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The future of Airports in ireland

  • 17-01-2012 11:08pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 4,517 ✭✭✭ RobitTV


    Today, waterford airport has basically survived after Flybe airline will be setting up there.

    Since Galway and sligo have closed, what about the other regional airports still remaining?

    What should be done to fix our airports for such a small population of 4 million on a small island?

    The goverment has also promised funding for some regional airports, whats the future and what needs to be done?


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Comments

  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 20,995 Mod ✭✭✭✭ bk


    Nothing needs to be done.

    We have far too many airports for the size of our country. We really don't need more then the three international airports, which are now well connected by high quality road network.

    As for the rest, they can either survive on their own two feet or close down.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,937 ✭✭✭ mayomaffia


    bk wrote: »
    Nothing needs to be done.

    We have far too many airports for the size of our country. We really don't need more then the three international airports, which are now well connected by high quality road network.

    As for the rest, they can either survive on their own two feet or close down.

    Knock goes to 31 different international destinations and makes a profit(Probably more than shannon). Its provides a massive service for people in the midlands north west and west. You think it should be shut down ?


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,781 ✭✭✭ Carawaystick


    bk wrote: »
    We really don't need more then the three international airports, which are now well connected by high quality road network.

    The high quality road connection from SNN to ORK is via Port Laoise which makes it less than High Quality. The direct connection via Buttevant is not high quality....


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 20,995 Mod ✭✭✭✭ bk


    mayomaffia wrote: »
    Knock goes to 31 different international destinations and makes a profit(Probably more than shannon). Its provides a massive service for people in the midlands north west and west. You think it should be shut down ?

    If I'm not mistaken, Knock now operates with no government subsidy (however in the past it did receive significant capital grants).

    If it can continue to operate successfully without operating subsidy or further capital grants, then fair play to it, it should remain open of course.

    The same with any of the other Airports such as Waterford. However outside of the main three they aren't materially important to the Irish economy any more and shouldn't receive any subsidy or grants.
    The high quality road connection from SNN to ORK is via Port Laoise which makes it less than High Quality. The direct connection via Buttevant is not high quality....

    Who would travel from SNN to ORK? They are both airports after all?

    What I meant is that most of the country is now within a safe and comfortable 3 hour drive from Dublin airport and that ORK and SNN serve their respective areas pretty well.

    I think it would be very safe to say that 90% of the Irish population is now within a one hour drive of DUB or ORK or SNN.

    It seems it is still taking a long time to sink into peoples heads how much the new motorway network has transformed Ireland and the impact it will have on lots of things such as rail and airports.

    In the past the intercity roads were very bad, taking a long time to travel on and dangerous. This made intercity rail and local airports very attractive. Intercity rail as it was faster, safer and more comfortable. Local airports as you didn't want to travel for hours on unsafe roads to get to distant airports.

    Now with the new motorway network, it is now often cheaper and much faster to drive then take the train and the distances are close enough between DUB and most places in Ireland that many people will take the 2 to 3 hour drive in either direction for a cheaper plane ticket or more flying options.

    This will have a big effect on the viability of intercity rail, rail freight, airports and maybe even shipping ports.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭ Sponge Bob


    Knock is welcome to survive commercially. If it fails to do so it should shut like any other failing company.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,236 ✭✭✭ Dr. Kenneth Noisewater


    The geographical spread of DUB ORK and SNN leaves the North West of the country a long long way from the nearest Airport if you take Knock out of the equation. Better infrastructure (namely motorways) has benefitted solely those who live in regions already served by DUB ORK and SNN. There is not a single stretch of motorway in counties Mayo, Sligo, Leitrim, Donegal, Longford, or in most of Roscommon. Draw a line west to east from Galway city to Dublin and you'll see a serious infrastructural defecit to the north of the line.

    The region has been neglected enough without taking away it's airport. Fine, shut down the smaller regional airports if they can't sustain themselves, but I believe Knock should be kept open.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭ Sponge Bob


    Shannon is at risk from being mothballed and taken over by the IAA direct as an emergency landing airport (not a commercial airport) because it has an insane cost stack and no business to support it. That would leave K-Nock ORK and DUB...which is quite enough.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 20,995 Mod ✭✭✭✭ bk


    deccurley wrote: »
    There is not a single stretch of motorway in counties Mayo, Sligo, Leitrim, Donegal, Longford, or in most of Roscommon.

