The future of Airports in ireland

RobitTV · 17-01-2012 11:08pm #1

Today, waterford airport has basically survived after Flybe airline will be setting up there.

Since Galway and sligo have closed, what about the other regional airports still remaining?

What should be done to fix our airports for such a small population of 4 million on a small island?

The goverment has also promised funding for some regional airports, whats the future and what needs to be done?

bk · 18-01-2012 12:46am

Nothing needs to be done.

We have far too many airports for the size of our country. We really don't need more then the three international airports, which are now well connected by high quality road network.

As for the rest, they can either survive on their own two feet or close down.

18-01-2012 2:39am

bk wrote: »

Nothing needs to be done.

We have far too many airports for the size of our country. We really don't need more then the three international airports, which are now well connected by high quality road network.

As for the rest, they can either survive on their own two feet or close down.

Knock goes to 31 different international destinations and makes a profit(Probably more than shannon). Its provides a massive service for people in the midlands north west and west. You think it should be shut down ?

Carawaystick · 18-01-2012 3:04am

bk wrote: »

We really don't need more then the three international airports, which are now well connected by high quality road network.

The high quality road connection from SNN to ORK is via Port Laoise which makes it less than High Quality. The direct connection via Buttevant is not high quality....

bk · 18-01-2012 4:07am

Deleted User wrote: »

Knock goes to 31 different international destinations and makes a profit(Probably more than shannon). Its provides a massive service for people in the midlands north west and west. You think it should be shut down ?

If I'm not mistaken, Knock now operates with no government subsidy (however in the past it did receive significant capital grants).

If it can continue to operate successfully without operating subsidy or further capital grants, then fair play to it, it should remain open of course.

The same with any of the other Airports such as Waterford. However outside of the main three they aren't materially important to the Irish economy any more and shouldn't receive any subsidy or grants.

Carawaystick wrote: »

The high quality road connection from SNN to ORK is via Port Laoise which makes it less than High Quality. The direct connection via Buttevant is not high quality....

Who would travel from SNN to ORK? They are both airports after all?

What I meant is that most of the country is now within a safe and comfortable 3 hour drive from Dublin airport and that ORK and SNN serve their respective areas pretty well.

I think it would be very safe to say that 90% of the Irish population is now within a one hour drive of DUB or ORK or SNN.

It seems it is still taking a long time to sink into peoples heads how much the new motorway network has transformed Ireland and the impact it will have on lots of things such as rail and airports.

In the past the intercity roads were very bad, taking a long time to travel on and dangerous. This made intercity rail and local airports very attractive. Intercity rail as it was faster, safer and more comfortable. Local airports as you didn't want to travel for hours on unsafe roads to get to distant airports.

Now with the new motorway network, it is now often cheaper and much faster to drive then take the train and the distances are close enough between DUB and most places in Ireland that many people will take the 2 to 3 hour drive in either direction for a cheaper plane ticket or more flying options.

This will have a big effect on the viability of intercity rail, rail freight, airports and maybe even shipping ports.

Sponge Bob · 18-01-2012 1:20pm

Knock is welcome to survive commercially. If it fails to do so it should shut like any other failing company.

Dr. Kenneth Noisewater · 18-01-2012 1:39pm

The geographical spread of DUB ORK and SNN leaves the North West of the country a long long way from the nearest Airport if you take Knock out of the equation. Better infrastructure (namely motorways) has benefitted solely those who live in regions already served by DUB ORK and SNN. There is not a single stretch of motorway in counties Mayo, Sligo, Leitrim, Donegal, Longford, or in most of Roscommon. Draw a line west to east from Galway city to Dublin and you'll see a serious infrastructural defecit to the north of the line.

The region has been neglected enough without taking away it's airport. Fine, shut down the smaller regional airports if they can't sustain themselves, but I believe Knock should be kept open.

Sponge Bob · 18-01-2012 1:52pm

Shannon is at risk from being mothballed and taken over by the IAA direct as an emergency landing airport (not a commercial airport) because it has an insane cost stack and no business to support it. That would leave K-Nock ORK and DUB...which is quite enough.

bk · 18-01-2012 2:27pm

deccurley wrote: »

There is not a single stretch of motorway in counties Mayo, Sligo, Leitrim, Donegal, Longford, or in most of Roscommon.

