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Would you keep a gun??

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  • #122
    Local-womanizer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,798 ✭✭✭Local-womanizer


    token101 wrote: »
    Makes me feel that someone must really f***ing hate me if they'll go to all that trouble to kill me and maybe I deserved it!
    I'd say the reason you got no coverage in the papers wasn't because they wanted to keep you out of the paper, it's because noone cares about shooting, just like they don't about a lot of other minority sports.

    If someone wanted to kill you they could do it in numerous ways, like what happens in this country on a weekly basis. People are bludgeoned to death with hammers, crowbars or stabbed to death with kitchen knives. All can be acquired without a license.

    The majority of gun crime is this country is a spin-off of the drug trade. Making it harder to get a gun for the people who use them responsibly will have zero effect on the gun crime here.

    It's a shame that our shooting team isn't even remotely covered in this country, it takes extreme skill to achieve what they do. A mention is the least they deserve, after all they are representing our country and doing so extremely well.

    I don't see a firearm being any more dangerous than a car if it is handled responsibly.


  • #123
    Feisar
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,905 ✭✭✭Feisar


    token101 wrote: »
    I know it's not legal in Ireland. I was asking a general question. It might be his 'right' but it's not right.

    "Rights" are a man made concept and the legislature has deemed it a right in the USA, (each state has their own laws on this).

    So why isn't it "right"?

    First they came for the socialists...



  • #124
    ScumLord
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,789 ✭✭✭✭ScumLord


    Damn straight I'd own one, probably shouldn't be let though. Thinking back on drunken madness, I or some I know would more than likely have ended up being shot or shooting someone else by mistake.


  • #125
    Odysseus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,752 ✭✭✭Odysseus


    token101 wrote: »
    I know it's not legal in Ireland. I was asking a general question. It might be his 'right' but it's not right.

    Thankfully only in your opinion. Lot of people differ, going by a few people here I would lose my firearms because you guys think it's not right. I say few because I'm just ignoring those who think they can own a gun for self denfense.

    My understanding is that a lot of people who have a CCW permit are people who use it for self-denfense when cashing up and bring it to the bank at the ebd of business. People who are involved in protecting others, i.e. body guards etc. This is of course only where the person has the right to own a firearm just for self denfense. I do know that it is not that easy to get a CCW permit in those places when it is legal.

    I believe that every house should have a gun, and people be taught how to respect them. However, I wouldn't try to inflict that on everyone.


  • #126
    Feisar
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,905 ✭✭✭Feisar


    Shooting isn't really a spectator sport in fairness. I do a lot of shooting and I wouldn't watch it.

    Media has no interest in reporting on fringe sports.

    First they came for the socialists...



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  • #127
    Manic Moran
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,884 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    Millicent wrote: »
    God no, not for self defence anyway. Guns kept in the home are more likely to accidentally kill or intentionally murder or injure someone, or be used in a suicide, than in self defence cases.

    That old hornswoggle again.

    There are three serious flaws with that analysis. Firstly, a legal defensive use of a firearm need not actually require its discharge. The vast majority of the time simply displaying it has had the desirable effect. See statistics on "defensive gun uses"including US government stats, the figures are in the millions per year in the US. Secondly, murders and suicides tend to have a higher fatality rate than defense uses: Kindof hard to fail to kill yourself at a range of 0mm or when you deliberately set out to murder someone and keep pumping shots as opposed to in an actual combat situation where you may not even score a hit but still accomplish your mission of survival. Thirdly, if someone else kills himself, that's his problem, why should I be penalized for the actions of others? Look at the suicide rate in gun-free Japan for the effect of that penalty. Fourthly, the analysis seems to fail to distinguish between legally held firearms and illegally held ones. This thus further increases the 'penalty' effect, as the defensive use of a firearm is usually to prevent someone causing harm to include murder, most murders are carried out with illegal firearms which would not be unavailable, so all you'd be doing is making murder a safer pastime.

