Secret Diary of a Dublin Call Girl

Eileen_Lang wrote: »

The "contradication" is only in your misunderstanding of what I am saying and flawed logic.

Ok, firstly, if you are going to suggest that my logic is flawed, you could at least point out where and how. Logic is not a subject I have difficulty with. Just because someone does not understand another person's point of view (because it has been expressed in muddled terms) does not mean that they are employing flawed logic.

Yes, I did hate prostitution, and I definately have had it worse in life than anything Dublin Call Girl lays claim to (which is not the same as saying "worse than anyone" at all - I could tell you about people who had lives worse than my worst nightmares if you like that sort of thing)...I have never felt an unaccountable compulsion to sell sex just because the market was there.

I am ok for horror stories, thanks. I'm sorry you've had such an immensely difficult time of things. But point-scoring against someone else's hardships makes it difficult to view you as an empathic person in this conversation.

I made a conscious decision to sell sex because all the material alternatives available to me were far worse, as a lot of women do, just as simple as that.

That makes me sad. Genuinely. Both that you valued your most precious possession, your body, so poorly that it was up for rent, and also that your choice was in fact fully conscious.

In my case I have no doubt whatsoever that if I could not have sold sex there is no other way I could have kept finding enough money to survive. Life is like that, whatever the safety nets, there are always people who fall through the cracks. I was one of those people, and so are a lot of womren in prostitution. As a result, when you take away prostitution you are taking away the last safety net keeping us alive.

I understand that this is how you view your reality. And you know your reality far better than I could ever pretend to. But I respectfully disagree. Other people manage to get by without resorting to prostitution. The options are not always and inevitably "prostitution or death". By death, do you mean suicide? Or do you mean starvation or death by violence on the streets? Because there are other options than these, especially for women who have the wherewithall to make conscious choices. I also find it incredibly depressing that you as someone who suffers Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder because of your days as a prostitute, that you insist on referring to it as a safety net. I understood that it got you through financially. But was it worth the cost?

During there boom there may have been an opportunity to do something to taqke that pressure off many of us, but frankly, nobody really bothered. THe relevant NGOs were too busy consolidating their dominance over any autonomy we might try to express and convincing themselves and others that they knew more about who we are and are better placed to make our decisions, while, with the other hand, maintaining and enhancing the funding streams needed to sustain their salaries.

The belief that autonomy is the highest value of all values to you is becoming clear. This makes sense of your position. For me, I would rather be vulnerable and dependent than autonomous in many cases. I perceive that what you are saying is that if you wished to survive INDEPENDENTLY without help from charities or hostels or community groups or churches, then prostitution was your only choice. I would never prize my independence over my dignity though, and you might disagree, but I profoundly believe that the dignity of men and women in the sex trade is undermined.

But there is another side to this...only last night I was taken to task by a very nice lady...because there are other prostitutes who are quite sure that they are not driven by desperation and do not want to be represented as such...much less see themselves that way...personally, I cannot get my own head round that, but that doesn't invalidate what they are saying *AT ALL*...because I am certainly not the supreme arbiter of who other people are, and what they think and feel...

While I accept that it is certainly possible that someone could exist for whom their prostitution is not a problem, in my opinion this is a person who is not fully flourishing as a human being. The core of who we are is relational, not transactional.

Dublin Call Girl claims that she chose to be a prostitute, under no serious financial pressure at all, and that she did not have a bad time. She had that free choice...yet now she wants to impose a different choice on other people on the grounds that she has decided that prostitution was bad for *her*.

Perhaps you could take the positive view; that she wishes to protect others from the mental and physical torment that she brought into her life by engaging with prostitution.

If she is in anyway real she needs to wake up, quit hiding in projective identification and attention seeking, take responsibility for her own life and seek help for her significant issues...and reinforcing her in her chosen denial is about the worst, most unhealthy thing anyone could do.

I'm going to respond to this assuming that DCG is real. If she's not, it's not relevant.

1. To me, it looks clearly as though she has woken up. Hiding her identity surely means that she does not want to seek attention, but simultaneously wants a creative outlet as part of her cathartic process.

2. There is nothing in the blog that suggests that she has not taken responsibility for her life. She has ended the vicious cycle of self-abuse that she was in.

3. She is in therapy for her significant issues.

4. Denial? I'm sorry Eileen, but I'm afraid that from an outside position it does appear that it is you who may be in denial here. I am open to being proven wrong - again, I feel a strong compassion for women who feel that prostitution was their only option, and I am deeply sorry you went through that.

I have known, literally hundreds of women in prostitution...sat in their houses, met their kids...even met their mothers in a few cases...I know they are distinct individuals and for real...

I don't think anyone here would dispute that prostitutes are distinct individuals and real people. It is precisely for that reason that I abhor prostitution as a practice.

Eileen_Lang wrote: »

The idea of using prostitution (or any state or activity internally perceived as degrading and/or painful by the individual) as a sublimation of self harm stacks up but not as rationale for demanding control be imposed upon the lives of others, nor indeed, any aspect of the individuals's exterenal, as opposed to internal environment.

Again, you show autonomy of the individual to be your highest value. That's fine, but it is ok if DCG, or I, or anyone else, disagrees with you.

Personally, I never had a sense of my clients as "losers". For me, in the context of my life and times, they were men who made a conscious choice meet their casual sexual needs through fair and honest exchange rather than through deceit.

I'm glad you took a human view of your clients...although elsewhere, you've said that they were ATMs with legs to you, which is definitely objectifying them. However I would not blame you for any view you had of them. However to consider them honest men is without doubt deluded.

From another perspective, I accept that any man who knew how distressed I was, and how much pressure I was under, would have to have something very wrong with them indeed to derive sexual gratification from me...which is why I (like many other women) also appreciated the need to deceive them about that aspect...because if they did not want to pay me for sex I would be in far worse trouble...

