England v Wales 4pm

chris85 · 25-02-2012 7:15pm

Quint2010 wrote: »

Like Tommy Bowe's bounce in Cardiff 2009?

That bounce was planned in Cardiff

RuggieBear · 25-02-2012 7:16pm

tolosenc wrote: »

In fairness, the TMO was right. And North did nothing wrong stopping Strettle getting to the ball like that. There was mention of Bowe getting binned for doing it, but he intentionally knocked it forward into touch, whereas North tapped it backwards. No rule against intentionally putting the ball in touch.

Law 10.2(c) argues otherwise...

IRB Law 10 wrote:

(c) Throwing into touch. A player must not intentionally knock, place, push or throw the ball
with his arm or hand into touch, touch-in-goal, or over the dead ball line.
Sanction: Penalty kick on the 15-metre line if the offence is between the 15-metre line and
the touchline, or, at the place of infringement if the offence occured elsewhere in the field of
play, or, 5 metres from the goal line and at least 15 metres from the touchline if the
infringement occured in in-goal.
A penalty try must be awarded if the offence prevents a try that would probably otherwise
have been scored.

decisions · 25-02-2012 7:17pm

The rugby gods seem to have decided that Wales are winning the Grand Slam as an apology for their decision to give the WC to NZ.

Fishooks12 · 25-02-2012 7:18pm

decisions wrote: »

The rugby gods seem to have decided that Wales are winning the Grand Slam as an apology for their decision to give the WC to NZ.

If they play like they did today against France they'll be winning no slam

greendom · 25-02-2012 7:20pm

Loved the TMO - "here in the valleys, we say no try boyo" - who's genius idea was it to give that role to someone from the far side of the Severn ?

he did have a point though, it was very difficult to tell. Could really have done with another couple of angles to be sure.

cgpg5 · 25-02-2012 7:28pm

Ardillaun wrote: »

Good teams make their luck. Wales have an almost Australian feel these days, they just seem to be able to wangle their way out of tight situations. That comes from having the wherewithal to change your tactics in the middle of a game. England should have won but their defence, otherwise highly effective, was vulnerable to short kicks and Wales figured that out.

The Welsh did seem to pull down an English maul there at the end. Whenever that happens, it should be punished.

Strettle looks almost good enough for international rugby but not quite; like Monye and Cueto, he was found wanting when his team needed him to close the deal. He has no momentum when tackled either. I didn't think it was a try.
Tuilagi's game is improving, with more variety now, and Barritt's tackling was impressive. He not only stopped players but often sent them backwards as well. They will be a big problem for us. As will Courtney Lawes if he remembers not to give the ball away.

Are you referring to the last try or the match in general. Very harsh if the former. Thought Strettle was grand overall didn't get much ball tbh was no worse than Ashton. On the other hand I forgot Cuthbert was playing.

I agree, if England play like that on March 17th we'll do very well to beat them. They have a fully fit again Lawes to come back in and Tom Wood probably.

thomond2006 · 25-02-2012 7:29pm

Great game, absolutely gripping stuff. The physicality was ferocious, some monstrous hits.

I'm delighted Lawes played his part in the defeat.

iroced · 25-02-2012 7:32pm

Hum... I don't quite get the "thing" against Wales here. I thought the refereeing was pretty even... despite being wrong and/or "absent" at times (especially from the bald touch ref - don't remember his name -). Most of the English line-outs were not straight, some of them very clearly, there was also a YC (at least) on the English player who dragged down the Welsh guy who took the ball on a line-out near the end, a few "forgotten" forward passes and a couple of situations where they didn't release the ball on the ground but were "allowed" a bit more time than the Welsh (ah well this last one could just be the "home" advantage"

)...
So yeah in the end, there could/should have been a YC and penalty against Wales but overall I don't think the ref advantaged one team.
And about the try itself, not sure the ball actually touched the ground...

Anyway, England should have won the game at 12-6 15 against 14 but they were unable to keep the ball or use it well.

