State allows prisoner on suicide watch kill himself.

Paddy De Plasterer

The state is disgracefully negligent in allowing a prisoner on remand who was on suicide watch, kill himself in Cloverhill remand centre yesterday. A disgraceful derelection of duty by the state.

biko

Source? Also a person being on suicide watch probably wasn't "allowed" to kill himself but managed anyway somehow.

Birneybau

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/probe-into-failure-of-suicide-watch-on-hanged-shotgun-killer-2969507.html

TWO investigations were under way last night into the death of a shotgun killer, who hanged himself soon after a court appearance.

Accused Shane Rogers had been on suicide watch after warning last week that he could not live with himself following his arrest by gardai investigating the murder of GAA club star James Hughes.

His parents said last night that he was broken-hearted and full of remorse after the shooting.

Mr Rogers (32) was found dead by prison staff in a holding cell at Cloverhill courthouse in west Dublin at lunchtime, shortly after he had been remanded in custody until next month.

He had earlier been taken from his prison cell in the adjoining Cloverhill jail and brought through a tunnel to appear in the district court on a charge of murdering Mr Hughes (35), whom he regarded as a love rival.

Mr Hughes was hit by two blasts from a double barrelled shotgun as he was dropping a female friend home after a night out.

The victim had been sitting in a taxi with his friend, Patricia Byrne (21) outside her home at the quiet Cluain Ard, Lis na Dara estate, at Carrick Road, Dundalk, shortly before 4am on Sunday week.

She sustained minor injuries along with the taxi driver, Anthony Callan, from the initial blast. All three had been sitting in the front of the vehicle.

It is believed Mr Rogers had previously been in a relationship with Ms Byrne and became jealous when he spotted her socialising with her friend earlier in the night.

After he was cautioned by gardai in Dundalk station, he said: "I apologise to him and to his family and friends and to Trish Byrne.

"I am sorry for what I did. I cannot live with myself for doing this."

Mr Rogers, of Deery Terrace, Inniskeen, Co Monaghan, had been on suicide watch since he was remanded to Cloverhill prison last week when Judge Flann Brennan directed that he receive medical and psychiatric attention.

This meant that prison staff checked on him every 15 minutes while he was in his cell in the jail.

An internal investigation into his death by the Irish Prison Service will now determine whether he remained under observation yesterday while he was in the holding cell.

Mr Rogers was brought directly to the holding area after his court appearance and was found hanged from a light fitting when a prison officer checked on him at 12.50pm.

Staff immediately attempted to resuscitate him while they awaited an ambulance, which brought him to Tallaght hospital where he was pronounced dead shortly before 2pm.

Gardai investigating the murder were alerted and immediately notified the dead man's family.

Devastated

Last night his parents Sean and Mary said they were devastated by their son's death.

"We have only learned of Shane's death this afternoon and we are totally devastated and in total shock over his tragic death," they said.

"We would like to make it known that Shane had been broken-hearted over the death of Mr Hughes and the injuries to Ms Patricia Byrne and Mr Anthony Callan.

"Shane was totally remorseful over what happened in the tragic events that Sunday morning."

The couple said they were also broken-hearted over the death of Mr Hughes.

They made the comments in a statement issued through the family solicitor, Martin Crilly, who said he knew Mr Rogers for 15 years and described him as "the backbone of the family".

"I had the highest regard for him. He looked after the younger members of the family and he was loyal to his family," the solicitor added.

As a garda investigation into the suicide continued last night, members of the family travelled to Dublin for a post-mortem examination in Tallaght.

One of his brothers, Kevin, and a sister, Bernie, are travelling home from Australia for his funeral later in the week.

After the shooting in Dundalk, Mr Rogers had contacted gardai in Carrickmacross and presented himself there.

- Tom Brady Security Editor



Fairly tragic story all round.

Sir Oxman

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/1220/cloverhill.html

The Dundalk guy who killed another in a jealous rage last week.
Checked every 15 mins?

What a sad situation for both families and the woman.

NIMAN

He admitted to murdering someone, and nearly murdering another two.

Forgive me if I don't lose any sleep over this 'person'.

giles lynchwood

And the we the public will foot the bill for the enquiry that will follow,plus any compensation awarded to his family.

Wetai

I don't think 'allowed' is the right word, either. They hardly said "Here, have some rope, a knife[, etc]" or watched him as he killed himself.

