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Unions Demand Return Of Teachers Allowances

24567…18

Comments

  • #32
    JohnK
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,775 ✭✭✭JohnK


    Sin1981 wrote: »
    Having a MSc or PhD bears no reflection on how well you can teach. the ability to teach is mostly learned/taught during the teacher training year. A higher degrees means you have more knowledge in your subject, not better able to teach.
    Well said. No matter how well you know a particular subject if you cant pass on that knowledge you're going to be useless as a teacher and I think its probably safe to say we've all encountered teachers like that who give the whole profession a bad name.


  • #33
    micropig
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,366 ✭✭✭micropig


    Just thought I link this as well for reference

    Public & Private Sector Weekly Earnings Details and Statistics

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055750520


  • #34
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    louiseok01 wrote: »
    I think it is discriminatory against new teachers. Cuts should apply to all teaching staff. As it stands new teachers will receive 18% less than other teachers for doing the same job. This is unjust. New teachers are being picked on again because the gov know that they do not have a voice. They already took a 10% salary reduction in Jan and now this...its crazy. .

    Existing teachers like all public servants are protected by the CPA. Did you see these unions protecting new teachers back when they negotiated the CPA? Hell no.


  • #35
    Seachmall
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,041 ✭✭✭Seachmall


    Southeast1 wrote: »
    Also what do they think is an acceptable weekly wage for ateacher with lets say 10 years experience?

    Pay increases should not be based solely on experience but on effectiveness.

    I'm sure everybody here can recall a crap teacher with 15+ years experience and a great teacher with less than five.


  • #36
    micropig
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,366 ✭✭✭micropig


    Southeast1 wrote: »
    People also seem to forget that a great many teachers starting out do not get full teaching hours. Therefore they could easily be earning 3/4 or 1/2 of €28,000 and still be in school for the full day, every day. Take a pension levy out of that and you are on almost nothing.

    To me it is nothing short of age discrimination.

    Also I note that nobody answered my question. What do they consider to be an acceptable weekly wage for teachers starting out?
    And also what is acceptable after 10 years?

    Very true about getting the full time hours unfortunetly:(


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  • #37
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,808 ✭✭✭✭smash


    Freddie59 wrote: »
    The Teachers' Union of Ireland has called for the immediate reversal of a Government decision to suspend the payment of allowances to new teachers.

    The Teachers' Union of Ireland should be told to go fcuk themselves. In the private sector, you get paid based on performance. It should be the same for them.


  • #38
    jester77
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,264 ✭✭✭✭jester77


    louiseok01 wrote: »
    I think it is discriminatory against new teachers. Cuts should apply to all teaching staff. As it stands new teachers will receive 18% less than other teachers for doing the same job. This is unjust. New teachers are being picked on again because the gov know that they do not have a voice. They already took a 10% salary reduction in Jan and now this...its crazy.
    I did a masters and it cost 15, ooo euro. People will not do MAs etc if they do not receive some incentive for doing it.

    Is furthering your education and employment prospects not enough of a reason to do a Masters? If you are only doing it for the money then you are doing it for the wrong reason and you should let someone else take that place.


  • #39
    I Heart Internet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,678 ✭✭✭I Heart Internet


    Odysseus wrote: »
    In the private sector you are generally better paid the higher educated you are.

    This might be through on a broad, statistical level but I have never, ever, ever seen a job advert or heard about a job in the private sector where having a particular level of education has automatically got you a higher salary. As someone else said here it tends to be based on experience and successful performance - as it should be.

    As someone who has a very close relative hoping to graduate as a teacher in the next coupel of years I applaud the Govt for this decision.

    The allowances are to be reviewed and there are some (such as the ability to teach in Irish) that are well worth retaining imo.

    While acknowledging the good work most teachers do and knowing that the plural of anecdote isn't data - my experience of teachers in my own circle of friends and family is that they are underworked and very likely to pop up on Facebook at 4.15 on a Tuesday afternoon saying something along the lines of "Thank God that day is over!!"


