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How would you solve the problems in the Education system?

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  • #242
    tacofries
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 854 ✭✭✭tacofries


    After the leaving cert look at each subject, and see what school done the best in each individual subject. Take maybe the top 5 schools for each individual subject and then compare how those teachers teach. Look for a common trend and then show that trend to every teacher in the country for that subject.

    Overall it should lead to higher scores


  • #243
    Feeona
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,633 ✭✭✭Feeona


    micropig wrote: »
    :rolleyes:


    Many factors involved but quite easy for some teachers to differentiate the questions asked to include all abilities. Let the students pick themselves what level they work at. Is presenting the student with work they can not do good for their self confidence & attitude to learning?


    Reduce the amount of the education budget spent on teachers salaries and spend it on facilities. reduced wages will more than likely only attract people who are genuinely interested in education. Teachers & students have better conditions.


    Not sure a link to a study carried out in the us is relevant, but heres a link to show, over all our educuation system ranks about 167th in the world, you can compare it to any other country

    Interesting link on discipline techniques that backfire

    Point 1 : I still stand by my assertion that you went on a crusade to tar another poster as a bad teacher.

    Point 2: I don't know why you think that presenting a student with work they cannot do is something I agree with.

    Point 3 : You did not provide a link with recent figures.

    Point 4 : The Coleman Report is a big part of educational training. If you were a person interested in education, you would know about it and be interested in it.

    Your link shows Ireland being compared with Germany. Just like you have asserted that a report from America would not be useful in Ireland, I can assert that a report comparing Ireland and Germany would not be useful in Ireland.

    I agree with the rest of your post .


  • #244
    micropig
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,366 ✭✭✭micropig


    tacofries wrote: »
    After the leaving cert look at each subject, and see what school done the best in each individual subject. Take maybe the top 5 schools for each individual subject and then compare how those teachers teach. Look for a common trend and then show that trend to every teacher in the country for that subject.

    Overall it should lead to higher scores

    Is the leaving certificate the best way though? I'm not sure if the pressure of exams etc and the leaving certificate as it stands, really shows a students progress and achievement.

    Are we teaching the right kind of material to set up our children to be successful in life?

    I'm of the opinion, the skills we are teaching the children need to be examined and updated to be relevant to the modern world of computers, technology etc. I think we should focus less on subject matter and more on independent inquiry skills etc

    Interesting video link Children: Their lives their learning


  • #245
    #15
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,784 ✭✭✭#15


    micropig wrote: »
    Links to figures you quoted in previous post please

    No chance of you watching the video and showing a genuine interest in the topic then? Thought not.

    On that basis, I'll give you the links and exit the thread. I'm only giving you the links so that you cannot continue to make false claims throughout the rest of the thread.

    From oecd.org

    http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/19/13/46971917.pdf
    Ireland’s 15-year-old students scored above the OECD average in science.
    Students in Ireland performed at the OECD average in reading and below average in
    mathematics.

    Wrt expenditure

    http://per.gov.ie/wp-content/uploads/2011-REV.pdf
    Pay and pensions for everyone attached to the Department of Education is €5.9 billion. This figure includes the Minister, all staff working within the department, teachers, lecturers, SNAs, caretakers, secretaries, etc. Given a total budget of €8.9 billion, the percentage absorbed by pay and pensions is 66 per cent.


    Stop with the 167th nonsense btw. Just think about what you are claiming for a second. I mean, really think about it, in the context of the society in which we live, the wealth of the country, international comparisons, etc. There is no metric that puts any EU-15 country so far down the scale. It's a ridiculous claim.

    On that note, I am out.


  • #246
    Miss Lockhart
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,639 ✭✭✭Miss Lockhart


    micropig wrote: »
    :rolleyes:

    I am not suggesting that they're are not behaviour issues in schools, but I don't believe all of it is caused by students being bad.

    It would be interesting to hear what you think is a behavioural problem that is the student's own fault - since you already offered a litany of excuses as to why punching a teacher in the face may not be a student's fault.

    I already thought most of what you said was nonsense, but that's where you lost your last shred of credibility.

