The future of Airports in ireland

robd

robd wrote: »

Of course political interference will keep it open anyway. The Leader of the country is a Mayo man of course. So you don't really need to worry.

Its not political interference thats keeping it open, it the only one thats making a profit thats keeping it open.

I wouldn't mind my taxes subsidising shannon so much if they would restructure it into a model that would stop losing the taxpayers money. Why d'ont the DAA just sell it or lay off staff making staff levels more suitable to a 1.6 million passenger airport. They will need even more subsidies once the US troops stop landing.

Or Maybe the people of Limerick should start flying more;)

Some of you would really want to go on a drive of the country if you think SNN is an acceptable driving distance for the people of the west and North west and border region. Closing Knock will hardly help SNN at all but would increase DUB's numbers.

Also BK: Knock isn't exactly a small runway. Its currently the 3rd biggest in the country and if plans go ahead it will be a 2nd biggest(plenty of expansion room). 747's have had no problems landing in Knock in emergency situations as i have seen it myself.

Ross Perot(ex US Pres candidate) had planned on setting up his transatlantic cargo base there in the 90's but it was rejected as he wanted full airport control. There is already a cargo apron specifically for this.

robd

antoobrien wrote: »

Can't consider doing that until one or possibly both of a) dc/motorway/rail link direct from sligo to shannon b) N4 upgraded to DC from Sligo to Mullingar.

God forbid. What did people do before 1985?

antoobrien

robd wrote: »

God forbid. What did people do before 1985?

it was esier to get to tuam from galway in 1985 than it is now, so go figure

cson

bk wrote: »

What thing to consider if talking about Shannon versus Knock, is that Shannon will never be closed as it is one of the most important "technical" airports in Europe.

Due to it's location and long runway, it is the emergency landing runway for any transatlantic flights that get into trouble.

Knock doesn't have the facilities to handle this, so Shannon will never be closed.

There is a very strong argument for closing Knock, even if it doesn't require subsidy. Knocks recent growth has been from Ryanair transferring business from Shannon to Knock. This is due to Knock airport charges being lower then Shannon. The reason Knock charges are cheaper is because it is a much smaller airport, with far less facilities to maintain.

But this then means less business at Shannon, which means the government have to pay more subsidies to keep Shannon open. The government have no choice but to keep Shannon open due to the importance of it to transatlantic aviation.

So if they were to close Knock, it would force Ryanair back to Shannon, thus requiring less subsidies at Shannon.

Sorry if my explanation is a bit hard to follow.

If SNN is privatised from the DAA you'll see that happening fairly quickly. As I've said SNN is very under utilised at the moment.

Complete the Atlantic Corridor from Gort - Sligo and you immediately reduce the need for 4 international airports. The location of which should be determined by population centres and not region. I really struggle to comprehend the outrageous and nonsensical views that are being expressed here a lá closing ORK and SNN in favour of a greenfield Munster airport in Cahir. It really is beyond comprehension.

Further, I don't think NOC should be shut, far from it. IF it can trade profitably then more power to it. But it shouldn't be receiveing any further State assistance nor should KIR/GWY/WAT etc. If they can maintain scheduled services on their own merit then fair play to them and well done. Aviation policy in this country should dictate that a major International Airport on the East coast, the South coast and the West coast should suffice for a country with a population equivilant to Greater Manchester. And State funding should reflect this with spending focused on improving facilities and access routes to these hubs.

This thread is clearly evidence of the small minded parish politics that is rife in Ireland. My field is more important than our collective fields schtick. It's sickening to be honest and the sooner its rooted out of Irish society the better.

Trotter

cson wrote: »

This thread is clearly evidence of the small minded parish politics that is rife in Ireland. My field is more important than our collective fields schtick. It's sickening to be honest and the sooner its rooted out of Irish society the better.

Can I ask how far you live from an international airport? Its just that it seems those that are most critical of people wanting to be closer to an airport are in fact... close to an airport.

cson

cson wrote: »

If SNN is privatised from the DAA you'll see that happening fairly quickly. As I've said SNN is very under utilised at the moment.

