Raw Gym or Crossfit Ireland or ???

ManannanMacLir · 29-11-2011 11:40PM #1

Hi everyone. I want to join a gym having spent the last while working out at home. I started out doing standard weights stuff but started getting a taste for kettlebells, skipping, deadlifts etc. along the line of the more sensible Crossfit approach. My question is should I then just go for a Crossfit affiliate and really get into it or join somewhere like Raw and still follow the Crossfit approach. Joining Crossfit Ireland for 3 sessions/week at a student rate would put me at ~€125/month whereas similar in Raw would be ~€50/month. If I had space in the house for a power rack I would probably just invest in one with an Olympic set and a kettlebell or two but alas I don't. Any recommendations/personal accounts would be really appreciated! Thanks

Hanley · 29-11-2011 11:44PM

You can do CF in raw, hell you can even follow an affiliates website and have them program for you for free... BUT do you value being coached more than the differential in price? And can you afford it?

ManannanMacLir · 29-11-2011 11:49PM

Yeah I guess that's the big question Hanley. The coaching does appeal to me. In terms of whether or not I can afford it, well that's a tricky one. Yes I can afford it but I also wouldn't mind having that extra money (a universal dilemma I think!).

Hanley · 29-11-2011 11:56PM

ManannanMacLir wrote: »

Yeah I guess that's the big question Hanley. The coaching does appeal to me. In terms of whether or not I can afford it, well that's a tricky one. Yes I can afford it but I also wouldn't mind having that extra money (a universal dilemma I think!).

There's nothing to stop you doing it on your own for now like. A crossfit journal subscription costs $25 a year, and there's a great resource for free in the forum. If you dont see results with that, you may wanna reevaluate.

At the start, "anything" tends to work anyway really!!

ilovelamp2000 · 30-11-2011 12:27AM

I'm thinking of joining RAW myself at the moment, how busy does it get in there ?

Nervous Wreck · 30-11-2011 12:32AM

ilovelamp2000 wrote: »

I'm thinking of joining RAW myself at the moment, how busy does it get in there ?

Depends, like all gyms, what time of the day you go in.

redzerredzer · 01-12-2011 12:05AM

I tried to crossfit in a normal gym and it's a pain in the ass. As soon as you leave your station someone always grabs your kettlebell or pull up bar or whatever.
(Any wod with running can't be done. It's not realistic to leg it out into town and swipe yourself back in again).
Working out in a group will make you work harder and achieve more.
You get the coaching and it's a big advantage to be able to drop the bar at crossfit. You might even make a friend at an affiliate.
There are quite a few crossfit places now so you should pick the one closest and give it a trial. You will train more if it's not too far away.
I still think some affiliates are taking the p••• with the price and locking you in for a year. It kind of goes against the spirit of the CF family thing they claim to have but everyone's got to make a living I suppose.
I would say, if money is no object definately go with crossfit but it does cost alot.
Good luck with your choice

ManannanMacLir · 01-12-2011 12:46AM

Good to hear your take on it redzerredzer. What places are there? I know of CF Ireland, CF Dublin & South Dublin S&C. Are there more? Preferably southside.

Hanley · 01-12-2011 12:55AM

It's funny, I was talking to a dude in CFI tonight who CF'd in Raw for 9 months, joined CFI like 2-3 months ago and reckons he's made bigger gains in that time than the 9 previous.

I still think just being plain strong in the basic movements (squat/press/DL) has a massive carryover to being good at CF.

So if you commit to raw with the view of joining a CF gym down the road, I'd say commit to getting as strong as possible in the basics, and do metcons primarily in the 8-15 minute range 2-3x per week on low skill movements (air squats, push ups, pull ups, running, rowing, KB swings, burpees etc etv). You'll still get a good metabolic effect without potentially f*cking yourself up too badly

Zamboni · 01-12-2011 10:21AM

Hanley wrote: »

It's funny, I was talking to a dude in CFI tonight who CF'd in Raw for 9 months, joined CFI like 2-3 months ago and reckons he's made bigger gains in that time than the 9 previous.

When I was in CFI, I experienced the same but I found it was mostly down to training in a communal setting more than down to any coaching I received.
And there are far cheaper communal training settings available than CF.

GoneFR · 01-12-2011 12:29PM

Zamboni wrote: »

When I was in CFI, I experienced the same but I found it was mostly down to training in a communal setting more than down to any coaching I received.
And there are far cheaper communal training settings available than CF.

You'll never get strong with CF especially CFI.

FACT.

Hanley · 01-12-2011 12:35PM

GoneFR wrote: »

You'll never get strong with CF especially CFI.

FACT.

Hahahhahahahaah yeah. Cos they certainly never had one of Irelands top powerlifters in specifically coaching strength classes.