    Also, you seem to believe that only you can define what is or isn't a behavioural problem. Your opinion is not fact.

    You appear to have extremely low expectations of students' abilities and behaviours. You want to explain away every example of inattentiveness or poor work as simply down to the teacher. You seem eager to excuse their failings at every hand's turn.

    Sometimes students have to be held accountable for their own behaviour and their own work.

    No doubt you will reply now by repeating the same statements and questions you have already posted ad nauseum - implying that I am saying there are no behaviour problems, no issues with teaching methodologies, no issues with differentiation, no issues with planning etc etc etc.

    NOTE I have not commented one way or the other on these issues.

    .


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  • #247
    micropig
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,366 ✭✭✭micropig


    #15 wrote: »
    No chance of you watching the video and showing a genuine interest in the topic then? Thought not.

    On that basis, I'll give you the links and exit the thread. I'm only giving you the links so that you cannot continue to make false claims throughout the rest of the thread.

    From oecd.org

    http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/19/13/46971917.pdf



    Wrt expenditure

    http://per.gov.ie/wp-content/uploads/2011-REV.pdf




    Stop with the 167th nonsense btw. Just think about what you are claiming for a second. I mean, really think about it, in the context of the society in which we live, the wealth of the country, international comparisons, etc. There is no metric that puts any EU-15 country so far down the scale. It's a ridiculous claim.

    On that note, I am out.

    Regardsless of my links to show Ireland is http://www.nationmaster.com/red/country/ei-ireland/edu-education&all=1

    Sorry I had the figure of 167th in my head but this is to do with time spent in school, so I will admit my mistake there, compared to other countries, is still not good enough though

    So average & below average is good enough as indicated in the 2009 stats? In my opinion it is not. Our children are not stupider than children in any other, so that leads me to believe it is the teaching methods and resources we are using.


    * in these statistics our junior & senior infants are not included as they are seen on par with Kindergarden/pre school in other countries

    **not saying junior & senior infants are not important but the same work is done with the pupils in kindergarden/pre-school

    Interesting link: students talking about what they think of the Junior cert reform, it includes them saying:
    If I was the Minister for Education and Skills, I would …
    > If young people were Minister for Education and Skills for a day, they would change
    the Junior Cycle to 2 years and the Senior Cycle to 3 years. They would have fewer
    exam subjects in the Junior Cert. Some would introduce continuous assessment in the
    form of project-based work or continuous exams.
    > If young people had a say in developing the Junior Cycle curriculum, they would offer
    a wider choice of subjects and place more emphasis on practical subjects and social
    and life skills.
    > Young people would also encourage new teaching methods and ways of learning,
    such as student-led learning and open discussions.
    > If young people were in charge of the Department of Education and Skills, they would
    ensure teachers were assessed more rigorously and encourage consultation with
    students as regards the assessment of teachers. They would also promote a more
    positive relationship between students and teachers.
    > Other changes young people would like to make included a school-book renting
    scheme in all schools; greater consultation with students and teachers on decisionmaking within schools; better facilities in schools; independent counsellors and drugs
    workers in all schools; and no education cut-backs


  • #248
    micropig
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,366 ✭✭✭micropig


    Miss Lockhart wrote: »
    It would be interesting to hear what you think is a behavioural problem that is the student's own fault - since you already offered a litany of excuses as to why punching a teacher in the face may not be a student's fault.

    I already thought most of what you said was nonsense, but that's where you lost your last shred of credibility.

    Also, you seem to believe that only you can define what is or isn't a behavioural problem. Your opinion is not fact.

    You appear to have extremely low expectations of students' abilities and behaviours. You want to explain away every example of inattentiveness or poor work as simply down to the teacher. You seem eager to excuse their failings at every hand's turn.

    Sometimes students have to be held accountable for their own behaviour and their own work.

    No doubt you will reply now by repeating the same statements and questions you have already posted ad nauseum - implying that I am saying there are no behaviour problems, no issues with teaching methodologies, no issues with differentiation, no issues with planning etc etc etc.

    NOTE I have not commented one way or the other on these issues.

    .