Complete the Atlantic Corridor from Gort - Sligo and you immediately reduce the need for 4 international airports. The location of which should be determined by population centres and not region. I really struggle to comprehend the outrageous and nonsensical views that are being expressed here a lá closing ORK and SNN in favour of a greenfield Munster airport in Cahir. It really is beyond comprehension.

Further, I don't think NOC should be shut, far from it. IF it can trade profitably then more power to it. But it shouldn't be receiveing any further State assistance nor should KIR/GWY/WAT etc. If they can maintain scheduled services on their own merit then fair play to them and well done. Aviation policy in this country should dictate that a major International Airport on the East coast, the South coast and the West coast should suffice for a country with a population equivilant to Greater Manchester. And State funding should reflect this with spending focused on improving facilities and access routes to these hubs.

This thread is clearly evidence of the small minded parish politics that is rife in Ireland. My field is more important than our collective fields schtick. It's sickening to be honest and the sooner its rooted out of Irish society the better.

Not cahir in particular maybe Clonmel, But the thee airports of Cork SNN and Kerry are in a cluster in the southwest of the country not much more than an hour from each other especially once the M20 is completed(M20 will have to be done at some stage soon)One combined airport in that region would be much more ideal. They are currently ruining each other.


I'll put it simply like this you drive any direction from knock airport for two hours and you will not reach another airport, Yet this 2 hour radius covers nearly 50% of the country. Thats why Knock passenger levels are increasing.

You cannot say that SNN is an airport for the west, its an airport for the southwest. You can imagine the uproar if the people of Limerick had to travel the three hour journey up to Sligo, or the 4.5 hours up to letterkenny or the 2.5 hours to Longford. Knock is the airport that people in the west use because that is local to them not SNN. SNN is the airport that the people in the southwest use when they cannot get a suitable flight out of Cork or Kerry.
Even from mayo which is only half way up the coast SNN is a 3 hour journey away, You would nearly be in DUB as quick.

CSON i assume you dont live 3 or fours hours from your nearest airport, actually how many airports have you in a two hour radius from you, if its more than one thats one too much. I do agree that we only need 3 airports just not the same three as you because i think all citizens should have a certain level of service not just those living in Munster or Dublin especially when their taxes are subsidising these loss making airports.

cson

Trotter wrote: »

Can I ask how far you live from an international airport? Its just that it seems those that are most critical of people wanting to be closer to an airport are in fact... close to an airport.

I've lived 2hrs from an airport and I currently live 20mins from DUB so I've seen both sides of the argument and what I've posted is what I think.

And tbqh 2/3hrs of a drive is relatively short. You could be 5+hrs from your nearest International Airport in the US often depending on where you live. I'm going to take an educated guess and suggest that no major population centre in Ireland (>10k people) is more than 3hrs drive from an International Airport.

For example; Ballina is less than 3hrs from both Derry and Shannon. As I say the focus should be on completing the Atlantic Corridor and then in one go you've pretty much everywhere in North Galway, Mayo, Roscommon and Leitrim within 2hrs of Shannon.

Again I'd Iike to outline I'm not for NOC/GMY/WAT/KIR closing but simply that State funding for these facilities should cease and instead be directed towards improving existing facilities and transport links at DUB/ORK/SNN.

cson

Deleted User wrote: »

Not cahir in particular, But the thee airports of Cork SNN and Kerry are in a cluster in the southwest of the country not much more than an hour from each other especially once the M20 is completed(M20 will have to be done at some stage soon)One combined airport in that region would be much more ideal. They are currently ruining each other.

KIR is more or less irrelevant in that argument. It has one PSO [which should end tbqh] and is carried by Ryanair operating 5 other routes, two of which are seasonal.

ORK services Cork Metropolitan area, 275,000 people on its own [which is greater than the sum of the North West's population btw] as well as Cork County, Waterford and South Tipperary. SNN services Limerick and Galway Metropolitan areas which comprise > 150,000 people as well as both those counties, Clare and North Tipperary.

The €17.7m in Government funding given to KIR in 2007 should have been given to ORK and SNN. The €27m given to NOC in 2007 should have been given to SNN and the M18/17 project.

But hey, we love our local interests in this country. To hell with whats good for Ireland if my parish can have its cake and eat it.

tharlear

God forbid. What did people do before 1985?

Father drove me from galway, west of the river to shannon on a saturday afternoon, 1HR 10MINUTES BACK IN 85.

