Are you going to pay the household charge? [Part 1]

tayto lover

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Busy thread today so I haven't read the newer pages. I hear on the news that the latest Revenue Commissioners defaulters list is out. The big cases are in Part 2.

http://www.revenue.ie/en/press/2012/pr-130312-defaulters-list.html

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/courts/nightclub-business-of-john-reynolds-forced-to-repay-479211-to-revenue-commissioners-3048919.html

The reason it's relevant to the discussion here is that the Revenue Commissioners are one of the entities named in the legislation as being allowed to exchange data for the purposes of the administration of the Household Charge. I'm sure the people named in the list wouldn't thank me for the extra publicity on Boards. But they were the ones stupid or brazen enough to defy the tax laws to the extent that their names had to be published in the first place and in the process become liable for fortunes in interest and penalties.

I think the Revenue could be getting close to exhausting investigations into bogus offshore accounts and might be minded in future to turn their interest to other forms of lawbreaking. It might be a good idea for people announcing publicly that they are going to break the Household Charge / Property Tax laws to have their other tax affairs in order. When the Revenue wolves come calling I would rather be one of the sheep safely corraled with those who have paid and not saying I'm not paying, come and get me.

They can do what they like as I'm not paying.
You can't beat a bit of scaremongering though. It's great craic.

tayto lover

TreesAreCrowd wrote: »

I hope they don't, the fines attached to it far exceed the initial charge and will be a welcome source of income for the country

Lovely. I will look forward to still not paying that either.

TreesAreCrowd

tayto lover wrote: »

Lovely. I will look forward to still not paying that either.

Then I hope you're dealt with accordingly

plasmaguy

tayto lover wrote: »

They can do what they like as I'm not paying.
You can't beat a bit of scaremongering though. It's great craic.

Do you agree we need to raise more tax to close the current account deficit?

And please don't mention anglo irish bank and golden circle. That's another issue.

Do you agree we need to raise current account revenue and reduce current account spending.

Yes or no will do.

Slick50

TreesAreCrowd wrote: »

Then I hope you're dealt with accordingly

Sell his house maybe?

dxhound2005

tayto lover wrote: »

They can do what they like as I'm not paying.
You can't beat a bit of scaremongering though. It's great craic.

I think I am doing a service. It's easy to say Don't Register Don't Pay (translation Break the Law) but this will put people who own private property into serious legal difficulties. Just as long as everyone knows.

Ghandee

Where To wrote: »

Just paid mine, wasn't painful at all.

Painful like a tooth extraction or what?:cool:

dvpower

Slick50 wrote: »

It may not be in the picture at the moment..

What do you mean foreclosure may not be in the picture at the moment? It simply isn't.

Stop the scaremongering.

plasmaguy

Slick50 wrote: »

It may not be in the picture at the moment, but who's to say what draconian measures they will introduce in the future. As this tax, or whatever guise it takes in the future, becomes greater the government would become all the more eager to collect it. You cannot trust them to not introduce whatever legislation they deem necessary, politicians lie.

It wouldn't be foreclosure either, that is something that may happen if you fail to pay your mortgage. This could happen even if you have no mortgage.

Does anyone know what penalties are in place on the continent, for non payment of property tax(es).

The less tax we pay now, the more draconian they will have to get, until they really will be taxing everything and anything.

The Greeks are the classic case of what happens when you postpone reforms and postpone the collecting of taxes and just keep on borrowing.

Borrowing is not the answer because it always comes back on you in a major way, as the Greeks are now finding out.

golfwallah

gerryo777 wrote: »

What a complete load of ****e.
The pro campaign must be in big trouble when they're coming out with this kind of drivel!!

"Pro campaign" - what "pro campaign" are you talking about?

The only organised campaign out there is the "anti-campaign".

These are the organised folk I saw protesting in Kildare Street, outside Leinster House, on 29th Feb and then adjourning to Buswell's Hotel for middle class refreshments afterwards.

