Should Irish be an optional subject not a cumpulsory one

09-04-2012 09:55PM

Wilberto wrote: »

All I want to say is, out of all the people I know, I would say, as high as 8 or 9 out of 10 would love to be fluent in Irish. In other words, the want of the people to speak their native tongue is clearly visible for all to see. There just needs to be a proper platform in place to make people fluent.

My suggestion is to target college graduates/young adults. Should incentives be provided to take up a part time Irish course in college (evening courses obviously), then the idea would be for them to, after becoming fluent, use it in the home when raising their own kids.

Ask anyone would they like to be fluent in any language, and they'll say yes. The problem is people don't want to actually put the work in. Many people profess a desire to learn the language, but don't sign up for the many courses.

The only small action that may have a lasting effect is that people prefer to put their children in Irish schools, and the number of Irish schools has doubled since the 1970s. However, Irish is still not an urban living language, and that needs to change.

For all the people who say English is such an advantage for us, maybe, but there's plenty of countries who don't speak English natively that manage to survive just fine.

Wilberto · 09-04-2012 10:15PM

p wrote: »

Ask anyone would they like to be fluent in any language, and they'll say yes. The problem is people don't want to actually put the work in. Many people profess a desire to learn the language, but don't sign up for the many courses.

You're probably right on the lack of effort, or the lack of the willingness to work at it.

And I know where your coming from alright with the "Ask anyone would they like to be fluent in any language, and they'll say yes" point, but I genuinely believe it's different with Irish. Maybe one reason is just because of all the polish immigrants (I have no probs with them btw) speaking polish that makes people want to speak Irish.

But yeah, I never really factored in that laziness, lack of a decent work ethic, part at all!!

But still, I believe that this is probably the only way to achieve a situation where Irish even remotely challenges English as a primary language. The reason English is our primary language is because kids are learning it from when they are able to talk (even before it technically). So young adults (or prospective parents) need an incentive learn irish and then apply it in the home to their future kids.

I still believe that there is a significant proportion willing to put in the time and effort, should they be given an incentive to do so, to become more fluent - maybe not as high as 9/10, but 6? (due to the effort etc.)

I know it sounds sad that they need to be given an incentive but sure what can we do about that??!!:rolleyes:

P.S. As I said in my last post though, maybe I am too idealistic or whatever?? :P:P

deise go deo · 09-04-2012 10:26PM

lividduck wrote: »

2011 Census:
Most spoken language? English
Next most spoken language? Polish
Next most spoken language? Irish (approx 79,000 speak it outside of school).

You made a mistake in your ranking system there, the figure in the census for Polish is the number of people of Polish origin living in the country, not the number of People who speak Polish everyday.

Now it is fair enough to claim that everyone of Polish Origin can speak Polish fluently, but the number of people who can speak Irish fluently is much higher than the number who speak Irish everyday.

Ficheall · 09-04-2012 11:31PM

I went to primary school through English and didn't particularly like Irish. Then I went to an all-Irish secondary school for three years and while I still didn't enjoy the subject, my Irish did improve drastically.
I did a diploma in Irish in college too, and didn't enjoy that at all either (apart from ogling one ridiculously pretty lecturer...).
But I try to speak Irish whenever the opportunity presents itself, because I enjoy the language itself.

The subject was poorly taught in any school I went to, and I didn't enjoy the classes, but it was school and there were other subjects I didn't like either - it would have been foolish to expect to enjoy all of one's subjects.

D'fhreastal mé ar bhunscoil trí Bhéarla agus níor thaithin Gaeilge liom. Ansin, d'fhreastal mé ar mheánscoil trí Gaeilge ar feadh trí bliana, agus nár thaithin an t-ábhar fhéin liom ansin ach oiread, tháinig feabhas mór ar mo chuid Gaeilge. Rinne mé dioplóma sa Ghaeilge sa choláiste freisin, agus níor bhain mé taithneamh ar bith as sin ach oiread (seachas breathnú ar léachtóir fíor álainn a bhíodh againn...)
Ach anois déanaim iarracht Gaeilge a labhairt aon uair 's féidir liom, mar go dtaithníonn an teanga féin liom.