Last time I was at home 2010 it took 1hour to get to oranmore, 20 minutes to gort and then onto the motorway 25 minute to shannon.

There were fewer cars on the roads in ireland in the eighties

You could be 5+hrs from your nearest International Airport in the US often depending on where you live

While this is true, most remote areas in the US have regional airport that feed into larger airports. This is how many of the airports in ireland started out, as a easy way to get to dublin airport as the roads were crap. Then they eliminated the middel man "dublin". If they can carry on without state aid then let them.
Many of the airport in the states that have international flights, only serve canada and mexico, carribian

cson

Deleted User wrote: »

I'll put it simply like this you drive any direction from knock airport for two hours and you will not reach another airport, Yet this 2 hour radius covers nearly 50% of the country.

Knock Airport is 2hrs 5mins from Shannon. Less if you had the M18/17 network in operation.

Deleted User wrote: »

You cannot say that SNN is an airport for the west, its an airport for the southwest. You can imagine the uproar if the people of Limerick had to travel the three hour journey up to Sligo, or the 4.5 hours up to letterkenny. Knock is the airport that people in the west use because that is local to them not SNN. SNN is the airport that the people in the southwest use when they cannot get a suitable flight out of Cork or Kerry.
Even from mayo which is only half way up the coast SNN is a 3 hour journey away, You would nearly be in DUB as quick.

SNN by definition is in the mid west. Its 2.5hrs from Ballina which is the biggest northernmost population centre in Mayo. Sligo is 2hrs 40 from SNN and 2hrs 10 from LDY. Again both journey times would be significantly shorter with the proposed Atlantic Corridor.

Deleted User wrote: »

CSON i assume you dont live 3 or fours hours from your nearest airport, actually how many airports have you in a two hour radius from you, if its more than one thats one too much. I do agree that we only need 3 airports just not the same three as you.

Where I live is irrelevant. I've lived 2.5hrs from an airport and I've lived 20mins from one. My opinion is shaped by both experiences.

You shouldn't expect to have an airport on your doorstep, this country is too small for that. Travelling 2hrs or thereabouts is not a long journey.

cson

tharlear wrote: »

Father drove me from galway, west of the river to shannon on a saturday afternoon, 1HR 10MINUTES BACK IN 85.

Last time I was at home 2010 it took 1hour to get to oranmore, 20 minutes to gort and then onto the motorway 25 minute to shannon.

There were fewer cars on the roads in ireland in the eighties

Mway just needs to be built on from Gort to Galway and its 45mins from Galway City to SNN then.

cson

cson wrote: »

KIR is more or less irrelevant in that argument. It has one PSO [which should end tbqh] and is carried by Ryanair operating 5 other routes, two of which are seasonal.

ORK services Cork Metropolitan area, 275,000 people on its own [which is greater than the sum of the North West's population btw] as well as Cork County, Waterford and South Tipperary. SNN services Limerick and Galway Metropolitan areas which comprise > 150,000 people as well as both those counties, Clare and North Tipperary.

The €17.7m in Government funding given to KIR in 2007 should have been given to ORK and SNN. The €27m given to NOC in 2007 should have been given to SNN and the M18/17 project.

But hey, we love our local interests in this country. To hell with whats good for Ireland if my parish can have its cake and eat it.

You can bet every City in the US does not have its own airport, Combining Cork and SNN would give the level of service that could compete with DUB in terms of flights available. You could have an airport which is located 30 minutes drive from Limerick city, Cork city and Waterford city with regular shuttle services.
But hey, we love our local interests in this country. To hell with whats good for Ireland if my parish can have its cake and eat it.;)

cson

cson wrote: »

For example; Ballina is less than 3hrs from both Derry and Shannon. As I say the focus should be on completing the Atlantic Corridor and then in one go you've pretty much everywhere in North Galway, Mayo, Roscommon and Leitrim within 2hrs of Shannon.

