State allows prisoner on suicide watch kill himself.

Misticles · 21-12-2011 01:10PM

prinz wrote: »

..and they can hand it directly over to the real victims.

What?

Both familes are victims in this! They have lost a son.

So you are saying a family who loses a member through murder hurts more/grieves more than that of a family who has lost a son through suicide?

At the end of the day, death is death. A person is goen and can never come back, families will never get over it.

Head The Wall · 21-12-2011 01:11PM

We waste enough money imprisoning scum like this, having to have someone babysit them indefinitely is not something we should be wasting money on. That money would be better off donated to the samaritans etc.

Maybe this guy should have thought about the consequences of what he was doing before the fact, he has effectively wrecked a number of lives here whereas if he just committed suicide himself there would be less lives in turmoil.

I'm not advocating suicide here as it has happened close friends and family to me but as someone has already stated if someone wants to take their own life they will usually do it anyway.

Misticles · 21-12-2011 01:12PM

howamidifferent wrote: »

And money will do that?

No money wont do that but the state should net be let away this if it is proved that he was not checked on.

TishyO wrote: »

The innocent victim here is the person he killed.

Families who suffer the loss are also victims

My name is URL · 21-12-2011 01:13PM

This couldn't be in a less suitable forum than AH.. it's like a perfect storm for this place. Discussion about a recent murder, ineffective public service and the nuances of suicide in particular cases.

Actually it's perfect for AH =(

up for anything · 21-12-2011 01:15PM

Misticles wrote: »

:rolleyes:

and rightly so! The prison fooked up and that guy would be alive had they done their job properly. Its not a case of an eye for an eye here.

His family are innocent victims here so they should be compensated for his death.

There are quite a lot of posters here that think that parents should be held responsible for the actions of their young children so why should they not be held responsible for the actions of their adult children. That would cut the birth rate right down.

Misticles wrote: »

What?

Both familes are victims in this! They have lost a son.

So you are saying a family who loses a member through murder hurts more/grieves more than that of a family who has lost a son through suicide?

At the end of the day, death is death. A person is goen and can never come back, families will never get over it.

Yes, and why should suing the prison system make them feel any better. Would they have been able to keep any better a suicide watch on their son if they'd had him at home? Are the parents of the man he murdered in a fit of jealous rage able to sue anybody?

prinz · 21-12-2011 01:18PM

Misticles wrote: »

What? Both familes are victims in this! They have lost a son..

Yes they have. But who compensates the family of his murder victim? Who compensates the taxi driver and his family? Who compensates the young lady and her family?

Misticles wrote: »

So you are saying a family who loses a member through murder hurts more/grieves more than that of a family who has lost a son through suicide?

Given that it was already his stated intention I'd say his suicide came as less of a shock to his family, than a knock on the door from AGS to tell the other family that their son was blasted to death by a shotgun completely out of the blue. I am sure his family will hurt and grieve, but at the end of the day because of his actions.

Misticles · 21-12-2011 01:19PM

up for anything wrote: »

There are quite a lot of posters here that think that parents should be held responsible for the actions of their young children so why should they not be held responsible for the actions of their adult children. That would cut the birth rate right down.

Yes, and why should suing the prison system make them feel any better. Would they have been able to keep any better a suicide watch on their son if they'd had him at home? Are the parents of the man he murdered in a fit of jealous rage able to sue anybody?

I dont think that parents should be held respsonsilbe for their adult childrens actions - they are adults after all.

The prison system did that family an injustice by not supervising him when he clearly should have been. He murdered a person, that still does not mean that prison officers cannot adhere to their duties.

MrStuffins · 21-12-2011 01:21PM

Head The Wall wrote: »

We waste enough money imprisoning scum like this, having to have someone babysit them indefinitely is not something we should be wasting money on. That money would be better off donated to the samaritans etc.

So what's your alternative?

Misticles · 21-12-2011 01:21PM

prinz wrote: »

Yes they have. But who compensates the family of his murder victim? Who compensates the taxi driver and his family? Who compensates the young lady and her family?

Given that it was already his stated intention I'd say his suicide came as less of a shock to his family, than a knock on the door from AGS to tell the other family that their son was blasted to death by a shotgun completely out of the blue. I am sure his family will hurt and grieve, but at the end of the day because of his actions.