    NTM


  • #128
    Odysseus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,752 ✭✭✭Odysseus


    token101 wrote: »
    I'm glad it's that strict though. I don't want it loosened. I like the idea of people having to go through a lot of hassle to get a gun. Makes me feel that someone must really f***ing hate me if they'll go to all that trouble to kill me and maybe I deserved it! I don't, however, like the idea of someone strolling into a supermarket, picking up a semi automatic and some 10c bullets, and coming back the next day/week to pick it up and strolling off into the sunset like Billy the Kid, only to feel a bit blue when they lose a job/get welfare cut/get divorced/crash into my car and go ape****.

    I'd say the reason you got no coverage in the papers wasn't because they wanted to keep you out of the paper, it's because noone cares about shooting, just like they don't about a lot of other minority sports.

    My work brings into contact with serious criminality, if someone wanted to shoot you they could get a gun very quickly, so the gun laws don't make you any safer. If you where shot it would more than likely be an illegal gun that fired the round.


  • #129
    xzanti
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 10,463 Mod ✭✭✭✭xzanti


    Never.. I have a child and the amount of stories you hear of teenagers acting the Rambo with their parents' gun and shooting themselves or their friends..

    NO WAY..

    Also something terrible happened recently in a neighbouring town to mine.. Teenage boy got into a fit of rage with his Father following a hunting outing.. took his Father's gun and blew his own head off in front of his whole family.. only happened the week before Christmas just gone..

    It's just not worth the risk, however small a risk it is..


  • #130
    clashburke
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 172 ✭✭clashburke


    token101 wrote: »

    I'd say the reason you got no coverage in the papers wasn't because they wanted to keep you out of the paper, it's because noone cares about shooting, just like they don't about a lot of other minority sports.

    a lot of people care about how our country is represented and what is achieved by Irish teams. someone may not care for the sport but can be intrested in the international achievements of the national team.

    And even so a minority sport could get a mention somewhere in the 90 odd pages of a sunday paper. Some of there people are exceptional at there chosen sport and it should be acknowledged.


  • #131
    Seachmall
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,041 ✭✭✭Seachmall


    xzanti wrote: »
    Never.. I have a child and the amount of stories you hear of teenagers acting the Rambo with their parents' gun and shooting themselves or their friends..

    In fairness they're typically due to irresponsible parents storing their weapons irresponsibly.

    If I recall correctly in Ireland you are required to store your firearms and ammo separately under lock.


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  • #132
    Fear Uladh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 810 ✭✭✭Fear Uladh


    I would own one if I was living in a dodgy enough area or somewhere that warrants it.

    I would have it in a safe that would be for my use only, so that no accidents occur.


  • #133
    Manic Moran
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,884 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    Why do private citizens need to carry concealed guns in public? I can't honestly think of a single reason why in ordinary day to day life you would need a deadly weapon on your person.

    I can think of a reason: A number of instances which would require the use of a weapon for self defense tend to happen at places other than the shooting range or the house gun locker. Further, one is not normally given advance indication that one is about to be involved in something unpleasant, from rape to robbery, so carrying it just means you're prepared for what are, unfortunately, not such uncommon events. It doesn't take much Googling to find practical examples of CCW holders finding legitimate needs.


  • #134
    Gareth2011
    Closed Accounts Posts: 579 ✭✭✭Gareth2011


    token101 wrote: »
    People don't generally carry knives outside unless there's a very specific reason (ie a tradesmen), and if they do that's illegal (or should be if it isn't!!!!).QUOTE]

    Its not illegal for my wife to carry knives on her person. She carries about 9 of them around with her every day. But she's a chef :D. Obsivously only when shes going in or out of work she wouldn't go shopping with them tied around her waist like a gun belt. :eek:. But she always says god help anyone if they ever try anything with her when she has them she says she will carve them like a piece of meat lol.


  • #135
    Seachmall
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,041 ✭✭✭Seachmall


    Gareth2011 wrote: »
    Its not illegal for my wife to carry knives on her person. She carries about 9 of them around with her every day. But she's a chef :D.

    Interestingly enough it is illegal. If found carrying a knife you are assumed to have committed an offence until you can show you have legitimate reason for the knife and for the type of knife.

    Obviously your wife would be fine but it's interesting to know. When it comes to carrying knives you're, in essence, guilty until proven innocent.


