horse by trying to stuff irish into my head and transferred me into history instead for the leaving cert.

Should Irish be an optional subject not a cumpulsory one

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