Are you going to pay the household charge? [Part 1]

dxhound2005 · 13-03-2012 10:45pm

Am Chile wrote: »

You re figure is wrong.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/100-charge-to-hit-18m-households-162355.html

Whats the odds of 1.6 million signing up within the next two weeks?

What is your prediction?

gurramok · 13-03-2012 10:46pm

mconigol wrote: »

That the only thing you could challenge in my entire post? That's saying something.

If you don't think there has been austerity then it is you who has their head in the sand.

Most of your post was directed at the other poster.

So, what austerity have we had so far? A few quid of the social or a few quid gone from your pay packet is pittens.

Am Chile · 13-03-2012 10:47pm

constitutionus wrote: »

thats ALL house's including the social ones.

(least thats what the media says)

and theyre exempt so it drops down to circa 1.4 once you exclude those that paid up already.

TBH this is one of the great laughs of this whole affair.

these feckers cant even tell you definitvely how many households there are !

so its a guessing game.

thats one of the reason they started this whole database to begin with.

Yes they re excempt, but they still have to register to claim their excemption.

Am Chile · 13-03-2012 10:48pm

dxhound2005 wrote: »

What is your prediction?

Slightly over 20%.

constitutionus · 13-03-2012 10:49pm

Am Chile wrote: »

Yes they re excempt, but they still have to register to claim their excemption.

now that i wasnt aware of !

thanks for that.

and jaysus how stupid would anyone be to do that. shure you just know its only a matter of time before the "Exemption" disappears ala the bin charges that even pensioners are now paying.

so 1.6 million to sign up in two weeks.

mconigol · 13-03-2012 10:49pm

gurramok wrote: »

Most of your post was directed at the other poster.

So, what austerity have we had so far? A few quid of the social or a few quid gone from your pay packet is pittens.

See you're attempting to drag the conversation off the topic now. There has been austerity even if you only view it as mild.

Regardless the thread is about the property tax, not if there has been austerity and the level of austerity has nothing to do with the justness of this charge.

Bruthal · 13-03-2012 10:50pm

dxhound2005 wrote: »

So for €105 you can sleep easy for the next 9 months.

You must have a cheap household if your expenses between now and Jan are €105

gurramok · 13-03-2012 10:51pm

mconigol wrote: »

See you're attempting to drag the conversation off the topic now. There has been austerity even if you only view it as mild.

Regardless the thread is about the property tax, not if there has been austerity and the level of austerity has nothing to do with the justness of this charge.

Wha? The household charge is an extremely mild form of austerity, a paltry 100 quid and a horde of selfish people would rather the country go Greek style for their own i'm alright jack attitude.

dxhound2005 · 13-03-2012 10:53pm

constitutionus wrote: »

thats ALL house's including the social ones.

(least thats what the media says)

and theyre exempt so it drops down to circa 1.4 once you exclude those that paid up already.

TBH this is one of the great laughs of this whole affair.

these feckers cant even tell you definitvely how many households there are !

so its a guessing game.

thats one of the reason they started this whole database to begin with.

Sinn Fein in the North are operating a system of domestic rates with each householder being invoiced quarterly for an amount determined by various criteria relating to their property. We had the same system here in the past but it was abandoned by Fianna Fail in 1977. It is not ideal for the Government to be forced to introduce the Household Charge in the current circumstances but they have to start somewhere. There was no need for "the feckers" to maintain a database after domestic rates were abolished so it has to be re-established now. If they need ideas there are similar taxes in operation in lots of other countries.

gerryo777 · 13-03-2012 10:57pm

mconigol wrote: »

That the only thing you could challenge in my entire post? That's saying something.

If you don't think there has been austerity then it is you who has their head in the sand.

There's only austerity for certain groups of people. Maybe gurramok is insulated from it....

namloc1980 · 13-03-2012 10:57pm

gurramok wrote: »

Wha? The household charge is an extremely mild form of austerity, a paltry 100 quid and a horde of selfish people would rather the country go Greek style for their own i'm alright jack attitude.

So the €100 or €160m in total is going to make or break the country? We send multiples of that overseas every year in "foreign aid". Get a grip man!

Frank Black · 13-03-2012 10:59pm

robbie7730 wrote: »

Sounds like your suggesting paying the stamp duty was a mistake.

Yeah.

