Are you going to pay the household charge? [Part 1]

constitutionus

gurramok wrote: »

Tinfoil hat stuff. Plenty of independent nations already pay a property tax, funny how they seem to have small deficits.



It was a bailout just like the Greek one recently. Do you think it was charity?:rolleyes:

Wrong again

bollocks.

youve been caught talking shyte and you know it. the IMF even wanted to burn the bondholders but the EU said no.

were a sovereign nation.

we CHOSE not to pay property tax and to fund the maintenance of our infrastructure through higher direct and indirect taxation and HAVE done since 77.

what OTHER nations do is their own business.

go conform with your "ever closer union" elsewhere.

mconigol

gurramok wrote: »

Tinfoil hat stuff. Plenty of independent nations already pay a property tax, funny how they seem to have small deficits.



It was a bailout just like the Greek one recently. Do you think it was charity?:rolleyes:

Wrong again

Can you read?

It was Europes idea. That's an undisputed fact, hardly tinfoil hat brigade.

Also, a bailout is charity. You called it a bailout. He said it was a series of loans.

Take a little longer to read and understand peoples posts if you're going to reply to them.

namloc1980

gurramok wrote: »

Its part of the IMF bailout(note bailout) the country needs. If its not enacted, they will either have to find the tax elsewhere or the IMF will hesitate about giving us money. Hence Greek style. Oh and thats before the ratings agencies
make us a worse place for investors. That means less jobs been created as business will be too expensive to conduct here.

Everything you have posted about revolves around increasing taxes...taxes and more taxes. What about cutting out spending? Our spending is through the roof. We spend over €20bn on social welfare alone every year.

gurramok

mconigol wrote: »

I didn't say it wasn't part of the bailout so I think you'll find that I'm correct.

Nope.

mconigol wrote:

Simply stating that it's part of the bailout agreement isn't a valid argument as to the merits of this charge.

The EU/IMF Programme of Financial Support for Ireland commits the Government to the introduction of a property tax for 2012.

A property tax, requiring a comprehensive property valuation system, would take time to introduce and accordingly, to meet the requirements in the EU/IMF Programme, the Government has decided to introduce the Household Charge in 2012. The Household Charge is an interim measure only and a comprehensive and equitable valuation-based property tax will be introduced as soon as possible.

All courtesy of the bailout from the IMF.

mconigol wrote:

Also, renegotiation is not giving two fingers. Surely you should be able to see that.

In fact, when the government sees that parts of the agreement are not working it illustrates strength that this should be acknowledged and that another solution should be established.

Anyway, again off topic. The thread is about the household charge not the bailout.

Tell me you have more arguments than:
1. Sure it's only a few quid
2. It's part of the bailout

Neither of those arguments are relevant to the discussion on the merits of the household charge itself.

If it helps, pretend there is no bailout and analyse the imposition of the charge as if it were 100% an Irish decision. Would you agree with the manner in which it is being introduced?

From exactly what strength can a broke country give 2 fingers to the IMF by the refusal to pay the tax? Thats a new one.

And yes, there should be a property tax austerity or not.

gerryo777

mconigol wrote: »

As usual when someone realises their logic is flawed they make up what other posters have said.

In his case he hasn't even bothered to read or understand my posts correctly before firing off a response.

There's a lot of that on this thread.

mconigol

gurramok wrote: »

Nope.




All courtesy of the bailout from the IMF.



From exactly what strength can a broke country give 2 fingers to the IMF by the refusal to pay the tax? Thats a new one.

And yes, there should be a property tax austerity or not.

Again you simply fail to comprehend what my posts say.

Whether this is wilful ignorance or simply inability to understand I can't say.

Your arguments have been proved wrong and you know it. It's last resort stuff to make up things other posters have said.

gurramok

constitutionus wrote: »

bollocks.

youve been caught talking shyte and you know it. the IMF even wanted to burn the bondholders but the EU said no.

were a sovereign nation.

we CHOSE not to pay property tax and to fund the maintenance of our infrastructure through higher direct and indirect taxation and HAVE done since 77.

what OTHER nations do is their own business.

go conform with your "ever closer union" elsewhere.

Do you even see what has happened since '77 being a bad idea?

Perhaps you prefer a sky high income tax rate to make up for the selfish don't tax my home brigade??

mconigol wrote: »

Can you read?

It was Europes idea. That's an undisputed fact, hardly tinfoil hat brigade.

Also, a bailout is charity. You called it a bailout. He said it was a series of loans.