There isn't a hope in hell of reaching SNN in 3 hours from Ballina unless you leave at night time when there is no cars on the road and the towns are empty, same goes for Castlebar, Sligo, Carrick, Longford, Enniskillen, and Tuam even when Galway is very busy. The road from Sligo to Knock alone can take two hours during busy summer days. I drive that road quite regularly there can be a 3 hours difference travelling after 10PM at night because of traffic problems going through the few dozen towns and villages on route. Without Knocks transport links lots of people in the North and West(not South West SNN) could not do business effectively.

cson

Deleted User wrote: »

You can bet every City in the US does not have its own airport, Combining Cork and SNN would give the level of service that could compete with DUB in terms of flights available. You could have an airport which is located 30 minutes drive from Limerick city, Cork city and Waterford city with regular shuttle services.

I love how you can just tweak journey times to suit your own argument. Limerick City is currently 1hr40 from ORK, Waterford City is 1hr 50 from ORK.

In simple economics ORK and SNN should not be competing with DUB. The latter is the main aviation transport hub for the entire country. The latter two should be aiming to serve their particular regions, the south and west respectively.

Deleted User wrote: »

But hey, we love our local interests in this country. To hell with whats good for Ireland if my parish can have its cake and eat it.;)

I'm glad you can acknowledge that.

cson

cson wrote: »

I love how you can just tweak journey times to suit your own argument. Limerick City is currently 1hr40 from ORK, Waterford City is 1hr 50 from ORK.

In simple economics ORK and SNN should not be competing with DUB. The latter is the main aviation transport hub for the entire country. The latter two should be aiming to serve their particular regions, the south and west respectively.



I'm glad you can acknowledge that.

Thats why im suggesting somewhere further inland like Cahir which with good roads would be 30 minutes from 3 cities. It takes 30 minutes to get to DUB sometimes from the city so i cant see why the limerick and Cork people would have to complain about. It would also mean the closure of Kerry and Waterford= further savings and instead of the Government pumping money into two dying state airports they could all be combined in one..

I though you would be the first to agree to that suggestion and this rationalisation, or is it as you say "we love our local interests in this country. To hell with whats good for Ireland if my parish can have its cake and eat it." Or is it close all airports as long as their are not in the south west or SNN ? You wouldn't happen to be from near SNN ?

cson

Deleted User wrote: »

There isn't a hope in hell of reaching SNN in 3 hours from Ballina unless you leave at night time when there is no cars on the road, same goes for Castlebar, Sligo, Carrick, Longford, Enniskillen, and Tuam even when Galway is very busy. The road from Sligo to Knock alone can take two hours during busy summer days. I drive that road quite regularly there can be a 3 hours difference travelling after 10PM at night because of traffic problems going through the few dozen towns and villages on route. Without Knocks transport links lots of people in the West(not South West SNN) could not do business effectively.

I'll take your word for it, though I do find google maps journey times on the generous side.

Thus this is why the €27m given to NOC for their ILS white elephant should have been directed toward the M17/18 project allowing better links to SNN which is in the midwest fyi.

Just to be clear what I'm trying to outline because you seem to have difficulty grasping it; Ireland should have a regionalised avaiation hubs consisting of DUB [serving the east], ORK [serving the south] and SNN [serving the west] [ii] such regionalised airports should be located in such a manner that they serve the biggest population base thereby providing benefits to the majority of the community [iii] state funding for all other airports in the country should cease and be redirected towards in improving transport links and facilities within the 3 main airports outlined previously [iv] completion of the M17/18 motorway would leave no major population centre in the northwest > 2.5hrs from SNN.

cson

Deleted User wrote: »

Thats why im suggesting somewhere further inland like Cahir which with good roads would be 30 minutes from 3 cities. It takes 30 minutes to get to DUB sometimes from the city so i cant see why the limerick and Cork people would have to complain about. It would also mean the closure of Kerry and Waterford.

The fact that you genuinely seem to be suggesting that closing ORK and SNN and constructing a brand new international airport on a greenfield site in Cahir or Clonmel is so far off the chain I don't know where to begin.

I take it you have little understanding of aviation so I'll break it down gently for you; the two areas you've mentioned are surrounded by mountain ranges [Comeragh, Galtee etc]. Planes don't like mountainous regions.

Y'know aside form the economic considerations and all.

cson

cson wrote: »

The fact that you genuinely seem to be suggesting that closing ORK and SNN and constructing a brand new international airport on a greenfield site in Cahir or Clonmel is so far off the chain I don't know where to begin.