Why, do you think it wasn't?

robbie7730 wrote: »

A good arguement for not paying this property tax so, in case the current goverment squander this too.

They're hardly in a position to increase current spending now are they?
Don't think your argument really stacks up.

mconigol · 13-03-2012 10:59pm

gurramok wrote: »

Wha? The household charge is an extremely mild form of austerity, a paltry 100 quid and a horde of selfish people would rather the country go Greek style for their own i'm alright jack attitude.

It has very little to do with the amount. As many people have stated, they have paid huge amounts of stamp duty. Obviously paying their dues is not the issue, even if you wish to make it seem like that.

The people are against this charge because it is seen as inequitable and the manner of its introduction. It's a point of principle.

The country is not going to to "Greek style" as you put it. As you say yourself it's only a paltry e100. That's hardly going to take down the country is it now?? Why the big fuss?

constitutionus · 13-03-2012 10:59pm

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Sinn Fein in the North are operating a system of domestic rates with each householder being invoiced quarterly for an amount determined by various criteria relating to their property. We had the same system here in the past but it was abandoned by Fianna Fail in 1977. It is not ideal for the Government to be forced to introduce the Household Charge in the current circumstances but they have to start somewhere. There was no need for "the feckers" to maintain a database after domestic rates were abolished so it has to be re-established now. If they need ideas there are similar taxes in operation in lots of other countries.

and here i thought sovereign nations governed their own tax affairs !

i dont need a history lesson.

i know all that, just as i know indirect taxation across the board was increased to cover the loss of rates but no one wants to talk about that one.

this tax only exist because the gov did a deal with the troika.

well its going down and theyre going to have to go back and say it wont work as the people wont wear it.

personally i have no problem with tearing up the whole deal and balancing the books over night.

but the big three wont do that as its their voters thatll get hit the most.

rasper · 13-03-2012 11:02pm

gurramok wrote: »

mconigol wrote: »

See you're attempting to drag the conversation off the topic now. There has been austerity even if you only view it as mild.

Regardless the thread is about the property tax, not if there has been austerity and the level of austerity has nothing to do with the justness of this charge.

Wha? The household charge is an extremely mild form of austerity, a paltry 100 quid and a horde of selfish people would rather the country go Greek style for their own i'm alright jack attitude.

It is not selfish. , I actually don't mind paying it and don't demean yourself by saying €100 , it's a bank tax and they is no reform on offer , just more tax ,
Only a nation of sheep would roll over and take this on top of what we are going through
This also wont help our economy at all in fact will hurt it further
Selfish I think not

tayto lover · 13-03-2012 11:03pm

gerryo777 wrote: »

There's only austerity for certain groups of people. Maybe gurramok is insulated from it....

Yes I think we have a few budding politicians on this thread with a "blue" hue.
They are on a mission to try and convince us to pay up.
Wasting their time with me anyway.
If people took the advice of politicians in Ireland then they can expect a poor life. Europe telling us that we have no case for a write down or a re-negotiation now and making fish of one and flesh of another country. Our representatives just want to be the teacher's pets it seems.

Bruthal · 13-03-2012 11:04pm

black francis wrote: »

Yeah.

Why, do you think it wasn't?

Did you think it was at the time? Or is this in hindsight?

Either way, it was a tax people paid towards the state. What was done with it after this does not change the fact it was tax paid.

They're hardly in a position to increase current spending now are they?
Don't think your argument really stacks up.

They dont have to increase spending to be wasteful. You obviously think they do.

Bruthal · 13-03-2012 11:09pm

gerryo777 wrote: »

There's only austerity for certain groups of people. Maybe gurramok is insulated from it....

Thats exactly what i think. the ones most advocating it are least affected by it, but would be most affected by the states financial problems directly.

gurramok claims non payers are selfish, but in reality its likely he/she couldnt care less about others and their difficulties, just his/her own situation, likely more directly linked to the states prosperity than the average person.

mconigol · 13-03-2012 11:11pm

rasper wrote: »

It is not selfish. , I actually don't mind paying it and don't demean yourself by saying €100 , it's a bank tax and they is no reform on offer , just more tax ,
Only a nation of sheep would roll over and take this on top of what we are going through
This also wont help our economy at all in fact will hurt it further
Selfish I think not

Gurramok is wrong. What he should have said is that initially it is only a paltry e100.

It's short sightedness like this which got things into the mess they currently are.

