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Transgender 7 year old??

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    #62
    iguana
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 12,915 Mod ✭✭✭✭iguana


    While I see no reason that the child may not be genuinely transgendered I do agree with Skylops point that it was not a good move for the mother to bring this to the press. The child may well be old enough to identify as female but at seven is certainly not old enough to understand the implications that appearing on television and in other media about being transgendered may have and the mother should not have let that happen, no matter how much Bobby wanted to join the girl scouts.


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    #63
    L.Jenkins
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 19,240 Mod ✭✭✭✭L.Jenkins


    ScumLord wrote: »
    I think it would be very possible to convince a child that any type of sexuality is normal or allowed. Children are a blank slate they believe whatever their told. Just like gay men spent century being told the should like women and believed it no matter how bad it made them feel. I'm certain there are instances of people forcing their children to act like the other sex.

    Yeah it's call reparitive therapy which is extremely invasion and dehumanising.


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    #64
    Tonyandthewhale
    Registered Users Posts: 1,867 ✭✭✭Tonyandthewhale


    Seachmall wrote: »
    My scepticism of the whole thing is the 2 year old part. As stated a 2 year old is barely self-aware. If you're barely aware of the fact you exist or you're human you won't be aware of the nuances of gender identity.

    I think it's pretty obvious the child in question doesn't understand the 'nuances of gender,' she's confused about simple things like the significance of having a boy's name and dress and such. This doesn't mean she doesn't genuinely feel umcomfortable with the idea of being male or genuinely feel more comfortable with femininity or being female.

    You don't have to have an in depth knowledge of gender and sexuality and transgender issues to know that when someone tells you you're a boy and you should like boy thing X that you don't feel like a boy, don't associate yourself with the other children identified as boys and much prefer girl thing Y.
    For instance a child doesn't have to know the eitemology of depression to know they're not as happy as they should be and that there's something wrong (Not that depression is directly analoguous to transgenderism, just that it's possible to genuinely exhibit problems related to a concept without fully understanding it).

    There are a wide variety of hormonal, genetic and environmental factors which all impose a valid influence of on a person's overt physical gender manifestation as well as the more important personal sexual concept we all create for ourselves starting at 2, 3, 4 years old and continuing pretty much right throughout our lives.
    This range of factors means the divide between male and female is always going to be somewhat blurry (which is why it's not the same (unless you have shark DNA) as wanting to be a shark, as one poster suggested).
    This is something every parent should be aware of, the genitals you come out of the womb with are not the final arbitrares of gender. As a parent it is your job to guide you child towards developing a coherent self-image, including a gender-concept.
    If your child is transgendered you do not ignore it or repress it and if it's merely gender confusion you should identify where this confusion arises from and try and resolve it one way or another. You do not just tell your child you're male or you're female and that's the end of it, because they mightn't be.
    You certainly don't take the judgement of the local girl scout troop leader as being infalliable.


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    #65
    RichieC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,333 ✭✭✭RichieC


    desertcircus wrote: »
    RichieC wrote: »
    Can't believe this is being defended.

    There's such a thing as being so liberal your brain falls out...

    poor fking child :(

    Do you have a point to go with that?

    I do. this is child abuse.


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    #66
    Millicent
    Registered Users Posts: 4,559 ✭✭✭Millicent


    RichieC wrote: »
    I do. this is child abuse.

    Why?


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    #67
    L.Jenkins
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 19,240 Mod ✭✭✭✭L.Jenkins


    RichieC wrote: »
    I do. this is child abuse.

    Your comparison of supporting ones self identity to beating a child around the place is alittle off there buddy :rolleyes:


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    #68
    Seachmall
    Registered Users Posts: 7,041 ✭✭✭Seachmall


    iguana wrote: »
    It says the exact opposite of your assertion.

    No, it states "Children begin to..." and are "likely to show..." awareness and independence. Both of which strongly imply 2 is the age at which these things develop, hence it supports my point.

    My statements of self-awareness never suggested they were not aware of themselves, but that the were in developmental stages which is correct. They do not become "highly aware" (as you suggested) until the ages of 4-5.

    "All parents also notice an important change at around 2 years of age when children manifest ‘‘self-consciousness,’’ the so-called secondary emotions such as embarrassment or pride in very specific situations such as mirror exposure or competitive games (Kagan, 1984; Lewis, 1992). Prior to the second year, an infant placed in front of a mirror will typically smile, coo, and explore in apparent delight of the perfect contingency between acted and seen movements bouncing back at them from the polished surface of the mirror (Amsterdam, 1972). By 2 years, the specular image is associated with radically different behaviors. Toddlers become typically frozen and sometime behave as if they wanted to hide themselves by tucking their head in their shoulders or hiding their face behind their hands. They show embarrassment. This is a robust phenomenon and one is naturally tempted to ask what it means psychologically for children in their development."