Droch mhúineadh den teanga a raibh in aon scoil a d'fhreastal mé air, agus níor bhain mé taithneamh as na rangannaí, ach is scoil a bhí ann agus bhí abhair eile agam nár thaithnigh uaim ach oiread - ní bítear ag súil go dtaithníonn gach ábhair leat a dhéanann tú staidear air.

PS - can someone please fix the ****ing spelling in the thread title.

PS - ar mhiste le éinne an mí-litriú sa theideal a ceartú.

grindle · 10-04-2012 12:04AM

Ficheall wrote: »

I went to primary school through English and didn't particularly like Irish. Then I went to an all-Irish secondary school for three years and while I still didn't enjoy the subject, my Irish did improve drastically.
I did a diploma in Irish in college too, and didn't enjoy that at all either (apart from ogling one ridiculously pretty lecturer...).
But I try to speak Irish whenever the opportunity presents itself, because I enjoy the language itself.

The subject was poorly taught in any school I went to, and I didn't enjoy the classes, but it was school and there were other subjects I didn't like either - it would have been foolish to expect to enjoy all of one's subjects.

Poszedłem do szkoły podstawowej w języku angielskim i nie szczególnie podoba irlandzkim. Potem poszedłem do all-irlandzkiej szkole średniej przez trzy lata a ja nadal nie cieszą się temat, mój irlandzki nie poprawiła się diametralnie.
Zrobiłem dyplom w języku irlandzkim w szkole też, a nie cieszyć się, że w ogóle albo (oprócz ogling jeden śmiesznie ładny wykładowcy ...).
Ale staram się mówi po irlandzku, gdy okazja się, bo cieszyć się języka polskiego.

Temat został źle uczy się w każdej szkole poszedłem do, a nie cieszyć się na zajęcia, ale to było w szkole i nie było innych tematów nie lubię albo - byłoby głupotą oczekiwać, aby cieszyć wszystkich czyichś tematów.

It's not about expecting to enjoy subjects, it's about not expecting others to be forced to do, and waste vast amounts of money on, a subject that's almost completely impractical.

(Apologies to any Polish readers for GoogleTran's possibly terrible translation.)

Tu nie chodzi o spodziewając się cieszyć przedmiotów, nie chodzi o oczekując inni być zmuszony do zrobienia, a tracić ogromne ilości pieniędzy na, przedmiot, który jest niemal całkowicie niepraktyczne.

(Przepraszam wszystkich polskich czytelników do możliwie strasznym tłumaczeniu GoogleTran).

manutdfan0345 · 10-04-2012 12:13AM

You mightn't ever use it but that's not the point its your national language. You should be proud to learn it.

grindle · 10-04-2012 12:21AM

manutdfan0345 wrote: »

You mightn't ever use it but that's not the point its your national language*. You should be proud to learn it.

*Accident of birth. Shouldn't feel proud. Pride is for achievements.

(forgot to keep this going for that Irish guy)

*Wypadek urodzenia. Nie powinien czuć się dumny. Duma jest na dorobku.

(zapomniałem zachować ten zamiar do tego irlandzkiego faceta)

FueledByAisling · 10-04-2012 12:26AM

I went to a German school therefore started Irish at a later stage. The level Irish is taught in most schools is very bad. I personally dislike learning it due to the lack of good teachers although if I did have a decent amount I would speak it as much as possible because it is a lovely language and we should keep it up! But another European language is also essential I find

riclad · 10-04-2012 12:29AM

Perhaps we need a new thread, how to make our secondary school system better,in regard to preparing our students ,for the modern world.
IT seems to be a relic of the 19th century ,ie one third of time spent on irish ,religion, its ridiculous.IT
doesnt prepare kids to be creative, or problem solving , its more like heres a load of books, memorise this information ,ie mostly rote learning.

Ficheall · 10-04-2012 12:29AM

grindle wrote: »

It's not about expecting to enjoy subjects, it's about not expecting others to be forced to do, and waste vast amounts of money on, a subject that's almost completely impractical.

Aside from Maths and English I can't think of any subjects that we did in primary school that were of any "practical" use... which subjects would you propose be taught in primary schools?

Seachas Mata 'gus Béarla, ní féidir liom smaoineamh ar ábhair a rinne muid staidear orthu a raibh "úsáideach"... cén ábhair a mholfá go múinfear i mbunscoileanna?