Most posters advocating payment of household charges are far from being in favour of this tax.

They are, however, pro-Ireland and pro-democracy and law abiding as regards their household charges.

It's about time the protestors copped on - they have made their point and we would all be better served if they focused their energy on chasing their public representatives to bring the perpetrators of the reckless borrowing to book.

By dissipating their energy, they are just letting the politicians off the hook, IMO.

Am Chile

plasmaguy wrote: »

There was another country, I can't remember the name of it now offhand.

They wouldn't pay their taxes in full. They said it was stupid to pay taxes. And they blamed a golden circle, and also the fact that no-one else paid their taxes, as the reason no-one should pay taxes. In the end they ran out of money and had to go begging to the IMF for a dig out.

Oh what was their name again...oh yeh now, I remember...it was Greece...wonder how that rebellion against paying taxes turned out for them...

If you think the austerity the IMF is rightly imposing on us now to force us to close the gap between our current account spending and revenue is bad, if we stop paying taxes, it will be ten times worse, on the scale of that of the Greeks.

I get the feeling that a lot of the "Let's pay all the taxes they can come up with brigade" people on this site think that those of us who won't pay are doing so because we don't like taxes.For me, it's not because it's a tax and I hate taxes, I won't pay because the money will not be used to improve anything in Ireland. The money will be given to bondholders and banks that gambled and lost. I refuse to pay for a debt which the leader of this country has already told me I'm not responsible for.
I fail to see why some people are so eager to pay for someone else's debts.

Slick50

dvpower wrote: »

What do you mean foreclosure may not be in the picture at the moment? It simply isn't.

Stop the scaremongering.

Ok, so it is not in the picture at the moment. That is not to say it won't be introduced at a later stage, when the tax is more valuable to the government.

It is not scaremongering, it is something people should keep in mind. If a significant number of people hold out, and they need money, who is to say.

golfwallah

plasmaguy wrote: »

There was another country, I can't remember the name of it now offhand.

They wouldn't pay their taxes in full. They said it was stupid to pay taxes. And they blamed a golden circle, and also the fact that no-one else paid their taxes, as the reason no-one should pay taxes. In the end they ran out of money and had to go begging to the IMF for a dig out.

Oh what was their name again...oh yeh now, I remember...it was Greece...wonder how that rebellion against paying taxes turned out for them...

If you think the austerity the IMF is rightly imposing on us now to force us to close the gap between our current account spending and revenue is bad, if we stop paying taxes, it will be ten times worse, on the scale of that of the Greeks.

My cousin lives in Greece and, from what I hear, they are having a really hard time over there with all the austerity measures. Reduced pensions, social welfare and State services.

Some peoples' protest posts are very ill-informed and based on a purely emotional reaction to the economic screw-up we are all contributing to fix right now.

It ain't easy ..... but it's child's play compared to what ordinary people in Greece are having to face.

Slick50

plasmaguy wrote: »

The less tax we pay now, the more draconian they will have to get, until they really will be taxing everything and anything.

The Greeks are the classic case of what happens when you postpone reforms and postpone the collecting of taxes and just keep on borrowing.

Borrowing is not the answer because it always comes back on you in a major way, as the Greeks are now finding out.

I have not said at any stage that we don't need to raise taxes, or don't pay. I absolutely object to any tax being levied on my home. The government should look at other ways of raising this cash.

It is morally wrong, unjust and unfair to tax a persons home!

plasmaguy

Am Chile wrote: »

I get the feeling that a lot of the "Let's pay all the taxes they can come up with brigade" people on this site think that those of us who won't pay are doing so because we don't like taxes.For me, it's not because it's a tax and I hate taxes, I won't pay because the money will not be used to improve anything in Ireland. The money will be given to bondholders and banks that gambled and lost. I refuse to pay for a debt which the leader of this country has already told me I'm not responsible for.
I fail to see why some people are so eager to pay for someone else's debts.