If one of the main proponents of this charge can't see further than one year down the line then their argument doesn't hold much weight.

gurramok · 13-03-2012 11:11pm

namloc1980 wrote: »

So the €100 or €160m in total is going to make or break the country? We send multiples of that overseas every year in "foreign aid". Get a grip man!

mconigol wrote: »

It has very little to do with the amount. As many people have stated, they have paid huge amounts of stamp duty. Obviously paying their dues is not the issue, even if you wish to make it seem like that.

The people are against this charge because it is seen as inequitable and the manner of its introduction. It's a point of principle.

The country is not going to to "Greek style" as you put it. As you say yourself it's only a paltry e100. That's hardly going to take down the country is it now?? Why the big fuss?

Its part of the IMF bailout(note bailout) the country needs. If its not enacted, they will either have to find the tax elsewhere or the IMF will hesitate about giving us money. Hence Greek style. Oh and thats before the ratings agencies
make us a worse place for investors. That means less jobs been created as business will be too expensive to conduct here.

Frank Black · 13-03-2012 11:12pm

robbie7730 wrote: »

Did you think it was at the time? Or is this in hindsight?

Did I think paying hundreds of thousand of quid for shoe-box sized apartments in the middle of nowhere and then writing a cheque for 10's of thousands to the Govt for the privilege doing so was a bit crazy?

Yes, it did seem strange at the time.

robbie7730 wrote: »

Either way, it was a tax people paid towards the state. What was done with it after this does not change the fact it was tax paid.

So what? I'm not the one trying to argue it should be a mitigating factor in the payment of a household charge.

mconigol · 13-03-2012 11:16pm

gurramok wrote: »

Its part of the IMF bailout(note bailout) the country needs. If its not enacted, they will either have to find the tax elsewhere or the IMF will hesitate about giving us money. Hence Greek style. Oh and thats before the ratings agencies
make us a worse place for investors. That means less jobs been created as business will be too expensive to conduct here.

All agreements can be renegotiated. Anyone who says otherwise is wrong.

Like you've said €160 million is paltry. It won't affect our ratings to any significant extent. The markets have long since factored in our ability to repay.

Anyway, again you try to drag this off topic. This thread is about the household charge, not the bailout. Simply stating that it's part of the bailout agreement isn't a valid argument as to the merits of this charge.

gerryo777 · 13-03-2012 11:19pm

gurramok wrote: »

Its part of the IMF bailout(note bailout) the country needs. If its not enacted, they will either have to find the tax elsewhere or the IMF will hesitate about giving us money. Hence Greek style. Oh and thats before the ratings agencies
make us a worse place for investors. That means less jobs been created as business will be too expensive to conduct here.

What we are getting is not a 'bailout'!

It's a series of loans given to Ireland that we will have to pay back with massive interest on top.

gurramok · 13-03-2012 11:19pm

mconigol wrote: »

All agreements can be renegotiated. Anyone who says otherwise is wrong.

Like you've said €160 million is paltry. It won't affect our ratings to any significant extent. The markets have long since factored in our ability to repay.

Anyway, again you try to drag this off topic. This thread is about the household charge, not the bailout. Simply stating that it's part of the bailout agreement isn't a valid argument as to the merits of this charge.

Where is the household charge not a part of the IMF bailout?

You sir are wrong.
http://www.environ.ie/en/DevelopmentHousing/Housing/HouseholdCharge/

And where exactly is Irelands strengths to give 2 fingers to the IMF?!

constitutionus · 13-03-2012 11:21pm

gurramok wrote: »

Its part of the IMF bailout(note bailout) the country needs. If its not enacted, they will either have to find the tax elsewhere or the IMF will hesitate about giving us money. Hence Greek style. Oh and thats before the ratings agencies
make us a worse place for investors. That means less jobs been created as business will be too expensive to conduct here.

whoa whoa whoa there.

lets get one thing straight. this is europes idea.

theyre the one strongarming us on the property tax as they despise independent nations doing their own thing.

its why there pushing the fiscal compact now, trying to bully those that wont sign up to it by threatening access to the ESM fund when they know full well its an empty threat, and are hell bent on hitting our corporat tax rate every chance they get.

the IMF dont give a fup where we get the money comes from as long as they get it back.

ANY preasure on this will be coming from europe.

and its NOT a bailout.

were paying significant amounts in interest on it.

gerryo777 · 13-03-2012 11:24pm

gurramok wrote: »

Where is the household charge not a part of the IMF bailout?