Total population is 428,000 people, or less then 10% of the population of Ireland (7% of the island of Ireland).

You can't expect an area with such a small and dispersed population to get airports and motorways. It just isn't going to happen.

Anyway some of the above aren't really all that far from DUB, SNN and Derry. While they may not have motorway the entire way, they have motorway well over half the journey and the other roads aren't particularly bad, not for the numbers living there.

As SB says above, perhaps it would be better to close SNN and use Knock instead.

dubhthach · 18-01-2012 3:18pm

bk wrote: »

Total population is 428,000 people, or less then 10% of the population of Ireland (7% of the island of Ireland).

You can't expect an area with such a small and dispersed population to get airports and motorways. It just isn't going to happen.

Anyway some of the above aren't really all that far from DUB, SNN and Derry. While they may not have motorway the entire way, they have motorway well over half the journey and the other roads aren't particularly bad, not for the numbers living there.

As SB says above, perhaps it would be better to close SNN and use Knock instead.

well 2+2 on the rest of the parts of N4 to Sligo would help if ye ask me. That and you would hope that M17/M18 Gort-Tuam would help. Make getting to Knock from Galway easier anyways let alone SNN.

dowlingm · 18-01-2012 4:36pm

How to save Shannon in one easy step:

Close Baldonnel, move almost all operations to Shannon with two "outposts" at the Curragh for Army/Garda ops and at DUB for MATS.

For chrissakes it's already a military operation - just not the Irish military

18-01-2012 9:31pm

bk wrote: »

I think it would be very safe to say that 90% of the Irish population is now within a one hour drive of DUB or ORK or SNN.

Yeah all counties except North Galway, MAYO, SLIGO, Roscommon, Donegal, Longford, Cavan, Fermanagh, Leitrim. Should just put a fence around them !!!

You forget that the Motorways to the west stop in Mullingar and the motorways going north stop in Gort.

You should travel the N5 west and see why it takes 4 hours to go to Dublin from Mayo. The N5 through Roscommon is easily the worst Primary road in the country. On the N17 You pass 9 through towns and villages just to go from Claremorris to Gort alone. A jouney that takes two hours on a Friday afternoon would be cut by more than half with a motorway If the last treasonous government only spent 10% of what was spent in other regions we would not have the roads of third world standard. If they for a start spent the funding from Europe that was meant for the BMW area in the BMW it would of been a start.

Recently we had the three biggest employers in Mayo , Baxter Hollister and Allergan making appeals to Government to improve the N5 as an unacceptable amount of product was been damaged directly related to the standard of the road it was been transported on.

Finish the Atlantic corridor to Sligo at least, Finish the N5 motorway to Longford, add dual carriageways or impovements from there. Improve the electricity Grid, Then you get the investment that brings the workers that brings the justification for these improvements in the first place. Forget about the trains and WRC, that should never of been started. A half decent road structure and the people of the BMW area would be more than happy.

18-01-2012 9:40pm

bk wrote: »

Total population is 428,000 people, or less then 10% of the population of Ireland (7% of the island of Ireland).

You can't expect an area with such a small and dispersed population to get airports and motorways. It just isn't going to happen.

Anyway some of the above aren't really all that far from DUB, SNN and Derry. While they may not have motorway the entire way, they have motorway well over half the journey and the other roads aren't particularly bad, not for the numbers living there.

As SB says above, perhaps it would be better to close SNN and use Knock instead.

Why do you think it has such a small population ? Precisely because there is no infrastructure there. We can't even get factories that consume large power in the west because of the third world grid we have here.

Secondly its more like 10% of these journeys that would have motorways.

Maybe if the infrastructure gets bad enough and enough people leave this region, you could encourage closing the roads. Of course open them up again for you coming down on your holidays.

Talk about cart before the horse !!!:mad:

Maybe Mayo CC should not of bothered repairing the bridge to Achill, let them starve after all they only make up a small percentage of the county. Let lennane get washed away next time, sure why would they be living out there in the first place. As for the Gas and Oil and windfarms let the workers walk to those places or use a bicycle.............They could bring all the construction parts in by canoe.

Fo Real · 18-01-2012 11:26pm

I have to laugh at MayoMaffia's post above me. Every sentence reeks with bitterness. Remove that rather large chip from your shoulder pal and realise that Dublin, Cork and the other significant urban centres around the country are the powerhouses of the economy. Therefore they justify investment in infrastructure. You got your WRC. It is a failure and a drain on MY taxes.

