whats the story with lasers

Jsmurff · 01-02-2012 05:10PM

gerrowadat wrote: »

Jsmurff wrote: »

Yes actually your right a torch is more usefull for the same purpose you would use the laser for

Torches are also for spas. All you do is wreck yours and your team's natural night vision. On any sort of night game scenario, a torch just isn't worth it.

Fair point but for CQB scenarios, especially in poorly lit warehouses, it gives you the upper hand on your apponents as well as acting like a poor mans tracer unit

dinko4gr · 01-02-2012 05:32PM

gerrowadat wrote: »

Anyway, to summarise:

Whatever about the legality, gun-mounted lasers are stupid and don't do anything but give people a handy 'shoot here' indicator. Get skillz.

i wasnt sure if the comment worth a comment but then again this is boards. using you model of thinking why use a scope its just for short sighted people get skillz. why use a battery. get a hamster with skillz. why use bbs. get mental bullet skillz. see where this is going ? no ? get spacesaver skillz...

Jsmurff wrote: »

Yes actually your right a torch is more usefull for the same purpose you would use the laser for

the laser pointer is used to pinpoint the location where the bullet/bbs will be in a given distance and doing that in a way that your location is not advertised (green laser albeit extremely "cool" fails in this principle due to visible line effect). the torch is used to blind your opponents/ light up a dark spot/room ( not in this order always). there isnt a bulb type/diode emitter that can produce such a focused beam of light to use a torch as a laser pointer ... or wait thats what laser pointers are made for.

Use of sarcasm in this post : over 9000!!!!!

Edit: No hamsters were harmed during this post !

Jsmurff · 01-02-2012 05:46PM

dinko4gr wrote: »

gerrowadat wrote: »

Anyway, to summarise:

Whatever about the legality, gun-mounted lasers are stupid and don't do anything but give people a handy 'shoot here' indicator. Get skillz.

i wasnt sure if the comment worth a comment but then again this is boards. using you model of thinking why use a scope its just for short sighted people get skillz. why use a battery. get a hamster with skillz. why use bbs. get mental bullet skillz. see where this is going ? no ? get spacesaver skillz...

Jsmurff wrote: »

Yes actually your right a torch is more usefull for the same purpose you would use the laser for

the laser pointer is used to pinpoint the location where the bullet/bbs will be in a given distance and doing that in a way that your location is not advertised (green laser albeit extremely "cool" fails in this principle due to visible line effect). the torch is used to blind your opponents/ light up a dark spot/room ( not in this order always). there isnt a bulb type/diode emitter that can produce such a focused beam of light to use a torch as a laser pointer ... or wait thats what laser pointers are made for.

Use of sarcasm in this post : over 9000!!!!!

Edit: No hamsters were harmed during this post !

Well what happens when you fire a stream of bb's across a light beam????

They become highly visible

alowing you to see their trajectory therefore you can adjust your aim accordingly thus doing the same job as yer laser pointer with the added bonus of lighting up dark areas and blinding your apponents

c28omzk7ihsxv0 · 01-02-2012 09:28PM

Just wondering, do any of the places that offer dark scenario games limit the power of your torch? Cause I have some torches that are pretty bright (Like 250ft range with loads of flood).

gerrowadat · 01-02-2012 09:30PM

dinko4gr wrote: »

i wasnt sure if the comment worth a comment but then again this is boards. using you model of thinking why use a scope its just for short sighted people get skillz. why use a battery. get a hamster with skillz. why use bbs. get mental bullet skillz. see where this is going ? no ? get spacesaver skillz...

Scopes actually help. Lasers and torches don't.

the laser pointer is used to pinpoint the location where the bullet/bbs will be in a given distance and doing that in a way that your location is not advertised (green laser albeit extremely "cool" fails in this principle due to visible line effect). the torch is used to blind your opponents/ light up a dark spot/room ( not in this order always).

In theory. I've never seen either used /successfully/ in practice. The vast majority of people with lasers and torches on guns end up not using the laser, and just pissing their team mates off with the torch.