    Never, should a pupil punch a teacher in the face. I have said before that in some schools a better support system to help teachers deal with behavioral problems is needed and more consequences introduced for students.

    But In my opinion the following are not behaviour issues:


    Student talking/messing in class because they
    a) do not have the ability to participate
    b) They are gifted, but not stimulated enough
    c) They are asked to sit for long periods while the teacher talks

    & pupils from disadvantaged backgrounds have enough problems at home. I think school should be a welcoming place for them (at least they made the effort to turn up) and should not have more hassle from a teacher over not having pens etc..We should be doing all we can to accommodate these types of students in the class and encouraging them attend school.

    All of the above are avoidable

    Things I would consider behaviour issues
    Defying teachers instructions intentionally (but I think teachers need to consider what exactly they are instructing them to do and why it is relevant/necessary)

    refusing to participate in the work

    Prob a few more


    Edit: +1 students need to be held more accountable for their behaviour & work

    Edit: link to show 2011 high failure rates for leaving certificate maths & science


  • #249
    micropig
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,366 ✭✭✭micropig


    I changed the link in post 247, as I had added the wrong one

    Here is the correct link to show how Ireland is doing overall


  • #250
    #15
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,784 ✭✭✭#15


    micropig wrote: »
    140th is still not good enough though

    140th in years spent in secondary education?

    ffs.
    So average & below average is good enough as indicated in the 2009 stats?

    No it isn't, and this is a prime example of your behaviour in this thread. I've already stated that we need to improve. You thanked the fúcking post ffs.

    You asked for a link to my claim that we were average, above average and below average in the 3 PISA subjects.

    I gave the link.

    Instead of conceding the point and admitting that I was correct, you shift the goalposts and try to imply that I think the results are good enough, despite having already said we need to improve.

    banghead.gif


  • #251
    micropig
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,366 ✭✭✭micropig


    #15 wrote: »
    140th in years spent in secondary education?

    ffs.


    No it isn't, and this is a prime example of your behaviour in this thread. I've already stated that we need to improve. You thanked the fúcking post ffs.

    You asked for a link to my claim that we were average, above average and below average in the 3 PISA subjects.

    I gave the link.

    Instead of conceding the point and admitting that I was correct, you shift the goalposts and try to imply that I think the results are good enough, despite having already said we need to improve.

    banghead.gif

    Ok you are correct, our students are not performing as well as they could
    What do you suggest we do about it
    Why do you think they are under performing?


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  • #252
    micropig
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,366 ✭✭✭micropig


    to clariy the 140th
    students in a lot of other countries spend more time in secondary school than Irish students. We are rated at 140

    Out of 181 countries we are 162 nd ie in 162 countries students spend more time than students in Ireland at secondary school.
    1=most time spent in secondary school


  • #253
    #15
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,784 ✭✭✭#15


    micropig wrote: »
    Ok you are correct, our students are not performing as well as they could
    What do you suggest we do about it
    Why do you think they are under performing?

    going-around-in-circles.png

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=76946981&postcount=109


  • #254
    micropig
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,366 ✭✭✭micropig


    #15 wrote: »
    going-around-in-circles.png

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=76946981&postcount=109

    Yes and I agreed with you on most of the issues & thanked you post

    What exactly are we disagreeing on?
    The only thing I disagreed with you was on the new literacy & numeracy plan not working

    And asked where you thought we should get the money from???????????


  • #255
    Miss Lockhart
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,639 ✭✭✭Miss Lockhart


    micropig wrote: »
    Never, should a pupil punch a teacher in the face.

    That is not the same as saying it is the student's own fault for behaving in such a manner.

    The only reason I can think of to remove the blame from the student in this situation is that the student is acting in self defence.

    However, you found a litany of reasons to remove the blame from the student:
    micropig wrote: »
    Depends on why the students is lashing out
    a)because home life is crap and he gets the same nonsense from teachers
    b) he feels schools is irrelevant
    c)he is frustrated at going to school in substandard conditions with no resources / support for his emotion needs
    d) is he the teacher trying to get him to sit there for 40 minutes
    e)another reason
    f) He just feels like it

    I don't think if the reasons are a-e it is necessarily the students fault, regardless there should be support to help students deal with behaviour problems.