I think if i say "fact" now it makes my point more believable. So...

FACT.

token · 01-12-2011 12:39PM

ManannanMacLir wrote: »

My question is should I then just go for a Crossfit affiliate and really get into it or join somewhere like Raw and still follow the Crossfit approach. Joining Crossfit Ireland for 3 sessions/week at a student rate would put me at ~€125/month whereas similar in Raw would be ~€50/month. If I had space in

Hanley wrote: »

I still think just being plain strong in the basic movements (squat/press/DL) has a massive carryover to being good at CF.

Before dropping any money on a CF affiliate you would want to make damn sure they are doing the above. CFI didn't for the whole of 2011 which led to me leaving (other than a trial at the end of the year for a select few which doesn't count). The trial was coached by Hanley here so I would confirm with him whether this is being rolled out fully in 2012 and available to everyone before locking yourself into a long term contract there. The times I was progressing there was when there was a heavy lifting component at the start of a class, then a metcon (Winter 2010). I went backwards when that stopped and it became metcon followed by more metcons.

This is a good article from an affiliate in Cork of the programming you should expect to receive if you want to progress longer than the honeymoon period.

http://crossfitmallow.ie/index.php?option=com_jaggyblog&task=viewpost&id=384&Itemid=12

If you decide to keep CF training on your own read up on the Crossfit Football approach. A sensible get strong, get fit approach.

GoneFR · 01-12-2011 12:41PM

Hanley wrote: »

Hahahhahahahaah yeah. Cos they certainly never had one of Irelands top powerlifters in specifically coaching strength classes.

I think if i say "fact" now it makes my point more believable. So...

FACT.

Hanley I may not be a post like a virus replicates, unlike yourself, but lets admit it, no one likes a virus.

You prattle on about your expertise and constant self promotion and when someone comes in to correct you your MOD buddies step in and lock up a thread. Oh ye I read a lot of posts. I rarely contribute until I see injustice.

I have ACTUAL experience, nearly 2 years there and the numbers to show it DOES NOT work. It's a glorified overpriced fitness facility. That's all. Go there to lose a few pounds, don't go there expecting to get strong or competitive in anything other than exercising.

01-12-2011 12:42PM

Hanley wrote: »

Hahahhahahahaah yeah. Cos they certainly never had one of Irelands top powerlifters in specifically coaching strength classes.

I think if i say "fact" now it makes my point more believable. So...

FACT.

Presumably this was available to all members? Otherwise your point is moot and only applies to 4-6% of same. Open to correction.

Hanley · 01-12-2011 12:58PM

GoneFR wrote: »

Hanley I may not be a post like a virus replicates, unlike yourself, but lets admit it, no one likes a virus.

You prattle on about your expertise and constant self promotion and when someone comes in to correct you your MOD buddies step in and lock up a thread. Oh ye I read a lot of posts. I rarely contribute until I see injustice.

I have ACTUAL experience, nearly 2 years there and the numbers to show it DOES NOT work. It's a glorified overpriced fitness facility. That's all. Go there to lose a few pounds, don't go there expecting to get strong or competitive in anything other than exercising.

TL;DR

Most of the mods here don't eveb like me. But hey, I get it, you don't either

Regardless of whether you like it or not I'll keep doing what I'm doing becaue I've helped a hell of a lot of people thru here. And I'll say no more.

columok wrote: »

Presumably this was available to all members? Otherwise your point is moot and only applies to 4-6% of same. Open to correction.

The whole point of it was to target members who had a specific weakness on the strength side of things - ie it was their limiting factor. If you want full time strength coaching, you're better in a strength gym. That should be fairly obvious

I've had at least one person come back say they've done their first rx'd workout since they finished the strength training and were super stoked as a result. So it worked. Say what you want about the lads, but the training system is constantly evolving as the member numbers and sample size increases, and they do a pretty good job of looking for new things to add to the program.

Hanley · 01-12-2011 01:02PM

And guys, try going into somewhere like ECB and asking them to make you a powerlifter. You can't go to a specific place that promises something all around and then complain when you don't get to pick and choose specifics.

Now I'd argue that I think there's a gap to set up a facility that does the menu approach, but that's a whole other story.

d'Oracle · 01-12-2011 01:02PM

Barry.Oglesby · 01-12-2011 01:03PM

Hanley wrote: »

super stoked

I bought my son a Super Stoker for his last birthday.

Black Sheep · 01-12-2011 01:03PM

OP-

If you've got your heart set on doing CrossFit, I would make the observation that it need not be a binary choice between CrossFit Ireland (CFI) and RAW in town.

