Transgender 7 year old??

Seachmall

Felisha Archuleta, whose child was rejected by a Denver Girl Scout troop because he has "boy parts," said she is still waiting for an official call -- and an apology -- from the Colorado Girl Scouts.

Archuleta asked a local troop leader if her transgender son could join the Girl Scouts but was initially rejected. Later, a supervisor from the Colorado Girl Scouts acknowledged the organization would include the 7-year-old. But Archuleta is still awaiting the final word.

"They haven't called me directly," said Archuleta. "When I talked to the top [person], I said Bobby wants to be in the Girl Scouts, but have a different leader. She never called me back and only said they would give [the local leader who rejected him] sensitivity classes."

Bobby Montoya was born with male genitalia but has been convinced since the age of 2 that he is a girl. His biggest worry, said his mother, is that he will have to change his name.

"I believe he was born in the wrong body," said Archuleta, who admitted that even she has difficulty switching from male to female pronouns when talking about her son.

"I thought Bobby would grow out of it," she said. "For birthdays, he asked for ponies. He had a princess birthday, and last year when he turned 7, he had a Rapunzel birthday. I have just basically supported him."

Three weeks ago, Archuleta approached a local Girl Scout leader who only identified herself as "Mary" and asked if Bobby could join the troop. Bobby's mother said the troop leader "humiliated" Bobby, and he dissolved into tears.

The Girl Scouts of Colorado has said publicly it supports transgender children, and it released a statement this week saying the group is "an inclusive organization."

The statement, released by the Gay & Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation, reads: 'If a child identifies as a girl and the child's family presents her as a girl, Girl Scouts of Colorado welcomes her as a Girl Scout."

The Girl Scouts of Colorado also said in its statement that it is "reaching out to the family of the excluded child and will be altering its training programs so that all girls are supported."

Archuleta said she still doesn't know what the Girl Scouts intends to do about Bobby and the leader. She also questions why "it's such a big deal.

"He dresses like a girl, and you can't tell he is a girl?" said his mother. "But the Girl Scout leader told us he can't join because he has 'boy parts.'... But no one would know he's a boy unless they pulled his pants down."

Archuleta said the troop leader also asked her, "What do you call it, a boy or a girl?" referring to Bobby. "I told her, 'Excuse me?' Then she fixed it and said, 'Bobby. You can see that's a boy's name, and everyone will know he's a boy.'"

After hearing that exchange, Bobby was "in tears," Archuleta said. "He kept asking, 'Do I have to change my name?' They were only making s'mores! She humiliated him in front of everyone. Actually, I had to stop her in her words. He was standing right there. I told Bobby to go wait in the hallway."

Bobby has told his mother he believed he was a girl ever since he was very young, said Archuleta. "He just liked girl stuff. When he was 4 or 5, he asked me, 'Why didn't you make me a girl?'"

Until now, Bobby has dressed as a boy in school, but he wore a dress to school one day and was teased, said Archuleta. Since the confrontation with the Girl Scouts, Bobby has identified and dressed as a girl in public.

- Source

Is it even possible for a 7 year old to be that aware? Even still, should a 7 year old be making such a decision? Are they really mature enough?

And the big question for me is how in the fuck does a 2 year old know it's the wrong gender?!

Everything about this story is just bizarre, I can't make head nor tail of it.


EDIT - They accepted Bobby, at the cost of some scout leaders.

SEPT 23 1989

America:(

smash

That's just weird.

ScumLord

Seachmall wrote: »

Is it even possible for a 7 year old to be that aware? Even still, should a 7 year old be making such a decision? Are they really mature enough?

Probably not, he can't know for sure until he goes through puberty. He obviously enjoys female programming but I don't think anything could be said about his sexuality just yet.

CardBordWindow

Normally a confused child is confused about which powerpuff girl/power ranger is their favourite, and not their gender.

pickarooney

Obviously if he likes ponies and dolls he's transgender.

It's almost enough to make me use rolleyes.

Almost.

Sonics2k

*gets popcorn*

Coriolanus

Bobby in home and away was hot and she had girl parts. Take that girl scouts!