  • #136
    Batsy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,341 ✭✭✭Batsy


    Odysseus wrote: »
    You cannot possess a firearm for self-defense,

    Owning a firearm for self-defence should be the right of every British citizen.

    If shopkeepers were allowed to keep guns for self-defence they could have shot those low-life looters during the August Riots.


  • #137
    Batsy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,341 ✭✭✭Batsy


    token101 wrote: »
    Stabbings are usually very personal crimes. It takes a lot more effort and violent intent to stab someone than it does to point and squeeze your finger. You're not going to be able to walk into a built up area and stab 10 people at once unless you're some sort of demented ninja. How many times in the last 10 years has someone walked into a built up area and just started shooting randomly in the US? Countless. When was the last time that happened here? It might have happened in the UK once or twice, but they're notable cases because they are so rare, Dunblayne, Hungerford. Half the ones in the US don't even register anymore.

    The murder rate in the Republic of Ireland is higher than it is in England and Wales (which has the second-lowest murder rate in the EU, with only Germany's being lower. Scotland has the second-highest murder rate in the EU after Finland).

    Also, in 2008, the number of firearm homicides in the Republic of Ireland per 100,000 people was 0.46. Ireland also has the highest murder rate of 10 to 29 year old men in Western Europe.

    In 2008/09, the number of firearm homicides in England and Wales was just 0.1 per 100,000 people.

    When it comes to the chances of being murdered or being shot, you are much safer in England and Wales than you are in Ireland.


  • #138
    greimorm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 96 ✭✭greimorm


    Guns used to be nearly in every household in Ireland back in the day,it was like apart of furniture lol
    I grew up with them in our house in Dublin.
    Would i have one now!I dont need one so no i wouldnt have one.And i thank god i dont need one.Thank god for Ireland being one of safest countries in world.:)


  • #139
    Seachmall
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,041 ✭✭✭Seachmall


    Batsy wrote: »
    When it comes to the chances of being murdered or being shot, you are much safer in England and Wales than you are in Ireland.

    You're safer anywhere in Western Europe than you are in Ireland.

    Although in terms of assault, robbery, burglary, etc. we're pretty decent. It's the whole "murder" thing that gives us a bad image.


  • #140
    Batsy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,341 ✭✭✭Batsy


    Seachmall wrote: »
    You're safer anywhere in Western Europe than you are in Ireland.

    Although in terms of assault, robbery, burglary, etc. we're pretty decent. It's the whole "murder" thing that gives us a bad image.

    Limerick must be bad if it has a higher murder rate than Glasgow.


  • #141
    Dyr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    Hell yes to guns, we've an ageing population and a long term economic crisis, nothing says "f**k off" to thieving bastards trying to rob grannies better than a dose of buckshot :pac:

    I think they were originally banned here due to agrarian violence and the like..de brits not being too fond of that carry on.


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  • #142
    Cass
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,758 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    token101 wrote: »
    I'm glad it's that strict though. I don't want it loosened.
    You will find the majority of legally licensed firearm owners agree that licensing, restrictions, etc are necessaru. They may disapprove of the mathod those laws are implimented (unfairly, etc), but in general they agree with most of it.
    ...... just like they don't about a lot of other minority sports.
    Feisar wrote: »
    Media has no interest in reporting on fringe sports.
    Thats the thing though. Fringe sports, and minority sports. I won't try and baffle with buu**** because i don't have figures, but take into account the number of ISSF (Olympic), pistol, Clay pigeon, long distance , benchrest (smallbore), etc shooters in the country. They all fall under the banner of sports shooting, and we make up a fairly sizable group/community. I would hazard a guess in the region of tens of thousands. Firing at nothing more than targets. Thats far from miority.

    i find the reason they have no interest is because of the stigma attached to guns/firearms in general. Plus look at the editors, etc of the larger news groups. They are anti gun ownership, and allow this bias to control what is, and is not reported.
    xzanti wrote: »
    Never.. I have a child and the amount of stories you hear of teenagers acting the Rambo with their parents' gun and shooting themselves or their friends....
    While i feel terribly for those that have had incidents such as those you described happen in their lives it is down to poor control. I mean as was stated there are very strict laws governing the safe keeping of firearms in a house. To such an extent that An Gardai carry out personal examinations of your security setup before issuing a person with a firearm license. The more guns you have the higher this level of security must be.
    Seachmall wrote: »
    In fairness they're typically due to irresponsible parents storing their weapons irresponsibly.

