News and views on Greystones harbour and marina [SEE MODERATOR WARNING POST 1187]

karma_coma · 10-02-2012 9:52pm

Found these architectural renders [PDF Format] from www.wicklow.ie . Don't know if they've been posted before but they give an idea of how the finished project would have looked

LINK: http://www.wicklow.ie/apps/wicklowbeta/SpecialProjects/Part%20X%20-%20Oct%202011/VOLUME3.EIS.APPENDICES/3.9.Arc.LowRes.Version/FINAL%20Greystones%20Harbour%20Montage.pdf

karma_coma · 10-02-2012 9:58pm

Also available on wicklow.ie are the landscape architects drawings which shows the darcy's field park layout.
Also has the overall housing plans.

LINK [PDF]: http://www.wicklow.ie/apps/wicklowbeta/SpecialProjects/Part%20X%20-%20Oct%202011/VOLUME3.EIS.APPENDICES/2.Appendix2.2/Appendix2.2.Landscape.Archts.Drgs.pdf.pdf

Cheeky Chops · 10-02-2012 10:21pm

So a field of mud. Welcome to Greystones.

Blanchflower · 10-02-2012 11:09pm

Cheeky Chops wrote: »

So a field of mud. Welcome to Greystones.

A field of mud, rubble, builders waste, material from the former unregulated town dump containing all manner of toxic materials and only God knows what else.............

Welcome to Greystones Mister Sisk!:mad:

Jimjay · 11-02-2012 12:04am

Jimjay wrote: »

Could it be that the councilors know that Nama will provide some funding and are waiting to embarrass guboh at a later date by dropping a bombshell that their patience and not guboh pressure have provided the lifeline for the harbour?

Although funding or non funding has not been confirmed, you could see this coming, was picked up quicker than I thought though.

http://www.greystonesguide.ie/nama-response-rubbishes-unworkable-deadline/

NAMA response rubbishes unworkable deadline
In response to NAMA’s communication with Sispar Cllr Ciarán Hayden said “ NAMA have completely rubbished GPDA/GUBOH’s demand for an unworkable three week deadline on a decision to build the Primary Care Centre. I have already stated that an imposition of a deadline involving NAMA is futile and it was ill advised. If GPDA/GUBOH concentrated on working with Sispar and local public reps instead of slagging them off on social forums they would find they could achieve a lot more. Deadlines don’t work with State Agencies.”

Blanchflower · 11-02-2012 12:56am

It is more likely that NAMA may now be in the process of appointing a receiver to Sispar rather than putting more funding into the insolvent Sispar black hole. It can call on the guarantee from Sicon Ltd and Park Developments Dublin Limited for the repayment of the loans of €39.3 million. If the decision was positive then they would be telling us but everything is far too vague.

Nama Wine Lake report today that:

NAMA continues to appoint receivers to developers at a brisk pace, and today we learn from Iris Oifigiuil that the bell tolls for County Antrim developer Alastair Jackson and three of his companies, Naviasky Limited, Tarajan Limited and Botha Limited – all three registered in the Isle of Man. For the first time, NAMA has used the services of Lisney in Dublin and Peter Stapleton is named as the property receiver.

The main role of NAMA is as a debt collector and not as a charitable institution for insolvent limited companies.

recedite · 11-02-2012 8:27pm

Blanchflower wrote: »

It is more likely that NAMA may now be in the process of appointing a receiver to Sispar

In that event, would the bond still be available to be drawn down for clean-up/landscaping?

Blanchflower · 11-02-2012 11:06pm

recedite wrote: »

In that event, would the bond still be available to be drawn down for clean-up/landscaping?

The bank (NAMA) loan is guaranteed by Sicon Limited (ultimate parent company of John Sisk & Son Limited) and Park Developments (Dublin) Limited on a several basis. However Wicklow County Council may not have obtained such a guarantee. If they did not get such a guarantee then a bond from a clearly insolvent Sispar Limited would be worthless. Councillor Mitchell signed the Public Private Partnership contract on behalf of Wicklow County Council so he should be able to answer this very important question.