As you point out, you could do CF type training at a number of venues (not just RAW, for that matter). On the Southside there's SDSC (where the coach is also CrossFit certified, AFAIK), Ironside / ECB and probably other places that you could make do in. In the city centre aside from RAW you've also got Hercs, which might work with a little ingenuity.

If you feel like you want the communal CF experience I would also strongly suggest is that you look around and price other CF affiliates than CFI. There are quite a few in Dublin at this point, with a range of prices. Paying more does not necessarily equate to getting value, to receiving better coaching or following intelligent programming.

Actually somewhere like CrossFit North Dublin / Performance Therapy is, by CF standards, taking a pretty responsible approach to programming and their clients wellbeing. It would probably be my pick of all the affiliates in Dublin if I were still interested in CrossFit. Strangely they don't seem to need to charge a couple of thousand Euro per year in membership (only partially to do with their location, I think).

GoneFR · 01-12-2011 01:04PM

Hanley wrote: »

TL;DR

Most of the mods here don't eveb like me. But hey, I get it, you don't either

Regardless of whether you like it or not I'll keep doing what I'm doing becaue I've helped a hell of a lot of people thru here. And I'll say no more.

Not surprising.

I don't care what you do on here, I was just pointing out your obvious flaws.

But here, well done avoiding the important part of my point. (You'd fit right in with the rest of the scum in government.) The fact that CF does not make you strong and CFI certainly fails in that goal. On the basis of actual experience of myself, and I'd say upward of 10 ex members I know who moved to real training facilities where training is done by experienced individuals with actual achievements.

Zamboni · 01-12-2011 01:07PM

Hanley wrote: »

Now I'd argue that I think there's a gap to set up a facility that does the menu approach, but that's a whole other story.

Build it and they will come.

GoneFR · 01-12-2011 01:09PM

Did you ever train at CFI Henley?
Don't remember seeing you there ever.
How can you have an objective view?

token · 01-12-2011 01:09PM

Hanley wrote: »

And guys, try going into somewhere like ECB and asking them to make you a powerlifter. You can't go to a specific place that promises something all around and then complain when you don't get to pick and choose specifics.

That's not the point I was or the others I believe are trying to make. You can get plenty strong and get plenty good at metcons at the time. It doesn't have to be a choice. A class lasts an hour, average metcon is 10 minutes long. There is plenty of time to do everything including all the mobility stuff.

01-12-2011 01:18PM

token wrote: »

That's not the point I was or the others I believe are trying to make. You can get plenty strong and get plenty good at metcons at the time. It doesn't have to be a choice. A class lasts an hour, average metcon is 10 minutes long. There is plenty of time to do everything including all the mobility stuff.

Provided that stuff is "allowed"!

Hanley wrote:

The whole point of it was to target members who had a specific weakness on the strength side of things - ie it was their limiting factor. If you want full time strength coaching, you're better in a strength gym. That should be fairly obvious

I've had at least one person come back say they've done their first rx'd workout since they finished the strength training and were super stoked as a result. So it worked. Say what you want about the lads, but the training system is constantly evolving as the member numbers and sample size increases, and they do a pretty good job of looking for new things to add to the program.

Melissa Urban and co were kicked out of CF for saying that with nearly all Cf trainees STRENGTH is the limiting factor. I would posit that in 99% of people in Ireland that this is the same. I would also suggest that for most CF-affiliate trainees its not a specific weakness thats the problem its overall weakness.

I think the combined parties on this thread arguing against you have considerable greater subjective and objective experience of what training at a CF affiliate is like. Much like you have considerably greater experience at training as a powerlifter. This isn't really up for contention tbh. Our opinions are based on REAL experience rather than hearsay.

Edwardius · 01-12-2011 01:19PM

ManannanMacLir wrote: »

Hi everyone. I want to join a gym having spent the last while working out at home. I started out doing standard weights stuff but started getting a taste for kettlebells, skipping, deadlifts etc. along the line of the more sensible Crossfit approach. My question is should I then just go for a Crossfit affiliate and really get into it or join somewhere like Raw and still follow the Crossfit approach. Joining Crossfit Ireland for 3 sessions/week at a student rate would put me at ~€125/month whereas similar in Raw would be ~€50/month. If I had space in the house for a power rack I would probably just invest in one with an Olympic set and a kettlebell or two but alas I don't. Any recommendations/personal accounts would be really appreciated! Thanks

OP, most of the crossfit gyms have some sort of blog format where they list their programming and you can go back over a year or more and see if the progression in each case appeals to you.

Crossfit Ireland workouts
I haven't been keeping an eye on this, last time I did (maybe about 18 months or so ago) I think they did some strength lift+short metcon type stuff, you can look back over the last few months to confirm that this is still the case.

Crossfit dublin programming

I think this is OPT style training, which is well regarded

Performance therapy Ireland is on the northside, but they have a link to the different services they offer so you don't have to do just crossfit.