I take it you have little understanding of aviation so I'll break it down gently for you; the two areas you've mentioned are surrounded by mountain ranges [Comeragh, Galtee etc]. Planes don't like mountainous regions.

Y'know aside form the economic considerations and all.

Thats what they said about Knock in the 80's, now it serves an area which is nearly 50% of the country, provides a valuable service and makes a profit. Thinking outside the box might just not be your forte. But hey "To hell with whats good for Ireland " keep defending those two loss making state airports in your back yard as im sure my Taxes couldn't be going to better uses.

cson

[1] Can you corroborate your assertion it serves 50% of the country? Or was that particular stat taken from the Pulling-It-Out-Of-My-Arse Institute?

[2] There really is no need to think outside the box when there are three existing facilities with new terminals built in the last 10 years or so, located 2hrs or less from from 89% of the population [and that's including 161k people in Donegal who are an hour or less from LDY], one of which had facilities deemed acceptable to designate it as an emergency landing zone for a NASA Space Shuttle. So tbh all that's needed is to build the Atlantic Corridor [thereby 100% of the population will be within 2hrs of an airport] and direct investment toward ORK, SNN and DUB.

[3] They aren't in my back yard or within 100 miles of it in fact. Though it might surprise you that someone from Ireland can hold an objective view.

[4] They're loss making because they've invested significant amounts in infrastructure [ORK] or else have been shoddily managed by the DAA [SNN]. Just the same as NOC would be had it had to pay for its ILS System itself.

cson

cson wrote: »

[3] They aren't in my back yard or within 100 miles of it in fact. Though it might surprise you that someone from Ireland can hold an objective view.

:DYou finally left home and moved to the big smoke. wow:rolleyes: SNN would make a good driving test centre

cson

Deleted User wrote: »

:DYou finally left home and moved to the big smoke. wow:rolleyes:

Right, I'm out.

I won't drop to your level so come back to me when you feel like continuing this in a grown up manner.

bk

The idea of closing ORK and SNN and building a new airport is simply nuts.

It would cost hundreds of millions to build a new equivalent airport and just after ORK has gotten a nice new 100 million terminal. Simply crazy.

Wouldn't it be better not to do this and instead invest a fraction of that money in completing the Atlantic Road Corridor.

The ARC would benefit the people of the North West far more then any airport. The ARC would not only get you to SNN quicker, but would also allow for many other benefits, like people being able to get between the towns and cities in the region much quicker and safer.

Why do people in rural areas of Ireland have an obsession with building white elephant infrastructure like NOC and the Western Rail Corridor, over practical infrastructure like the ARC that would actually benefit them far more.

The money wasted on NOC and the WRC could have paid for the ARC by now.

robd

bk wrote: »

The idea of closing ORK and SNN and building a new airport is simply nuts.

It would cost hundreds of millions to build a new equivalent airport and just after ORK has gotten a nice new 100 million terminal. Simply crazy.

Wouldn't it be better not to do this and instead invest a fraction of that money in completing the Atlantic Road Corridor.

The ARC would benefit the people of the North West far more then any airport. The ARC would not only get you to SNN quicker, but would also allow for many other benefits, like people being able to get between the towns and cities in the region much quicker and safer.

Why do people in rural areas of Ireland have an obsession with building white elephant infrastructure like NOC and the Western Rail Corridor, over practical infrastructure like the ARC that would actually benefit them far more.

The money wasted on NOC and the WRC could have paid for the ARC by now.

Very good summation.

To be honest I'm largely bowing out of this thread. It's seems to be mayomaffia against everyone else. Everyone else representing basic common sense.

I don't know how many times I've repeated population density etc. Wise investment is about putting money to something that will benefit the most people. With money in very very short supply it's even more important that we think like that.

Neworder79

bk wrote: »

The money wasted on NOC and the WRC could have paid for the ARC by now.

Hardly, M17/18 estimated €400 million alone. Ennis bypass €210, Gort/Crusheen €207, Bundoran/Ballyshannon was €84 million...

WRC might have built a good bypass. But of the €27 million offered to NOC about €16 was drawn down, 60/40 split with the airports own resources, which might get you a couple of Km of SC at best.

Aidan1

The idea of closing ORK and SNN and building a new airport is simply nuts.