F3 · 11-02-2012 11:19pm

F3 wrote: »

Normally bonds are simply 3rd party 'promises to pay the bearer' when the bond is called upon. Think of them as insurance policies but for cash payouts when certain circumstances arise. The most costly are 'on demand bonds' where the party requiring the bond may simply 'panic' and the bondsman pays out without question. There will always be an enquiry into why the bond was called in and indeed if it has been validly called in.

The price of a bond and more importantly the Availability of bonds are proportional to the size and experience of the company seeking the bond. Contractors are required to provide bonds on most large projects. CompAnies normally have a maximum bonding capability and will not be able to enter into new contracts if their bonding on existing projects are still live or capable of being called. The capability of providing bonding is akin to a currency and 'on demand bonds' are now only issued (almost) on a cash deposit basis. I.e. you want a bond for 5m, you put 5m on deposit !!

Some earlier threads relating to bonds, we have no idea what type of bond has been secured, but it should be solid.

F3 · 11-02-2012 11:37pm

Jimjay wrote: »

Although funding or non funding has not been confirmed, you could see this coming, was picked up quicker than I thought though.

http://www.greystonesguide.ie/nama-response-rubbishes-unworkable-deadline/

NAMA response rubbishes unworkable deadline
In response to NAMA’s communication with Sispar Cllr Ciarán Hayden said “ NAMA have completely rubbished GPDA/GUBOH’s demand for an unworkable three week deadline on a decision to build the Primary Care Centre. I have already stated that an imposition of a deadline involving NAMA is futile and it was ill advised. If GPDA/GUBOH concentrated on working with Sispar and local public reps instead of slagging them off on social forums they would find they could achieve a lot more. Deadlines don’t work with State Agencies.”

The deadline I would suggest is not for NAMA, it's for Sispar and WCC. I don't mind repeating again for the slow to ' cop on' readers. It is Sispar 's obligation to fund this project, not NAMA's, why is there a continued reference to NAMA?? It is irrelevant. If Sispar cannot fund it, then they are failing to proceed, that puts them in breach of contract, so fire them and call in the bond for €10million ! Anyone getting in the way of doing this right now must have their motives investigated

F3 · 11-02-2012 11:43pm

F3 wrote: »

The deadline I would suggest is not for NAMA, it's for Sispar and WCC. I don't mind repeating again for the slow to ' cop on' readers. It is Sispar 's obligation to fund this project, not NAMA's, why is there a continued reference to NAMA?? It is irrelevant. If Sispar cannot fund it, then they are failing to proceed, that puts them in breach of contract, so fire them and call in the bond for €10million ! Anyone getting in the way of doing this right now must have their motives investigated

Unless of course they are protected by terms in the contract that allows them to give the two fingers to the residents and businesses in Greystones. So who is responsible for signing a contract that holds the entire town to ransom by developers??

recedite · 12-02-2012 1:26pm

Blanchflower wrote: »

The bank (NAMA) loan is guaranteed by Sicon Limited (ultimate parent company of John Sisk & Son Limited) and Park Developments (Dublin) Limited on a several basis. However Wicklow County Council may not have obtained such a guarantee. If they did not get such a guarantee then a bond from a clearly insolvent Sispar Limited would be worthless. Councillor Mitchell signed the Public Private Partnership contract on behalf of Wicklow County Council so he should be able to answer this very important question.

That's assuming Councillor Mitchell actually read the entire text before signing it.
However, now would be a good time for councillors to dig out the contract and find out whether the bond is collectible or not in the event that Sispar is declared insolvent by the parent companies.
It's totally unacceptable that elected public representatives are not disclosing the answer to this very important question.

F3 · 12-02-2012 1:34pm

recedite wrote: »

That's assuming Councillor Mitchell actually read the entire text before signing it.
However, now would be a good time for councillors to dig out the contract and find out whether the bond is collectible or not in the event that Sispar is declared insolvent by the parent companies.
It's totally unacceptable that elected public representatives are not disclosing the answer to this very important question.