Wibbs · 10-04-2012 12:37AM

Wilberto wrote: »

All I want to say is, out of all the people I know, I would say, as high as 8 or 9 out of 10 would love to be fluent in Irish.

Maybe it's a generational or geographical thing but out of all the people I've known the gra to speak as Gaelige would be very much a minority. Then again me and most of my peers would be "Jackeens so maybe that's it? The few ones that did/do have the gra would be second generation western rural background people. Plus if 9 outa 10 cats prefer Irish then it seems weird to me that it's used so very little. Sounds like more aspirational flim flam on the back of some cultural notion than an actual gra on the ground. I mean it's not been exactly difficult throughout the history of this state to find courses, affirmative legislation, like minded people, never mind the decade plus of "learning" it at school. Yet here we are. Proof of the pudding and all that.

manutdfan0345 wrote: »

You mightn't ever use it but that's not the point its your national language. You should be proud to learn it.

The irony of your username may have escaped you, never mind the irony of your argument. In any event are you fluent? If not, why not? After all it's "your" language and you appear to have a love for it(even if you never use it). Around this subject talk is cheap and that cheap talk is invariably as Bearla and invariably oddly surreal. "So long as you know it yet never use it" if made into a visual would have Dali chomping at the bit. Very "Irish" indeed. TBH I love that aspect of "it is and it isn't" about us, but still you do wonder at times...

Ficheall wrote:

Aside from Maths and English I can't think of any subjects that we did in primary school that were of any "practical" use

And why is english of practical use? Because it's our actual everyday language. Irish would occupy the "impractical" ground on that score for the majority of Irish people.

grindle · 10-04-2012 12:51AM

Ficheall wrote: »

Aside from Maths and English I can't think of any subjects that we did in primary school that were of any "practical" use... which subjects would you propose be taught in primary schools?

Seachas Mata 'gus Béarla, ní féidir liom smaoineamh ar ábhair a rinne muid staidear orthu a raibh "úsáideach"... cén ábhair a mholfá go múinfear i mbunscoileanna?

Perhaps using 'practical' on it's own is a mistake. Useful. Knowledge-building and useful as information to use in your future as a (hopefully) productive member of society.
Without Irish, we're left with:

English
Mathematics
History
Geography
Science
Music
Visual Arts
Drama
Physical Education
Social, Personal and Health Education

SPHE should be more focussed on/replaced with excercises in lateral/logical thinking.
Trying to understand Aristotle and Plato's thought processes would have a much larger benefit than gliding through the world's religions and going "Well, all of us believe one thing, these lads believe the rest, and I'm just going to say that's fine, even if that instills a malignant ignorance of how cults and mistruths can negatively affect a species such as ours."
There should definitely be more IT development, even in a small way.

Asking for an answer that you may deem negative doesn't quash the negativity of the present situation, by the way.

***

Być może za pomocą "praktyczny" na swój własny jest błędem. Użyteczne. Znajomość budowy i użyteczne jako informacja użyć w przyszłości jako (mam nadzieję) członek produkcyjnym społeczeństwa.
Bez irlandzkim, jesteśmy w lewo z:

angielski
matematyka
historia
geografia
nauka
muzyka
Sztuki wizualne
dramat
Wychowanie Fizyczne
Społeczna, osobista i Edukacja Zdrowotna

Wiedza o społeczeństwie powinien być bardziej skoncentrowany na / zastąpić ćwiczeń w myśleniu bocznym / logiczne. Próbując zrozumieć Arystotelesa i Platona procesy myślowe miałby większe korzyści niż szybownictwo przez światowych religii i będzie "Cóż, każdy z nas wierzyć w jedno, to chłopcy uważają resztę, a ja tylko chciałem powiedzieć, że jest w porządku, nawet jeśli zaszczepia złośliwego ignorancję jak kulty i mistruths może negatywnie wpłynąć na gatunki, takie jak nasz. "
Nie powinno być zdecydowanie bardziej rozwoju IT, nawet w małym stopniu.

Z prośbą o odpowiedź, które można uznać za negatywne nie uchyla naganne obecnej sytuacji na drodze.

