Racism - Mod Note on 1st Post - Read before posting.

Dublin_Gunner · 03-01-2012 01:02PM

SantryRed wrote: »

FFS. The way some people on both sides are knitpicking things is ridiculous. Have you fully read the report? A few days ago there was a few of us who managed to have a decent debate but now it's absolute sh1te again. Blatter, fair play for sticking at it because I'm gone.

The distinction between the 2 versions of the word are most certainly not nitpicking.

But if that's your argument, good riddance. The unsub button is on the bottom right.

Vudgie · 03-01-2012 01:03PM

niallo27 wrote: »

thegreengoblin wrote: »

Liverpool FC have acted in a quite astonishing manner since this case.

If they want to drag the club's reputation through the mud that's entirely up to them but they really should be on their bended knees giving thanks that Evra hasn't instigated legal proceedings against them for damage to his reputation. I know quite a few Pool fans and many of them are appalled and disgusted by the club's reaction.

This is becoming Liverpool's Twin Towers/JFK issue and frankly, most people are tired of it at this stage. Let it go people, just let it go.

This kind of overreacting bull**** wrecks me head, Suarez was a bit of a tit on the field, you would think he was touching kids by some of the reaction on here.

This has been a huge opportunity for a small minority to act like the protectors of social justice etc when they really are just on a bashing exercise. The reality is that this a huge issue and is the first test of the FA since their anti racism campaigns.

I am disappointed with most elements of this story; Suarez for bringing our club into disrepute twice this season, the club for a hasty and bordering on libelous statement, and also the fans of other teams on these boards for attacking fellow football fans in veiled acts of tribalism. I hope none of you are faced with your star player being involved in an episode like this.

The whole thing is a sorry mess and I think LIverpool should now just take the ban and move on as it would appear to be difficult to achieve anything more.

Crazy Horse 6 · 03-01-2012 01:09PM

thegreengoblin wrote: »

Liverpool FC have acted in a quite astonishing manner since this case.

If they want to drag the club's reputation through the mud that's entirely up to them but they really should be on their bended knees giving thanks that Evra hasn't instigated legal proceedings against them for damage to his reputation. I know quite a few Pool fans and many of them are appalled and disgusted by the club's reaction.

This is becoming Liverpool's Twin Towers/JFK issue and frankly, most people are tired of it at this stage. Let it go people, just let it go.

I don't know one single fellow Liverpool fan who is disgusted by the clubs action, in fact most football supporters i know think the whole thing is much ado about nothing.

Dublin_Gunner · 03-01-2012 01:17PM

Vudgie wrote: »

This has been a huge opportunity for a small minority to act like the protectors of social justice etc when they really are just on a bashing exercise. The reality is that this a huge issue and is the first test of the FA since their anti racism campaigns.

I am disappointed with most elements of this story; Suarez for bringing our club into disrepute twice this season, the club for a hasty and bordering on libelous statement, and also the fans of other teams on these boards for attacking fellow football fans in veiled acts of tribalism. I hope none of you are faced with your star player being involved in an episode like this.

The whole thing is a sorry mess and I think LIverpool should now just take the ban and move on as it would appear to be difficult to achieve anything more.

If I'm honest, I think that's probably the best course of action. The whole debacle will have been forgotten about by the summer anyway.

#15 · 03-01-2012 01:18PM

Vudgie wrote: »

This has been a huge opportunity for a small minority to act like the protectors of social justice etc when they really are just on a bashing exercise. The reality is that this a huge issue and is the first test of the FA since their anti racism campaigns.

I am disappointed with most elements of this story; Suarez for bringing our club into disrepute twice this season, the club for a hasty and bordering on libelous statement, and also the fans of other teams on these boards for attacking fellow football fans in veiled acts of tribalism. I hope none of you are faced with your star player being involved in an episode like this.

The whole thing is a sorry mess and I think LIverpool should now just take the ban and move on as it would appear to be difficult to achieve anything more.

Good post Vudgie.

The tribal bollox that has gone on here makes it impossible for LFC fans to come out and criticise their club, because any such admission wll be seized upon by a few haters and used to attack the whole club and fanbase.

It's ironic that some of the people frothing at the mouth for condemnations are actually whipping up a frenzy and making it difficult for normal LFC fans to actually criticise Suarez/the club.

Who would make an honest criticism, in good faith, if they knew if it would be twisted and used against them in future?

The only LFC posters left are the conspiracy nuts, the mild racists, trolls like Mister Men, etc., and most of the decent LFC posters are steering well clear from this mess.