    You are very quick to remove accountability from the student.

    To me, that smacks of low behavioural expectations.
    micropig wrote: »
    But In my opinion the following are not behaviour issues:

    Student talking/messing in class because they
    a) do not have the ability to participate
    b) They are gifted, but not stimulated enough

    I generally agree.
    micropig wrote: »
    c) They are asked to sit for long periods while the teacher talks

    That really depends. "Long" is a subjective term.

    I think students should sit quietly while their teacher talks and if they don't then, with the exception of students with issues such as ADD etc, then it is a behavioural issue.

    To pre-empt your tried and tested method of jumping to conclusions and putting words in posters' mouths (see any post in this thread beginning with "by that logic....."): I do not think this scenario should be the way students spend all of their time in class.


    Overall, I think you are unlikely to engage teachers in a worthwhile discussion on the issues you want to address. Your confrontational style of putting words in peoples' mouths, selectively quoting and repeating your opinion as fact ad nauseum, all serve to belie your stated desire to discuss these issues with teachers.

    You have engaged in this discussion in a style reminiscent of TY-standard debating:

    Google a few facts, ignore all context, forget that correlation does not imply causation, quote said facts, jump on opposing team's response with "so what you're saying is you think.....(insert outrageous assertion here)", re-quote facts (still ignoring context), ignore all replies, re-quote facts etc etc etc etc


  • #256
    micropig
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,366 ✭✭✭micropig


    not suggesting remove blame from students but suggesting as the adult in the situation the teacher can avoid causing such confrontations


  • #257
    Feeona
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,633 ✭✭✭Feeona


    Miss Lockhart wrote: »

    Overall, I think you are unlikely to engage teachers in a worthwhile discussion on the issues you want to address. Your confrontational style of putting words in peoples' mouths, selectively quoting and repeating your opinion as fact ad nauseum, all serve to belie your stated desire to discuss these issues with teachers.

    In a nutshell. And you're not the only one to say it. Makes me wonder why the thread is still open?


  • #258
    Miss Lockhart
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,639 ✭✭✭Miss Lockhart


    micropig wrote: »
    not suggesting remove blame from students but suggesting as the adult in the situation the teacher can avoid causing such confrontations

    You already removed the blame from the student.

    "not suggesting remove blame from students but....."

    "I'm not racist but......"


    Both are equally fraudulent statements.


  • #259
    micropig
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,366 ✭✭✭micropig


    Miss Lockhart wrote: »
    You already removed the blame from the student.

    "not suggesting remove blame from students but....."

    "I'm not racist but......"


    Both are equally fraudulent statements.

    You seem to be deliberately mis- interpretating what I am saying

    In some cases the teacher can avoid getting in confrontational situations with the student.


  • #260
    Feeona
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,633 ✭✭✭Feeona


    micropig wrote: »
    You seem to be deliberately mis- interpretating what I am saying

    I don't think she is


  • #261
    Miss Lockhart
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,639 ✭✭✭Miss Lockhart


    micropig wrote: »
    You seem to be deliberately mis- interpretating what I am saying

    I will leave the deliberate misinterpretation to you thanks.
    micropig wrote: »
    In some cases the teacher can avoid getting in confrontational situations with the student.


    That's really irrelevant to the point that you believe that it is "not necessarily the student's fault....". Whether the teacher could have done xyz in no way removes the blame from the student for their behaviour.

    So far you appear to me to have low expectations for your students.

    Regardless of what teachers should or should not be doing, I believe holding low expectations, behaviourally, socially, morally or academically, is one of the most damaging things a teacher can do to their students.

    Contrary to your implication that there are teachers who fail to make allowances for students from disadvantaged backgrounds, I believe that too many teachers lower their expectations of such students and further disadvantage them.