    - Five levels of self-awareness as they unfold early in life [PDF]


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    #69
    desertcircus
    Registered Users Posts: 2,648 ✭✭✭desertcircus


    RichieC wrote: »
    I do. this is child abuse.

    That's not a point, that's an inflammatory claim made without recourse to supporting facts from the case, supporting evidence from medical literature, or indeed anything whatsoever. Seriously: can you at least make some effort to explain what makes you think it's child abuse?


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    #70
    L.Jenkins
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 19,240 Mod ✭✭✭✭L.Jenkins


    In my opinion, it would be a greater abuse of their child not to allow her to explore her own identity. If at a later stage she feels it's not for her, then so be it. I couldn't imagine any parent pushing Trangenderism on any child, especially when mine flipped the fúck out.

    As for bringing it to the attention of the media, it is just a tad bit irresponsible of her parents, but they may have felt it brought about awareness and treatment received by their child at the hands of an organisation.


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    #71
    Seachmall
    Registered Users Posts: 7,041 ✭✭✭Seachmall


    Tonyandthewhale wrote: »
    You don't have to have an in depth knowledge of gender and sexuality and transgender issues to know that when someone tells you you're a boy and you should like boy thing X that you don't feel like a boy, don't associate yourself with the other children identified as boys and much prefer girl thing Y.

    No, but these things don't make you transgender. It is, presumably, the emotional awareness, not the material things that are important.

    When I was young I played with dolls simply because I have an older sister and so dolls were always around and I was babysat in a house that was all girls. I was more familiar with the dolls, I was not transgender.

    It is the nuances that make the distinction, not the perceived gender roles. I don't like cars or sports, I do not want to be a woman.

    Maybe the child is in fact gay, not transgender. They're not synonymous but if they parents thought the were they could be pushing the child into this role.


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    #72
    pickarooney
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,311 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    I'm having trouble working out the most PC approach to this subject. Is it possible to support the hypothesis of transgenderism in infants without tacitly perpetuating the notion of natural gender roles in children such as what toys to play with or what clothes to wear?


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    #73
    RichieC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,333 ✭✭✭RichieC


    desertcircus wrote: »
    RichieC wrote: »
    I do. this is child abuse.

    That's not a point, that's an inflammatory claim made without recourse to supporting facts from the case, supporting evidence from medical literature, or indeed anything whatsoever. Seriously: can you at least make some effort to explain what makes you think it's child abuse?

    I seriously need to explain why giving a seven year old child a sex change is child abuse? Have i woke up in crazy land?


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    #74
    CrazyRabbit
    Registered Users Posts: 8,659 ✭✭✭CrazyRabbit


    smash wrote: »
    The parents should be investigated to be honest. They're conditioning him to believe he's trans.

    Did your parents condition you to be straight? (Assuming you are). Did they condition you to identify yourself as male/female, whichever you are?

    I really doubt it's a case of the boys parents 'forcing' him to be like a girl and like 'girly' things.

    Whatever the rights/wrongs of this, let's not go blaming the parents. This is obviously something that just happened...a genetic fluke, or some unintended environmental influence.


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    #75
    L.Jenkins
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 19,240 Mod ✭✭✭✭L.Jenkins


    Seachmall wrote: »
    No, but these things don't make you transgender. It is, presumably, the emotional awareness, not the material things that are important.

    When I was young I played with dolls simply because I have an older sister and so dolls were always around and I was babysat in a house that was all girls. I was more familiar with the dolls, I was not transgender.

    It is the nuances that make the distinction, not the perceived gender roles. I don't like cars or sports, I do not want to be a woman. How does a 2 year old make this decision?

    Maybe the child is in fact gay, not transgender. They're not synonymous.

    As a child, it's not about the toys you play with but how you relate to and perceive those objects. Toss 2 children, a boy and girl, a ball or cardboard box and you'll see the difference in how they use those items.


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    #76
    Millicent
    Registered Users Posts: 4,559 ✭✭✭Millicent


    RichieC wrote: »
    I seriously need to explain why giving a seven year old child a sex change is child abuse? Have i woke up in crazy land?

    What?! Have you read the article? There was no sex change, just a child born male wanting to be accepted as female in the Scouts.