    Total population is 428,000 people, or less then 10% of the population of Ireland (7% of the island of Ireland).

    You can't expect an area with such a small and dispersed population to get airports and motorways. It just isn't going to happen.

    Anyway some of the above aren't really all that far from DUB, SNN and Derry. While they may not have motorway the entire way, they have motorway well over half the journey and the other roads aren't particularly bad, not for the numbers living there.

    As SB says above, perhaps it would be better to close SNN and use Knock instead.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,278 ✭✭✭ dubhthach


    bk wrote: »
    Total population is 428,000 people, or less then 10% of the population of Ireland (7% of the island of Ireland).

    You can't expect an area with such a small and dispersed population to get airports and motorways. It just isn't going to happen.

    Anyway some of the above aren't really all that far from DUB, SNN and Derry. While they may not have motorway the entire way, they have motorway well over half the journey and the other roads aren't particularly bad, not for the numbers living there.

    As SB says above, perhaps it would be better to close SNN and use Knock instead.

    well 2+2 on the rest of the parts of N4 to Sligo would help if ye ask me. That and you would hope that M17/M18 Gort-Tuam would help. Make getting to Knock from Galway easier anyways let alone SNN.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,278 ✭✭✭ dowlingm


    How to save Shannon in one easy step:

    Close Baldonnel, move almost all operations to Shannon with two "outposts" at the Curragh for Army/Garda ops and at DUB for MATS.

    For chrissakes it's already a military operation - just not the Irish military :D


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,937 ✭✭✭ mayomaffia


    bk wrote: »
    I think it would be very safe to say that 90% of the Irish population is now within a one hour drive of DUB or ORK or SNN.

    Yeah all counties except North Galway, MAYO, SLIGO, Roscommon, Donegal, Longford, Cavan, Fermanagh, Leitrim. Should just put a fence around them !!!

    You forget that the Motorways to the west stop in Mullingar and the motorways going north stop in Gort.

    You should travel the N5 west and see why it takes 4 hours to go to Dublin from Mayo. The N5 through Roscommon is easily the worst Primary road in the country. On the N17 You pass 9 through towns and villages just to go from Claremorris to Gort alone. A jouney that takes two hours on a Friday afternoon would be cut by more than half with a motorway If the last treasonous government only spent 10% of what was spent in other regions we would not have the roads of third world standard. If they for a start spent the funding from Europe that was meant for the BMW area in the BMW it would of been a start.

    Recently we had the three biggest employers in Mayo , Baxter Hollister and Allergan making appeals to Government to improve the N5 as an unacceptable amount of product was been damaged directly related to the standard of the road it was been transported on.

    Finish the Atlantic corridor to Sligo at least, Finish the N5 motorway to Longford, add dual carriageways or impovements from there. Improve the electricity Grid, Then you get the investment that brings the workers that brings the justification for these improvements in the first place. Forget about the trains and WRC, that should never of been started. A half decent road structure and the people of the BMW area would be more than happy.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,937 ✭✭✭ mayomaffia


    bk wrote: »
    Total population is 428,000 people, or less then 10% of the population of Ireland (7% of the island of Ireland).

    You can't expect an area with such a small and dispersed population to get airports and motorways. It just isn't going to happen.

    Anyway some of the above aren't really all that far from DUB, SNN and Derry. While they may not have motorway the entire way, they have motorway well over half the journey and the other roads aren't particularly bad, not for the numbers living there.

    As SB says above, perhaps it would be better to close SNN and use Knock instead.

    Why do you think it has such a small population ? Precisely because there is no infrastructure there. We can't even get factories that consume large power in the west because of the third world grid we have here.

    Secondly its more like 10% of these journeys that would have motorways.

    Maybe if the infrastructure gets bad enough and enough people leave this region, you could encourage closing the roads. Of course open them up again for you coming down on your holidays.