I'm sure lots of LFC fans have reservations about the way the club have handled this, but I can see why they want no part of this thread if their words are going to be used to attack them.

homerjay2005 · 03-01-2012 01:19PM

the liverpool fans attack on ken barlow (bill roache) (a fake account by the way) on twitter, is halarious.

he became one of the biggest trenders on twitter last night after posting a tweet to dalglish that he was now banned from some golf meeting in 2012. he then went on the ultimate trolling rollercoaster and sat back and watched people disintegrate at their keyboards. absolutely brilliant who ever it is thats running the account.

cant believe they fell for it.

SlickRic · 03-01-2012 01:21PM

Crazy Horse 6 wrote: »

I don't know one single fellow Liverpool fan who is disgusted by the clubs action, in fact most football supporters i know think the whole thing is much ado about nothing.

i wouldn't say disgusted, because as i said, any club would stand by a player through this, but a lot of sane Liverpool fans are disappointed with how they've gone about that defence.

it's not much ado about nothing - Suarez crossed the line. end of. for you to hint even that it's not in any way a big deal isn't really on. heat of the moment or not, derby or not, Evra acting the cúnt or not, racism isn't on.

and Liverpool should have known better than to go so far in their public defence, making it a siege mentality, before everything was on the table.

Crazy Horse 6 · 03-01-2012 01:21PM

homerjay2005 wrote: »

the liverpool fans attack on ken barlow (bill roache) (a fake account by the way) on twitter, is halarious.

he became one of the biggest trenders on twitter last night after posting a tweet to dalglish that he was now banned from some golf meeting in 2012. he then went on the ultimate trolling rollercoaster and sat back and watched people disintegrate at their keyboards. absolutely brilliant who ever it is thats running the account.

cant believe they fell for it.

And the thread title is about racism, what has a fake account on twitter got to do with anything or could it be you just don't like supporters of Liverpool?

Crazy Horse 6 · 03-01-2012 01:24PM

SlickRic wrote: »

i wouldn't say disgusted, because as i said, any club would stand by a player through this, but a lot of sane Liverpool fans are disappointed with how they've gone about that defence.

it's not much ado about nothing - Suarez crossed the line. end of. for you to hint even that it's not in any way a big deal isn't really on. heat of the moment or not, derby or not, Evra acting the cúnt or not, racism isn't on.

and Liverpool should have known better than to go so far in their public defence, making it a siege mentality, before everything was on the table.

I disagree completely. Suarez did sfa as far as i'm concerned. Cultural differences do count i'm afraid and if the likes of Gerrard had used the word negro then fair enough i would'nt be defending him and nor should the club.

eigrod · 03-01-2012 01:26PM

homerjay2005 wrote: »

he became one of the biggest trenders on twitter last night after posting a tweet to dalglish that he was now banned from some golf meeting in 2012. he then went on the ultimate trolling rollercoaster and sat back and watched people disintegrate at their keyboards. absolutely brilliant who ever it is thats running the account.

Yeah, it was really entertaining to be stoking Kenny Dalglish on the day he learned of the news of the death of one of his former players and great friends. Classy guy that tweeter :rolleyes:

Leiva · 03-01-2012 01:26PM

SlickRic wrote: »

i wouldn't say disgusted, because as i said, any club would stand by a player through this, but a lot of sane Liverpool fans are disappointed with how they've gone about that defence.

it's not much ado about nothing - Suarez crossed the line. end of. for you to hint even that it's not in any way a big deal isn't really on. heat of the moment or not, derby or not, Evra acting the cúnt or not, racism isn't on.

and Liverpool should have known better than to go so far in their public defence, making it a siege mentality, before everything was on the table.

I really think this is not the end of the matter by a long way .

Something tells me there is still alot to run on this issue .

Dont ask me why .

J. Marston · 03-01-2012 01:31PM

mixednuts wrote: »

I really think this is not the end of the matter by a long way .

Something tells me there is still alot to run on this issue .

Dont ask me why .

Why?

niallo27 · 03-01-2012 01:34PM

#15 wrote: »

Good post Vudgie.

The tribal bollox that has gone on here makes it impossible for LFC fans to come out and criticise their club, because any such admission wll be seized upon by a few haters and used to attack the whole club and fanbase.

It's ironic that some of the people frothing at the mouth for condemnations are actually whipping up a frenzy and making it difficult for normal LFC fans to actually criticise Suarez/the club.

Who would make an honest criticism, in good faith, if they knew if it would be twisted and used against them in future?