My understanding is that this contract has previously been requested by Greystones Town Council and WCC has given them the perverbial 'Harvey Smith' in other words WCC have demonstrated that they care less about what this failed project has done to our town. What sickens me is that we have a number of Wicklow County Councilors on our Town Council so who is calling the shots here???

Jimjay · 12-02-2012 3:21pm

F3 wrote: »

The deadline I would suggest is not for NAMA, it's for Sispar and WCC. I don't mind repeating again for the slow to ' cop on' readers. It is Sispar 's obligation to fund this project, not NAMA's, why is there a continued reference to NAMA?? It is irrelevant. If Sispar cannot fund it, then they are failing to proceed, that puts them in breach of contract, so fire them and call in the bond for €10million ! Anyone getting in the way of doing this right now must have their motives investigated

There is no need to get personal, i can assure you that i am not slow. The nama decission is relevant. You say it is sispar obligation to find funding, they are looking to Nama for fundingIt is only not relevant once nama have announced no funding. Then it is up to sispar to look for other investors. If they are to give a decision in march then any deadline should be dealt with after this date. We have been waiting this long i am sure we can wait til march. If they have promised a decision in march and do not fulfill that promise then that can only make guboh's cause and public relations all the more respected. I am all for guboh and getting something done but why can the deadline not be moved to end of march?

F3 · 12-02-2012 6:07pm

Jimjay wrote: »

There is no need to get personal, i can assure you that i am not slow. The nama decission is relevant. You say it is sispar obligation to find funding, they are looking to Nama for fundingIt is only not relevant once nama have announced no funding. Then it is up to sispar to look for other investors. If they are to give a decision in march then any deadline should be dealt with after this date. We have been waiting this long i am sure we can wait til march. If they have promised a decision in march and do not fulfill that promise then that can only make guboh's cause and public relations all the more respected. I am all for guboh and getting something done but why can the deadline not be moved to end of march?

The comment about being slow to understand was not aimed at you Jimjay. Sispar have been looking to NAMA for funding for over a year now. The decision has been imminent every month of th past 12 months. Waiting until March, will only bring another excuse to wait until June, then September then by Christmas. Enough Now, really enough now.

pixbyjohn · 12-02-2012 7:02pm

When is GUBOH going to have a public meeting so as the general public will be enlightened as to their plan for the future of the Harbour, Surely it is time for this group to let the people of Greystones know what they want in detail. Have GUBOH ever had a meeting where the general public have been invited to attend ?

Jimjay · 12-02-2012 8:00pm

pixbyjohn wrote: »

When is GUBOH going to have a public meeting so as the general public will be enlightened as to their plan for the future of the Harbour, Surely it is time for this group to let the people of Greystones know what they want in detail. Have GUBOH ever had a meeting where the general public have been invited to attend ?

Thanks John I was thinking the same. It was my impression that guboh are working on behalf of the community but they gradually appear to be working more to their own personal goals. (only from what I percieve as a member of the greystones public) dismissing other peoples views, telling others how they should think and calling people slow is not really the way to win support.

I am sure guboh are doing a fine job and I do believe much of the progress would not have taken place if not for them however I think a public meeting or even some sort of public questionnaire would be useful at this stage.

Annasopra · 12-02-2012 8:57pm

pixbyjohn wrote: »

When is GUBOH going to have a public meeting so as the general public will be enlightened as to their plan for the future of the Harbour, Surely it is time for this group to let the people of Greystones know what they want in detail. Have GUBOH ever had a meeting where the general public have been invited to attend ?

Good point actually - perhaps though not just telling what they are looking for but seeking feedback on it as well. They can also then strengthen their case with a clear public mandate.