    Talk about cart before the horse !!!:mad:

    Maybe Mayo CC should not of bothered repairing the bridge to Achill, let them starve after all they only make up a small percentage of the county. Let lennane get washed away next time, sure why would they be living out there in the first place. As for the Gas and Oil and windfarms let the workers walk to those places or use a bicycle.............They could bring all the construction parts in by canoe.
    :confused:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 479 ✭✭ Fo Real


    I have to laugh at MayoMaffia's post above me. Every sentence reeks with bitterness. Remove that rather large chip from your shoulder pal and realise that Dublin, Cork and the other significant urban centres around the country are the powerhouses of the economy. Therefore they justify investment in infrastructure. You got your WRC. It is a failure and a drain on MY taxes.

    Achill island deserves zero investment due to the minuscule tax revenue it generates. In fact, it's residents probably only survive on government subsidies like the rest of the Gaeltacht. Evacuate all the tiny islands off our coast, it's the 21st century ffs. You can't expect high speed broadband and a light rail system if you live on a uninhabitable rock in the mid-Atlantic.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,278 ✭✭✭ dubhthach


    Mod

    Folks stay on topic. I don't see how the above has anything to do with Airports. Likewise please read the charter, flaming isn't allowed. I won't have any problems locking the thread and handing out infractions if this sort of muppetary continues.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,937 ✭✭✭ mayomaffia


    Fo Real wrote: »
    I have to laugh at MayoMaffia's post above me. Every sentence reeks with bitterness. Remove that rather large chip from your shoulder pal and realise that Dublin, Cork and the other significant urban centres around the country are the powerhouses of the economy. Therefore they justify investment in infrastructure. You got your WRC. It is a failure and a drain on MY taxes.

    Achill island deserves zero investment due to the minuscule tax revenue it generates. In fact, it's residents probably only survive on government subsidies like the rest of the Gaeltacht. Evacuate all the tiny islands off our coast, it's the 21st century ffs. You can't expect high speed broadband and a light rail system if you live on a uninhabitable rock in the mid-Atlantic.

    You do realise that the WRC goes no further north than Galway. Now if you had a clue about geography or ever left the surroundings of TCD you would know that Galway isn't even half way up the country. So calling a track between limerick and galway a WRC is a joke.

    I have always said that the WRC is a non starter, is not needed and only benefits pensioners on free travel. I also believe that DU and Metro North should go ahead. But to have those state that whole sections of the country should be devoid of infrastructure because they have lower population levels, when its the lack of infrastructure thats causing those low population levels is foolish.

    People in this area do pay taxes also, the least they can expect is a half decent road to travel. Obviously begrudgers like your self could not be expected to understand that as your probably travel to school in the LUAS or other public transport subsidized with MY taxes. .:eek:

    A decent road structure would put Knock Airport within 1 hour of Sligo, Galway, Athlone, Longford, Leitrim, Fermanagh, west Cavan, Roscommon, Mayo.

    I wonder would you change your mind about Achill if like Belmullet they were sitting on several billion worth of Oil and Gas. You have whole lot of growing up to do.:D:D:p


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 20,995 Mod ✭✭✭✭ bk


    mayomaffia I agree other parts of the country deserve investment.

    However the reality of the situation is that Ireland will likely follow the rest of Europe with people leaving rural areas and moving to urban areas.

    For instance in France over 90% of people live in urban areas. In Ireland it is only 65%.

    But that isn't sustainable. You will simply never be able to deliver an adequate level of infrastructure to such a rural and widely dispersed population.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 479 ✭✭ Fo Real


    mayomaffia wrote: »
    ..... you probably travel to school in the LUAS or other public transport subsidized with MY taxes...

    Wrong in so many ways.
    1. The Luas is run by a private company and therefore doesn't receive state financial support, unlike your WRC.

    2. The Luas actually makes a profit, so even if it was state-owned, it wouldn't require government subsidies. This is what happens when infrastructure is built in areas with sufficient population levels. And Dublin isn't even densely populated compared to other European cities.

    Face the facts. The West of Ireland simply doesn't have the population levels to warrant the investment in infrastructure Dublin gets. I laughed when the idea of a Galway-Luas was floated a few years ago before being quietly dropped. Even Cromwell didn't want the West of Ireland...I believe he referred to it as comparable to "hell".