We don't have a choice.

Do you think politicians get a thrill out of imposing more taxes on people? Of course they don't because they know how popular they are.

But we don't have a choice, anyone with an understanding of economics would recognise that.

We spend about 50 billion annually on current account spending.

We are projected to take in perhaps 35 or 36 billion.

That leaves 14-15 billion of a hole in the current account. We could borrow it, at approximately 5% interest, but of course we'd have to pay it back, and adding another 15 billion to the national debt is not a good idea and only make our situation worse in the long term.

Raising taxes is difficult but the alternative is unthinkable.

We simply cannot have deficits of 15 billion a year for the foreseeable future.

In Greece today by the way, it's young people who are suffering and paying for the greed and stupidy of their parents generation who refused to pay tax and continued to just borrow. The parents generation just pushed the problem down the road, and onto their children who must now pay the price. The exact same will happen in Ireland, it's not even an if it will happen situation.

The national debt is not like a computer game, you cannot press restart, or just go back to the beginning and start again. I sometimes think people think that way about a lot of things, just press restart and see if that fixes it.

Am Chile

dvpower wrote: »

What do you mean foreclosure may not be in the picture at the moment? It simply isn't.

Stop the scaremongering.

The legistration has yet to be drawn up for the full property tax, we have yet to see what will be written in it that will designed to Intimidate people and what other lengths and methods they might decide to go to.

golfwallah

Am Chile wrote: »

I get the feeling that a lot of the "Let's pay all the taxes they can come up with brigade" people on this site think that those of us who won't pay are doing so because we don't like taxes.For me, it's not because it's a tax and I hate taxes, I won't pay because the money will not be used to improve anything in Ireland. The money will be given to bondholders and banks that gambled and lost. I refuse to pay for a debt which the leader of this country has already told me I'm not responsible for.
I fail to see why some people are so eager to pay for someone else's debts.

The bulk of debt in this country relates to day to day state and local authority spending.

For example, last time I looked at the audited accounts of Fingal County Council, they had borrowings in the region of €460 Million as at end December 2010.

Without central Government guarantees that these loans will be re-paid, this council and many more beside would be financially insolvent and have to start laying off staff and selling its assets.

You either accept democracy or you don't and I, for one, would prefer the rule of law to the kind of mass civil disobedience you seem to be advocating by refusing to pay taxes levied through legitimate democratic process.

If we don't levy the cost of re-paying loans on the taxpayer or drastically reduce public spending by about 40% and don't suddenly discover gold or oil, what alternative are you offering to keep the country together?

Bruthal

plasmaguy wrote: »

Do you agree we need to raise more tax to close the current account deficit?

And please don't mention anglo irish bank and golden circle. That's another issue.

Do you agree we need to raise current account revenue and reduce current account spending.

Yes or no will do.

Do you believe a property tax is a tax that is equally paid by all that live in properties in Ireland, and so is sharing the deficit you mention, equally between all?

Yes or no will do there also.

Am Chile

plasmaguy wrote: »

We don't have a choice.

Do you think politicians get a thrill out of imposing more taxes on people? Of course they don't because they know how popular they are.

But we don't have a choice, anyone with an understanding of economics would recognise that.

We spend about 50 billion annually on current account spending.

We are projected to take in perhaps 35 or 36 billion.

That leaves 14-15 billion of a hole in the current account. We could borrow it, at approximately 5% interest, but of course we'd have to pay it back, and adding another 15 billion to the national debt is not a good idea and only make our situation worse in the long term.

Raising taxes is difficult but the alternative is unthinkable.

We simply cannot have deficits of 15 billion a year for the foreseeable future.

In Greece today by the way, it's young people who are suffering and paying for the greed and stupidy of their parents generation who refused to pay tax and continued to just borrow. The parents generation just pushed the problem down the road, and onto their children who must now pay the price. The exact same will happen in Ireland, it's not even an if it will happen situation.