Achill island deserves zero investment due to the minuscule tax revenue it generates. In fact, it's residents probably only survive on government subsidies like the rest of the Gaeltacht. Evacuate all the tiny islands off our coast, it's the 21st century ffs. You can't expect high speed broadband and a light rail system if you live on a uninhabitable rock in the mid-Atlantic.

dubhthach · 18-01-2012 11:43pm

Mod

Folks stay on topic. I don't see how the above has anything to do with Airports. Likewise please read the charter, flaming isn't allowed. I won't have any problems locking the thread and handing out infractions if this sort of muppetary continues.

19-01-2012 12:56am

Fo Real wrote: »

I have to laugh at MayoMaffia's post above me. Every sentence reeks with bitterness. Remove that rather large chip from your shoulder pal and realise that Dublin, Cork and the other significant urban centres around the country are the powerhouses of the economy. Therefore they justify investment in infrastructure. You got your WRC. It is a failure and a drain on MY taxes.

Achill island deserves zero investment due to the minuscule tax revenue it generates. In fact, it's residents probably only survive on government subsidies like the rest of the Gaeltacht. Evacuate all the tiny islands off our coast, it's the 21st century ffs. You can't expect high speed broadband and a light rail system if you live on a uninhabitable rock in the mid-Atlantic.

You do realise that the WRC goes no further north than Galway. Now if you had a clue about geography or ever left the surroundings of TCD you would know that Galway isn't even half way up the country. So calling a track between limerick and galway a WRC is a joke.

I have always said that the WRC is a non starter, is not needed and only benefits pensioners on free travel. I also believe that DU and Metro North should go ahead. But to have those state that whole sections of the country should be devoid of infrastructure because they have lower population levels, when its the lack of infrastructure thats causing those low population levels is foolish.

People in this area do pay taxes also, the least they can expect is a half decent road to travel. Obviously begrudgers like your self could not be expected to understand that as your probably travel to school in the LUAS or other public transport subsidized with MY taxes. .:eek:

A decent road structure would put Knock Airport within 1 hour of Sligo, Galway, Athlone, Longford, Leitrim, Fermanagh, west Cavan, Roscommon, Mayo.

I wonder would you change your mind about Achill if like Belmullet they were sitting on several billion worth of Oil and Gas. You have whole lot of growing up to do.:D:D:p

bk · 19-01-2012 9:54am

mayomaffia I agree other parts of the country deserve investment.

However the reality of the situation is that Ireland will likely follow the rest of Europe with people leaving rural areas and moving to urban areas.

For instance in France over 90% of people live in urban areas. In Ireland it is only 65%.

But that isn't sustainable. You will simply never be able to deliver an adequate level of infrastructure to such a rural and widely dispersed population.

Fo Real · 19-01-2012 1:46pm

Deleted User wrote: »

..... you probably travel to school in the LUAS or other public transport subsidized with MY taxes...

Wrong in so many ways.
1. The Luas is run by a private company and therefore doesn't receive state financial support, unlike your WRC.

2. The Luas actually makes a profit, so even if it was state-owned, it wouldn't require government subsidies. This is what happens when infrastructure is built in areas with sufficient population levels. And Dublin isn't even densely populated compared to other European cities.

Face the facts. The West of Ireland simply doesn't have the population levels to warrant the investment in infrastructure Dublin gets. I laughed when the idea of a Galway-Luas was floated a few years ago before being quietly dropped. Even Cromwell didn't want the West of Ireland...I believe he referred to it as comparable to "hell".

Dr. Kenneth Noisewater · 19-01-2012 4:16pm

Fo Real wrote: »

Face the facts. The West of Ireland simply doesn't have the population levels to warrant the investment in infrastructure Dublin gets. I laughed when the idea of a Galway-Luas was floated a few years ago before being quietly dropped. Even Cromwell didn't want the West of Ireland...I believe he referred to it as comparable to "hell".

Are you just trolling? Because your post absolutely drips of ignorance, bordering on contempt for those in the west. Yeah, so the "GLUAS" was never really a runner, but if you tried to get from Knocknacarra (west Galway suburbs) to the city centre in rush hour, you'd realise the idea is borne from the same frustration that motorists in Dublin have to suffer. And we're not looking for the same level of infrastructural investment as Dublin gets, just our fair share. The N5 and N4 are in atrocious condition in parts.