Correct. Frankly, the suggestion is being driven by a very poor choice of metric - a theoretical coverage of geographical region within a certain timeframe, with no consideration of population density or likelihood of airport use. Those airports are proximate to cities - and so the total journey time of all passengers travelling to them will be far lower than the figure for an airport located in the sticks. In other words, having airports located close to cities provides the most efficient transport solution. This is not just because they are located close to the critical mass of population, but also because urban based people are more likely to need to travel by air.

Sponge Bob

Varadkar in Limerick then Shannon tomorrow and rumours are flying. Inter alia the rumours are.

1. DAA will abandon Shannon to a consortia of local Chambers of Commerce, eg Limerick Ennis and Galway.
2. Large US Logistic company to set up hub in Shannon, Varadkar to announce that too.


see http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/business/varadkar_to_address_limerick_chamber_on_future_of_shannon_airport_1_3454265

Course a weak Shannon still handles twice as many as Knock.


http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/business/shannon_airport_sees_some_positives_ahead_for_2012_1_3447614

Shannon’s seven per cent market share among the three state airports is now the lowest in the airport’s history. At 1.6 million passengers, it handled more than two million passengers less than the peak in 2006 – the first full year of the former Ryanair deal – and also significantly less than the average 2.4 million handled between 2000 and 2004, before the base deal with Ryanair.

Among the positives during 2011, according to Mr MacCarthy was Aer Lingus Regional stepping into replace much of Ryanair’s previous UK service, increased services with some transatlantic carriers and extra summer charters to and from mainland Europe.

bk

bk wrote: »

The idea of closing ORK and SNN and building a new airport is simply nuts.

It would cost hundreds of millions to build a new equivalent airport and just after ORK has gotten a nice new 100 million terminal. Simply crazy.

Wouldn't it be better not to do this and instead invest a fraction of that money in completing the Atlantic Road Corridor.

The ARC would benefit the people of the North West far more then any airport. The ARC would not only get you to SNN quicker, but would also allow for many other benefits, like people being able to get between the towns and cities in the region much quicker and safer.

Why do people in rural areas of Ireland have an obsession with building white elephant infrastructure like NOC and the Western Rail Corridor, over practical infrastructure like the ARC that would actually benefit them far more.

The money wasted on NOC and the WRC could have paid for the ARC by now.

Bk i thinks its quite obvious i don't expect that to happen, im theorizing on what should of happened to have proper balanced development throughout all of Ireland. Putting one airport in the south equal distance between three cities makes much more sense than giving all tiny tiny cities in the south and south west a tax funded airport, which are all in competition with each other. Heaven forbid these people might have to travel an hour to an airport!!. If people can't see the sense in that, then there really isn't much hope for this country.

Robd its okay im finished on this thread, its obviously not a place for discussion! Sorry for having an opinion, how dare i question the status quo. Us in the west will try and keep our heads down anymore. And robd if all areas with low density shouldn't have an airport, then you better go spread the word to Scandinavia, North America and actually most of the world.

The success of Knock really does bring out the haters.

Good Bye

Funkstard

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Varadkar in Limerick then Shannon tomorrow and rumours are flying. Inter alia the rumours are.

1. DAA will abandon Shannon to a consortia of local Chambers of Commerce, eg Limerick Ennis and Galway.
2. Large US Logistic company to set up hub in Shannon, Varadkar to announce that too.


see http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/business/varadkar_to_address_limerick_chamber_on_future_of_shannon_airport_1_3454265

Course a weak Shannon still handles twice as many as Knock.


http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/business/shannon_airport_sees_some_positives_ahead_for_2012_1_3447614

Any reports on what happened at the meeting this morning?

Neworder79

Any reports on what happened at the meeting this morning?

Interim board to produce a business plan for outside investment and make final decision by Easter. Interestingly he said debt may need write down to some degree to make it viable.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0127/shannon.html

dowlingm

mayomaffia - toughen up a bit. Life is hard and people are going to disagree with you sometimes.

bk - as I've said before do you seriously think Inda will stand by and watch NOC be closed? Ireland has changed but not that much.

It's premature to consider anyway - NOC is going to get at least some of GWY's and SXL's business now and we should see how that shakes out.