John Doe1

Sounds to me like the kid wanted to score some girl scouts but was just awful at excuses.:D

cynder

wasnt their a simular case in england a few years back, the male born child dressed as a girl and changed his name to a females name and even had the sex on his birth cert changed to female. think he was around 11. must go see if i can find it.

FatherLen

sounds like a really bad parenting job

syklops

I love how they are sending the girl scout leader who rejected him for sensitivity training but no-one has suggested to the poor boys mother that she should go get some training of her own. If he is gender confused, making a big hoo-ha about him/her not getting into the scouts is the tip of the iceburg when it comes to how clueless she is.

cynder

found it http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/2645444/Gender-swap-boy-aged-9-is-a-girl.html

Also another one
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2038392/Why-I-let-son-live-girl-Mother-boy-returned-school-skirt.html

Also this one from austraila, http://www.christian.org.uk/news/judge-allows-sex-change-for-10-year-old-boy

smash

The parents should be investigated to be honest. They're conditioning him to believe he's trans.

syklops

grindelwald wrote: »

found it http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/2645444/Gender-swap-boy-aged-9-is-a-girl.html

Ah, the Sun. A bastion of truth and honour.

later12

Surely it is quite possible this child is transgender.

I can't say I know a lot about gender disorders, but I don't see why the child shouldn't just be him or herself until s/he reaches their majority (18 or 21) and then decide their own future.

If the kid really really wants to wear dresses and play with a mini-oven, so be it.

ScumLord

smash wrote: »

The parents should be investigated to be honest. They're conditioning him to believe he's trans.

That could be the problem.

Superbus

He's a Bobby girl, in a Bobby world.

curlzy

:rolleyes::mad: Yes any age person can know when they're in the wrong body. And yes it's "weird", as in it's uncommon. Jesus the ingnorance around this subject really is shocking, I suggest you educate yourself before commenting/condemning people. I assume I'm wasting my breathe but if you want to educate yourself I would suggest you look into books and documentaries on transgender people and Disturbance in Sexual Developement Disorders (DSDD). That is unless you want to rabble rabble about a child that is already up against all kinds of ignorance, which is probably the whole point of this thread:(.

ejmaztec

later10 wrote: »

Surely it is quite possible this child is transgender.

I can't say I know a lot about gender disorders, but I don't see why the child shouldn't just be him or herself until s/he reaches their majority (18 or 21) and then decide their own future.

If the kid really really wants to wear dresses and play with a mini-oven, so be it.

They should let him/her meet that other kid whose parents refused to own up to their child's gender because they didn't want him/her conditioned. They can then both be confused together.

syklops

curlzy wrote: »

:rolleyes::mad: Yes any age person can know when they're in the wrong body. And yes it's "weird", as in it's uncommon. Jesus the ingnorance around this subject really is shocking, I suggest you educate yourself before commenting/condemning people. I assume I'm wasting my breathe but if you want to educate yourself I would suggest you look into books and documentaries on transgender people and Disturbance in Sexual Developement Disorders (DSDD). That is unless you want to rabble rabble about a child that is already up against all kinds of ignorance, which is probably the whole point of this thread:(.

To be fair, the ignorance on the matter is not that shocking. Its a very uncommon situation.

Also, I am yet to see a post here condemning the child in question. I, personally was condemning the mother for letting the media find out about it.

Ficheall

curlzy wrote: »

:rolleyes::mad: Yes any age person can know when they're in the wrong body.

How does someone know when they're in the wrong body, exactly? How does one know when one is in the right body? How does one define someone's body as being right or wrong?
I've always felt I should be taller and more muscular with a nine inch penis.

cynder

syklops wrote: »

Ah, the Sun. A bastion of truth and honour.

http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/12-year-old_school_boy_has_sex_change_in_Sussex,_England


I dont read the sun or any tabloid. I only watch sky news!

Seachmall

curlzy wrote: »

Yes any age person can know when they're in the wrong body.

A 2 year old cannot possibly know that, they're barely self aware.

smash

curlzy wrote: »

:rolleyes::mad: Yes any age person can know when they're in the wrong body. And yes it's "weird", as in it's uncommon. Jesus the ingnorance around this subject really is shocking, I suggest you educate yourself before commenting/condemning people. I assume I'm wasting my breathe but if you want to educate yourself I would suggest you look into books and documentaries on transgender people and Disturbance in Sexual Developement Disorders (DSDD). That is unless you want to rabble rabble about a child that is already up against all kinds of ignorance, which is probably the whole point of this thread:(.