As has been mentioned, maybe SNN could close instead of Knock, Munster doesn't need 2 airports.

monument · 19-01-2012 4:27pm

Deleted User wrote: »

A decent road structure would put Knock Airport within 1 hour of Sligo, Galway, Athlone, Longford, Leitrim, Fermanagh, west Cavan, Roscommon, Mayo.

Athlone is just 1h 20mins to Dublin Airport!

The main population centres in Sligo, Galway, Mayo, Longford, Roscommon, and Leitrim are already all within or just a bit over one hour from Knock Airport, or whatever they are calling it these days. The population of west Cavan is tiny, and, give its size, it isn't too far from Knock or Dublin.

I don't know what on earth you think Fermanagh has to do with Knock given it is in Northern Ireland, and Enniskillen only is 1.5 hours from Belfast and 2 hours from Dublin Airport.

Deleted User wrote: »

I wonder would you change your mind about Achill if like Belmullet they were sitting on several billion worth of Oil and Gas. You have whole lot of growing up to do.:D:D:p

You don't need better roads to take gas or oil out.

More seriously: Revenues to the state is questionable given the refusal of governments to get better deals or put higher taxes on exploration.

dowlingm · 19-01-2012 5:31pm

Folks

No way NOC closes on Inda's watch - it would be a personal disaster for him. Why even discuss it?

19-01-2012 6:46pm

monument wrote: »

I don't know what on earth you think Fermanagh has to do with Knock given it is in Northern Ireland, and Enniskillen only is 1.5 hours from Belfast and 2 hours from Dublin Airport.

Surely If Donegal people are expected to use Derry, then Fermanagh people are just as entitled to be using Knock airport.;) Enniskillen is much much closer to Knock its just a shocking road to travel, good for car rallies maybe. You really are risking your life on that road if you travel over 40 mph.

robd · 20-01-2012 1:49pm

Deleted User wrote: »

You do realise that the WRC goes no further north than Galway. Now if you had a clue about geography or ever left the surroundings of TCD you would know that Galway isn't even half way up the country. So calling a track between limerick and galway a WRC is a joke.

I have always said that the WRC is a non starter, is not needed and only benefits pensioners on free travel. I also believe that DU and Metro North should go ahead. But to have those state that whole sections of the country should be devoid of infrastructure because they have lower population levels, when its the lack of infrastructure thats causing those low population levels is foolish.

People in this area do pay taxes also, the least they can expect is a half decent road to travel. Obviously begrudgers like your self could not be expected to understand that as your probably travel to school in the LUAS or other public transport subsidized with MY taxes. .:eek:

A decent road structure would put Knock Airport within 1 hour of Sligo, Galway, Athlone, Longford, Leitrim, Fermanagh, west Cavan, Roscommon, Mayo.

I wonder would you change your mind about Achill if like Belmullet they were sitting on several billion worth of Oil and Gas. You have whole lot of growing up to do.:D:D:p

Ah Mayo. The 3rd largest county on the island of Ireland and 31st in terms of population density. Pretty much the lowest population density area in Europe. 130,552 people or 23.3 per km2.

With a few to conservation, we should really persevere its beauty and ruralness. I'd prefer we resurfaced the roads to a decent standard and fixed/maintained what needs to be. But we shouldn't be widening them or building railways or partaking in other large industrial projects.

At the end of the day it's about one project versus the other. Mayo getting new infrastructure will likely come at the expense of Galway or Limerick.

dowlingm · 20-01-2012 4:23pm

If you asked a foreigner to look at a map of Mayo and ask "where is the primary town of Mayo", they would probably say Claremorris - after all it used to have four railway lines converging as well as the N17 and N60. It's where Knock Airport should have been put and probably GMIT too. Instead the economic activity of Mayo is divvied up between Ballina, Castlebar, Westport and Claremorris and the airport is cocked out east of all of them! It's like the county is a microcosm of the so-called Spatial Strategy/Decentralisation!

unit 1 · 21-01-2012 9:41pm

I really love the way some people, probably myself included, subdivide the country to suit their arguments.
An imaginary line from dublin to galway, above/below
Donegal included with mayo galway etc when its in ulster
Bmw "regions"
"Munster" does not need 2 airports
Fermanagh included with mayo galway donegal etc
Gaeltachts
"The west"
The eastern seaboard

My point exactly.
Unless you can have a uniform acceptance of regionl borders or boundaries then lines will always be shifted to suit particular arguaments, but I would imagine given our political structure in this country (constituencies) and clientelism this would be very difficult to achieve. This is probably why a move to all island structures for some things does make sense, eg fire service, water and I'm sure many more.