  • #40
    Chuck Stone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,029 ✭✭✭✭Chuck Stone


    finlma wrote: »
    People who study for 4 years and get a degree deserve to be rewarded as a qualified professional. If you did thiis then you were underpaid.

    Bullshit.

    They deserve to get rewarded for performance as educators - not because of qualification.

    I know a couple of teachers personally who are worth a multiple of the money they get for the time and care they put into the job.

    I've also been 'taught' by teachers who should never have lasted a month in job and are still driving in and out of the school I went to. Well paid and good conditions for decades of utter incompetence and affecting the later life opportunities their 'students'.

    Sort that **** out and then we can start having a serious conversation.


  • #41
    micropig
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,366 ✭✭✭micropig


    AVERAGE wages of teachers / week in 2008 €946.47

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055750520


    Remember average, some will earn more/less


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  • #42
    ejmaztec
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,369 ✭✭✭✭ejmaztec


    finlma wrote: »
    Everyone got the same CAO form. Maybe some couldn't get the required high number of points to become a teacher. Complaining about the summer holidays smacks of bitterness.

    Do I get a gold star if I can guess what you do for a living?:P


  • #43
    Southeast1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28 ✭Southeast1


    Micropig. Your link to the figures on earnings only goes as far as 2008. Since the earnings in the education sector have gone down by over 15 percent.

    Anyway this thread is about new teachers whose salary's are also 10% less than those who started pre 2011, who start on a lower point of the scale, have to pay a pension levy for a different scheme to other workers and who now are having allowances removed.

    Teachers benefit far more from allowances than other PS workers and over the years they have come to be seen as core pay. Rightly or wrongly this is the case. For most teachers removal of allowances would amount to 5,000 or more out of the gross salary.

    Finally 28000 divided by 52 wks is a salary of €538 before any deductions.
    Far, far less than the figures suggested by your table which takes averages from the higher points on the salary scales that take teachers oveer 25 yr to reach.


  • #44
    micropig
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,366 ✭✭✭micropig


    ejmaztec wrote: »
    Do I get a gold star if I can guess what you do for a living?:P

    No but I'll give you a gold star if you guess what I do;)


  • #45
    Geuze
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,283 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    Existing teachers took 2 pay cuts.

    New teachers face 4 pay cuts.

    The pain is not being spread evenly.


  • #46
    micropig
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,366 ✭✭✭micropig


    Southeast1 wrote: »
    Micropig. Your link to the figures on earnings only goes as far as 2008. Since the earnings in the education sector have gone down by over 15 percent.

    Anyway this thread is about new teachers whose salary's are also 10% less than those who started pre 2011, who start on a lower point of the scale, have to pay a pension levy for a different scheme to other workers and who now are having allowances removed.

    Teachers benefit far more from allowances than other PS workers and over the years they have come to be seen as core pay. Rightly or wrongly this is the case. For most teachers removal of allowances would amount to 5,000 or more out of the gross salary.

    Finally 28000 divided by 52 wks is a salary of €538 before any deductions.
    Far, far less than the figures suggested by your table which takes averages from the higher points on the salary scales that take teachers oveer 25 yr to reach.


    These figures suit better? Teacher appointed after Jan2011

    http://www.asti.ie/pay-and-conditions/pay/salary-scale/salary-scale-for-teachers-appointed-after-january-2011/


    http://www.asti.ie/pay-and-conditions/pay/qualification-allowances/


    Can you justify the length of the holidays?


  • #47
    Sin1981
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 181 ✭✭Sin1981


    ...to anyone who feels that people are unfair to teachers etc, remember that if they are complaining about the pay and conditions of public service employees, it's probably not because they are jealous. it's because, if they are a tax payer themselves, then they are entitled to have a say on how public funds are spent given that we are borrowing from outside to pay to run the country. so please please stop playing the 'you're just jealous card'! :(


  • #48
    P.C.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,765 ✭✭✭P.C.