Jsmurff · 01-02-2012 09:47PM

gerrowadat wrote: »

dinko4gr wrote: »

i wasnt sure if the comment worth a comment but then again this is boards. using you model of thinking why use a scope its just for short sighted people get skillz. why use a battery. get a hamster with skillz. why use bbs. get mental bullet skillz. see where this is going ? no ? get spacesaver skillz...

Scopes actually help. Lasers and torches don't.

the laser pointer is used to pinpoint the location where the bullet/bbs will be in a given distance and doing that in a way that your location is not advertised (green laser albeit extremely "cool" fails in this principle due to visible line effect). the torch is used to blind your opponents/ light up a dark spot/room ( not in this order always).

In theory. I've never seen either used /successfully/ in practice. The vast majority of people with lasers and torches on guns end up not using the laser, and just pissing their team mates off with the torch.

Unless of course your whole team uses torches

then it's just a case of your team pissing everybody else off

Steve · 02-02-2012 02:05AM

extremetaz wrote: »

This is the only aspect of the above post with which I take issue.

"properly aimed" implies intent - therefore the cover is there from a legal standpoint.

A 500mW laser on the other hand (upper end of class IIIb) requires no such intent (and nothing even approaching intent for that matter) at ranges extending well beyond arms length.

The quoted point is entirely nonsensical.

Doesn't aiming a laser at someone indicate intent? What about using a sniper scope and pulling the trigger?

My post was meant as a light hearted comparison.

extremetaz · 02-02-2012 05:45PM

Steve wrote: »

Doesn't aiming a laser at someone indicate intent? What about using a sniper scope and pulling the trigger?

My post was meant as a light hearted comparison.

I agreed with your post on the whole - the only point I was making is that in the absence of any regulation on laser optical energy, you could very easily do serious damage to someone purely accidentally - without any malice, intent or forethought whatsoever.

Which is precisely what makes anything above IIIa so frickin' scary.

BioHazRd · 02-02-2012 06:03PM

Considering the ambiguity around the issue, I think it would be a very good idea for the national governing body of the sport to come up with a guide for players that could be adopted by the players. If the law is not there, there is nothing stopping us from coming up with our own safety guidelines.

There are a lot of people (including myself) here who have experience and knowledge of lasers from a technical and safety perspective, and there is nothing stopping the incoming IAA committee from commisioning a group of suitably qualified people to look at the issue and come up with a recommendation on what is acceptable and what is not.

Steve · 02-02-2012 10:19PM

I hadn't realised the classification had changed: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser_safety

What's notable wrt Airsoft on that page is the fact that even the lowest classification can be dangerous if viewed through an optical instrument (i.e. a sniper scope).

OzCam · 02-02-2012 11:25PM

BioHazRd wrote: »

Considering the ambiguity around the issue, I think it would be a very good idea for the national governing body of the sport to come up with a guide for players that could be adopted by the players. If the law is not there, there is nothing stopping us from coming up with our own safety guidelines.

When I suggested that two years or more ago I was told to mind my own business, it was not the IAA's job, and I was a killjoy to even think of trying to adopt a rule that would annoy people, and sit back down and shut up.

In fact, every time I tried to do anything of the sort I was told "we don't have the power to make rules".

How times change.

Steve · 02-02-2012 11:33PM

OzCam wrote: »

When I suggested that two years or more ago I was told to mind my own business, it was not the IAA's job, and I was a killjoy to even think of trying to adopt a rule that would annoy people, and sit back down and shut up.

In fact, every time I tried to do anything of the sort I was told "we don't have the power to make rules".

How times change.

In fairness, and I mean no disrespect to anyone here, if the IAA *did* make a ruling on this, how could they enforce it? - Sites still have and will always have autonomy on how they conduct their business.
There is a wider issue there that needs to be addressed in Airsoft but that's not for this thread.

Gatling · 03-02-2012 05:56AM

Totally resigned to reading this thread ,
Surely its a case of if it can cause actual harm to a players sight the there's no place for them on any sites regardless of what any stupid arguements people have in the first place

BioHazRd · 03-02-2012 10:37AM

Steve wrote: »

In fairness, and I mean no disrespect to anyone here, if the IAA *did* make a ruling on this, how could they enforce it?