I am very impressed by this Welsh team. They never panick. I thought they were quite poor today. In particular Priestland was appalling. Their kicking was very poor, they couldn't find touches, they were not pushing back the English backs on their long kicks, they were just giving them back possesion which was surprising... When they were attacking they very often looked lost on the picth, not knowing what to do with the ball and thus scrolling from left to right without progressing, which was even more surprising. BUT, they seem to have such a great confidence in themselves that they never stop trying to play. Even very dangerously from their own 22 (which cost them points today). And in the end, they got the reward for playing.

I think it's a great sign for rugby that a team that is not refusing to play, not waiting on its opposition to commit fouls, does win. They are confirming their very good WC, which could have been so much better only for them to have a better 10 and/or kicker.

It's gonna be very very tough for us to win the tournament this year as, not only we need to beat Ireland & England at home (and well Scotland tomorrow) but we'll need to beat the Welsh at the Millenium and I just don't see how...

flyingoutside · 25-02-2012 7:33pm

RuggieBear wrote: »

Law 10.2(c) argues otherwise...

I was just looking for that

razorblunt · 25-02-2012 7:35pm

The worrying thing about the welsh for other teams is that they never seem to panic. They have such self belief they know they'll get another shot of they're behind and it's up to themselves to take it.

Anyone else noticed Ben Morgan looks like Ben Cohens younger slower bigger brother?

cgpg5 · 25-02-2012 7:35pm

iroced wrote: »

Hum... I don't quite get the "thing" against Wales here. I thought the refereeing was pretty even... despite being wrong and/or "absent" at times (especially from the bald touch ref - don't remember his name -). Most of the English line-outs were not straight, some of them very clearly, there was also a YC (at least) on the English player who dragged down the Welsh guy who took the ball on a line-out near the end, a few "forgotten" forward passes and a couple of situations where they didn't release the ball on the ground but were "allowed" a bit more time than the Welsh...
So yeah in the end, there could have been a YC and penalty against Wales but overall I don't think the ref advantaged one team.
And about the try itself, not sure the ball actually touched the ground...

Anyway, England should have won the game at 12-6 15 against 14 but they were unable to keep the ball or use it well.

I am very impressed by this Welsh team. They never panick. I thought they were quite poor today. In particular Priestland was appalling. Their kicking was very poor, they couldn't find touches, they were not pushing back the English backs on their long kicks, they were just giving them back possesion which was surprising... When they were attacking they very often looked lost on the picth, not knowing what to do with the ball and thus scrolling from left to right without progressing, which was even more surprising. BUT, they seem to have such a great confidence in themselves that they never stop trying to play. Even very dangerously from their own 22 (which cost them points today). And in the end, they got the reward for playing.

I think it's a great sign for rugby that a team that is not refusing to play, not waiting on its opposition to commit fouls, does win. They are confirming their very good WC, which could have been so much better only for them to have a better 10 and/or kicker.

It's gonna be very very tough for us to win the tournament this year as, not only we need to beat Ireland & England at home (and well Scotland tomorrow) but we'll need to beat the Welsh at the Millenium and I just don't see how...

(First bold)- Did you even see this properly? Robshaw didn't move whatsoever if anything Warburton fell on top of Robshaw and cosequently looked like he was taken out. Would have been incredibly harsh absolutely zero intent.

(Second)- What's with the pessimism? Ye are streets ahead of the other 6n teams on ye're day I've no doubt ye'll beat us next week, Wales is ye're big test but if ye perform ye can beat them no bother

Lapin · 25-02-2012 7:41pm

duckysauce wrote: »

how ? we lost to them agin since

I know that, if anything that strengthens my point.
I think they were underestimated at the World Cup. Especially by Ireland in the build up to the quarter final.

Even after they knocked us out there was a sense that we were beaten by a lesser side given our positition as favourites going into that game.

Wales' continued improvement since then proves that that result in October was no fluke, and thus, removes some of the bitter taste we had to swallow back then.

leonard7 · 25-02-2012 7:41pm

speaking in ye olde english i see

shuffol · 25-02-2012 7:53pm

thomond2006 wrote: »

Great game, absolutely gripping stuff. The physicality was ferocious, some monstrous hits.

I'm delighted Lawes played his part in the defeat.

My thoughts exactly, ruined an overlap outside him and then gets his pocket picked by a back, couldnt have happened to a nicer guy.

iroced · 25-02-2012 7:55pm

cgpg5 wrote: »

(First bold)- Did you even see this properly? Robshaw didn't move whatsoever if anything Warburton fell on top of Robshaw and cosequently looked like he was taken out. Would have been incredibly harsh absolutely zero intent.