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,236 ✭✭✭ Dr. Kenneth Noisewater


    Fo Real wrote: »
    Face the facts. The West of Ireland simply doesn't have the population levels to warrant the investment in infrastructure Dublin gets. I laughed when the idea of a Galway-Luas was floated a few years ago before being quietly dropped. Even Cromwell didn't want the West of Ireland...I believe he referred to it as comparable to "hell".

    Are you just trolling? Because your post absolutely drips of ignorance, bordering on contempt for those in the west. Yeah, so the "GLUAS" was never really a runner, but if you tried to get from Knocknacarra (west Galway suburbs) to the city centre in rush hour, you'd realise the idea is borne from the same frustration that motorists in Dublin have to suffer. And we're not looking for the same level of infrastructural investment as Dublin gets, just our fair share. The N5 and N4 are in atrocious condition in parts.

    As has been mentioned, maybe SNN could close instead of Knock, Munster doesn't need 2 airports.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 13,991 Mod ✭✭✭✭ monument


    mayomaffia wrote: »
    A decent road structure would put Knock Airport within 1 hour of Sligo, Galway, Athlone, Longford, Leitrim, Fermanagh, west Cavan, Roscommon, Mayo.

    Athlone is just 1h 20mins to Dublin Airport!

    The main population centres in Sligo, Galway, Mayo, Longford, Roscommon, and Leitrim are already all within or just a bit over one hour from Knock Airport, or whatever they are calling it these days. The population of west Cavan is tiny, and, give its size, it isn't too far from Knock or Dublin.

    I don't know what on earth you think Fermanagh has to do with Knock given it is in Northern Ireland, and Enniskillen only is 1.5 hours from Belfast and 2 hours from Dublin Airport.

    mayomaffia wrote: »
    I wonder would you change your mind about Achill if like Belmullet they were sitting on several billion worth of Oil and Gas. You have whole lot of growing up to do.:D:D:p

    You don't need better roads to take gas or oil out. ;)

    More seriously: Revenues to the state is questionable given the refusal of governments to get better deals or put higher taxes on exploration.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,278 ✭✭✭ dowlingm


    Folks

    No way NOC closes on Inda's watch - it would be a personal disaster for him. Why even discuss it?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,937 ✭✭✭ mayomaffia


    monument wrote: »
    I don't know what on earth you think Fermanagh has to do with Knock given it is in Northern Ireland, and Enniskillen only is 1.5 hours from Belfast and 2 hours from Dublin Airport.

    Surely If Donegal people are expected to use Derry, then Fermanagh people are just as entitled to be using Knock airport.;) Enniskillen is much much closer to Knock its just a shocking road to travel, good for car rallies maybe. You really are risking your life on that road if you travel over 40 mph.


  • Registered Users Posts: 951 robd


    mayomaffia wrote: »
    You do realise that the WRC goes no further north than Galway. Now if you had a clue about geography or ever left the surroundings of TCD you would know that Galway isn't even half way up the country. So calling a track between limerick and galway a WRC is a joke.

    I have always said that the WRC is a non starter, is not needed and only benefits pensioners on free travel. I also believe that DU and Metro North should go ahead. But to have those state that whole sections of the country should be devoid of infrastructure because they have lower population levels, when its the lack of infrastructure thats causing those low population levels is foolish.

    People in this area do pay taxes also, the least they can expect is a half decent road to travel. Obviously begrudgers like your self could not be expected to understand that as your probably travel to school in the LUAS or other public transport subsidized with MY taxes. .:eek:

    A decent road structure would put Knock Airport within 1 hour of Sligo, Galway, Athlone, Longford, Leitrim, Fermanagh, west Cavan, Roscommon, Mayo.

    I wonder would you change your mind about Achill if like Belmullet they were sitting on several billion worth of Oil and Gas. You have whole lot of growing up to do.:D:D:p

    Ah Mayo. The 3rd largest county on the island of Ireland and 31st in terms of population density. Pretty much the lowest population density area in Europe. 130,552 people or 23.3 per km2.