    Southeast1 wrote: »
    People also seem to forget that a great many teachers starting out do not get full teaching hours. Therefore they could easily be earning 3/4 or 1/2 of €28,000 and still be in school for the full day, every day. Take a pension levy out of that and you are on almost nothing.

    To me it is nothing short of age discrimination.

    Also I note that nobody answered my question. What do they consider to be an acceptable weekly wage for teachers starting out?
    And also what is acceptable after 10 years?

    Acceptable wage for teachers starting out - about €400 a week.

    From there, the increases should be based on performance.


  • #49
    I Heart Internet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,678 ✭✭✭I Heart Internet


    Southeast1 wrote: »
    Finally 28000 divided by 52 wks is a salary of €538 before any deductions.

    Now class, does anyone know why the above calculation is flawed. I'll give you a clue, one reason ryhmes with Lune, Luly and Laugust. And the other one rhymes with - can't be fired unless you steal a child.


  • #50
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,808 ✭✭✭✭smash


    A teacher I knew a few years ago was complaining about her wages being cut. She was on over 60k, did around 15 hours a week and had a 2nd job cash in hand at a drama school. She was able to go out 4/5 times a month and put away 550 a month into her savings. She complained about not being able to upgrade her 2yr old car and not having enough disposable income to buy from the latest stock rails in designer shops. God forbid she'd have to ever go to an outlet store to buy clothes either, because that's out of fashion!

    I also have 3 family members who are teachers earning a healthy salary and taking multiple holidays abroad throughout the year.


  • #51
    P.C.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,765 ✭✭✭P.C.


    Geuze wrote: »
    Existing teachers took 2 pay cuts.

    New teachers face 4 pay cuts.

    The pain is not being spread evenly.

    New teachers are not facing any 'cuts'.
    New teachers are starting on different contracts to the existing teachers.

    These new contracts should have been introduced a few years ago.
    I am glad they are finally here.

    There will be a lot more new contracts in the public sector over the next few years.


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  • #52
    Mr Benevolent
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,433 ✭✭✭✭Mr Benevolent


    Odysseus wrote: »
    I agree with the teachers, I work for the HSE I am more qualified than most of the other therapists I work with. I put in the extra work to train to a higher degree, so I think that should be reflected in my wages.

    In the private sector you are generally better paid the higher educated you are. I hope to get the cash to pay for a PhD, when I do so my clients will benefit, the service I work for will benefit, but personally within my job I won't. Should that be the the case?

    If you want better trained people you have to pay for it.

    Yes, but a better educated therapist is usually better at their job. The same doesn't necessarily follow for a teacher.


  • #53
    Southeast1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28 ✭Southeast1


    400 a week!!!
    The dole is nearly 200, plus rent allowance, medical card and a myriad of other benefits.

    I really think people really need to ask themselves what sort of people do we want educating our children. If you pay that sort of money, high calibre people will not be attracted to teaching, and those that are will leave once they realise they cant make a career at it.

    Also, how do you assess what a teacher's performance is? How can you compare different types of schools, different level of pupils, differing family situations. Do you base it solely on exam results or what else would you have in mind?


  • #54
    ejmaztec
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,369 ✭✭✭✭ejmaztec


    micropig wrote: »
    No but I'll give you a gold star if you guess what I do;)

    You train miniature mutant pigs to run around bonsai trees in model villages.


  • #55
    cursai
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,915 ✭✭✭cursai


    P.C. wrote: »
    Acceptable wage for teachers starting out - about €400 a week.

    From there, the increases should be based on performance.

    Thats silly and ridiculous to propose such a low wage.. Petrol to work could cost €60 a week or more or less. Other costs of working could bring that down again.
    The Social Welfare is €190 for Chri4ts sake. Why would they work for this little.