Jester252 · 10-04-2012 01:20AM

I'll just say this again so some people get the point irish is the only subject you must do as part of your leaving cert. You are not required to do maths or english.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 10-04-2012 02:03AM

Jester252 wrote: »

I'll just say this again so some people get the point irish is the only subject you must do as part of your leaving cert. You are not required to do maths or english.

Someone made the point in a previous thread that technically no subject is mandatory. You can just not do a subject, focus on the others and then show up for the exams you do want to do.

Not 100% sure on that, but I don't know what problems you could face.

Jester252 · 10-04-2012 02:08AM

In context of the LC program You have to pick Irish as one of the exam subject. You can do what he said but you will fail that subject.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 10-04-2012 02:10AM

Jester252 wrote: »

In context of the LC program You have to pick Irish as one of the exam subject. You can do what he said but you will fail that subject.

Then just show up for the Irish exam, hand in a blank paper and leave. Obviously, not getting a grade is expected.

Jester252 · 10-04-2012 02:14AM

Not everyone likes a NG in their LC

riclad · 10-04-2012 02:15AM

I,D like for the leaving pick 4 subjects after year 3 ,english,maths ,and 2 others.
MAKE a new subject computer studys,it would cover basic programming,logic,html ,web design,etc Start in 1st year, make it optional.
You can study irish or any other language as one of the 4 subjects.
if you are going to be a doctor,chemist the irish points wont count ,re university entrance.IE if you wanna be a doctor you,d have to study maths,biology and 2 other subjects.
it makes no sense to me studying 8 subjects for the leaving cert.
MANY people fail irish, unless they are going for a course
at uni or a civil service job, that needs high points ,it makes no difference to their career.
There should be more encouragement for girls to specialize in
science or technical subjects.

deise go deo · 10-04-2012 02:38AM

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Then just show up for the Irish exam, hand in a blank paper and leave. Obviously, not getting a grade is expected.

You don't have to show up to the exam.

GaryIrv93 · 10-04-2012 02:45AM

It's a lot like countries who conscript young men into the army - most of the forcefully conscipted soldiers are usually very miserable in the army and so usually aren't bothered when they're sent off to war - it was all against their will, they didn't ask to be there. Take the Gulf War for example, Iraqi soldiers (mostly conscipts) were surrendering themselves left, right and centre just for the sake of getting out and getting home.

Irish is the same - kids and kids only are forced to learn it against their will and most resent this, turning them against the language just like the conscipted soldiers did against the army. They can't wait to get out of school and one big reason is because they won't ever have to learn or speak Irish again. Nobody can blame them for this: they didn't ask to have it forced down their throats. If somethings forced on you, no matter what it is - then you learn to resent it. It's a simple part of human nature.

ToddyDoody · 10-04-2012 04:56AM

Think of this.. students decide to do german instead of gaeilge.. If there's gonna be a **** up my hole it might aswell be an irish one?

kowloon · 10-04-2012 06:12AM

A long circular argument.

Personally I favour choice. I say keep it at Junior Cert level if you want to make the argument for cultural importance (History still being far more important imo), but once a student is doing the protracted college entrance exam that the Leaving has long become there has to be choice.

People have to be allowed to play to their strengths and if Irish isn't their strength it only becomes a barrier to them. Proponents of keeping Irish compulsory need to step back and stop being so greedy about their interests because they're messing with people's opportunities.

The language has little cultural value to a person who can't study their chosen subject at third level because of it. Once that hatred is engrained it's a pretty tall order to get someone to embrace the language.

Let it stand on its own. People use census figures to argue that the language is healthy, if that's the case there won't be any problems and there's no case for forcing it on others.

10-04-2012 06:18AM

A great thing to be teaching, "don't bother with things you don't like".

A student will do very bad at college if they are not able to do Irish and their other chosen subjects. The great thing about the LC is that it teaches a broad range of subjects as opposed to the UK system which is very narrow (and also does not lead to better results in foreign languages I might add)

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 10-04-2012 06:49AM

deise go deo wrote: »

You don't have to show up to the exam.

Yeah, that's what I thought. They're not going to "void" your entire leaing because you miss one exam, even if it is Irish.

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

A great thing to be teaching, "don't bother with things you don't like".

A student will do very bad at college if they are not able to do Irish and their other chosen subjects. The great thing about the LC is that it teaches a broad range of subjects as opposed to the UK system which is very narrow (and also does not lead to better results in foreign languages I might add)

You only believe the first part because the subject in question is Irish. And, as I sid when this argment came up last, it's about prioritizing and choosing responsibly, not simply liking.