Richard · 22-01-2012 5:00pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Surely If Donegal people are expected to use Derry, then Fermanagh people are just as entitled to be using Knock airport.;) Enniskillen is much much closer to Knock its just a shocking road to travel, good for car rallies maybe. You really are risking your life on that road if you travel over 40 mph.

The Fermanagh people are entitled to use Knock airport, it's just that they're not entitled to expect the Irish govt to build better roads to get them there.

dowlingm · 22-01-2012 7:29pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Surely If Donegal people are expected to use Derry, then Fermanagh people are just as entitled to be using Knock airport.;) Enniskillen is much much closer to Knock

Google Maps says otherwise. Both the recommended route (68mi vs 75.6mi) and the walking route (59.5mi vs 69.4mi) have NOC further from Enniskillen than LDY

L1011 · 22-01-2012 8:22pm

Enniskillen Airport (ENK) has had commercial flights in the past

22-01-2012 8:30pm

dowlingm wrote: »

Google Maps says otherwise. Both the recommended route (68mi vs 75.6mi) and the walking route (59.5mi vs 69.4mi) have NOC further from Enniskillen than LDY

If you read back you'll see i was talking about Enniskillen been closer to Knock than Belfast. :rolleyes:

If they complete the A4 up there and its linked to the proposed atlantic corridor, you are looking at less than an hours drive.

We should be looking at an all island infrastructure as there is a good chance in twenty years there will be no border there.

dubhthach · 22-01-2012 8:45pm

Deleted User wrote: »

If you read back you'll see i was talking about Enniskillen been closer to Knock than Belfast. :rolleyes:

When I stick Enniskillen to Belfast International (Aldergrove) into Google maps it tells me the distance is 126km, big chunk of this is along decent quality road (motorway). When I do the same for knock the distance comes at 122km this is going via Sligo.

If you ask me given better quality road and flight selection Belfast International is the better choice for the good Burghers of Enniskillen

22-01-2012 9:06pm

dubhthach wrote: »

When I stick Enniskillen to Belfast International (Aldergrove) into Google maps it tells me the distance is 126km, big chunk of this is along decent quality road (motorway). When I do the same for knock the distance comes at 122km this is going via Sligo.

If you ask me given better quality road and flight selection Belfast International is the better choice for the good Burghers of Enniskillen

Thats my whole argument, the standard of the road connections from north south east and west to Knock airport are just terrible. Any improvements to these roads will improve Knocks viability. With these improvements Knock will be within an hours drive for a fairly large section of the country.

DWCommuter · 22-01-2012 10:34pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Thats my whole argument, the standard of the road connections from north south east and west to Knock airport are just terrible. Any improvements to these roads will improve Knocks viability. With these improvements Knock will be within an hours drive for a fairly large section of the country.

So all roads should lead to Knock. The N17 isn't that bad and that's its primary connection. So be it. Please face it. Knock is a mickey mouse airport and if it pays its way then fair play. If it doesn't it should close. This airport was a religious brain child that had nothing to do with economics. It has recasted itself into a regional airport, once the pilgrimmes didn't show up en masse. Its business these days is flying real people to where they want to go along with 20 somethings heading to the sun for a week or two of sex and booze. Not quite what the Monsignor had in mind. As I said, if it can maintain this without state aid, let it roll. If not, demolish it. End of.

runway16 · 23-01-2012 12:05am

There is no issue whatsoever of Knock airport closing.

Knock continues to attract airlines which is more than can be said for other Irish airports at the moment. There should be investment in road links towards the airport because it is now the natural choice for the West and North west. An airport like Knock that can open and close according to the schedule has an obvious cost advantage over one that needs to stay open 24H.