You sir are wrong.
http://www.environ.ie/en/DevelopmentHousing/Housing/HouseholdCharge/

And where exactly is Irelands strengths to give 2 fingers to the IMF?!

Who said anything about giving the 2 fingers to the IMF?

The IMF have told the ECB to give us a break regarding the promissory notes in anglo and to make things easier on us as they can see that all this austerity, all these extra taxes are doing the exact opposite of what's required!

mconigol · 13-03-2012 11:28pm

gurramok wrote: »

Where is the household charge not a part of the IMF bailout?

You sir are wrong.
http://www.environ.ie/en/DevelopmentHousing/Housing/HouseholdCharge/

And where exactly is Irelands strengths to give 2 fingers to the IMF?!

I didn't say it wasn't part of the bailout so I think you'll find that I'm correct.

Also, renegotiation is not giving two fingers. Surely you should be able to see that.

In fact, when the government sees that parts of the agreement are not working it illustrates strength that this should be acknowledged and that another solution should be established.

Anyway, again off topic. The thread is about the household charge not the bailout.

Tell me you have more arguments than:
1. Sure it's only a few quid
2. It's part of the bailout

Neither of those arguments are relevant to the discussion on the merits of the household charge itself.

If it helps, pretend there is no bailout and analyse the imposition of the charge as if it were 100% an Irish decision. Would you agree with the manner in which it is being introduced?

Ghandee · 13-03-2012 11:28pm

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Sinn Fein in the North are operating a system of domestic rates with each householder being invoiced quarterly for an amount determined by various criteria relating to their property. We had the same system here in the past but it was abandoned by Fianna Fail in 1977. It is not ideal for the Government to be forced to introduce the Household Charge in the current circumstances but they have to start somewhere. There was no need for "the feckers" to maintain a database after domestic rates were abolished so it has to be re-established now. If they need ideas there are similar taxes in operation in lots of other countries.

This isn't the first time you've made this claim on this particular thread, prob in a vain effort to put potential Sinn Fein voters of the notion of giving the party their vote come election time.

The stark reality is, that Sinn Fein are not operating any such system in the north of the island.

the last time I looked, Peter Robinson was still the first minister, (Peter Robinson of the DUP;))
Rates have existed in the north for decades now DX, even back in the day when a Sinn Fein councillor had their voice dubbed over on the news headlines. (long before they got into any power sharing executive so)
Sinn Fein have been operating a shared government with the DUP for less than a decade, so for you to instigate that they operate such a system is drivel.

Not to mention the fact (i'm from county Derry so I feel qualified to speak on this matter)
My folks get their bins emptied, no water meters, no ambulance/fire brigade charges, they don't pay to see a doctor, they've no tolled roads, motor tax its way below ours.
The list is endless tbh.

Your spouting complete and utter Bollox on this one, pardon me for saying so.

gurramok · 13-03-2012 11:30pm

constitutionus wrote: »

whoa whoa whoa there.

lets get one thing straight. this is europes idea.

theyre the one strongarming us on the property tax as they despise independent nations doing their own thing.

Tinfoil hat stuff. Plenty of independent nations already pay a property tax, funny how they seem to have small deficits.

constitutionus wrote: »

its why there pushing the fiscal compact now, trying to bully those that wont sign up to it by threatening access to the ESM fund when they know full well its an empty threat, and are hell bent on hitting our corporat tax rate every chance they get.

the IMF dont give a fup where we get the money comes from as long as they get it back.

ANY preasure on this will be coming from europe.

and its NOT a bailout.

were paying significant amounts in interest on it.

It was a bailout just like the Greek one recently. Do you think it was charity?:rolleyes:

Wrong again

The EU/IMF Programme of Financial Support for Ireland commits the Government to the introduction of a property tax for 2012.

mconigol · 13-03-2012 11:32pm

gerryo777 wrote: »

Who said anything about giving the 2 fingers to the IMF?

The IMF have told the ECB to give us a break regarding the promissory notes in anglo and to make things easier on us as they can see that all this austerity, all these extra taxes are doing the exact opposite of what's required!

As usual when someone realises their logic is flawed they make up what other posters have said.

In his case he hasn't even bothered to read or understand my posts correctly before firing off a response.

Are you going to pay the household charge? [Part 1]

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