People are condemning the parents, not the child.

curlzy

Ficheall wrote: »

How does someone know when they're in the wrong body, exactly? How does one know when one is in the right body? How does one define someone's body as being right or wrong?
I've always felt I should be taller and more muscular with a nine inch penis.

I'm not here to educate you, if you want to be less ignorant on the subject look up some free documentaries on the subjects I mentioned. They're free to watch online. I'm sure everyone here would rather bash innocent people though so go ahead.

44leto

curlzy wrote: »

:rolleyes::mad: Yes any age person can know when they're in the wrong body. And yes it's "weird", as in it's uncommon. Jesus the ingnorance around this subject really is shocking, I suggest you educate yourself before commenting/condemning people. I assume I'm wasting my breathe but if you want to educate yourself I would suggest you look into books and documentaries on transgender people and Disturbance in Sexual Developement Disorders (DSDD). That is unless you want to rabble rabble about a child that is already up against all kinds of ignorance, which is probably the whole point of this thread:(.

Yeah its unbelievable, would they have the same attitude to a person born with another genetic disorder.

It seems in this age of equal rights and respect for minorities has gained ground for many groups the Transgenders is the last group that still have a fight on their hand.

Good luck to them.

curlzy

syklops wrote: »

To be fair, the ignorance on the matter is not that shocking. Its a very uncommon situation.

Yes actually it is very shocking, there is a ton of information for free online on this very subject, there's no excuse for this level of ignorance. Also if you're that ignorant you shouldn't be commenting at all.

syklops

curlzy wrote: »

Yes actually it is very shocking, there is a ton of information for free online on this very subject, there's no excuse for this level of ignorance. Also if you're that ignorant you shouldn't be commenting at all.

What am I 'ignorant' about? You are the one who is coming off as ignorant. I feel sorry for the child in question because he will have years of counseling and therapy ahead of him. I am also sorry for him that his mother allowed the situation get so blown out of proportion that the story has crossed the Atlantic and we are reading about it.

Start making sense as to how I am 'ignorant' or your going on the block list.

Millicent

FatherLen wrote: »

sounds like a really bad parenting job

Why does it? Would you know how to react in that situation? I certainly don't and I've a huge interest in transgender issues. Sounds like the parents are letting the kid develop to who she wants to be while lovingly supporting her decisions. If, in the future, she decides that she would rather identify as a male after deciding that the female gender does not feel right, so be it.

It sounds like pretty good parenting to me. A lot of people could learn from that mother's willingness to go to bat for her child and let her be who she wants to be, not who her parents have decided she should be.

cynder

later10 wrote: »

Surely it is quite possible this child is transgender.

I can't say I know a lot about gender disorders, but I don't see why the child shouldn't just be him or herself until s/he reaches their majority (18 or 21) and then decide their own future.

If the kid really really wants to wear dresses and play with a mini-oven, so be it.

Agree with you there. Why force him to act male and make him depressed, let him act female if it make him happy. When his older he can decide for himself. Very brave parents imho. good luck to them...

Seachmall

curlzy wrote: »

I'm not here to educate you, if you want to be less ignorant on the subject look up some free documentaries on the subjects I mentioned. They're free to watch online. I'm sure everyone here would rather bash innocent people though so go ahead.

You seem to be jumping the gun a bit, nobody is criticizing anything with regards to transgender.

The question is how a 2 year old knows it's the wrong gender when it's only learning it even exists? How does a 2 year old signify to it's parents that it's transgender? Playing with girls toys? Preferring "girl colours"? Of course not, because it can't.

kowloon

When I was that age I wanted to be a Shark. Things might have turned out differently if I had lived near Seaworld.
Instead my friends would make a boat out of bits of scrap wood and barrels with a stepladder for a mast and I'd circle around it trying to bite them while they would try to defend themselves with planks.

Ficheall

curlzy wrote: »

I'm not here to educate you, if you want to be less ignorant on the subject look up some free documentaries on the subjects I mentioned. They're free to watch online. I'm sure everyone here would rather bash innocent people though so go ahead.