(Second)- What's with the pessimism? Ye are streets ahead of the other 6n teams on ye're day I've no doubt ye'll beat us next week, Wales is ye're big test but if ye perform ye can beat them no bother

Fist) I don't know if we're talking about the same one. I was refering to the one where an English player deliberately pulled down the Welsh guy by the shirt. I watched the game on the French TV and the replay was pretty clear on that situation

.

Second) Well it's not especially exacerbated pessimism but I'm just really impressed by this Welsh team. Winning in Twickenham is never easy, well at least for us :P so winning after a pretty poor game is even more impressive.
Then of course we can do it, I believe we have the team for it but it'll be tougher now. True we have an exceptional record against Ireland, especially at home. But you'll come to Paris full of confidence after this afternoon display. Then, we'll have England at home and we always struggle against England, especially recently and they will be eager for "revenge" after the WC 1/4. And finally we'll head to Cardiff. That's the 3 toughest games of the tournament in a row. So yeah we can do it but that's the "worst" scenario now ...

Richardedd · 25-02-2012 7:57pm

The Welsh try was a reminder of a pet hate of mine. He is clear through an easy score but I don't think he actually has downward pressure on the ball. I'm also not sure the ball touches the ground! you see it all the time in rugby he dives over the line but his arm is wrapped around the ball and only his arm appears to ever touch the ground.

duckysauce · 25-02-2012 8:08pm

Lapin wrote: »

I know that, if anything that strenthens my point.
I think they were underestimated at the World Cup. Especially by Ireland in the build up to the quarter final.

Even after they knocked us out there was a sense that we were beaten by a lesser side given our positition as favourites going into that game.

Wales' continued improvement since then proves that that result in October was no fluke, and thus, removes some of the bitter taste we has to swallow back then.

they blew us off the pitch at the wc, who ever thought that we were beaten by a lesser side was in denial , they got to the semi-finals of the wc its hard to fluke that.

duckysauce · 25-02-2012 8:09pm

shuffol wrote: »

My thoughts exactly, ruined an overlap outside him and then gets his pocket picked by a back, couldnt have happened to a nicer guy.

pity Armitage wasn't there too

Lapin · 25-02-2012 9:16pm

duckysauce wrote: »

they blew us off the pitch at the wc, who ever thought that we were beaten by a lesser side was in denial , they got to the semi-finals of the wc its hard to fluke that.

Not sure about that.

France fluked their way to the final.

duckysauce · 25-02-2012 9:22pm

Lapin wrote: »

Not sure about that.

France fluked their way to the final.

they would have won the final if it wasn't for a crap ref . But you have a point they were very jammy getting to the final.

MungBean · 25-02-2012 9:36pm

Richardedd wrote: »

The Welsh try was a reminder of a pet hate of mine. He is clear through an easy score but I don't think he actually has downward pressure on the ball. I'm also not sure the ball touches the ground! you see it all the time in rugby he dives over the line but his arm is wrapped around the ball and only his arm appears to ever touch the ground.

I'm not an expert on the laws so perhaps someone else may be able to offer better insight but as far as I know the laws allow for that. The word "grounding" doesnt only apply to the ball being in contact with the ground.

If your clearly in control of the ball and take it to ground across the try line then its a try regardless of downward pressure. Only when there is grounds to question if it was held up or knocked on can it be denied.

I am open to correction on that though.

iroced · 25-02-2012 10:06pm

MungBean wrote: »

I'm not an expert on the laws so perhaps someone else may be able to offer better insight but as far as I know the laws allow for that. The word "grounding" doesnt only apply to the ball being in contact with the ground.

If your clearly in control of the ball and take it to ground across the try line then its a try regardless of downward pressure. Only when there is grounds to question if it was held up or knocked on can it be denied.

I am open to correction on that though.

Not an expert either. But from http://www.irblaws.com/downloads/EN/Law_22_EN.pdf :

Law 22 In-Goal
INTERNATIONAL RUGBY BOARD DEFINITIONS

22.1 GROUNDING THE BALL

There are two ways a player can ground the ball:

(a) Player touches the ground with the ball. A player grounds the ball by holding the ball and touching the ground with it, in in-goal. ‘Holding’ means holding in the hand or hands, or in the arm or arms. No downward pressure is required.