    With a few to conservation, we should really persevere its beauty and ruralness. I'd prefer we resurfaced the roads to a decent standard and fixed/maintained what needs to be. But we shouldn't be widening them or building railways or partaking in other large industrial projects.

    At the end of the day it's about one project versus the other. Mayo getting new infrastructure will likely come at the expense of Galway or Limerick.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,278 ✭✭✭ dowlingm


    If you asked a foreigner to look at a map of Mayo and ask "where is the primary town of Mayo", they would probably say Claremorris - after all it used to have four railway lines converging as well as the N17 and N60. It's where Knock Airport should have been put and probably GMIT too. Instead the economic activity of Mayo is divvied up between Ballina, Castlebar, Westport and Claremorris and the airport is cocked out east of all of them! It's like the county is a microcosm of the so-called Spatial Strategy/Decentralisation!


  • Registered Users Posts: 542 ✭✭✭ unit 1


    I really love the way some people, probably myself included, subdivide the country to suit their arguments.
    An imaginary line from dublin to galway, above/below
    Donegal included with mayo galway etc when its in ulster
    Bmw "regions"
    "Munster" does not need 2 airports
    Fermanagh included with mayo galway donegal etc
    Gaeltachts
    "The west"
    The eastern seaboard

    My point exactly.
    Unless you can have a uniform acceptance of regionl borders or boundaries then lines will always be shifted to suit particular arguaments, but I would imagine given our political structure in this country (constituencies) and clientelism this would be very difficult to achieve. This is probably why a move to all island structures for some things does make sense, eg fire service, water and I'm sure many more.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,437 ✭✭✭ Richard


    mayomaffia wrote: »
    Surely If Donegal people are expected to use Derry, then Fermanagh people are just as entitled to be using Knock airport.;) Enniskillen is much much closer to Knock its just a shocking road to travel, good for car rallies maybe. You really are risking your life on that road if you travel over 40 mph.

    The Fermanagh people are entitled to use Knock airport, it's just that they're not entitled to expect the Irish govt to build better roads to get them there.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,278 ✭✭✭ dowlingm


    mayomaffia wrote: »
    Surely If Donegal people are expected to use Derry, then Fermanagh people are just as entitled to be using Knock airport.;) Enniskillen is much much closer to Knock
    Google Maps says otherwise. Both the recommended route (68mi vs 75.6mi) and the walking route (59.5mi vs 69.4mi) have NOC further from Enniskillen than LDY


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 61,050 Mod ✭✭✭✭ L1011


    Enniskillen Airport (ENK) has had commercial flights in the past ;)


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,937 ✭✭✭ mayomaffia


    dowlingm wrote: »
    Google Maps says otherwise. Both the recommended route (68mi vs 75.6mi) and the walking route (59.5mi vs 69.4mi) have NOC further from Enniskillen than LDY

    If you read back you'll see i was talking about Enniskillen been closer to Knock than Belfast. :rolleyes:

    If they complete the A4 up there and its linked to the proposed atlantic corridor, you are looking at less than an hours drive.

    We should be looking at an all island infrastructure as there is a good chance in twenty years there will be no border there.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,278 ✭✭✭ dubhthach


    mayomaffia wrote: »
    If you read back you'll see i was talking about Enniskillen been closer to Knock than Belfast. :rolleyes:

    When I stick Enniskillen to Belfast International (Aldergrove) into Google maps it tells me the distance is 126km, big chunk of this is along decent quality road (motorway). When I do the same for knock the distance comes at 122km this is going via Sligo.

    If you ask me given better quality road and flight selection Belfast International is the better choice for the good Burghers of Enniskillen


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,937 ✭✭✭ mayomaffia


    dubhthach wrote: »
    When I stick Enniskillen to Belfast International (Aldergrove) into Google maps it tells me the distance is 126km, big chunk of this is along decent quality road (motorway). When I do the same for knock the distance comes at 122km this is going via Sligo.

    If you ask me given better quality road and flight selection Belfast International is the better choice for the good Burghers of Enniskillen

    Thats my whole argument, the standard of the road connections from north south east and west to Knock airport are just terrible. Any improvements to these roads will improve Knocks viability. With these improvements Knock will be within an hours drive for a fairly large section of the country.


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