    If I recall correctly in Ireland you are required to store your firearms and ammo separately under lock.
    Correct.
    Gareth2011 wrote: »
    Its not illegal for my wife to carry knives on her person. .
    Not quite right.
    Seachmall wrote: »
    Interestingly enough it is illegal. If found carrying a knife you are assumed to have committed an offence until you can show you have legitimate reason for the knife and for the type of knife.

    Obviously your wife would be fine but it's interesting to know. When it comes to carrying knives you're, in essence, guilty until proven innocent.
    Pretty much. You need show good reason for having it, and even then if you are "brandishing" it in a threatening manner or way tht would be deemed contrary to public safety you can be charged with an offence under the 1990 Offensive weapons act.
    ScumLord wrote: »
    Damn straight I'd own one, probably shouldn't be let though. Thinking back on drunken madness, I or some I know would more than likely have ended up being shot or shooting someone else by mistake.
    You might not get one.

    Any criminal record/conviction/charge disentitles you from applying or owning a firearm.
    Batsy wrote: »
    If shopkeepers were allowed to keep guns for self-defence they could have shot those low-life looters during the August Riots.
    Afraid i wouldn't agree with that. Insurance will cover damage.

    America has had the 2nd amendment for hundreds of years. Only now do they see the need for tighter cotrols of firearms, and guns. However they are fighting an uphill battle after decades/centuries of such liberal laws.
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  • #143
    Odysseus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,752 ✭✭✭Odysseus


    greimorm wrote: »
    Guns used to be nearly in every household in Ireland back in the day,it was like apart of furniture lol
    I grew up with them in our house in Dublin.
    Would i have one now!I dont need one so no i wouldnt have one.And i thank god i dont need one.Thank god for Ireland being one of safest countries in world.:)

    Ireland being a safe place to live has nothing to do with gun ownership. How many times does it need to said on this thread, you CANNOT POSSESS A FIREARM FOR SELF-DEFENSE IN IRELAND.

    Those of use who possess them do so for sporting reasons or vermin control.


  • #144
    Odysseus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,752 ✭✭✭Odysseus


    Ezridax wrote: »


    Any criminal record/conviction/charge disentitles you from applying or owning a firearm.

    Actual that is incorrect, it depends on the offense, IIRC any offense that carries more than 5 years imprisonment disentitles you. You can have a past criminal record and still be entitled. However, you are inspected even more than a normal applicant, and they want to be sure you have moved on from that life, as a lot of people do.


  • #145
    Cass
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,758 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    Batsy wrote: »
    The murder rate in the Republic of Ireland is higher than it is in England and Wales............
    Also, in 2008, the number of firearm homicides in the Republic of Ireland per 100,000 people was 0.46. Ireland also has the highest murder rate of 10 to 29 year old men in Western Europe.
    .
    How many of those murders were commited using legally held, licensed firearms?
    Now how many were committed using illegally obtained firearms that cannot be liensed here by scumbags?

    As soon as someone in Ireland is shot the media go into overdrive, hyping the story, and exaggerating facts not evident. I mean only a few months ago there was an incident involving a shotgun. The papers lead with a story about "murderous rampage" and showed a picture of a Glock handgun. Even the story was about a shotgun.

    We are an easy "minority" to pick on. As we have no right to firearms we rely on the "good grac" of the DoJ/An Gardai. As such any outspoken views or legal challenges, whether successful or not, can be easily flipped with the stroke of a minister's pen or introduction of new legislation to counter any advancment made.

    When you consider the amount of money, jobs, etc that firearms, firearm related sports, etc create i am annoyed/surprsed it is not encouraged more, and helped to expand. Look at the recent Creedmoor cup held in the MNSCI last July. An international competition first held over 140 years ago between Ireland, and the USA. Thats older than most any other sport including soccer, etc.