The national debt is not like a computer game, you cannot press restart, or just go back to the beginning and start again. I sometimes think people think that way about a lot of things, just press restart and see if that fixes it.

Yawn, if you actually read most of the thread you will see people aren,t against taxes per se like you re currently trying to portray, they re just against any form of double taxation after paying huge stamp duty on their home, people on this thread have actually put forward other ideas to raise taxes but I guess prob never read their posts, Its Interesting timing with low numbers registered nearer the deadline, you all of a sudden pop up with your pro property tax arguments.

Mr CJ

gurramok wrote: »

Its 100quid in 2012. What happens in 2013 is irrelevant as we're not discussing a higher sum.

Irrelevant??? I cant believe im reading this...

plasmaguy

Did a bit of reading on this, and the older posters would probably remember rates which were abolished in the 1970s.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_the_Republic_of_Ireland

Near the bottom of the page.

Prior to 1977, all property owners in Ireland had to pay "rates" - based on the "rateable valuation" of the property - to the local authority. Rates were used by local authorities to provide services such as mains water and refuse collection. Rates for private residences were abolished in 1977, with local authorities instead receiving funding from central government. They continue in operation for commercial property.

So we had property taxes before, so its not unprecented, in fact we had them for the majority of the history of the state, and it was only with the Fianna Fail treasonous election promises of 1977 that we abolished them.

So when people say it's wrong to impose taxes on your property, they don't have a leg to stand on, since their parents and grandparents paid rates.

plasmaguy

Am Chile wrote: »

Yawn, if you actually read most of the thread you will see people aren,t against taxes per se like you re currently trying to portray, they re just against any form of double taxation after paying huge stamp duty on their home, people on this thread have actually put forward other ideas to raise taxes but I guess prob never read their posts, Its Interesting timing with low numbers registered nearer the deadline, you all of a sudden pop up with your pro property tax arguments.

Double yawn.

As I have just posted, rates were property taxes before 1977 until those idiots in FF abolished them, and relied on the totally unreliable stamp duty instead.

I trust you will stop arguing now that it's unprecented that property taxes existed in Ireland? They were the norm up to 30 years ago.

mikom

gurramok wrote: »

Its 100quid in 2012. What happens in 2013 is irrelevant as we're not discussing a higher sum.

Shite arguement.
It's got everything to do with 2013 2014, 2015,............ and some in employment and paying it this year may be unemployed next year.
What a difference a year makes........

MOTORISTS who drive the most popular brands of family cars will be stung for major increases in motor tax under changes to the system next year.
Owners of popular brands, including Ford, Volkswagen and Toyota, face the prospect of massive increases in their motor tax bills.
The Government believes too many cars are falling into lower tax bands, based on carbon emissions, which were introduced by the previous administration.


Finance Minister Michael Noonan and Environment Minister Phil Hogan have agreed radical change is necessary to reverse plummeting tax revenues, with one possibility being to link vehicle size and emissions for the first time.


Vehicles might range from small (Ford Fiesta), family (Toyota Avensis), to executive (Range Rover), and each group would pay different tax rates based on a combination of emissions and engine size.
The current system based on emissions has been criticised by some, including the AA, as unfair because it disregards the cost and size of cars, meaning drivers of larger vehicles enjoy the same tax rates as smaller ones.

Drivers who were recently hit with increases of more than 50pc in their motor tax bills in December's Budget now face the prospect of further significant costs.


Everything from mid-size family cars up to luxury models are earmarked for hefty increases across the board.
This is because all cars have become 'greener' thanks to sweeping technological advances in the face of EU emission regulations.


http://www.independent.ie/national-news/huge-hike-in-road-tax-as-motor-cash-dries-up-3039261.html

plasmaguy

robbie7730 wrote: »

Do you believe a property tax is a tax that is equally paid by all that live in properties in Ireland, and so is sharing the deficit you mention, equally between all?