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  • #262
    micropig
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,366 ✭✭✭micropig


    Feeona wrote: »
    I don't think she is

    OK Just to make it perfectly clear
    What I am saying is as an adult, the teacher can avoid getting in confrontation with the student

    For example

    Is it the end of the world if a student doesn't have a pen etc? just give them one

    If the student is messing etc,In my opinion it is up to the teacher to look at their teaching and adapt it. the student may not have the ability or be gifted. It does not necessarily mean the student is bad and the teacher needs to confrontation as accuse the child of being naughty

    Is it really necessary for children to sit for 40 minutes. When do you do this in the real world? If a child gets restless sitting at a desk, can you blame them? In my opinion again a situation easily avoidable by not planning lessons where students are sitting for this long

    If the teacher is standing at the top of the class talking for long periods (longer that 5 -10max) and the student gets restless, I do not blame them In my opinion the teacher should talk less and design the lesson so that the student actively investigates the issue themselves.

    If a student punches a teacher in the face , this is not acceptable and student must be held fully accountable.

    My point being there are ways of avoiding getting in to certain confrontations with students


    In my opinion schools school be about facilitating students to learn


  • #263
    Feeona
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,633 ✭✭✭Feeona


    micropig wrote: »
    OK Just to make it perfectly clear

    And I want to make it perfectly clear that in my opinion, Miss Lockhart was not deliberately mis-interpreting what you're saying.


  • #264
    byhookorbycrook
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 12,541 Mod ✭✭✭✭byhookorbycrook


    Against my better judgement to look back in, but I don't think you understand what an SNA is ,Micropig and how limited their authority is.

    As to time spent in school, Irish teachers have more class-contact than many other countries in the EU.
    http://www.oecd.org/document/52/0,3746,en_2649_37455_45897844_1_1_1_37455,00.html


  • #265
    micropig
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,366 ✭✭✭micropig


    byhookorbycrook wrote: »
    Against my better judgement to look back in, but I don't think you understand what an SNA is ,Micropig and how limited their authority is.

    As to time spent in school, Irish teachers have more class-contact than many other countries in the EU.
    http://www.oecd.org/document/52/0,3746,en_2649_37455_45897844_1_1_1_37455,00.html


    We are talking about how to improve the system, not what the current term & conditions are


    Won't a teacher benefit with another adult helping? Sna's main focus should be with the student they are supporting but if the student doesn't need support for that particular part of the task, it would be great for the teacher if the SNA's could help other students who are struggling

    SNA can help out other weak students. SNA sitting at desk with weaker pupils, may help control behaviour

    *Teacher is still in charge
    **Teacher also helping out students not suggesting all of it/or even most of it is left to SNA


  • #266
    Feeona
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,633 ✭✭✭Feeona


    byhookorbycrook wrote: »
    Against my better judgement to look back in, but I don't think you understand what an SNA is ,Micropig and how limited their authority is.

    As to time spent in school, Irish teachers have more class-contact than many other countries in the EU.
    http://www.oecd.org/document/52/0,3746,en_2649_37455_45897844_1_1_1_37455,00.html
    micropig wrote: »
    We are talking about how to improve the system, not what the current term & conditions are


    I think it would be prudent to take the current situation into account when discussing how to solve the problems in education.


  • #267
    marknjb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 196 ✭✭marknjb


    if irish teachers have more class time than other countries why are we falling down the league table


  • #268
    Feeona
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,633 ✭✭✭Feeona


    marknjb wrote: »
    if irish teachers have more class time than other countries why are we falling down the league table

    Link?


  • #269
    Miss Lockhart
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,639 ✭✭✭Miss Lockhart


    marknjb wrote: »
    if irish teachers have more class time than other countries why are we falling down the league table

    If I was to adopt the logic beloved of certain posters in this thread I might jump in and say: increasing teacher classroom time decreases educational attainment in students. Teachers should spend less time in the classroom.

    But that would be to ignore all context and all the complexities of the situation.


  • #270
    marknjb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 196 ✭✭marknjb


    new to all this dont know how to do links etc
    pretty sure i read it somewhere


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  • #271
    Feeona
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,633 ✭✭✭Feeona


    marknjb wrote: »
    new to all this dont know how to do links etc
    pretty sure i read it somewhere

    You might want to preface your post with 'In my opinion' so


This discussion has been closed.
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