Take a little longer to read and understand peoples posts if you're going to reply to them.

Re-read again. The IMF are involved here, the tax is a requirement. Provide a link where the IMF are not involved.

gurramok

namloc1980 wrote: »

Everything you have posted about revolves around increasing taxes...taxes and more taxes. What about cutting out spending? Our spending is through the roof. We spend over €20bn on social welfare alone every year.

Of course cut social welfare spending as you say but that will affect the most vulnerable in society, especially those who rely on council housing.

mconigol wrote:

Your arguments have been proved wrong and you know it.

So you cannot answer the question about failure to pay the 100quid. Thought so, sums up the mé féin brigade that money grows on trees.

From exactly what strength can a broke country give 2 fingers to the IMF by the refusal to pay the tax? Thats a new one.

Bruthal

black francis wrote: »

Did I think paying hundreds of thousand of quid for shoe-box sized apartments in the middle of nowhere and then writing a cheque for 10's of thousands to the Govt for the privilege doing so was a bit crazy?

Yes, it did seem strange at the time.



So what? I'm not the one trying to argue it should be a mitigating factor in the payment of a household charge.

Im not arguing any mitigating factors, im stating people that paid stamp duty will be paying property tax on a property they already payed a property tax on. Thats a fact. Twist it however you like

constitutionus

namloc1980 wrote: »

Everything you have posted about revolves around increasing taxes...taxes and more taxes. What about cutting out spending? Our spending is through the roof. We spend over €20bn on social welfare alone every year.

and that ultimately is whats going to happen.

weve pretty much the best paid PS in europe and the last 12 years was bertie ahern opening schools hospitals librarys etc all around the country to keep backbenchesr happy and pay off union guys with massive increases to their members wages through "partnership". with a smattering of enda trying to keep the party going for his partys main voting demographic.

ALL thats gonna go.

were pretty much back to 2000 level of income now, only a matter of time before that results in 2000 wages.

anyone that thinks our teachers and doctors are gonna stay on their wages is deluding themselves.

TBH im starting to think pensions and childrens allowance are on the way out.

mconigol

gurramok wrote: »

Do you even see what has happened since '77 being a bad idea?

Perhaps you prefer a sky high income tax rate to make up for the selfish don't tax my home brigade??



Re-read again. The IMF are involved here, the tax is a requirement. Provide a link where the IMF are not involved.

Of course the IMF are involved. What's that got to do with it. Silly pedantic post simply because I only typed EU instead of EU/IMF

gurramok wrote: »

Of course cut social welfare spending as you say but that will affect the most vulnerable in society, especially those who rely on council housing.



So you cannot answer the question about failure to pay the 100quid. Thought so, sums up the mé féin brigade that money grows on trees.

What question? You didn't ask me a question.

Anyway, you haven't bothered to read or understand my points so I'm not going to continue this discussion.

Some people what to discuss. Others want to dictate and call them names. I won't have to pay this charge so I'm completely impartial. I tried to have a decent, civil discussion about the subject of the thread but it appears you aren't here to do that.

Bruthal

gurramok wrote: »

Perhaps you prefer a sky high income tax rate to make up for the selfish don't tax my home brigade??

The property tax will be from people`s income anyway, if they are lucky enough to have one.

Chipboard

I paid my stamp duty. I ain't paying the Anglo property tax. They can fine me and I won't pay that either. Then they will get a judgment against me and attach it to my house. I couldn't give a rats ass because I'm not selling my house and the judgment will fall away after 12 years. The only way they'll get me is if they are well enough organised that they revisit my file and refresh the judgment in 12 years time. Given their general uselessness and the fact that a whole new bunch of incompetent fools will be in charge in 12 years time I'm not too worried.

dxhound2005

Chipboard wrote: »

I paid my stamp duty. I ain't paying the Anglo property tax. They can fine me and I won't pay that either. Then they will get a judgment against me and attach it to my house. I couldn't give a rats ass because I'm not selling my house and the judgment will fall away after 12 years. The only way they'll get me is if they are well enough organised that they revisit my file and refresh the judgment in 12 years time. Given their general uselessness and the fact that a whole new bunch of incompetent fools will be in charge in 12 years time I'm not too worried.