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    #77
    yawha
    Closed Accounts Posts: 695 ✭✭✭yawha


    Why is it that when a girl likes football, wearing trousers and having short hair, she's just a girl who likes those things, maybe called a tomboy, but when a boy likes ponies, dresses and princesses he's considered transgendered?

    And since when has gender anything to do with clothing, or behaviour, or activities one likes, or role in society? This continually wrecks my head in any article I read about transgenderism. I can't abide all this "Little Johnny wasn't like all the other boys, he preferred to play with dolls while the others were playing with cars" shite. Give me a convincing argument that the child in question is actually transgendered, don't just tell me their behaviours and interests didn't conform to gender stereotypes and thus they're obviously transgendered.


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    #78
    Seachmall
    Registered Users Posts: 7,041 ✭✭✭Seachmall


    ItsThatManAgain wrote: »
    As a child, it's not about the toys you play with but how you relate to and perceive those objects. Toss 2 children, a boy and girl, a ball or cardboard box and you'll see the difference in how they use those items.

    But once again a 2 or 3 year old drawing a flower or wearing a dress does not make him transgender.

    At some stage the child would be able to make that distinction but not likely at 2 years old. His parents may have unintentionally made that decision for him and he learned to believe it.

    Once again, I'm not saying he's not transgender just that my scepticism here is entirely justified.


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    #79
    Tonyandthewhale
    Registered Users Posts: 1,867 ✭✭✭Tonyandthewhale


    RichieC wrote: »
    I seriously need to explain why giving a seven year old child a sex change is child abuse? Have i woke up in crazy land?

    Seemingly, yes you have woken up in crazyland. The issue at hand is entry into a girl scout's troop, not a sex change operation or hormonal treatments or anything like that.


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    #80
    L.Jenkins
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 19,240 Mod ✭✭✭✭L.Jenkins


    RichieC wrote: »
    I seriously need to explain why giving a seven year old child a sex change is child abuse? Have i woke up in crazy land?

    Ha, yeah I just spotted this one. Firstly no child would ever be put through surgery like SRS, EVER!!!! Secondly, the child would be assessed and so would the parents to ensure that such claims were genuine and if it really is what the child wants. Then at the time of puberty the child being given a diagnosis could potentially start HRT. No surgery would ever be given to any child under 18 without parental consent or court order.


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    #81
    iguana
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 12,915 Mod ✭✭✭✭iguana


    pickarooney wrote: »
    I'm having trouble working out the most PC approach to this subject. Is it possible to support the hypothesis of transgenderism in infants without tacitly perpetuating the notion of natural gender roles in children such as what toys to play with or what clothes to wear?

    Of course it is. When I was a child I loved 'boy stuff' far more than most 'girl stuff' but I never, ever wanted to be a boy. I loved being a girl and thought being a girl was not only fantastic but had a long list of reasons why being a girl was in fact much better than being a boy.

    There is a very, very big difference between preferring much/all of the 'lifestyle' associated with the opposite gender and wanting to be the opposite gender.


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    #82
    L.Jenkins
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 19,240 Mod ✭✭✭✭L.Jenkins


    Seachmall wrote: »
    But once again a 2 or 3 year old drawing a flower or wearing a dress does not make him transgender.

    At some stage the child would be able to make that distinction but not likely at 2 years old. His parents may have unintentionally made that decision for him and he learned to believe it.

    Once again, I'm not saying he's not transgender just that my scepticism here is entirely justified.

    I actually have a good memory of my childhood and know that my first experiences of gender dysphoria began at 3.


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    #83
    Millicent
    Registered Users Posts: 4,559 ✭✭✭Millicent


    yawha wrote: »
    Why is it that when a girl likes football, wearing trousers and having short hair, she's just a girl who likes those things, maybe called a tomboy, but when a boy likes ponies, dresses and princesses he's considered transgendered?

    It's a little bit societal misconception that boys who like "feminine" things must be transgendered; on the other hand, in both of your examples, it is up to the child to identify as transgender, not a label that should be forced on her/him.


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    #84
    CrazyRabbit
    Registered Users Posts: 8,659 ✭✭✭CrazyRabbit


    later10 wrote: »
    Surely it is quite possible this child is transgender.

    I can't say I know a lot about gender disorders, but I don't see why the child shouldn't just be him or herself until s/he reaches their majority (18 or 21) and then decide their own future.

    If the kid really really wants to wear dresses and play with a mini-oven, so be it.