The only LFC posters left are the conspiracy nuts, the mild racists, trolls like Mister Men, etc., and most of the decent LFC posters are steering well clear from this mess.

I'm sure lots of LFC fans have reservations about the way the club have handled this, but I can see why they want no part of this thread if their words are going to be used to attack them.

Slick criticised the club handling of the situation, i dont see anyone attacking him and i can guarantee no one will use it against him the future.

03-01-2012 01:39PM

homerjay2005 wrote: »

the liverpool fans attack on ken barlow (bill roache) (a fake account by the way) on twitter, is halarious.

he became one of the biggest trenders on twitter last night after posting a tweet to dalglish that he was now banned from some golf meeting in 2012. he then went on the ultimate trolling rollercoaster and sat back and watched people disintegrate at their keyboards. absolutely brilliant who ever it is thats running the account.

cant believe they fell for it.

Ffs

#15 · 03-01-2012 01:40PM

niallo27 wrote: »

Slick criticised the club handling of the situation, i dont see anyone attacking him and i can guarantee no one will use it against him the future.

I meant that LFC fans might be reluctant to give honest criticism if they feel that non-LFC fans are going to twist their words and attack the club/fanbase as a whole.

Dublin_Gunner · 03-01-2012 01:43PM

#15 wrote: »

I meant that LFC fans might be reluctant to give honest criticism if they feel that non-LFC fans are going to twist their words and attack the club/fanbase as a whole.

1. It didn't stop Slick posting what he thought.

2. non-LFC fans have been doing that anyway, regardless of what any LFC fan might post about LFC's handling of the situation.

SlickRic · 03-01-2012 01:43PM

Crazy Horse 6 wrote: »

Suarez did sfa as far as i'm concerned. Cultural differences do count i'm afraid and if the likes of Gerrard had used the word negro then fair enough i would'nt be defending him and nor should the club.

cultural difference means sweet FA in this case.

have you read the report?

as far as the FA are concerned, unless Evra is blindly lying which, let's face it is kind of unlikely, then Suarez has repeatedly referenced Evra's skin colour completely unnecessarily, during their on-pitch conflict.

Suarez using "negro" in an English context, is absolutely moronic at best, and racist at worst.

Suarez admitted using the word FFS. at the very least he's done something wrong in saying it. he cannot plead ignorance if he said that word, and referenced it a few times. that is clutching at straws.

some fans need to realise, that they can support the club while also recognising that some people associated with it have done wrong, and that some have been very very stupid in their actions.

it doesn't make anybody any less of a fan.

#15 · 03-01-2012 01:46PM

Dublin_Gunner wrote: »

1. It didn't stop Slick posting what he thought.

2. non-LFC fans have been doing that anyway, regardless of what any LFC fan might post about LFC's handling of the situation.

1. Slick is one poster. There is more than one reasonable LFC poster on this forum.

2. Some non-LFC fans have been doing that. Which proves my point. Not many people are going to make a well thought out post if they think someone will just use it against them to slate the whole fanbase.

Dublin_Gunner · 03-01-2012 01:52PM

SlickRic wrote: »

cultural difference means sweet FA in this case.

have you read the report?

as far as the FA are concerned, unless Evra is blindly lying which, let's face it is kind of unlikely, then Suarez has repeatedly referenced Evra's skin colour completely unnecessarily, during their on-pitch conflict.

Suarez using "negro" in an English context, is absolutely moronic at best, and racist at worst.

Suarez admitted using the word FFS. at the very least he's done something wrong in saying it. he cannot plead ignorance if he said that word, and referenced it a few times. that is clutching at straws.

some fans need to realise, that they can support the club while also recognising that some people associated with it have done wrong, and that some have been very very stupid in their actions.

it doesn't make anybody any less of a fan.

In fairness they should be taken into account, especially considering the severity of the accusation / punishment, and so what someone said is not taken out of context / made to sound more than what it was.

For instance, the big headlines on Sky stating Suarez called him 'a negro' - which wasn't true at all. People see the word 'negro' and immediately put it into their own context and understanding of the word.

There are many circumstance where similar / the same words in different languages / cultures have different meanings.

Personally, I don't believe Suarez is a racist, nor do I believe he made a purposely racist remark to Evra.

I do think he may have said something which could be / and obviously was construed as being a racist comment.

Would a better way of handling the situation not be to ask Suarez if what he said, he understood to be racist, and explain that over here, that type of comment is not acceptable. Slap him with a fine (as the rule was breached) and explain that if any further remark like this happens, after explaining the differences in perception of the phrase(s) could/would result in a significant fine and/or suspension.