These boys are not too incompetent judging by the amounts they are getting from people who thought they had gotten away with not paying their taxes. I think you might have some trouble avoiding their attention if you don't pay a tax for twelve years. The Household Charge legislation allows for data sharing between the Revenue and other agencies to facilitate collection of the charge.

http://www.revenue.ie/en/press/2012/pr-130312-defaulters-list.html

squod

dxhound2005 wrote: »

These boys are not too incompetent judging by the amounts they are getting from people who thought they had gotten away with not paying their taxes. I think you might have some trouble avoiding their attention if you don't pay a tax for twelve years. The Household Charge legislation allows for data sharing between the Revenue and other agencies to facilitate collection of the charge.

http://www.revenue.ie/en/press/2012/pr-130312-defaulters-list.html

What are you suggesting revenue will do? Shout insults through my letter box?

There's an equally organised campaign against the household charge. Have you considered what they will do to escalate things if fines or prison sentences are imposed? Fancy the country grinding to a halt for a fortnight? Would that suit you?

namloc1980

dxhound2005 wrote: »

These boys are not too incompetent judging by the amounts they are getting from people who thought they had gotten away with not paying their taxes. I think you might have some trouble avoiding their attention if you don't pay a tax for twelve years. The Household Charge legislation allows for data sharing between the Revenue and other agencies to facilitate collection of the charge.

http://www.revenue.ie/en/press/2012/pr-130312-defaulters-list.html

It'll be a different story when there are hundreds of thousands of households who won't have have paid. As for data sharing with the ESB etc. how will they know that the name on a bill is the owner of a property??

Am Chile

namloc1980 wrote: »

It'll be a different story when there are hundreds of thousands of households who won't have have paid. As for data sharing with the ESB etc. how will they know that the name on a bill is the owner of a property??

Even if they do get your information from the ESB they could not use that to actually prove you are in fact the owner of the house-all that information confirms is that you are the Bill payer.. it cannot be used to identify someone as the actual Owner, one estate I canvassed more then a third of houses were rented out, Im sure all those who are renting out its their names on the bills not the landlords, a receipt of a bill won,t be enough to prove someone as the actual property owner.

dvpower

Chipboard wrote: »

I paid my stamp duty. I ain't paying the Anglo property tax. They can fine me and I won't pay that either. Then they will get a judgment against me and attach it to my house. I couldn't give a rats ass because I'm not selling my house and the judgment will fall away after 12 years. The only way they'll get me is if they are well enough organised that they revisit my file and refresh the judgment in 12 years time. Given their general uselessness and the fact that a whole new bunch of incompetent fools will be in charge in 12 years time I'm not too worried.

Relying on the incompetence of future administrations is a fairly risky strategy.
What if they turn out not to be so incompetent and start enforcement proceedings against you? You may end up with a massive accumulated tax bill with interest and penalties.

I can understand people not paying the tax in the hope that its defeated, but if it isn't and they have you in their sights then payment is pretty much a certainty.

dvpower

squod wrote: »

What are you suggesting revenue will do? Shout insults through my letter box?

There's an equally organised campaign against the household charge. Have you considered what they will do to escalate things if fines or prison sentences are imposed? Fancy the country grinding to a halt for a fortnight? Would that suit you?

The anti household charge campaign cannot bring the country to a halt.
To suggest it could is fanciful nonsence.

namloc1980

dvpower wrote: »

Relying on the incompetence of future administrations is a fairly risky strategy.
What if they turn out not to be so incompetent and start enforcement proceedings against you? You may end up with a massive accumulated tax bill with interest and penalties.

I can understand people not paying the tax in the hope that its defeated, but if it isn't and they have you in their sights then payment is pretty much a certainty.

Yes yes and they will put it on your house as a judgment etc. etc. Many people won't be selling their houses for many years to come so they can put all the judgments in the world on houses for what good it will do.

dvpower

namloc1980 wrote: »

It'll be a different story when there are hundreds of thousands of households who won't have have paid. As for data sharing with the ESB etc. how will they know that the name on a bill is the owner of a property??

Revenue stamp duty records for one. Land registry records for another.

dvpower

namloc1980 wrote: »

Yes yes and they will put it on your house as a judgment etc. etc. Many people won't be selling their houses for many years to come so they can put all the judgments in the world on houses for what good it will do.

As has been pointed out by many on the No side on this thread, we don't know what future enforcement methods they will employ.

namloc1980

dvpower wrote: »

As has been pointed out by many on the No side on this thread, we don't know what future enforcement methods they will employ.

Ah shur maybe they'll build gigantic concentration camps and imprison 100k people all in one go?

dvpower

namloc1980 wrote: »

Ah shur maybe they'll build gigantic concentration camps and imprison 100k people all in one go?