Nobody can compensate for a loss and I'm sure if legal proceedings take place that the family will have no interest in a monetary gain. They just want action against the system that failed their son.

Warper · 21-12-2011 01:22PM

prinz wrote: »

Hanged from a light fitting, meaning he could well have pull electrical wiring from the ceiling...

and holding cells are not specifically designed for being suicide-proof. Sounds to me like he would have done it sooner or later. Just a matter of when the opportunity arose. I don't see any disgraceful negligence tbh.

No negligence? The guy was on suicide watch being checked every 15 mins. Its scandalous what happened. He should never have been put in a room that he could pull wiring or whatever. All the signs were there - remorse, guilt etc..

A person who kills themselves whilst on suicide watch is negligenge no matter what way you look at it. A tragedy for all concerned.

MrStuffins · 21-12-2011 01:23PM

up for anything wrote: »

There are quite a lot of posters here that think that parents should be held responsible for the actions of their young children so why should they not be held responsible for the actions of their adult children. That would cut the birth rate right down.

Wait........... is this a serious question? Really?

I mean, really?

Seachmall · 21-12-2011 01:23PM

Misticles wrote: »

Both familes are victims in this! They have lost a son.

The man who killed himself was ultimately responsible for his actions. Sure, the prison system failed to keep him alive but he was the one who acted to take his life.

His family are victims of his actions.

giles lynchwood · 21-12-2011 01:23PM

Misticles wrote: »

:rolleyes:

and rightly so! The prison fooked up and that guy would be alive had they done their job properly. Its not a case of an eye for an eye here.

His family are innocent victims here so they should be compensated for his death.

I agree,but i think this is another example of negligence brought about by the job for life attutide within the civil service,if this was a private securty firm head´s would roll,which i doubt very much will happen in this case,hence the arrogant and cavalier approach of civil servant´s in Ireland to their work.

prinz · 21-12-2011 01:23PM

Misticles wrote: »

The prison system did that family an injustice by not supervising him when he clearly should have been. He murdered a person, that still does not mean that prison officers cannot adhere to their duties.

There's no indication that the prison service didn't fulfill their duties. Unless you want him babysat 24/7.

Warper · 21-12-2011 01:25PM

Head The Wall wrote: »

We waste enough money imprisoning scum like this, having to have someone babysit them indefinitely is not something we should be wasting money on. That money would be better off donated to the samaritans etc.

Maybe this guy should have thought about the consequences of what he was doing before the fact, he has effectively wrecked a number of lives here whereas if he just committed suicide himself there would be less lives in turmoil.

I'm not advocating suicide here as it has happened close friends and family to me but as someone has already stated if someone wants to take their own life they will usually do it anyway.

Ya that sounds like a great society you want there :rolleyes:

up for anything · 21-12-2011 01:25PM

Misticles wrote: »

I dont think that parents should be held respsonsilbe for their adult childrens actions - they are adults after all.

The prison system did that family an injustice by not supervising him when he clearly should have been. He murdered a person, that still does not mean that prison officers cannot adhere to their duties.

Well we'll have to wait for the, no doubt, very expensive enquiry into the affair to say for sure that the prison officers were guilt of dereliction of duty.

As for parents not being held responsible for their adult childrens actions, if that is the case why should the prison service be held responsible for the actions of an adult? It was his decision to commit suicide - why should anyone else be held responsible for it!

prinz · 21-12-2011 01:27PM

Misticles wrote: »

Nobody can compensate for a loss and I'm sure if legal proceedings take place that the family will have no interest in a monetary gain. They just want action against the system that failed their son.

What about the other family? Who do they now get to take action against?

Oh wait, nobody because he has robbed them of their day in court along with everything else.

Warper wrote: »

No negligence? The guy was on suicide watch being checked every 15 mins. Its scandalous what happened..

...and? Does it take more than 15 minutes to kill yourself?

Warper wrote: »

He should never have been put in a room that he could pull wiring or whatever..

Ok, so we stick him in a straitjacket into a padded cell.. then you'll have people complaining about that.

Carter P Fly · 21-12-2011 01:28PM

Apparently the guy who killed himself was goaded into doing this by another person whos a bit of a sociopath and was so guilty afterwards the he wanted to (and succeed in ) kill himself.