Thats the specific reason I said guidelines. Yes it would be unenforceable, but if the majority of players and sites voluntarily adopted it, it could gain the traction needed for universal acceptance as a rule

ironclaw · 04-02-2012 06:24PM

I feel lasers have little place in Airsoft other than the "cool" factor which makes them frankly pointless. Given the relative inaccuracy of a BB over the range in which a laser would be remotely useful, they pose more of a threat than a benefit. Red Dot and ACOG sights give the same effect with a greatly reduced hazard to all involved. Lasers serve no purpose for illumination, they are simply an targeting aid, which is greater suited to a sight.

As has been noted, if viewed through a sight even the lowest output lasers pose a risk to the naked eye. Unless suitable eyewear is in use, I would be all for banning lasers.

TheDoc · 06-02-2012 01:02AM

dinko4gr wrote: »

i wasnt sure if the comment worth a comment but then again this is boards. using you model of thinking why use a scope its just for short sighted people get skillz.

Lazers, torches and scopes are for spaz, and just for looks. Its added weight and literally only for looks.

your AEG fires between 70-100 yards, if you cant see that distance, you are going to have issues playing airsoft.

ironclaw · 06-02-2012 09:46AM

TheDoc wrote: »

Lazers, torches and scopes are for spaz, and just for looks. Its added weight and literally only for looks.

your AEG fires between 70-100 yards, if you cant see that distance, you are going to have issues playing airsoft.

Nailed it! Players need at most x2 zoom for maybe sighting in and even at that its usefulness is questionable. You also need a field large enough to even use it.

Bemused · 06-02-2012 10:25AM

Just out of idle curiousity, if lasers are as useless and some are asserting then why do real steel equivalents exist at all (presuming they do)? I can't imagine them being used in a real life situation except in a CQB environment, namely airsoft ranges, unless real life use is confined to IR lasers and the opposing side has no capacity to see them.

Puding · 06-02-2012 11:22AM

in real life

visible lasers - do have some real world application but the greatest seems to be intimidation, if you in a stand of situation with police for example and you see a load of dots on you chest people naturally think of all the movies they have seen, people imaginations do all the rest.

but visible can help with aiming especially when you may be using a large amount of protective gear ( helmets with facemasks or gas masks ) or alternatively when using ballistic shields

IR lasers - the most practical ones you will come across

dinko4gr · 06-02-2012 11:25AM

Puding wrote: »

in real life

visible lasers - do have some real world application but the greatest seems to be intimidation, if you in a stand of situation with police for example and you see a load of dots on you chest people naturally think of all the movies they have seen, people imaginations do all the rest.

the outcome is though that they are not as flexible as neo in the matrix ..:D

BioHazRd · 06-02-2012 12:28PM

In real life, bullets travel from a rifled barrel and due to the power and physics behind them, they tend to travel on a straighter trajectory a lot longer than an airsoft bb. Lasers in this case would be useful as they can be used to overcome the possibility of parralax error in the shooters use of a scope. This wouldn't be such an issue for a trained marksman, but it can help.
In airsoft, they are pretty much useless in this regard and I have only ever used one to point out a particular target to a team mate who may have a better angle, just like a laser pointer, which is pretty much exactly what it is.
They are also useful in a CQB environment by indicating to me where NOT to stand

gerrowadat · 06-02-2012 12:41PM

TheDoc wrote: »

Lazers, torches and scopes are for spaz, and just for looks. Its added weight and literally only for looks.

your AEG fires between 70-100 yards, if you cant see that distance, you are going to have issues playing airsoft.

I can see 70-10o yds away, but not accurately (long-sighted). A scope halps with seeing what you're hitting, making adjustments, etc.

tl;dr I'm blind as a bat and scopes make me epic at airsoft.

ironclaw · 06-02-2012 07:17PM

Puding wrote: »

visible lasers - do have some real world application but the greatest seems to be intimidation, if you in a stand of situation with police for example and you see a load of dots on you chest people naturally think of all the movies they have seen, people imaginations do all the rest.