(b) Player presses down on the ball. A player grounds the ball when it is on the ground in the in-goal and the player presses down on it with a hand or hands, arm or arms, or the front of the player’s body from waist to neck inclusive.

So a) confirms you're right about the bold part

.

jacothelad · 25-02-2012 10:09pm

tolosenc wrote: »

In fairness, the TMO was right. And North did nothing wrong stopping Strettle getting to the ball like that. There was mention of Bowe getting binned for doing it, but he intentionally knocked it forward into touch, whereas North tapped it backwards. No rule against intentionally putting the ball in touch.

Law.

"There are two ways a player can ground the ball:
(a) Player touches the ground with the ball. A player grounds the ball by holding the ball and touching the ground with it, in in-goal. ‘Holding’ means holding in the hand or hands, or in the arm or arms. No downward pressure is required."

Strettle scored.

"(b) Player presses down on the ball. A player grounds the ball when it is on the ground in the in-goal and the player presses down on it with a hand or hands, arm or arms, or the front of the player’s body from waist to neck inclusive."

Judgement Day · 25-02-2012 10:25pm

England were robbed IMO and I hope that Wales get their comeuppance against France - that's assuming France turn up after their impending loss to the Scots tomorrow.

chris_d · 25-02-2012 10:27pm

so are we saying england were robbed by the cheating welsh? if they were...

wales weren't that great when they were faced with a solid rush defence.
farrel looked the business at 10. a bit worrying as i was looking forward to a lot more lolling at england after their first two performances.

what a hit halfpenny took from tom croft under that high ball, and he was up straight away. that guy is a tank.

it was a bit like watching a rugby league game for periods. but a full blooded test match.

Digifriendly · 25-02-2012 10:50pm

Judgement Day wrote: »

England were robbed IMO and I hope that Wales get their comeuppance against France - that's assuming France turn up after their impending loss to the Scots tomorrow.

Absolute tosh. No way TMO could have given the Strettle score on what he saw. Wales scored perfectly good try. How were England robbed?

MungBean · 25-02-2012 10:56pm

jacothelad wrote: »

Law.

"There are two ways a player can ground the ball:
(a) Player touches the ground with the ball. A player grounds the ball by holding the ball and touching the ground with it, in in-goal. ‘Holding’ means holding in the hand or hands, or in the arm or arms. No downward pressure is required."

Strettle scored.

When is a player deemed to be in in-goal though ? I know a defender who has a foot over the line is deemed to be in in-goal. But is an attacking player tackled on the line deemed to be in the in-goal area or just attempting to ground the ball over the line though downward pressure while technically remaining in the field of play?

matthew8 · 26-02-2012 12:41am

Digifriendly wrote: »

Absolute tosh. No way TMO could have given the Strettle score on what he saw. Wales scored perfectly good try. How were England robbed?

Wales could have had 10 players sinbinned in the last couple of minutes.

steve9859 · 26-02-2012 12:49am

Just home from the match. Haven't read the thread but my thoughts are this:

Bunch of kids who will form the English team for the next decade played brilliant. The " experienced" guys who were brought on to close our the match ****ed it up. Youngs and lawes were terrible. Flood did nothing. The result, and whether it should have been a try at the death, is irrelevant. Today a new England team emerged, and it bodes well for the future. I would challenge any other home nation to field complete newbies in key positions, and play as well as England did today.

Sure, the result is really gutting as an England fan, but compare that team to the world cup team.......!!!!!

Webbs · 26-02-2012 12:50am

Wales for all their faults today have that feel of a side that knows how to win when things arent going great.
This was highlighted for me in the way that they played the 10mins down to 14 almost perfectly. 12months ago the welsh would have conceded a hatful of points, there is a real belief in themselves that they will win by playing or trying to play at their tempo and not at the oppositions pace.
Thought it was a cracking test match with some brutal hits and a real intensity from both teams. If its any consolation to Ireland I think this was as good as this English team can play and whether they can keep this up against France and Ireland is debatable

England v Wales 4pm

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