    Nothing reported on it. It has community aswell as political possibilities, and with the NRA in the US having such a strong political influence/lobby group it could help to build bridges, and create new opportunites across all sections of communities and not just shooting.
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  • #146
    Cass
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,758 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    Odysseus wrote: »
    Actual that is incorrect, .......
    I'm not getting into semantics, but to avoid having to explain all the legal issues it sums it up nicely to say that if you have a habit of robbing banks, assaulting people, etc you might aswell forget about owning a LEGALLY held firearm.

    And in some instances quite rightly so. Some people simply should not have a firearm.
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  • #147
    xzanti
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 10,463 Mod ✭✭✭✭xzanti


    Seachmall wrote: »
    In fairness they're typically due to irresponsible parents storing their weapons irresponsibly.

    True enough.. but teenage boys can be very resourceful.. if they're hell bent on finding the key, or busting into wherever it's stored to impress their friends.. You better believe they'll get it..

    Nothing could convince me that it's 100% safe to own a firearm when you have children.


  • #148
    greimorm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 96 ✭✭greimorm


    Odysseus wrote: »
    Ireland being a safe place to live has nothing to do with gun ownership. How many times does it need to said on this thread, you CANNOT POSSESS A FIREARM FOR SELF-DEFENSE IN IRELAND.

    Those of use who possess them do so for sporting reasons or vermin control.
    Who said it was for safety i was condoning it,just because i wrote it in meaning i dont need one for safety so i wouldn't have one.But i grew up with them in our house as it was apart of the Irish way.They used it for hunting.Did i say i had a problem with people who have for farming and hunting?

    I said that merely because of people saying Ireland was dangerous.Which it is not.


  • #149
    Manic Moran
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,884 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    Ezridax wrote: »
    Thats the thing though. Fringe sports, and minority sports. I won't try and baffle with buu**** because i don't have figures, but take into account the number of ISSF (Olympic), pistol, Clay pigeon, long distance , benchrest (smallbore), etc shooters in the country. They all fall under the banner of sports shooting, and we make up a fairly sizable group/community. I would hazard a guess in the region of tens of thousands. Firing at nothing more than targets. Thats far from miority.

    I seem to recall reading that world-wide, recreational shooting is the third most popular sport in terms of persons participating (after football and running). Hardly a fringe sport, just one that isn't publicised much. I honestly wouldn't be surprised to discover that more people actively participate in recreational shooting activities in Europe than in football which, considering the various disciplines from Biathalon to pheasant hunting to IPSC, combined with the fact that you can go do it on a whim without arranging 21 of your friends to show up, seems quite reasonable. Only fishing would come close. Ireland has forgotten its old gun culture, it used to be the world leader in the sport. Doesn't mean that the rest of the world has.
    We have one of, if not the, strictest gun laws in the world. More so than Canada, but their laws are very close to ours

    You might want to check up on that. In some ways, my neighbours to the Great White North have looser gun laws than I am subject to here in California. They can own firearms I can't, and attempts at gun registration have been expensive failures which the government is (finally) giving up on.

    NTM


  • #150
    Dyr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    xzanti wrote: »
    True enough.. but teenage boys can be very resourceful.. if they're hell bent on finding the key, or busting into wherever it's stored to impress their friends.. You better believe they'll get it..

    Nothing could convince me that it's 100% safe to own a firearm when you have children.

    better start banning those cars too so....


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  • #151
    Feisar
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,905 ✭✭✭Feisar


    Ezridax wrote: »
    Thats the thing though. Fringe sports, and minority sports. I won't try and baffle with buu**** because i don't have figures, but take into account the number of ISSF (Olympic), pistol, Clay pigeon, long distance , benchrest (smallbore), etc shooters in the country. They all fall under the banner of sports shooting, and we make up a fairly sizable group/community. I would hazard a guess in the region of tens of thousands. Firing at nothing more than targets. Thats far from miority.

    I agree with what your saying but from my little knowledge of the "community" there's an "every man for himself" mentality.

    Were the clay pigeon lads rowing in with the handgun lads when the restrictions came in?

    The community is fairly fragmented to say the least with everyone looking to their own nest.

    First they came for the socialists...



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