Paddy De Plasterer

biko wrote: »

Source? Also a person being on suicide watch probably wasn't "allowed" to kill himself but managed anyway somehow.

http://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=rogers%20kills%20himself%20in%20cloverhill&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CBoQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fnewsfeed.eastcoast.fm%2F2011%2F12%2Finvestigations-underway-after-prisoner.html&ei=jr_xTpruIYPOhAfM9aDBAQ&usg=AFQjCNEfpFkt9fehHMbqssj8LkqXtR0UEA

yes he was on suicide watch, so any items like belt, sheets etc should have been removed.

Plumpynuter

Its yer man who killed the GAA player in the Taxi.

I did hear on the radio last week before the murderer killed himself that he was on suicide watch. So the state did mess up in that case. I suppose if somebody is determined enough then they will do it. Sad case all round for the family's involved of the victim and the murderer.

Seachmall

They didn't "allow" him, they were simply incompetent.

prinz

Hanged from a light fitting, meaning he could well have pull electrical wiring from the ceiling...

and holding cells are not specifically designed for being suicide-proof. Sounds to me like he would have done it sooner or later. Just a matter of when the opportunity arose. I don't see any disgraceful negligence tbh.

Misticles

giles lynchwood wrote: »

And the we the public will foot the bill for the enquiry that will follow,plus any compensation awarded to his family.

:rolleyes:

and rightly so! The prison fooked up and that guy would be alive had they done their job properly. Its not a case of an eye for an eye here.


His family are innocent victims here so they should be compensated for his death.

prinz

Misticles wrote: »

His family are innocent victims here so they should be compensated for his death.

..and they can hand it directly over to the real victims.

NIMAN

Nonsense, once again another example of when the bad in society are treated too well.

Why does money always make things better?

AnonoBoy

Allowed is not the right word to use.

howamidifferent

Misticles wrote: »

:rolleyes:




His family are innocent victims here so they should be compensated for his death.

And money will do that?

Meauldsegosha

Misticles wrote: »

giles lynchwood wrote: »

And the we the public will foot the bill for the enquiry that will follow,plus any compensation awarded to his family.

:rolleyes:

and rightly so! The prison fooked up and that guy would be alive had they done their job properly. Its not a case of an eye for an eye here.


His family are innocent victims here so they should be compensated for his death.

The innocent victim here is the person he killed.

Hannibal Smith

Misticles wrote: »

:rolleyes:

and rightly so! The prison fooked up and that guy would be alive had they done their job properly. Its not a case of an eye for an eye here.


His family are innocent victims here so they should be compensated for his death.

Not rightly so at all. A murderer kills himself, I don't see why anyone would waste time even giving him a second thought. He killed someone.

El Weirdo

TishyO wrote: »

The innocent victims here are the two people he killed.

You clearly didn't read the story.

jack presley

NIMAN wrote: »

He admitted to murdering someone, and nearly murdering another two.

Forgive me if I don't lose any sleep over this 'person'.

The guy obviously wasn't 'all there' and despite what he did, should have been protected from himself

prinz

It's a sorry excuse to have a pop at the gardaí and/or Prison Service.

prinz

jack presley wrote: »

The guy obviously wasn't 'all there' and despite what he did, should have been protected from himself

On what basis was he not 'all there'?

jack presley

prinz wrote: »

jack presley wrote: »

The guy obviously wasn't 'all there' and despite what he did, should have been protected from himself

On what basis was he not 'all there'?

I think anyone that is put on suicide watch isn't playing with the full deck

Sir Oxman

I'd guess beacuse he killed another man in an apparent jealous rage and afterwards had overwhelming guilt and remorse according to reports.

wyndham

prinz wrote: »

On what basis was he not 'all there'?

By definition, his actions previous to arrest were not those of a sane/right thinking individual and he had stated his intent to commit suicide.

jonnyfingers

I don't see a problem here. He did a terrible deed and took himself out of the equation. One less prisoner to house and feed I say.

prinz

Are we getting to the stage now where no one actually murders anyone anymore? Obviously he wasn't sane. Obviously the gangland killers aren't sane. Obviously the killers of gerry mccabe weren't sane.... Jesus wept. Is creating a billion dollar pyramid scheme the actions of a sane person? Is robbing a bank? Is raping someone?

Hannibal Smith

jack presley wrote: »

I think anyone that is put on suicide watch isn't playing with the full deck

you didn't just say that:cool:

Sir Oxman

I'm certainly not saying that!

msg11

NIMAN wrote: »

He admitted to murdering someone, and nearly murdering another two.

Forgive me if I don't lose any sleep over this 'person'.

I won't be losing any sleep, but I do feel sorry for both family's. One is after losing a son after getting shot, another one have lost a son that could have been saved had he got some help. The other guy could be also alive had the other got some help, clearly a few screws lose.