Well now you're being sillyer.

mikom

The household charge....... supposedly to fund cash-strapped local authorities.

COUNCILLORS and local authority officials are jetting off for St Patrick's Day bashes abroad this year at a cost of up to €60,000.


Mayor of Co Clare Pat Hayes is leading the most expensive trip, travelling to New York with four officials at a cost of €12,000.
Meanwhile, at least 20 more representatives from around the country will also be hitting the Big Apple.


However, Waterford County Council has refused to name the two representatives it is sending, at a cost of €4,540, for "security reasons".
Cork City lord mayor Terry Shannon has already drowned the shamrock in New York, attending a St Patrick's banquet in the city last weekend with Cork TD and Junior Health Minster Kathleen Lynch.
Ms Lynch -- in New York to represent the Government at a UN conference -- was a guest, with Mr Shannon, of the New York County Cork Association, which held a dinner for 500 Irish Americans last Saturday.
Mr Shannon said he didn't know how much the trip cost.


Dublin City is sending a five-strong team to San Jose, California, this weekend, led by Labour mayor Andrew Montague, at a cost of €7,500.
Meanwhile, others who are North America-bound include Cavan cathaoirleach Sean McKiernan, Kerry mayor Tim Buckley, and councillors Eoin Holmes, Nick Killian and John Farrelly from Co Meath.


Visiting
The royal county is also sending Councillor Oliver Fox to London.
Roscommon mayor Eugene Murphy is visiting Tucson in Arizona with a council official, at a cost of €2,000.


A spokesman said a Roscommon native named Don Hugo O'Connor established the first modern settlement in Tucson in 1775 and the visit was to maintain cultural and economic ties.


Meanwhile, Co Limerick cathaoirleach Mary Harty travelled to Birmingham with a council official last Friday and will be going to New Brunswick and New York for St Patrick's Day itself at a cost of €4,100.
Offaly, Carlow, Kildare and South Tipperary Councils are all sending two representatives to New York, at a combined cost €11,470.


Cork County Council is sending two representatives to New York and Chicago respectively but has not provided costs.
The €12,000 cost of sending five Co Clare representatives to New York is the costliest trip to emerge in the survey. Mr Hayes called the event "a major coup".

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/60000-bill-for-council-trips-on-st-patricks-day-3046661.html

Not a rex will ye be getting off me.

Cut the waste, then we'll talk.

namloc1980

dvpower wrote: »

Well now you're being sillyer.

Well you tell me what they will do?

dxhound2005

squod wrote: »

What are you suggesting revenue will do? Shout insults through my letter box?

There's an equally organised campaign against the household charge. Have you considered what they will do to escalate things if fines or prison sentences are imposed? Fancy the country grinding to a halt for a fortnight? Would that suit you?

Not one TD from Fine Gael, Labour or Fianna Fail has come out against the tax. I'm not sure about Sinn Fein's TD's but the party position is that people should not defy the law. The campaign is just the Socialist Party and Independents who have to be for more spending and against taxation to have any hope of being re-elected. And various other fringe Marxist types intent on disrupting capitalism. If this is the sort of representation you expect to be around in the long term to look after the interests of private property I think you will be disappointed.

Frank Black

robbie7730 wrote: »

Im not arguing any mitigating factors, im stating people that paid stamp duty will be paying property tax on a property they already payed a property tax on. Thats a fact. Twist it however you like

Seriously, I've no idea WTF you are on about.

I'm not trying to twist any facts, I simply replied to you're post who posed the idea that paying Stamp Duty somehow absolved you morally of paying the Household Charge, by pointing out the ridiculousness of his argument by the use of an opposite analogy.

You're the one trying to twist stuff, TBH I've no idea what your point is at this stage.

dvpower

namloc1980 wrote: »

Well you tell me what they will do?

I can't tell the future, but one option might be to get an attachment order on your income.
Or a simple court order.

Am Chile

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Not one TD from Fine Gael, Labour or Fianna Fail has come out against the tax. I'm not sure about Sinn Fein's TD's but the party position is that people should not defy the law. The campaign is just the Socialist Party and Independents who have to be for more spending and against taxation to have any hope of being re-elected. And various other fringe Marxist types intent on disrupting capitalism. If this is the sort of representation you expect to be around in the long term to look after the interests of private property I think you will be disappointed.

Fast forward to 15 Minutes into the video, you will hear Sinn Feins position.