I think the FA's handling of the whole affair has been awful, and I personally think their hand has been forced due to their recent introduction of new rules, and want to be seen to be taking a hard line.

DDC1990 · 03-01-2012 01:54PM

SlickRic wrote: »

cultural difference means sweet FA in this case.

have you read the report?

as far as the FA are concerned, unless Evra is blindly lying which, let's face it is kind of unlikely, then Suarez has repeatedly referenced Evra's skin colour completely unnecessarily, during their on-pitch conflict.

Suarez using "negro" in an English context, is absolutely moronic at best, and racist at worst.

Suarez admitted using the word FFS. at the very least he's done something wrong in saying it. he cannot plead ignorance if he said that word, and referenced it a few times. that is clutching at straws.

some fans need to realise, that they can support the club while also recognising that some people associated with it have done wrong, and that some have been very very stupid in their actions.

it doesn't make anybody any less of a fan.

So Suarez is blindly lying... kinda unlikely dont ya think? :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Evra lying is not unlikely in the slightest.

Also Suarez didn't use the word "negro" in an English context, he used it in a Spanish context.

Anyway, back on topic. 4-3 Classic tonight. Wonder if Bellemy will play so soon after his exploits on Friday. He's been our main man this season goals wise. We need him out there!

#15 · 03-01-2012 01:55PM

Dublin_Gunner wrote: »

In fairness they should be taken into account, especially considering the severity of the accusation / punishment, and so what someone said is not taken out of context / made to sound more than what it was.

For instance, the big headlines on Sky stating Suarez called him 'a negro' - which wasn't true at all. People see the word 'negro' and immediately put it into their own context and understanding of the word.

There are many circumstance where similar / the same words in different languages / cultures have different meanings.

If you read the report you will see that objectivity was the relevant consideration, not subjectivity.

Secondly, if the headline on Sky said that he called Evra a black, would you be happier?

SlickRic · 03-01-2012 01:56PM

it should be taken into account when judging if he's actually a racist person or not maybe.

but in terms of the judgment, nope, IMO it means sweet FA.

if it doesn't, then you'll potentially have foreigners pleading ignorance up and down the country.

listermint · 03-01-2012 01:57PM

DDC1990 wrote: »

So Suarez is blindly lying... kinda unlikely dont ya think? :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Evra lying is not unlikely in the slightest.

Also Suarez didn't use the word "negro" in an English context, he used it in a Spanish context.

Anyway, back on topic. 4-3 Classic tonight. Wonder if Bellemy will play so soon after his exploits on Friday. He's been our main man this season goals wise. We need him out there!

What has context got to do with it? there is no need to reference colour on the pitch in any context. Are the usual names good enough 'prat' 'w**ker' etc etc...

niallo27 · 03-01-2012 01:58PM

#15 wrote: »

1. Slick is one poster. There is more than one reasonable LFC poster on this forum.

2. Some non-LFC fans have been doing that. Which proves my point. Not many people are going to make a well thought out post if they think someone will just use it against them to slate the whole fanbase.

Nothing wrong with a well though out post, its the ones suggesting kenny is in the Klan or comparing this whole situation to the twin towers that are the problem.

eigrod · 03-01-2012 02:00PM

SlickRic wrote: »

if it doesn't, then you'll potentially have foreigners pleading ignorance up and down the country.

Whereas what the FAs history on these incidents results in a message to all footballers is deny it and they won't pursue it any further.

_blank_ · 03-01-2012 02:02PM

SlickRic wrote: »

some fans need to realise, that they can support the club while also recognising that some people associated with it have done wrong, and that some have been very very stupid in their actions.

it doesn't make anybody any less of a fan.

You should put this in the bleedin charter ffs, it's not just this thread, or this incident, or this discussion that it applies to.

there are people, from ALL clubs, who could do with taking it on board.

Crazy Horse 6 · 03-01-2012 02:03PM

niallo27 wrote: »

Nothing wrong with a well though out post, its the ones suggesting kenny is in the Klan or comparing this whole situation to the twin towers that are the problem.

Niallo your always gonna get those sorts of posters on a wind up mission i'm afraid and whilst it's hard to ignore them it's best if you do.