The second part of your argument is wrong. How, possibly, can you say a student will do worse in college without Irish?

The thrid part of your arguemunt is simply anti-Britishism.

Wibbs · 10-04-2012 08:21AM

kowloon wrote: »

A long circular argument.

Personally I favour choice. I say keep it at Junior Cert level if you want to make the argument for cultural importance (History still being far more important imo), but once a student is doing the protracted college entrance exam that the Leaving has long become there has to be choice.

People have to be allowed to play to their strengths and if Irish isn't their strength it only becomes a barrier to them. Proponents of keeping Irish compulsory need to step back and stop being so greedy about their interests because they're messing with people's opportunities.

The language has little cultural value to a person who can't study their chosen subject at third level because of it. Once that hatred is engrained it's a pretty tall order to get someone to embrace the language.

Let it stand on its own. People use census figures to argue that the language is healthy, if that's the case there won't be any problems and there's no case for forcing it on others.

QFT. Sums it up for me anyway. Particularly the part in bold.

conor.hogan.2 wrote:

A student will do very bad at college if they are not able to do Irish and their other chosen subjects.

Huh? How will a student "do very bad" in college without Irish? Unless they're doing a degree in the subject of course.

kowloon · 10-04-2012 10:02AM

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

A great thing to be teaching, "don't bother with things you don't like".

A student will do very bad at college if they are not able to do Irish and their other chosen subjects. The great thing about the LC is that it teaches a broad range of subjects as opposed to the UK system which is very narrow (and also does not lead to better results in foreign languages I might add)

I'm pretty sure no 16-18 year old is going to think 'don't bother with things you don't like' is the lesson to take from that, they're not toddlers. What about all the other subjects they chose not to do?
A student will not do 'very bad' at college without Irish unless they're doing, you've guessed it, Irish.

There can be a very broad range of subjects to choose from without anyone dictating which subjects to choose. Narrow minded policy won't make for broad education.

I don't understand how it hurts to allow people to choose. Allowing someone the choice is not detrimental to society or, as I would argue, the language.

deise go deo · 10-04-2012 10:52AM

kowloon wrote: »

I don't understand how it hurts to allow people to choose. Allowing someone the choice is not detrimental to society or, as I would argue, the language.

You would argue that making Irish optional would not be detrimental to the language?
Go on then, lets see that argument.

lividduck · 10-04-2012 11:10AM

deise go deo wrote: »

You would argue that making Irish optional would not be detrimental to the language?
Go on then, lets see that argument.

Compulsory Irish has failed, hardly anyone actually speaks it fluently in terms of the overall population, proof if it were needed that optional subject choice could do no worse.
If the current system is broken, why not try another way?

Jester252 · 10-04-2012 11:11AM

deise go deo wrote: »

You would argue that making Irish optional would not be detrimental to the language?
Go on then, lets see that argument.

The numbers that take the subject will be down but people will still take it. I don't see why this a go to defence for irish lovers. You and everyone here who love Irish will take it. Your kids will take it. The classes will be more fun as only people who are intrested in the subject will be there instead of classrooms full of students most of whom are sitting there not getting involved. Some of my best subjects are ones will small classes full of students who love the subject. Everyone is different should we not try and have an education that allows everyone be the best they can be.

deise go deo · 10-04-2012 11:22AM

Jester252 wrote: »

The numbers that take the subject will be down but people will still take it. I don't see why this a go to defence for irish lovers. You and everyone here who love Irish will take it. Your kids will take it. The classes will be more fun as only people who are intrested in the subject will be there instead of classrooms full of students most of whom are sitting there not getting involved. Some of my best subjects are ones will small classes full of students who love the subject. Everyone is different should we not try and have an education that allows everyone be the best they can be.

Bull, I would never have taken Irish for LC if it had been optional, and I know plenty of Irish speakers who feel the same.
The LC is all about points, and no one is going to take a subject like Irish over somthing that is easy to get points in unless they have to, the LC is not about what people want to do and it has never been about students trying to be the best they can be, its about getting the most points and nothing more.

Should Irish be an optional subject not a cumpulsory one

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