So said sociopath gets off scott free for two murders.

Disclaimer: May be fictional, I've watched to many american crime shows of late

up for anything · 21-12-2011 01:29PM

MrStuffins wrote: »

Wait........... is this a serious question? Really?

I mean, really?

This is a discussion. I was just putting forward another point of view. If my son committed murder I would feel guilty and responsible for the rest of my life for his actions and be thinking as lots of parents think... "Where did I go wrong?".

MrStuffins · 21-12-2011 01:29PM

up for anything wrote: »

As for parents not being held responsible for their adult childrens actions, if that is the case why should the prison service be held responsible for the actions of an adult? It was his decision to commit suicide - why should anyone else be held responsible for it!

So, because you believe the prison service shouldn't be held culpible here, you think that parents should be held responsible for the actions of their adult children?

So if my father, 60 years old, decided to kill someone, they should punish my 85 year old grandmother?

Seriously?

Paddy De Plasterer · 21-12-2011 01:31PM

If allowed is not the right word, what is - abdication of duty, totally negligent. Remember this poor unfortunate was on suicide watch.

MrStuffins · 21-12-2011 01:31PM

up for anything wrote: »

This is a discussion. I was just putting forward another point of view. If my son committed murder I would feel guilty and responsible for the rest of my life for his actions and be thinking as lots of parents think... "Where did I go wrong?".

There's a massive gulf of difference between wondering whather you raised a child right and actually pulling the trigger!

Your logic is nothing short of ridiculous!

MrStuffins · 21-12-2011 01:32PM

Paddy De Plasterer wrote: »

If allowed is not the right word, what is - abdication of duty, totally negligent. Remember this poor unfortunate was on suicide watch.

I have to believe you are not being 100% genuine here.

Fear Uladh · 21-12-2011 01:32PM

Seachmall wrote: »

The man who killed himself was ultimately responsible for his actions.

Yes he is.

His family aren't.

Ice87 · 21-12-2011 01:33PM

MrStuffins wrote: »

So, because you believe the prison service shouldn't be held culpible here, you think that parents should be held responsible for the actions of their adult children?

So if my father, 60 years old, decided to kill someone, they should punish my 85 year old grandmother?

Seriously?

Yes.

Lock her up.

Could you imagine the scenes down at Bingo on a Thursday night when she's getting taken away?:D

Liam Byrne · 21-12-2011 01:33PM

Paddy De Plasterer wrote: »

The state is disgracefully negligent in allowing a prisoner on remand who was on suicide watch, kill himself in Cloverhill remand centre yesterday. A disgraceful derelection of duty by the state.

I presume you'll equally claim that the first death that he caused was the fault of the state as well ?

He was happy enough to cause two deaths (and attempted two more) and thankfully the second one wasn't an innocent bystander.

Good riddance.

Liam Byrne · 21-12-2011 01:36PM

Misticles wrote: »

Nobody can compensate for a loss and I'm sure if legal proceedings take place that the family will have no interest in a monetary gain. They just want action against the system that failed their son.

And what about the son that failed society by not having any measure of decency ? Who gets action against him ?

up for anything · 21-12-2011 01:39PM

MrStuffins wrote: »

There's a massive gulf of difference between wondering whather you raised a child right and actually pulling the trigger!

Your logic is nothing short of ridiculous!

I don't 'do' logic, just musings. :P

Warper · 21-12-2011 01:39PM

prinz wrote: »

What about the other family? Who do they now get to take action against? Oh wait, nobody because he has robbed them of their day in court along with everything else.

...and? Does it take more than 15 minutes to kill yourself?

Ok, so we stick him in a straitjacket into a padded cell.. then you'll have people complaining about that.

Its not rocket science. There was a high-risk of suicide in this case, any one could see that. I presume the cells have cameras, if not why in Gods name was he not put in one. The fact that he was able to hang himself under suicide watch is an indictment to the people watching over him. Common sense gone here or maybe the cops didnt give a fcuk if he killed himself or not.

Fear Uladh · 21-12-2011 01:39PM

Liam Byrne wrote: »

And what about the son that failed society by not having any measure of decency ? Who gets action against him ?

Justice was served to him already, if the prison service done their job, he would have served his time.

State allows prisoner on suicide watch kill himself.

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