#15 · 03-01-2012 02:04PM

DDC1990 wrote: »

So Suarez is blindly lying... kinda unlikely dont ya think? :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

From the report

245. In paragraph 27 of his witness statement, Mr Suarez said this:
"Evra did not back off and Dirk Kuyt was approaching us to stand between us. At
this point I touched PE's left arm in a pinching type of movement. This all happened
very quickly. I was trying to defuse the situation and was trying to intimate to Evra
that he was not untouchable by reference to his question about the foul. Under no
circumstances was this action intended to be offensive and most certainly not
racially offensive. It was not in any way a reference to the colour of PE's skin."
(emphasis added)

247. Having said in his witness statement that he was trying to defuse the situation when he
touched Mr Evra's left arm in a "pinching type movement", Mr Suarez eventually
answered, after persistent questioning, that he was not trying to calm down the situation
by doing so.
248. It was plain to us that Mr Suarez's pinching of Mr Evra's arm was not an attempt to defuse
the situation. It could not conceivably be described in that way. In our judgment, the
pinching was calculated to have the opposite effect, namely to aggravate Mr Evra and to
inflame the situation. We infer that this was Mr Suarez's intention. Mr Suarez's face
reveals hostility towards Mr Evra, the pinching is preceded by Mr Suarez looking Mr Evra
64
up and down, and Mr Suarez steps away having pinched Mr Evra as Mr Kuyt steps in to
face up to Mr Evra.
249. What concerned us also was that Mr Suarez should have made what we considered to be
such an unarguable assertion in his witness statement, ie that the pinching was an attempt
to defuse the situation when it plainly was not.

252. This was one example of where Mr Suarez's witness statement was demonstrated to be
inconsistent with the facts as shown in the video footage. No satisfactory explanation was
given for this inconsistency.

...

261. Whilst Mr Suarez had, in his interview with the FA, said that he had used the word
"negro" towards Mr Evra in a "friendly and affectionate" way, the first time that he used
the words "conciliation" and "conciliatory" was in his witness statement. This was signed
after Mr Suarez had received the experts' report which referred to the possibility that Mr
Suarez's use of the term was intended as an attempt at conciliation. It is difficult to avoid
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the conclusion that Mr Suarez used the words conciliation and conciliatory to describe his
use of the word "negro" because the experts had used those terms to describe the
circumstances in which the word would not generally be offensive in Uruguay.

....

267. Once more, we were troubled by the fact that Mr Suarez advanced this case to us and
relied on it to the extent that he did, when it was unsustainable. The suggestion that he
behaved towards Mr Evra at this time in a conciliatory and friendly way, or intended to
do so in using the word "negro", is, in our judgment, simply not credible. His evidence is
again inconsistent with the video footage. Once again, there was no satisfactory
explanation for this inconsistency.

....

302. The position, therefore, is as follows. Mr Suarez spoke in Spanish to Mr Comolli soon after
the game about this serious allegation. Mr Suarez also spoke in Dutch to Mr Kuyt. Both
Mr Comolli and Mr Kuyt understood Mr Suarez to have told them that when he spoke to
Mr Evra he said words which translate into English as, "Because you are black". According
to Mr Suarez, Mr Comolli misheard what Mr Suarez said in Spanish, and Mr Kuyt
misheard what Mr Suarez said in Dutch.

Dublin_Gunner · 03-01-2012 02:05PM

#15 wrote: »

If you read the report you will see that objectivity was the relevant consideration, not subjectivity.

Secondly, if the headline on Sky said that he called Evra a black, would you be happier?

They wouldn't have though, as it wouldn't have the same sensationalist effect.

If you don't see the difference in how these two sentences are viewed, you're deluded.

Possible headlines:

"Suarez calls Evra 'a Negro'!"

"Suarez calls Evra a black man"

Now please tell me they didn't do that on purpose. Even the inclusion of 'a', pigeon-holing it straight into racist terminology, when that was never said.

SlickRic · 03-01-2012 02:08PM

DDC1990 wrote: »

Evra lying is not unlikely in the slightest.

what has Evra to gain?

the only thing he has to gain, is to generally just be a cúnt and píss off a lot of people.

Suarez isn't lying, he did use it in a Spanish context, but that was a moronic thing to do, and it can't be allowed or forgiven. if he said "negro" he still referenced his skin colour, which he should know better than to do.

they were riling each other up, and Suarez, ignorantly or not, went too far. simple as. they have to hand out this punishment to help deter it in the future. i just hope this evidence they have is pretty good, but i suspect it would have to be.

Suarez isn't a racist IMO, he's just a very stupid, ignorant and naughty boy...who likes to get under people's skin (pun intended

), and went too far.

Racism - Mod Note on 1st Post - Read before posting.

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