So it's an industry based on desperation, distress and deceit.

Eileen_Lang wrote: »

What else do you want to do? Humanely euthanise them? Or just congratulate yourself on doing them the favour of making life even harder than it needed to be for them?

Those are not the only options. They're really not.

We should be doing all we can to optimise our society, make it as safe and compassionate as possible anyway, whether or not people are being driven to prostitution, but that can never be 100%.

Here we are in complete agreement.

(I put the missing "not" in there) ...it certainly wasn't "normal" (whatever that may be) and it was very, very hard for me...but that is no reason to demand I be denied even that last chance...

That you view it as a chance, is again, very sad to me. To me, a chance is an opportunity to flourish.

I can understand that, but, unfortunately I cannot do that without an unacceptable risk of identifying myself (which would probably put me straight back in the same position) - beyond what is already on my site http://www.stop-the-lights.com

Then surely you can understand DCG's wish to remain anonymous?

Besides, I had to live it, I shouldn't have to justify it as well.:(

No. And I don't think you need to justify yourself at all. But if you take an authoritative stance in a debate, it is necessary for you to justify your beliefs. Which you are doing, admirably.

Babybuff wrote: »

I think I've already discussed what I'd like to do. Educate them, protect them and create exit strategys for them. These are vulnerable women. I'm sure they think they're are strong and invincible and able but to me they are just vulnerable women.

I'm a woman, I've been abused, I'm a mother, I've been homeless, I've been addicted. I found a way and it wasn't through selling sex and I don't advocate it either because I do actually care about other women who have had to endure these things too, because I can relate, because I can empathise and because I feel compassion for them and because I know that pain can't be erased by using yourself to buy what you think you need. For the pleasure of a man..ffs

Thank you for this perspective Babybuff.

Eileen_Lang wrote: »

...and now she is going to force everybody else to stop doing it (regardless of their feelings or circumstances) to get her own back...

No. An anonymous blogger isn't going to force anyone to do anything. She is going to use her voice, as you use yours.

creditable wrote: »

If a woman chooses to enter into the business of prostitution, she is responsible for whatever happens to her, physically and/or psychologically. If a woman feels she's in a situation where she truly NEEDS to enter into prostitution due to the alternatives seeming worse than any possible negative affects of the work, it's a result of HER lack of good judgment and/or misfortune should this turn out not to be the case.

I think you'll find 99% of escorts fall into either of these two categories. It's the 'women can only be victims' mentality prevalent in this country that evades them of any responsibility.

I think you'll find you know next to nothing about 99% of escorts. I do not believe that we are all individual entities floating around in the universe. We are clearly relational creatures in need of one another to flourish. We are responsible for our choices yes - but life is a hell of a lot more about chances than choices and that's a fact.

Canaan Disgusting Script wrote: »

If I paid €180 for a service and I didn't get what I asked for then I most certainly would complain What's the chip on yer ones shoulder about like? Nobody's forcing her to do what she does so if she has such a problem with it, WHY DOES SHE DO IT AT ALL??? FFS this 'pity me' sh1te does my head in :mad: She's not going to solve any of her problems by moaning to the work online about it.

This is frankly, a terrifying view: callous and narrow-minded.

creditable wrote: »

You're against prostitution because of the potential damages it can cause to women, but what about the potential damages to men should it's accessibility be diminished?

How do you know it's simply "a service providing men sexual gratification"? I think you'll find there are many men out there whose only available form of intimacy with anyone is through prostitution. I'd be willing to bet the affects of it being banned would be far more damaging to men than the affects of it resuming would be to women.

Prostitution does not offer intimacy of any kind. In fact, prostitution is the opposite of intimacy.

creditable wrote: »

Since you can't comprehend what it's like to be male, I'll list some things that could affect women:

Feminists may never have to be accused of modifying rape statistics in this country ever again, because the problem could become visibly out of control. Look what happened as a result of the Swedish model; in case you haven't noticed, Sweden now has the highest rape rate in Western Europe.

In the US, prostitution is least accessible in the liberated world, and as a result psychopaths go on shooting sprees specifically targeting women

2009 Collier Township shooting:

This has been dealt with by another poster. The idea that a cultural discouragement of prostitution leads to killing sprees is utter nonsense. Ever heard of ****?

Eileen_Lang wrote: »

I am not going to lie, I wouldn't do it, but there are these really nice women who have given years of their lives to understanding and catering to sexual needs...do we really have the right to decide their industry should be filed away like a dangerous drug?

That depends on what your values are. For you, it is negative freedom - freedom from intrusions or restrictions - that is the top value. Autonomy is important to me, but it is not my top value. I am ok with social contracts and laws.

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TL;DR - Summary - Some things are more important than being allowed to do absolutely anything you like legally - like beauty, intimacy, dignity and human flourishing

BarackPyjama wrote: »

Do you assert that there are some women without any scruples towards sex that would prefer to sell sex for €200 an hour rather than work in, say, Spar or McDonalds for €9 an hour?

I presume you are asking me if I agree? Obviously I haven't asserted anything of the kind here. Do I think there are some women who would rather sell sex than work in McDonalds? I don't know. You would be better off asking someone who has been a prostitute. Incidentally, it's not that easy to get a job in Spar or McDonalds at the moment, so I'm not sure we're talking about preference.

Personally I can't think of anything worse (than selling ones body for sex) myself. But it's an honest question. I've met loads of 'normal' men and women who'd get up on a barber's floor after a few pints so it's not a huge stretch of the imagination.

As someone who has only had sex in a loving context, it's a massive stretch of the imagination for me. However I can understand a woman being coerced into prostitution, or turning to it in dire circumstances.