  • #56
    Naomi00
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 670 ✭✭✭Naomi00


    From reading some of the posts in this thread most of the people here are completely out of touch with this topic and have no idea what they're talking about. The whole thing about 'best paid job with loads of holidays' etc from the first page is total rubbish.

    I'm in leaving cert, and this year we have a few new teachers. Because of the Croke Park agreement, cutbacks etc you can't hire new teachers on a proper contract. They're only working part-time in terms of pay, but still are expected to work as hard as the teachers who've been there for 20 years. They don't get paid a lot as it is, so taking allowances from them as well is not fair.

    We have some really useless teachers who've been teaching for way too long and can't be bothered to put any effort in at all. Taking money from teachers who are actually doing their job isn't fair really.

    Instead of things like this it's about time they cut TD's pay in half because they earn way too much and forget what their job actually is.


  • #57
    Boulevardier
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,388 ✭✭✭Boulevardier


    I think these allowances are outdated and should be scrapped because people should be paid the same for doing the same work.

    However, by that same token, I strongly object to new teachers being paid lesss than existing teachers for doing the same work.

    The government are following a right-wing agenda in which a gulf is allowed to open up between existing public service staff and new staff. This is not only divisive, it is an implicit bribe to existing staff to keep quiet and not rock the boat.


  • #58
    micropig
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,366 ✭✭✭micropig


    New salary scales

    The new salary scale reduces salary increments and allowances by 10%. In addition, new entrants to teaching will start on the first point of the scale. Previously teachers would begin on the third point of the scale. This represents an overall reduction in pay of 15% for new entrants.

    Click here to view the new salary scales for new entrants

    Not sure why they used to start at point 3. This may be just re-adjusting back to normal levels- ie start at point 1

    Application of new pay rates
    3. The 10% reduction in pay applies to basic pay, allowances and the supervision
    and substitution payment    .
    (a) Basic Pay:
    The 10% reduction applies to basic pay on all points of the incremental
    salary scale. Daily and hourly rates for casual and non-casual teachers
    in the primary sector and hourly rates for casual and non-casual parttime teachers in the post-primary sector have also been reduced. The
    revised rates are set out in an Appendix to this Circular and can be
    accessed by clicking here.
    (b) Allowances:
    The 10% reduction also applies to all allowances with the exception of
    promotional allowances; ie special duties, assistant principal, deputy
    principal and principal allowances.


    Can these allowances be broken down by a teacher please?
    a) lunch time supervision? Why can't eat you lunch in the next planning class you have that day? Planning should be at least done a week in advance (UK standard practice)



    b)......



    http://www.asti.ie/uploads/media/0040-2011_New_Pay_Scales_for_New_Appointees_to_Teaching_in_2011.pdf


  • #59
    jester77
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,264 ✭✭✭✭jester77


    cursai wrote: »
    Thats silly and ridiculous to propose such a low wage.. Petrol to work could cost €60 a week or more or less. Other costs of working could bring that down again.
    The Social Welfare is €190 for Chri4ts sake. Why would they work for this little.

    Social welfare is way too high and why does everyone use it as a barometer?

    Plus, why the hell would a teacher be paying €60 a week in petrol :eek: Any sane person would get accommodation close to where they are working


  • #60
    Southeast1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28 ✭Southeast1


    People say this discussion is not based on begrudgery but yet ever second post is about the lifestyles and holiday entitlements of teachers, instead of what is supposed to be about. The effect of these cuts on new teachers which ultimately will affect the quality of education in Irish schools for years to come.

    On the subject of holidays. Can anyone actually show me any evidence to suggest that a shortening of the school year will have any positive impact on the quality of education in Ireland?


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  • #61
    micropig
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,366 ✭✭✭micropig


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    Now class, does anyone know why the above calculation is flawed. I'll give you a clue, one reason ryhmes with Lune, Luly and Laugust. And the other one rhymes with - can't be fired unless you steal a child.

    sssh you'll cause a riot :p

    Only teachers know about that


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