As for the girl at the center of this, well she won't be sleeping for a while after this. Boyfriend shot dead by and ex boyfriend, if my ex girlfriend was to do something like this, I wouldn't leave my house for a few years.

Sad situation really for both family's, I would also say the other family wanted justice but I really doubt they would want the other family too go thru the loss of a family member let alone a son.

Turnstyle

I do not think 'allowed' is the right word but it sounds like someone messed up...
He should have spent his life in prison paying a price but instead took the handy way out, pity he did not show his victim the same mercy he showed himself. Thoughts with both families involved, sad sad situation

Misticles

prinz wrote: »

..and they can hand it directly over to the real victims.

What?

Both familes are victims in this! They have lost a son.

So you are saying a family who loses a member through murder hurts more/grieves more than that of a family who has lost a son through suicide?

At the end of the day, death is death. A person is goen and can never come back, families will never get over it.

Head The Wall

We waste enough money imprisoning scum like this, having to have someone babysit them indefinitely is not something we should be wasting money on. That money would be better off donated to the samaritans etc.

Maybe this guy should have thought about the consequences of what he was doing before the fact, he has effectively wrecked a number of lives here whereas if he just committed suicide himself there would be less lives in turmoil.

I'm not advocating suicide here as it has happened close friends and family to me but as someone has already stated if someone wants to take their own life they will usually do it anyway.

Misticles

howamidifferent wrote: »

And money will do that?

No money wont do that but the state should net be let away this if it is proved that he was not checked on.

TishyO wrote: »

The innocent victim here is the person he killed.

Families who suffer the loss are also victims

My name is URL

This couldn't be in a less suitable forum than AH.. it's like a perfect storm for this place. Discussion about a recent murder, ineffective public service and the nuances of suicide in particular cases.

Actually it's perfect for AH =(

up for anything

Misticles wrote: »

:rolleyes:

and rightly so! The prison fooked up and that guy would be alive had they done their job properly. Its not a case of an eye for an eye here.


His family are innocent victims here so they should be compensated for his death.

There are quite a lot of posters here that think that parents should be held responsible for the actions of their young children so why should they not be held responsible for the actions of their adult children. That would cut the birth rate right down.

Misticles wrote: »

What?

Both familes are victims in this! They have lost a son.

So you are saying a family who loses a member through murder hurts more/grieves more than that of a family who has lost a son through suicide?

At the end of the day, death is death. A person is goen and can never come back, families will never get over it.

Yes, and why should suing the prison system make them feel any better. Would they have been able to keep any better a suicide watch on their son if they'd had him at home? Are the parents of the man he murdered in a fit of jealous rage able to sue anybody?

prinz

Misticles wrote: »

What? Both familes are victims in this! They have lost a son..

Yes they have. But who compensates the family of his murder victim? Who compensates the taxi driver and his family? Who compensates the young lady and her family?

Misticles wrote: »

So you are saying a family who loses a member through murder hurts more/grieves more than that of a family who has lost a son through suicide?

Given that it was already his stated intention I'd say his suicide came as less of a shock to his family, than a knock on the door from AGS to tell the other family that their son was blasted to death by a shotgun completely out of the blue. I am sure his family will hurt and grieve, but at the end of the day because of his actions.

Misticles

up for anything wrote: »

There are quite a lot of posters here that think that parents should be held responsible for the actions of their young children so why should they not be held responsible for the actions of their adult children. That would cut the birth rate right down.

Yes, and why should suing the prison system make them feel any better. Would they have been able to keep any better a suicide watch on their son if they'd had him at home? Are the parents of the man he murdered in a fit of jealous rage able to sue anybody?

I dont think that parents should be held respsonsilbe for their adult childrens actions - they are adults after all.

The prison system did that family an injustice by not supervising him when he clearly should have been. He murdered a person, that still does not mean that prison officers cannot adhere to their duties.

MrStuffins

Head The Wall wrote: »

We waste enough money imprisoning scum like this, having to have someone babysit them indefinitely is not something we should be wasting money on. That money would be better off donated to the samaritans etc.

So what's your alternative?

Misticles

prinz wrote: »

Yes they have. But who compensates the family of his murder victim? Who compensates the taxi driver and his family? Who compensates the young lady and her family?

Given that it was already his stated intention I'd say his suicide came as less of a shock to his family, than a knock on the door from AGS to tell the other family that their son was blasted to death by a shotgun completely out of the blue. I am sure his family will hurt and grieve, but at the end of the day because of his actions.

Nobody can compensate for a loss and I'm sure if legal proceedings take place that the family will have no interest in a monetary gain. They just want action against the system that failed their son.