Ever see a visible laser in real life? Realms of Hollywood lads. Its just for the effect in films, posters etc.

bullets · 06-02-2012 08:00PM

ironclaw wrote: »

Ever see a visible laser in real life? Realms of Hollywood lads. Its just for the effect in films, posters etc.

Some of the ones here do a good job of being visible
in Low light conditions:
http://www.wickedlasers.com

And here shows some different powers nicely.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woiTedSKPrk&feature=related

~B

BioHazRd · 06-02-2012 08:10PM

ironclaw wrote: »

Ever see a visible laser in real life? Realms of Hollywood lads. Its just for the effect in films, posters etc.

I have one, as it happens. The fact that it is visible is also an indicator of how dangerous it can be. Hence, as per standards, it is key locked and is too bulky to attach to a RIF. I am also familiar with the correct safety procedures in its operation. I would never dream of using it for airsoft and if I ever saw one in use on a site, I would bring it to the site owners attention or leave.

What we generally see in airsoft, is a standard red laser pointer (usually max 5mW) with a pimped out body. Anything stronger would be so far beyond stupidity that I would expect a site ban for whoever used one. Ignorance is not an excuse.

Puding · 06-02-2012 08:21PM

ironclaw wrote: »

Ever see a visible laser in real life? Realms of Hollywood lads. Its just for the effect in films, posters etc.

yes and yes they are played up in Hollywood the same as most things ( silencers anyone ) but they do have practical applications

http://www.taser.com/products/law-enforcement/taser-x3-ecd#features

Jsmurff · 07-02-2012 12:39PM

BioHazRd wrote: »

In real life, bullets travel from a rifled barrel and due to the power and physics behind them, they tend to travel on a straighter trajectory a lot longer than an airsoft bb.

Last time I checked bullets travelled in an ark usually rising above the level of the barrel in the first 300yrd's and then dipping way bellow the barrel between 500 - 600yrd's or at least that's how a NATO 5.56mm round performs in the out of a Styer AUG

If you compare the maximum effective range of a bb to the above, bb's have the more linnier trajectory

Jsmurff · 07-02-2012 12:44PM

Puding wrote: »

ironclaw wrote: »

Ever see a visible laser in real life? Realms of Hollywood lads. Its just for the effect in films, posters etc.

yes and yes they are played up in Hollywood the same as most things ( silencers anyone ) but they do have practical applications

http://www.taser.com/products/law-enforcement/taser-x3-ecd#features

Ha silencers! I remember hearing red jacket's integrelly supressed AK measured a whopping 120db :pac: yep deffenately won't hear that at all :rolleyes:

thermo · 07-02-2012 12:58PM

Jsmurff wrote: »

Ha silencers! I remember hearing red jacket's integrelly supressed AK measured a whopping 120db :pac: yep deffenately won't hear that at all :rolleyes:

the thing with sound suppressors/ moderators (silencer is a misleading term) is you need the round to subsonic for it to work, so you have 2 options;
1) use purpose made subsonic ammo
2) use high velocity ammo and find a way to slow the acceleration of the round and contain the expanding gasses (like a HK MP5 SD works).

Jsmurff · 07-02-2012 01:07PM

thermo wrote: »

Jsmurff wrote: »

Ha silencers! I remember hearing red jacket's integrelly supressed AK measured a whopping 120db :pac: yep deffenately won't hear that at all :rolleyes:

the thing with sound suppressors/ moderators (silencer is a misleading term) is you need the round to subsonic for it to work, so you have 2 options;
1) use purpose made subsonic ammo
2) use high velocity ammo and find a way to slow the acceleration of the round and contain the expanding gasses (like a HK MP5 SD works).

I know and the trouble with subsonic is there's a lot less penetration or stopping power in the round especially with the mp5 which uses pistol ammo if Iam not mistaken

I do believe there was a silencer in Vietnam that was used for the1911 that was effectionately known as the hush puppy and actually silenced the round but was only good for a number of rounds as each shot got louder then the previous

Point is it actually worked to an extent

whats the story with lasers

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