Yes or no will do there also.

I believe that this country was doing ok prior to the 1977 budget when rates and motor tax and all kinds of taxes were abolished by Fianna Fail. We spent most of early 1980s borrowing money, and the rest of the decade trying to pay it back with massive income tax rates on people.

We should never have abolished rates, that's what I am arguing, it was the beginnging of serious trouble in this country.

Bruthal

plasmaguy wrote: »

I trust you will stop arguing now that it's unprecented that property taxes existed in Ireland? They were the norm up to 30 years ago.

The topic is not about whether its unprecedented or not.

This tax is to make up deficits etc, but is targeting a specific part of the community, not all who live in it.

plasmaguy

An example of the norm in Germany.

http://www.ptireturns.com/en/tax_info/de.php

I will post more when I find them.

It's hard to read some of the economic illiterates arguing that property taxes are outrageous and wrong and raping the people and so on, yet the Germans and most Europeans have been paying them without a complaint for decades.

I'd prefer if were like the tax compliant Germans, than the tax rebel Greeks.

plasmaguy

Here's the French property tax

http://www.french-property.com/guides/france/finance-taxation/taxation/local-property-taxes/

Here's the UK version (council tax)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_Tax

The swedish equivalent can be found here

https://www.nordisketax.net/main.asp?url=files/sve/eng/i07.asp&c=sve&l=eng&m=02

In fact almost every country in Europe has a property or council tax. Except Ireland after we abolished it in 1977.

No wonder we can't fund our day to day services and have to borrow.

golfwallah

Am Chile wrote: »

Yawn, if you actually read most of the thread you will see people aren,t against taxes per se like you re currently trying to portray, they re just against any form of double taxation after paying huge stamp duty on their home, people on this thread have actually put forward other ideas to raise taxes but I guess prob never read their posts, Its Interesting timing with low numbers registered nearer the deadline, you all of a sudden pop up with your pro property tax arguments.

We're up to our armpits with ideas from people on how to raise taxes.

Trouble is, these people have no power to implement their ideas and don't seem willing to get elected to implement them either.

We have a lawfully elected Government with a huge mandate to solve the country's economic problems.

I don't agree with everything they are doing but solving the debt crisis and getting the country going again is what we elected them to do. Reading the Oireachtas debates - that is precisely what they are trying to do.

You can't have it every way - debts re-paid without pain for the ordinary citizens or tell them to go solve the problem without bothering me.

Or debts re-paid by making a few posts on boards.ie - but maybe you know better and could enlighten us otherwise?

mikom

plasmaguy wrote: »

An example of the norm in Germany.

http://www.ptireturns.com/en/tax_info/de.php

I will post more when I find them.

It's hard to read some of the economic illiterates arguing that property taxes are outrageous and wrong and raping the people and so on, yet the Germans and most Europeans have been paying them without a complaint for decades.

I'd prefer if were like the tax compliant Germans, than the tax rebel Greeks.

plasmaguy wrote: »

Here's the French property tax

http://www.french-property.com/guides/france/finance-taxation/taxation/local-property-taxes/

Here's the UK version (council tax)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_Tax

The swedish equivalent can be found here

https://www.nordisketax.net/main.asp?url=files/sve/eng/i07.asp&c=sve&l=eng&m=02

In fact almost every country in Europe has a property or council tax. Except Ireland after we abolished it in 1977.

No wonder we can't fund our day to day services and have to borrow.

Show me what they get for it.

namloc1980

DoesNotCompute wrote: »

Anyone who doesn't pay up is going to force the govt to borrow more money, causing schools, hospitals, and garda stations to close. Anyone who refuses to pay will contribute to the increased suffering of their fellow countrymen, in my book..

Perhaps if the esteemed Government stopped paying out billions every year of our money in interest payments on debts that have nothing to do with the Irish public, then people might be more inclined towards these ever growing range of taxes.