State allows prisoner on suicide watch kill himself.

Warper · 21-12-2011 01:41PM

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I presume you'll equally claim that the first death that he caused was the fault of the state as well ?

He was happy enough to cause two deaths (and attempted two more) and thankfully the second one wasn't an innocent bystander.

Good riddance.

You would make a great Guard or Nazi.

Wossack · 21-12-2011 01:42PM

Paddy De Plasterer wrote: »

If allowed is not the right word, what is - abdication of duty, totally negligent. Remember this poor unfortunate was on suicide watch.

I believe that if there was a report in the tabloids talking about the cost from the prison service from monitoring every prisoner on suicide watch every minute of every day, 365 days a year, you'd be complaining about that too.

MrStuffins · 21-12-2011 01:44PM

Warper wrote: »

You would make a great Guard or Nazi.

There is so much wrong with this post that I think my brain just fried!

Seachmall · 21-12-2011 01:44PM

Fear Uladh wrote: »

His family aren't.

I'm glad you pointed that out. It wasn't relevant to my point at all but I'm sure you felt it was, kudos.

prinz · 21-12-2011 01:48PM

Warper wrote: »

Its not rocket science. There was a high-risk of suicide in this case, any one could see that..

I wonder what percentage of people who express remorse, guilt and claim that they're not going to be able to live with themselves actually end up committing suicide.

Warper wrote: »

I presume the cells have cameras, if not why in Gods name was he not put in one...

I'd say you presume wrong. He was in a holding cell, not a secure facility for watching at-risk inmates.

Warper wrote: »

The fact that he was able to hang himself under suicide watch is an indictment to the people watching over him....

If it turns out that somebody wasn't doing their job and didn't check him at the appropriate times perhaps, but there is no indication of that whatsoever. Again, would you have somebody standing outside his cell, watching him every minute of the day?

prinz · 21-12-2011 01:50PM

Warper wrote: »

You would make a great Guard or Nazi.

I see the mentality now. :pac:..

Liam Byrne · 21-12-2011 01:56PM

Warper wrote: »

You would make a great Guard or Nazi.

Yeah, because Nazis only had opinions like that re murderers :rolleyes:

Congrats on the "most farcical post of the day" award.

Paddy De Plasterer · 21-12-2011 01:57PM

This is a tragic case for all involved. It was a crime of passion in the first instance, and Rogers was on suicide watch while in the care and custody of the state. The state failed, period.

MagicSean · 21-12-2011 02:01PM

The only way to prevent someone from committing suicide is to strap them to a bed naked. That's not allowed either though. If someone wants to kill themselves they will.

eviltwin · 21-12-2011 02:02PM

Tragic for the family he left behind but more tragic for the family of his victim. I prefer to give my sympathy to them and their dead son than this scumbag who cared nothing about the results of his actions.

paddydriver · 21-12-2011 02:06PM

The tax payer is the only winner in all this so lets not anyone lose sleep over it... unless your dole heads, but thats another differing thread for another day.

prinz · 21-12-2011 02:06PM

Paddy De Plasterer wrote: »

It was a crime of passion in the first instance....

Ah well that's alright then.

Bad Panda · 21-12-2011 02:13PM

Paddy De Plasterer wrote: »

The state is disgracefully negligent in allowing a prisoner on remand who was on suicide watch, kill himself in Cloverhill remand centre yesterday. A disgraceful derelection of duty by the state.

I'm glad he was successful. Another cent of my taxes won't be spent on keeping that scumbag locked up.

Logical Fallacy · 21-12-2011 02:19PM

Misticles wrote: »

I dont think that parents should be held respsonsilbe for their adult childrens actions - they are adults after all.

The prison system did that family an injustice by not supervising him when he clearly should have been. He murdered a person, that still does not mean that prison officers cannot adhere to their duties.

You seem to have some insider information.

How do you know he wasn't checked on every 15 mins as stipulated?

Batsy · 21-12-2011 02:25PM

Paddy De Plasterer wrote: »

The state is disgracefully negligent in allowing a prisoner on remand who was on suicide watch, kill himself in Cloverhill remand centre yesterday. A disgraceful derelection of duty by the state.

I agree with you. The prison should have prevented this coward from killing himself. He killed himself to get out of his punishment. The prison should have made sure he couldn't kill himself in order for him to continue rotting in prison.

MagicSean · 21-12-2011 02:25PM

Batsy wrote: »

I agree with you. The prison should have prevented this coward from killing himself. He killed himself to get out of his punishment. The prison should have made sure he couldn't kill himself in order for him to continue rotting in prison.

How and why?

Liam Byrne · 21-12-2011 02:31PM

Paddy De Plasterer wrote: »

This is a tragic case for all involved. It was a crime of passion in the first instance, and Rogers was on suicide watch while in the care and custody of the state. The state failed, period.

How come you're not claiming that the suicide was a "crime of passion" ?

minidazzler · 21-12-2011 02:35PM

Plumpynuter wrote: »

Its yer man who killed the GAA player in the Taxi.

I did hear on the radio last week before the murderer killed himself that he was on suicide watch. So the state did mess up in that case. I suppose if somebody is determined enough then they will do it. Sad case all round for the family's involved of the victim and the murderer.

The state didn't mess up, you have a 15 minute window from your last check, plenty of time.