OK, it may not be what the Monsignor wanted - but who cares what he wanted. The fact is it is following a course that is succesful, it is slowly building up a critical mass, and it will continue to do so.

Back to the wider issue of airport infrastructure in Ireland generally, Dublin will obviously continue as the major gateway, and sorry to anyone elsewhere who wants it to be "their" local airport, but it is never going to happen, so just face up to it. Cork and Shannon is an issue, IMHO.

There is no need for two airports for Cork and Limerick, and with Kerry thrown in the mix too. The ideal solution would be one airport, centrally located on the proposed M20 corridor, with rail access to each city. This would combine Cork's European route strength with SNN's transatlantic strength and ensure a critical mass which could sustain potentially many more European services and a few more Transatlantic links.

So, we would be left with Dublin, Knock, a combined Cork / Shannon, and Derry to serve the far North west of the country.

There is no point having an airport on your door step if it barely sustain one bloody route. Better to have something at an hours distance where you have a large choice of destinations you need.

Trotter · 23-01-2012 12:14am

bk wrote: »

I think it would be very safe to say that 90% of the Irish population is now within a one hour drive of DUB or ORK or SNN.

Im in Waterford.

Its a 90 minute drive to Cork airport on a very good day.

Its a 2hr drive to Dublin Airport if Im the only one using the Naas Dual Carriageway.

Shannon is over 2 hours away.

You can imagine therefore that the 'Im ok so the rest of them can make do' attitude by many towards many issues including airports, education etc can be frustrating.

So with 60k people in Waterford (low guess), theres 1.25% ish of the Irish population that are more than 90 mins from those airports mentioned, never mind an hour away. Id be confident of finding the other 9% needed to debunk the 90% figure.

runway16 · 23-01-2012 12:41am

The solution to that is to improve road links, not build or sustain yet another airport.

My solution above would be within an hour of Waterford by road if done properly.

60K people wont sustain an airport with a decent range of flights. We need to realise that. It may be handy for whoever wants to fly to London or Birmingham, but not for anyone else, because that's all Waterford airport can really sustain. Anyone flying elsewhere has to go to another airport. Those people are denied the opportunity of a large airport reasonably close by, because everyone wants their little airport down the road - problem is, all those little airports are cutting into each other's catchment area, meaning none of them can really develop and sustain routes.

Trotter · 23-01-2012 12:54am

runway16 wrote: »

The solution to that is to improve road links, not build or sustain yet another airport.

My solution above would be within an hour of Waterford by road if done properly.

60K people wont sustain an airport with a decent range of flights. We need to realise that. It may be handy for whoever wants to fly to London or Birmingham, but not for anyone else, because that's all Waterford airport can really sustain. Anyone flying elsewhere has to go to another airport. Those people are denied the opportunity of a large airport reasonably close by, because everyone wants their little airport down the road - problem is, all those little airports are cutting into each other's catchment area, meaning none of them can really develop and sustain routes.

I havent suggested
A) That Waterford Airport serves 60k people because it is used by much of the population of Wexford, Tipperary and Kilkenny.

That the government should sustain the airport in Waterford. Id much prefer it to stand on its own legs because it stops the government making cuts in it to appease the urban centres regardless of the social cost to all other areas.

If Waterford had the private investment to extend the runway to accomodate jet aircraft, I believe it would stand on its own very well and service the whole South East region of Ireland even better than it does now. Such a success though would be sour tasting to many that believe that people should live in a major city or go away and be quiet.

I look forward to Flybe attracting visitors to Waterford and the South East and customers to travel to Paris and Dusseldorf (via Birmingam) from the wider south easter region.

bk · 23-01-2012 12:58am

Trotter wrote: »

Im in Waterford.

Its a 90 minute drive to Cork airport on a very good day.

Its a 2hr drive to Dublin Airport if Im the only one using the Naas Dual Carriageway.

Shannon is over 2 hours away.

So basically you are saying you are within 2 hours of every major airport in Ireland and the closest is just 90 minutes away.

Come on, 90 minutes is totally an acceptable amount of time to get to an Airport, it is not as if it is something most people do every day. It is hardly a major hardship!!

I'm from Cork and most of my family and friends drive to Dublin (about 3 hours) to fly (cheaper flights and more destinations). So no, 60,000 people within 90 minutes of an airport don't justify yet another stupid, unsustainable airport!!