I'm not trying to bash anyone. I've no interest in looking up documentaries - I was hoping you could be as succinct in explaining what you meant as you were in lumping what is evidently a whole pile of issues into simply "someone being in the wrong body".

L.Jenkins

Seachmall wrote: »

- Source

Is it even possible for a 7 year old to be that aware? Even still, should a 7 year old be making such a decision? Are they really mature enough?

Yes it is possible at that age as children become increasingly aware of their own gender and identity.

smash wrote: »

The parents should be investigated to be honest. They're conditioning him to believe he's trans.

It's not something any child or adult can be convinced to believe, so I say they should be allowed to get on with it.

Millicent

ItsThatManAgain wrote: »

Yes it is possible at that age as children become increasingly aware of their own gender and identity.

Gender identity, IIRC, comes at about 3 or 4 when the child begins to become curious about their and others' bodies.

cynder

Millicent wrote: »

Gender identity, IIRC, comes at about 3 or 4 when the child begins to become curious about their and others' bodies.

I recall Brad Pitts /Angelina Jolies daughter Shiloh like to dress as a boy, and they let her. She is only 5 but has wanted to dress like aboy for a year or 2.. A very happy 5 year old. If she is happy leave her at it.

syklops

Millicent wrote: »

Gender identity, IIRC, comes at about 3 or 4 when the child begins to become curious about their and others' bodies.

EDIT: Please disregard this post. People more educated than me have proved me wrong(mostly)

No offense, but are you not getting a bit mixed up. I didnt get curious about other peoples bodies until I was at least about 9 and I dont think I am in a minority there.

Gender identity is very different from curiosity about others' bodies.

Seachmall

ItsThatManAgain wrote: »

It's not something any child or adult can be convinced to believe, so I say they should be allowed to get on with it.

I'd say there isn't much that a 7 year old wouldn't believe if it grew up being told it as a fact.

Hell, you could convince a kid a magic man is watching them all the time and climbs down their chimney at the end of the year and they'd think that's completely normal.

L.Jenkins

syklops wrote: »

No offense, but are you not getting a bit mixed up. I didnt get curious about other peoples bodies until I was at least about 9 and I dont think I am in a minority there.

Gender identity is very different from curiosity about others' bodies.

You're confusing gender and sexuality even though you try to make the same point. Interest in other people is sexual, while your own sense of self deals with your gender, which you become aware of.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Jesus H .. "boy parts" :rolleyes:

Yes you can be aware of gender differences at 7, plenty of girls play football and that age and plenty of boys play traditional girls games.

Millicent

syklops wrote: »

No offense, but are you not getting a bit mixed up. I didnt get curious about other peoples bodies until I was at least about 9 and I dont think I am in a minority there.

Gender identity is very different from curiosity about others' bodies.

I'm not. It's what we were taught in my first year in Psychology in college. We had a module on childhood development. That is the age psychiatrists say that children begin to become aware of gender difference. You may have just been a very innocent child. :pac:

Sonics2k

syklops wrote: »

No offense, but are you not getting a bit mixed up. I didnt get curious about other peoples bodies until I was at least about 9 and I dont think I am in a minority there.

Gender identity is very different from curiosity about others' bodies.

You seem to be thinking of sexuality.

My daughter, who's now 5, has recently noticed that my 2 year old son has some "extra" parts while they get their bath.
She's reached the age where she's starting to wonder about the differences between boys and girls.

L.Jenkins

Seachmall wrote: »

I'd say there isn't much that a 7 year old wouldn't believe if it's parents told it something with absolutely certainty.

Hell, you could convince a kid a magic man is watching them all the time and climbs down their chimney at the end of the year and they'd think that's completely normal.

Yes you can fool a child in to believing that you can shít a rabbit on command, but gender is built in. A child will delve into introspection like an Adult would and ask questions before making a conclusion. I think you give children very little credit for their ability to think for themselves.

ScumLord

ItsThatManAgain wrote: »

It's not something any child or adult can be convinced to believe, so I say they should be allowed to get on with it.