Cee-Jay-Cee · 21-12-2011 02:42PM

I dont see the negligence in this case. he was checked on every 15minutes, would you rather someone was employed to keep constant watch on this person who murdered someone else in cold blood. Look at this way, the state wont have to fork out for his free legal aid and a murder case now.

I feel sorry for his family who not only have to live with the fact that he killed someone else but then killed himself and left them to deal with the sorry mess he has created.

The whole thing is terribly sad but to try and blame the state for this is wrong, if he hadnt killed someone in the first place then none of this would have happened. He's the author of his own misfortune....no one else is to blame.

Formosa · 21-12-2011 02:45PM

Misticles wrote: »

:rolleyes:

and rightly so! The prison fooked up and that guy would be alive had they done their job properly. Its not a case of an eye for an eye here.

His family are innocent victims here so they should be compensated for his death.

So two people die and the family of the one who killed the two of them should get money!!! How are things in La-La land?

prinz · 21-12-2011 02:45PM

I'd also argue that he has ruined enough lives as it is. Having someone sacked over the manner of his death is going t affect and possibly ruin many more.

pauliebdub · 21-12-2011 02:46PM

eviltwin wrote: »

Tragic for the family he left behind but more tragic for the family of his victim. I prefer to give my sympathy to them and their dead son than this scumbag who cared nothing about the results of his actions.

i have to agree with this, my sympathy goes to this guys victims who are denied justice because this coward took the easy way out and his family who have to live with what he has done.

player101 · 21-12-2011 02:59PM

For all who are simply pointing the finger at the prison officers, you have to remember this is a prison full of alot of not nice people, who knows what was happening elsewhere in the prison which stopped them being able to check this murderer, Irish prisons are hugely under staffed and really over crowded, yes the blame lies with the state for not supply proper isolation chambers or for sufficiently staffing the prisons, but again, they have to make cuts somewhere and i would rather they made cuts to prisons than hospitals? (as long as the staff were safe)

Andrew33 · 21-12-2011 03:02PM

NIMAN wrote: »

He admitted to murdering someone, and nearly murdering another two.

Forgive me if I don't lose any sleep over this 'person'.

Steady on, it was a crime of passion. People tend to do incredibly stupid things when it comes to affairs of the heart.

prinz · 21-12-2011 03:05PM

Andrew33 wrote: »

Steady on, it was a crime of passion. People tend to do incredibly stupid things when it comes to affairs of the heart.

I once drunk texted an ex. I didn't follow someone, ambush them, listen to them beg for their lives, shoot them with a shotgun, dget back in my car and drive away.

Johnny Foreigner · 21-12-2011 03:06PM

I have no sympathy for a murderer who commits suicide.
He was a coward who shot a good man in cold blood, injured a Taxi Driver; and a young woman.
No justice will bring back the man that was killed to his family.
He was not man enough to take the punishment for killing a man, so he committed suicide. That is no ones fault but his.
If you can't do the time, then don't do the crime. Simple.

Andrew33 · 21-12-2011 03:07PM

prinz wrote: »

I once drunk texted an ex. I didn't follow someone, ambush them, listen to them beg for their lives, shoot them with a shotgun, dget back in my car and drive away.

Look, I know what you're saying but love crimes are usually commited by non criminals.
BTW, how do you follow someone and ambush them?

Unavailable for Comment · 21-12-2011 03:08PM

Obviously the prison service doesn't have the resources to watch prisoners no matter how "distressed", 24 hours a day even if they do spit out a couple of maudling, self pitying platitudes at every opportunity.

If he was such a threat to his own life it amazes me that he presented himself to the Gardai and then spent upwards of a week in custody without any attenpts on himself.

If he was truly in the depths of "heartbroken" remorse then surely the time to off himself was before he went into custody or was the whole point of this to create a platform for him to spew his pathetic, self serving explanations for what was nothing more than a tawdry, jealous rage?

prinz · 21-12-2011 03:13PM

Andrew33 wrote: »

Look, I know what you're saying but love crimes are usually commited by non criminals.

Ya what now?

Andrew33 wrote: »

BTW, how do you follow someone and ambush them?

You follow them, wait until they are least expecting it, and then approach quickly to catch them off guard and unable to say, run, or avoid you. Like catching someone on the hop sitting in a parked car for example...

Rawhead · 21-12-2011 03:14PM

Firstly, until anyone knows the full details of what happened we should hold off on hanging anyone else here.
Secondly, anyone who knows anything about mental health or suicide will know that it is impossible to stop a determined person from committing suicide.
I do have a solution for Paddy de plaster and the rest of the genius's here though.

Place all prisoners on special observation (suicide watch) in cells with glass doors and place an officer outside each 24/7/365. Don't turn off the lights, EVER, for his own safety. Don't allow him shave (razors).
As anyone in the health profession will tell you the following are criteria for being on suicide watch.
Drug use
Depression
Life sentence
Long sentences over 10 yrs
Mental health issues
So now you have added 4,200 of the states 4,500 prisoners onto the suicide watch list you are going to need an awful lot of single cells.
You will also need to quadruple the number of prison officers to provide this cover you want.

Of course you could always be a realist and accept that sad though it is when dealing with violent, disturbed and bad people that bad things sometimes happen. The other point being that prison officers foil dozens of suicide attempts every year and this is never broadcast or acknowledged.

State allows prisoner on suicide watch kill himself.

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