Trotter · 23-01-2012 1:01am

bk wrote: »

So basically you are saying you are within 2 hours of every major airport in Ireland and the closest is just 90 minutes away.

Come on, 90 minutes is totally an acceptable amount of time to get to an Airport, it is not as if it is something most people do every day. It is hardly a major hardship!!

I'm from Cork and most of my family and friends drive to Dublin (about 3 hours) to fly (cheaper flights and more destinations). So no, 60,000 people within 90 minutes of an airport don't justify yet another stupid, unsustainable airport!!

Waterford airport is sustainable because it is sustaining itself now.
Its not stupid. :rolleyes: and as I mentioned above, its being used by more than 60k people.

You're from Cork, so you're happy to have an airport on your doorstep. If I need to do business for a day in the UK, I need to be able to do it faster than 2 90 minute drives, time spent in security either side, and travel to and from the business I need to do.

Anyway.. I'll bail at this point. Its futile when an airport thats doing very well is termed.. stupid.

bk · 23-01-2012 1:20am

Trotter wrote: »

Anyway.. I'll bail at this point. Its futile when an airport thats doing very well is termed.. stupid.

When I said stupid, I wasn't specifically talking about any specific airport.

Instead I was talking about the idea that an island of just 4 million people and under 500 km long should have 9 international airports!!!

Must of them should never have been built and certainly not where they were.

If you have to do business for the day in London, traveling 90 minutes isn't a big deal. If you are regularly doing business in London, then you should move to London or somewhere closer to an airport that serves London.

You can't justify building expensive infrastructure just because it might be useful to a small number of people. You have to do a cost benefit analysis.

Frankly we are getting to the stage where even Cork and Shannon airports are questionable, never mind the smaller airports.

Of course Waterford is there now. So if it can survive without further taxpayer subsidy or grants, then fair play to it, it deserves to survive, it has proven itself. But it certainly should get another cent of taxpayers money.

Alfasud · 23-01-2012 1:21am

One way to utilise Shannon would be to build the proposed Chinese Hub close to it. It could use the cargo facility

Jim Martin · 23-01-2012 12:55pm

Shannon should have a rail link so that when Cork (fog) and Dublin are shut, there are good communication links available to carry large numbers of people.

bk · 23-01-2012 1:41pm

Jim Martin wrote: »

Shannon should have a rail link so that when Cork (fog) and Dublin are shut, there are good communication links available to carry large numbers of people.

No. Irish Rail did a feasibility study of this in 2006 and found little justification for it, the reports conclusion was:

http://www.transport21.ie/Publications/upload/File/ShannonFinalReport_Final_%20270607.pdf

The high quality road network is a significant factor in the low benefits produced by any of the rail schemes. This can be exploited to significantly improve the bus and coach service from Shannon Airport. We have considered an ‘all bus’ option, which would increase frequencies and reduce journey times consistently, giving a service level almost indistinguishable from that provided by the train service. This is achievable at much lower cost - some initial subvention and minor capital works – and more quickly than the rail options.

BTW The cost of this in 2006 was found to be between €245 and €440 million, with more then a €7million operating deficit. So basically the Western Rail Corridor all over again, but even worse this time.

L1011 · 23-01-2012 10:33pm

Jim Martin wrote: »

Shannon should have a rail link so that when Cork (fog) and Dublin are shut, there are good communication links available to carry large numbers of people.

How often are ORK *and* DUB shut on the same day, for a prolonged period that wouldn't allow craft to then divert back to ORK/DUB?

I'd imagine "its never happened" is the answer for that.

deccurley wrote: »

The N5 and N4 are in atrocious condition in parts.

The N4 is atrocious for approximately 11km out of its entire length (north of Castlebaldwin to south of the N17 RAB at Colooney). This is only due to it having been one of the straightest bits of the N4 as was, even if it has a few lethal bends in it

Otherwise it is generally the highest quality SC road in the country, consisting mostly of offline bypasses and realignments; with DC at both ends and for a bit in the middle. Needs a Carrick bypass, and the Castlebaldwin scheme, done urgently but that's it.

cson · 24-01-2012 11:25am

Shannon is criminally under utilised given the facilities it has. It should ideally be sold to the private sector where I'd be reasonably confident it would flourish. Whether we can justify 4 International Airports at that point is debatable. NOC is commercially viable and is doing a super job but I genuinely think a completed Atlantic Corridor M road would cause it serious damage if Shannon were to be privatised.