F3 · 12-02-2012 10:42pm

I agree, we should have a meeting with GUBOH, no point in us exchanging views here, who do we meet? I'm a member of the Facebook group, I know Fiachra Etchinham is spokesperson, but who else is involved? I see they often request for members to make comments and send email in, but I've not seen a public meeting advertised or called

F3 · 12-02-2012 10:53pm

pixbyjohn wrote: »

When is GUBOH going to have a public meeting so as the general public will be enlightened as to their plan for the future of the Harbour, Surely it is time for this group to let the people of Greystones know what they want in detail. Have GUBOH ever had a meeting where the general public have been invited to attend ?

What do you want John? I was reading the GUBOH face book page and it seems clear to me what they want

pixbyjohn · 12-02-2012 11:03pm

F3 wrote: »

What do you want John? I was reading the GUBOH face book page and it seems clear to me what they want

Not everyone has the internet or reads a facebook page. I would like to see a public meeting called by GUBOH so as the wider community of Greystones has a chance to attend/or not as the case may be. But at least those that attend may make a contribution and feel part of the future plans which GUBOH is looking for. Thats what I want. Also maybe a committee could be elected for the future.

The Durutti Column · 13-02-2012 2:26pm

pixbyjohn wrote: »

Not everyone has the internet or reads a facebook page. I would like to see a public meeting called by GUBOH so as the wider community of Greystones has a chance to attend/or not as the case may be. But at least those that attend may make a contribution and feel part of the future plans which GUBOH is looking for. Thats what I want. Also maybe a committee could be elected for the future.

I'm all for a public meeting. I think an appropriate moment would be after the February HLC meeting, particularly if WCC and Sispar ignores the Mayor's and GUBOH's call for a Plan B and brings nothing along. That really would be the two fingers to the entire community.

We need to take stock and decide how to proceed. GUBOH has done a pretty good job up to now — the south harbour is open and all but a short stretch of hoardings gone, which were its original objectives. But to deal with this crisis you need more than a Facebook page to connect with the community.

F3 · 15-02-2012 8:32pm

The Durutti Column wrote: »

I'm all for a public meeting. I think an appropriate moment would be after the February HLC meeting, particularly if WCC and Sispar ignores the Mayor's and GUBOH's call for a Plan B and brings nothing along. That really would be the two fingers to the entire community.

We need to take stock and decide how to proceed. GUBOH has done a pretty good job up to now — the south harbour is open and all but a short stretch of hoardings gone, which were its original objectives. But to deal with this crisis you need more than a Facebook page to connect with the community.

I think it would be great to get the entire interested members of the community in one spot, to have an interactive questions and answers session with the leaders of GUBOH, I would not like it to be contaminated by the local politicians at the ' top table' bladdering on about their own views which are quite frankly irritable and knieve, but rather listen to what the people of GUBOH have to say. They are a private enough bunch ( and I know at least 3 of them personally) and speak through a nominated spokesperson. Basil Miller held that role for the first 9 months or so and now it's Fiachra Etchinham, both are very polished and distinguished speakers that have come under immense fire from certain TC's who detest alternative opinions to their own. If anyone was so inclined, go the greystones guide harbour update and read the 10 or so pages of harbour updates from the Councilors, it is a hoot to read them in chronological order. Some are so entrenched in their own importance and biligerence it beggars belief. It would make a great comical sketch, hey maybe we should all write a play, steeped with satire to reflect the goings on from the very start?

pixbyjohn · 16-02-2012 1:24am

Please don't turn this thread into GUBOH supporters slagging Politicians and vice versa. It misses the point altogether when this keeps going on and does nothing for progressing the needs of the community. Come on guys be above the bar room brawling and don't let yourselves down.

F3 · 16-02-2012 8:47am

pixbyjohn wrote: »

Please don't turn this thread into GUBOH supporters slagging Politicians and vice versa. It misses the point altogether when this keeps going on and does nothing for progressing the needs of the community. Come on guys be above the bar room brawling and don't let yourselves down.