Warper

prinz wrote: »

Hanged from a light fitting, meaning he could well have pull electrical wiring from the ceiling...

and holding cells are not specifically designed for being suicide-proof. Sounds to me like he would have done it sooner or later. Just a matter of when the opportunity arose. I don't see any disgraceful negligence tbh.

No negligence? The guy was on suicide watch being checked every 15 mins. Its scandalous what happened. He should never have been put in a room that he could pull wiring or whatever. All the signs were there - remorse, guilt etc..

A person who kills themselves whilst on suicide watch is negligenge no matter what way you look at it. A tragedy for all concerned.

MrStuffins

up for anything wrote: »

There are quite a lot of posters here that think that parents should be held responsible for the actions of their young children so why should they not be held responsible for the actions of their adult children. That would cut the birth rate right down.

Wait........... is this a serious question? Really?

I mean, really?

Seachmall

Misticles wrote: »

Both familes are victims in this! They have lost a son.

The man who killed himself was ultimately responsible for his actions. Sure, the prison system failed to keep him alive but he was the one who acted to take his life.

His family are victims of his actions.

giles lynchwood

Misticles wrote: »

:rolleyes:

and rightly so! The prison fooked up and that guy would be alive had they done their job properly. Its not a case of an eye for an eye here.


His family are innocent victims here so they should be compensated for his death.

I agree,but i think this is another example of negligence brought about by the job for life attutide within the civil service,if this was a private securty firm head´s would roll,which i doubt very much will happen in this case,hence the arrogant and cavalier approach of civil servant´s in Ireland to their work.

prinz

Misticles wrote: »

The prison system did that family an injustice by not supervising him when he clearly should have been. He murdered a person, that still does not mean that prison officers cannot adhere to their duties.

There's no indication that the prison service didn't fulfill their duties. Unless you want him babysat 24/7.

Warper

Head The Wall wrote: »

We waste enough money imprisoning scum like this, having to have someone babysit them indefinitely is not something we should be wasting money on. That money would be better off donated to the samaritans etc.

Maybe this guy should have thought about the consequences of what he was doing before the fact, he has effectively wrecked a number of lives here whereas if he just committed suicide himself there would be less lives in turmoil.

I'm not advocating suicide here as it has happened close friends and family to me but as someone has already stated if someone wants to take their own life they will usually do it anyway.

Ya that sounds like a great society you want there :rolleyes:

up for anything

Misticles wrote: »

I dont think that parents should be held respsonsilbe for their adult childrens actions - they are adults after all.

The prison system did that family an injustice by not supervising him when he clearly should have been. He murdered a person, that still does not mean that prison officers cannot adhere to their duties.

Well we'll have to wait for the, no doubt, very expensive enquiry into the affair to say for sure that the prison officers were guilt of dereliction of duty.

As for parents not being held responsible for their adult childrens actions, if that is the case why should the prison service be held responsible for the actions of an adult? It was his decision to commit suicide - why should anyone else be held responsible for it!

prinz

Misticles wrote: »

Nobody can compensate for a loss and I'm sure if legal proceedings take place that the family will have no interest in a monetary gain. They just want action against the system that failed their son.

What about the other family? Who do they now get to take action against? Oh wait, nobody because he has robbed them of their day in court along with everything else.

Warper wrote: »

No negligence? The guy was on suicide watch being checked every 15 mins. Its scandalous what happened..

...and? Does it take more than 15 minutes to kill yourself?

Warper wrote: »

He should never have been put in a room that he could pull wiring or whatever..

Ok, so we stick him in a straitjacket into a padded cell.. then you'll have people complaining about that.

Carter P Fly

Apparently the guy who killed himself was goaded into doing this by another person whos a bit of a sociopath and was so guilty afterwards the he wanted to (and succeed in ) kill himself.

So said sociopath gets off scott free for two murders.






Disclaimer: May be fictional, I've watched to many american crime shows of late

up for anything

MrStuffins wrote: »

Wait........... is this a serious question? Really?

I mean, really?

This is a discussion. I was just putting forward another point of view. If my son committed murder I would feel guilty and responsible for the rest of my life for his actions and be thinking as lots of parents think... "Where did I go wrong?".

MrStuffins

up for anything wrote: »

As for parents not being held responsible for their adult childrens actions, if that is the case why should the prison service be held responsible for the actions of an adult? It was his decision to commit suicide - why should anyone else be held responsible for it!

So, because you believe the prison service shouldn't be held culpible here, you think that parents should be held responsible for the actions of their adult children?

So if my father, 60 years old, decided to kill someone, they should punish my 85 year old grandmother?

Seriously?