24-01-2012 12:57pm

cson wrote: »

Shannon is criminally under utilised given the facilities it has. It should ideally be sold to the private sector where I'd be reasonably confident it would flourish. Whether we can justify 4 International Airports at that point is debatable. NOC is commercially viable and is doing a super job but I genuinely think a completed Atlantic Corridor M road would cause it serious damage if Shannon were to be privatised.

Maybe, But remember Shannon is two hours south of Knock airport on a quiet day. I can't see people from the north west travelling a further two hours south just to go to shannon, they would be as well to travel to Dublin.

If the atlantic corridor was completed it would make Knock much more accessible to both Galway and Sligo and might actually start to take more traffic from shannon. Knock maybe tiny but its still filling 3 flights a day to London every day(shannon having 5/day). Sligo and Galway access may give it that critical mass needed to allow other destinations to have multiple flights/day.

Shannon as motorway access from all directions and is still floundering, Cork, Kerry and Shannon in a relatively small enclosed region is probably overkill. For shannon to recover Cork or Kerry will likely have to close!!, lots of Munster is only 90 minutes from Dublin airport(because of the excellent roads in Munster and Leinster), the rest of Munster is served by 3 airports. It doesn't help that two of those are state run. Ideally those 3 airports should of been amalgamated in somewhere like cahir??An airport that would give excellent service and be busy. You'd then have Knock for the west north west and west midlands border region, Cahir for munster and South Leinster, Dublin for the rest.

dubhthach · 24-01-2012 1:28pm

The M17/M18 also makes Shannon more accessible to Galway, it will put Tuam about 1hour from Shannon for example.

cson · 24-01-2012 5:25pm

Shannon has better existing facilities than Knock ergo investment should be directed there tbh.

dowlingm · 24-01-2012 6:40pm

bk wrote: »

No. Irish Rail did a feasibility study of this in 2006 and found little justification for it, the reports conclusion was:

http://www.transport21.ie/Publications/upload/File/ShannonFinalReport_Final_%20270607.pdf

It would be nice to see a bit of the proposed works done to improve Limerick-Ennis (the ones from Limerick Check to Cratloe) but the only way rail would ever have been realistic from Shannon Airport is if Shannon Town had been heavily developed (up to and including priority over Ennis) and if alignments had been preserved in the town's development plan. The genesis of Shannon was in an age when people aspired to a car society and I guess leaving room for rail was deemed "old Ireland".

24-01-2012 9:29pm

cson wrote: »

Shannon has better existing facilities than Knock ergo investment should be directed there tbh.

Sure!! keep pumping in investment into areas that by your own admission have good facilities and let the other deprived areas get worse just because .....Wait for it ...................they already have bad facilities.

:rolleyes: Sounds a bit like government policy.

robd · 25-01-2012 10:43am

Deleted User wrote: »

Sure!! keep pumping in investment into areas that by your own admission have good facilities and let the other deprived areas get worse just because .....Wait for it ...................they already have bad facilities. :rolleyes: Sounds a bit like government policy.

The statistics for Knock speaks for itself. 654k passengers in 2011. Shannon carried 1.6m. 654k is peak for Knock. Peak for Shannon is 3.6m in 2006. Both airports are completely at the whim of one Michael O'Leary. Knock should be closed to make Shannon viable.

Roads and rail are irrelevant. If people have limited airports they'll make the journey accordingly. They'll make their own comparison with costs and transit times (such as choosing between Dublin, Cork and Shannon).

I'd also close Kerry, Donegal, Galway, Sligo and Waterford Airports. I'd remove all PSO funding too.

I'd prefer to see PSO money going into Atlantic Corridor. I'd removing funding for Western Rail Corridor and other bad Irish Rail routes and divert to Atlantic Corridor also. Atlantic Corridor is only regional transport that actually makes any sense what so ever.

Sponge Bob · 25-01-2012 12:20pm

Now we have a Modern Reboot of the old Passports for Sale scheme (which was what really got Kerry Airport a Terminal and New Runway back in the day ) maybe some squiddlies can be magicked up to develop Knock.

What would you personally advise these people to invest in up there Mayomaffia ???

The future of Airports in ireland

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