You appear to be a voice of reason John. But sometimes you have to stand back and paint the entire picture with an element of comical satire before pennys start to drop. Its a tactic that has been used for hundreds of years, [Shakespeare et al] If you stand back and really look at this issue, its perfect for comical satire. We could even get actors and have it to open Greystones Festival this year.

Its amazing how my Act 1 Scene 1 was deleted without so much of a PM from the moderators. Its my view on Greystones Harbour and Marina, its not slagging off, its not brawling, its a comical satire, I used no names.

My Grandfather used to say "never get into an argument with an idiot, he will bring you down to his level and defeat you with experience"

Cheeky Chops · 17-02-2012 7:34pm

Ok so how do we go about getting a meeting organised? Are any of the GUBOH team officially posting on here? There are many of us that would happily attend and voice our concerns but we need a forum to do so - this thread, as I said before, is going around in circles.

Time for the community to get its say in my humble opinion. GUBOH have been doing a great job but they seem to be becoming tarnished by association so I think it is time to open this up to a public face to face meeting for all interested residents. FB is not everyone's cup of tea and I am fed up with the hiding behind usernames on here. Transparency is the way forward - enough with the online dialogue. If I read one more link to Councillor's pages I will explode!

As Nike would say "Just do it!"

F3 · 17-02-2012 7:58pm

Cheeky Chops wrote: »

Ok so how do we go about getting a meeting organised? Are any of the GUBOH team officially posting on here? There are many of us that would happily attend and voice our concerns but we need a forum to do so - this thread, as I said before, is going around in circles.

Time for the community to get its say in my humble opinion. GUBOH have been doing a great job but they seem to be becoming tarnished by association so I think it is time to open this up to a public face to face meeting for all interested residents. FB is not everyone's cup of tea and I am fed up with the hiding behind usernames on here. Transparency is the way forward - enough with the online dialogue. If I read one more link to Councillor's pages I will explode!

As Nike would say "Just do it!"

I agree, I'm sick of leaving the community problems of Greystones to others, lets do something about it. I'll pass the word on to my contacts in GUBOH

Cheeky Chops · 17-02-2012 10:36pm

I thought you were one of GUBOH F3.

F3 · 18-02-2012 12:15am

Cheeky Chops wrote: »

I thought you were one of GUBOH F3.

One of the 800 members Cheeky. Are you not?

Cheeky Chops · 18-02-2012 1:02pm

F3 wrote: »

One of the 800 members Cheeky. Are you not?

If you mean did I sign the petition then yes but that certainly does not make me a member. I actually feel like I have no voice in this dire situation. The councillors appear untouchable and I have no idea who the GUBOH people are.

I 100% back GUBOH in their general aim but I sense it has got somewhat personal and sidetracked (might I add, originally instigated by certain public representatives). Saying that though I thought that you F3 and the Durutti Column were GUBOH so that has clouded my judgement.

I do support the group but I can't say I am a member because I am unable to participate in any way.

I am all for direct action. I would have loved to get involved in this very sincere campaign. However, I am not originally from Greystones, and it has been said to my face that I should butt out of local issues. I believe this has always been part of the problem - this whole "Greystones" thing. I remember the petition was to be kept in Greystones, whereas I would have had it all over Dublin with many more names on it. The harbour is not a small town development that is the baby of a few town councillors and the despair of born and bred Greystonians. It is a major east coast development, on the outskirts of the capitol of Ireland, with direct rail links to the city centre that has FAILED. It affects far more than just the people in Greystones. It had the potential to greatly boost tourism levels for the area creating many jobs with a knock on effect for the whole county. It affects Dubliners that used to come out for the day - who wants to bring the kids for a stroll along a building site by the sea? I don't go down there anymore. I hate looking at it. On the one side there is a derelict hotel aesthetically demonstrating the decay of tourism in the town and on the other side there is the embarrassing reminder of the greed and corruption that was rife in the noughties with the horror of the building site at the harbour.

Anyway F3 please let us know what the response from GUBOH is.

News and views on Greystones harbour and marina [SEE MODERATOR WARNING POST 1187]

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