There's also crossfit trojan which I know nowt about and ronin crossfit in fairview

Hanley · 01-12-2011 01:20PM

GoneFR wrote: »

Not surprising.

I don't care what you do on here, I was just pointing out your obvious flaws.

But here, well done avoiding the important part of my point. (You'd fit right in with the rest of the scum in government.) The fact that CF does not make you strong and CFI certainly fails in that goal. On the basis of actual experience of myself, and I'd say upward of 10 ex members I know who moved to real training facilities where training is done by experienced individuals with actual achievements.

Kool-aid, hater-aid, everyone's got aids.

token wrote: »

That's not the point I was or the others I believe are trying to make. You can get plenty strong and get plenty good at metcons at the time. It doesn't have to be a choice. A class lasts an hour, average metcon is 10 minutes long. There is plenty of time to do everything including all the mobility stuff.

I'm not really sure i get ya tbh. Like for new guys, after a warm up they need to learn the skills that'll be involved in the metcon , it need to all be set up, put away etc etc. there's definitely time to get something in, and to drive some sort of strength gain. BUT I think if strength's your primary goal you need to train specifically for that.

Like how many training hours have you logged since you change from being a cf athlete to a real one??

01-12-2011 01:22PM

Dead Ed wrote: »

OP, most of the crossfit gyms have some sort of blog format where they list their programming and you can go back over a year or more and see if the progression in each case appeals to you.

Crossfit Ireland workouts
I haven't been keeping an eye on this, last time I did (maybe about 18 months or so ago) I think they did some strength lift+short metcon type stuff, you can look back over the last few months to confirm that this is still the case.

Crossfit dublin programming

I think this is OPT style training, which is well regarded

Performance therapy Ireland is on the northside, but they have a link to the different services they offer so you don't have to do just crossfit.

There's also crossfit trojan which I know nowt about and ronin crossfit in fairview

The big issue is also what kind of longevity a preset WOD system. Sensibly done this can take a novice up to a good level. But after a certain point you need specific programming for your weaknesses even if a communal WOD conditioning block is tacked on afterwards.

Red_Wake · 01-12-2011 01:23PM

ManannanMacLir wrote: »

Hi everyone. I want to join a gym having spent the last while working out at home. I started out doing standard weights stuff but started getting a taste for kettlebells, skipping, deadlifts etc. along the line of the more sensible Crossfit approach. My question is should I then just go for a Crossfit affiliate and really get into it or join somewhere like Raw and still follow the Crossfit approach. Joining Crossfit Ireland for 3 sessions/week at a student rate would put me at ~€125/month whereas similar in Raw would be ~€50/month. If I had space in the house for a power rack I would probably just invest in one with an Olympic set and a kettlebell or two but alas I don't. Any recommendations/personal accounts would be really appreciated! Thanks

Any gym that does not have these should not even be considered IMO.

I'm not a member of either of these places, but if I was you, I'd take a tour of their facilities, and join up based on what equipment they have.

Having said that, I consider it unlikely that either of them lack the required equipment, and as such you should consider the following;

(1) is the location handy for you (no sense in joining somewhere that you can't get to)
(2) are the crossfit classes suitable for you (on at suitable time/ have the right amount of people for you)
(3) expertise of staff (can they show you correct form, and help you when you wish to change your routine or clean up your diet)

Mind you, regardless of which gym you join, the biggest factor in whether you succeed or fail is still yourself/

g'em · 01-12-2011 01:23PM

See, it's threads like this that really make the Mods' life difficult here. So I'm going to be as straightforward as I can and if I go over the top then you can take it up with my superiors by all means.

Hanley, youre being an egotistical jerk. You really are though. You are given so much leniancy here it's not funny and yet you just can't help pushing us to our limits. Yes, you do have an incredibly good knowledge base, and experience, and there are not many like you who can provide such top-notch advice. But seriously, do you have to act like such a douche? You're a nice guy, now be the (metaphorically) bigger guy.

And GoneFR fair enough, you've had a sh*tty time in CFI, but no-one likes a bitcher in such a closed community - if you haven't had success then that's a shame, but at least give more of a background and a balanced reasoning as to why you didn't like it.

And drop the snide comments at Hanley. Yes, he's being an ass but you're the one doing the abusing and you'll shoulder the ban.

GoneFR · 01-12-2011 01:26PM

Good post columok. Experience is paramount.

Dead Ed I was up at Performance Therapy, as is a mate of my at present, and found the training and programming there to be more individual based.
Found Stephen to be excellent. Definitely an CF style gym I'd recommend if one was set on CF (for whatever deranged reason other than weightloss).

Raw Gym or Crossfit Ireland or ???

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