    Gender disorder? Makes it sound so negative :D

    Reading through the above posts in this thread, I don't really see what the big problem is. If it makes Bobby happy & doesn't harm anyone, then what's the big deal?


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    #85
    Tonyandthewhale
    Registered Users Posts: 1,867 ✭✭✭Tonyandthewhale


    Seachmall wrote: »
    No, but these things don't make you transgender. It is, presumably, the emotional awareness, not the material things that are important.

    When I was young I played with dolls simply because I have an older sister and so dolls were always around and I was babysat in a house that was all girls. I was more familiar with the dolls, I was not transgender.

    It is the nuances that make the distinction, not the perceived gender roles. I don't like cars or sports, I do not want to be a woman.

    Maybe the child is in fact gay, not transgender. They're not synonymous but if they parents thought the were they could be pushing the child into this role.

    I didn't say it was just material things, and the article did not suggest that it was just material. I said there's the act of rejecting the designation of male, rejecting an association with other males and rejecting the suggestion that they should like male thing X (which could be material or behavioural).

    From the limited information we have of this case it doesn't seem like the child just prefered playing with dolls and the parents took that as a sign that the child was transgendered.
    More likely (as ItsThatManAgain) the child also showed a different interaction with toys and peers than would be typical for a boy who's just playing with what's available. I mean it's possible I'm wrong, maybe the child picked up a doll one day and Mammy said "son, do you think you're a girl?"and it sprung from there. But there's no evidence to suggest that is there?


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    #86
    jive
    Registered Users Posts: 5,762 ✭✭✭jive


    Firstly, he couldn't possibly be aware if he's transgender or not; at that age you can't comprehend phucking anything, you're thick as shít. Secondly, activities such as playing with ponies aren't a contributing factor to being transgender IMO - just because you like an activity associated with a certain gender doesn't mean you're phucking transgender. Thirdly, if he actually does grow up and knows he is transgender then who gives a shít; he won't hurt anyone but himself undergoing ridiculous procedures to satisfy his mental illness.


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    #87
    L.Jenkins
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 19,240 Mod ✭✭✭✭L.Jenkins


    jive wrote: »
    Firstly, he couldn't possibly be aware if he's transgender or not; at that age you can't comprehend phucking anything, you're thick as shít. Secondly, activities such as playing with ponies aren't a contributing factor to being transgender IMO - just because you like an activity associated with a certain gender doesn't mean you're phucking transgender. Thirdly, if he actually does grow up and knows he is transgender then who gives a shít; he won't hurt anyone but himself undergoing ridiculous procedures to satisfy his mental illness.

    So what I'm going through is an attempt to satisfy a mental illness. Put down the bible son and find me a reputable source and I may change my ways.


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    #88
    30Min
    Closed Accounts Posts: 211 ✭✭30Min


    From what I have read in the article, it sounds like the kid feels normal and everyone else is saying there's something abnormal going on.


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    #89
    L.Jenkins
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 19,240 Mod ✭✭✭✭L.Jenkins


    yawha wrote: »
    Give me a convincing argument that the child in question is actually transgendered, don't just tell me their behaviours and interests didn't conform to gender stereotypes and thus they're obviously transgendered.

    Since our last engagement, it's obvious that you've done little reading to educate yourself. The male and female are of course made up of the same mushy material, but are structured in two different ways. Areas of the brain that would give rise to one identifying as a female would be the same for me, as it would for any female.

    It can also be shown that ones area of the brain that controls sexual attration is the same size in gay males as it is in straight females. So it's alittle flippant to dismiss transsexuality as a disorder or mental illness previously tossed around this evening.


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    #90
    yawha
    Closed Accounts Posts: 695 ✭✭✭yawha


    Millicent wrote: »
    It's a little bit societal misconception that boys who like "feminine" things must be transgendered; on the other hand, in both of your examples, it is up to the child to identify as transgender, not a label that should be forced on her/him.
    But how do you decide that a child has identified as transgender or not?

    Based on this article, I see nothing but "the child does not conform to gender stereotypes, therefore child is transgender" logic. I see this in pretty much all articles on transgenderism (hell, I see it a lot from transgender people on transgender forums online). It baffles me.


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    #91
    jive
    Registered Users Posts: 5,762 ✭✭✭jive


    ItsThatManAgain wrote: »
    So what I'm going through is an attempt to satisfy a mental illness. Put down the bible son and find me a reputable source and I may change my ways.

    Why are you changing your body then? No need to be such a condescending prat, btw. As you should know, many believe that it is a mental illness and are well entitled to that opinion given what is known about it.


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