I think it would be very possible to convince a child that any type of sexuality is normal or allowed. Children are a blank slate they believe whatever their told. Just like gay men spent century being told the should like women and believed it no matter how bad it made them feel. I'm certain there are instances of people forcing their children to act like the other sex.

Seachmall

ItsThatManAgain wrote: »

Yes you can fool a child in to believing that you can shít a rabbit on command, but gender is built in. A child will delve into introspection like an Adult would and ask questions before making a conclusion. I think you give children very little credit for their ability to think for themselves.

In general people give themselves too much credit when it comes to thinking for themselves and a child more-so.

Some kids believe God has given them powers. Some adults believe they're no longer gay because a man shouted at them for one hour a week. This is something they feel to be true, they genuinely believe it. Of course it's horseshit but some believe these things to the point where they'll happily take their own lives and the lives of their children.

People can believe things that are absolutely not true, even when it's about themselves. And a 7 year old is definitely susceptible to this.


I'm not saying the kid isn't transgender, but it doesn't look like it's actually thought about it or genuinely become aware of it because the whole "since she was 2" thing is absolute bullshit and sounds like the type of thing a kid would make up because it's what their parents want to hear.

Millicent

Seachmall wrote: »

I'm not saying the kid isn't transgender, but it doesn't look like it's actually thought about it or genuinely become aware of it because the whole "since she was 2" thing is absolute bullshit and sounds like the type of thing a kid would make up because it's what their parents want to hear.

And you can say that without knowing either the child or the parents in question? What evidence have you got to back up that the child was under any duress from her parents?

Seachmall

Millicent wrote: »

And you can say that without knowing either the child or the parents in question? What evidence have you got to back up that the child was under any duress from her parents?

I'm not saying the child was under duress from their parents, the parents may genuinely believe the kid to be transgender and the kid, as kids do, picked up on it and began to believe it (most of our behaviours and beliefs are learned this way).

My scepticism of the whole thing is the 2 year old part. As stated a 2 year old is barely self-aware. If you're barely aware of the fact you exist or you're human you won't be aware of the nuances of gender identity.

Millicent

Seachmall wrote: »

I'm not saying the child was under duress from their parents, the parents may genuinely believe the kid to be transgender and the kid, as kids do, picked up on it and began to believe it (most of our behaviours and beliefs are learned this way).

My scepticism of the whole thing is the 2 year old part. As stated a 2 year old is barely self-aware. If you're barely aware of the fact you exist or you're human you won't be aware of the nuances of gender identity.

Considering the fact that gender identity begins at three, it's entirely plausible that the child began to self-identity as female from then. Before that, she may have displayed some "traditional" female behaviours that may have opened the door to her parents' belief, but not to the extent that they would have believed she was a girl.

To be honest, I have no idea whether this is a genuine case of a transgender child or just gender confusion but neither do you. No one but the child will be able to say for certain.

curlzy

syklops wrote: »

What am I 'ignorant' about? You are the one who is coming off as ignorant. I feel sorry for the child in question because he will have years of counseling and therapy ahead of him. I am also sorry for him that his mother allowed the situation get so blown out of proportion that the story has crossed the Atlantic and we are reading about it.

Start making sense as to how I am 'ignorant' or your going on the block list.

Wow, you can do that? Hmmm ah figured it out, considered yourself blocked so. Wow this function will make perusing boards alot less frustrating, just block the ignorant people , handy.

Seachmall

Millicent wrote: »

Considering the fact that gender identity begins at three, it's entirely plausible that the child began to self-identity as female from then. Before that, she may have displayed some "traditional" female behaviours that may have opened the door to her parents' belief, but not to the extent that they would have believed she was a girl.

To be honest, I have no idea whether this is a genuine case of a transgender child or just gender confusion but neither do you. No one but the child will be able to say for certain.

Of course, but it's a dangerous area none-the-less. I've no doubt that I could've been raised to believe I was something I wasn't, now whether I would have self-corrected in my later years I don't know but I can only imagine the unnecessary confusion it would have caused.

If the parents preemptively believed this kid was transgender before the kid even knew the child may have learnt to believe it. And I wouldn't take a 2,3 or 4 year old's word for it, they're too susceptible to the wants and expectations of their parents at that age (which set the foundations for beliefs in later years).