Dublin Bus Network Review

A2000 · 15-11-2011 8:35pm

Just saw southbound 40 at harts corner going to city centre only.

Cookie_Monster · 16-11-2011 6:22am

when I load that page I only get this:

Howth Road / Portmarnock
Friday, January 28, 2011
All the below changes are planned to be implemented in Spring 2012. Dublin Bus is pleased to announce proposals for services in the Malahide, Portmarnock and Howth Road QBC areas as part of Network...
Swords / Santry / Rathfarnham / Firhouse / Ballycullen / Terenure
Swords / Santry / Rathfarnham / Firhouse / Ballycullen / Terenure
Friday, July 22, 2011
Routes implemented to date include; 161. Routes to be implemented include; 15, 15a, 15b, 15e, 15f, 74, 74a, 128 and 140(Implementation planned for December 2011) 3, 16, 16a, 41, 41b, 41c, 41x and...

even if cleared from cache and reloaded...

I see the 84 is not mentioned above either, is it now not changing again?

LXFlyer · 16-11-2011 7:13am

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

when I load that page I only get this:

Howth Road / Portmarnock
Friday, January 28, 2011
All the below changes are planned to be implemented in Spring 2012. Dublin Bus is pleased to announce proposals for services in the Malahide, Portmarnock and Howth Road QBC areas as part of Network...
Swords / Santry / Rathfarnham / Firhouse / Ballycullen / Terenure
Swords / Santry / Rathfarnham / Firhouse / Ballycullen / Terenure
Friday, July 22, 2011
Routes implemented to date include; 161. Routes to be implemented include; 15, 15a, 15b, 15e, 15f, 74, 74a, 128 and 140(Implementation planned for December 2011) 3, 16, 16a, 41, 41b, 41c, 41x and...

even if cleared from cache and reloaded...

I see the 84 is not mentioned above either, is it now not changing again?

I summarised the updates from each area's page.

As for the 84 - they haven't put any revised proposals up yet - if that is to change then it won't happen until the 45/45a changes go out for consultation (which presumably they would do given there was no changes mentioned prior to this).

Tarabuses · 16-11-2011 3:03pm

dfx- wrote: »

I was on Dame St there for about 10 minutes at lunchtime and saw four 40s, two each, one VG. Conyngham Road haven't deviated from the poorer AVs that the 78A had..

The displays should be for when the next bus to the stop is approaching in my opinion. If that's four 27s, then so be it. I'd rather see four 27s in the next ten minutes on it than my 56A being 55 minutes away.

You'd rather see when other bus services are due rather than the one you want?

dfx- · 16-11-2011 4:22pm

Tarabuses wrote: »

You'd rather see when other bus services are due rather than the one you want?

Yeah...what's the point in telling me it's an hour away? I could tell you that myself. If it's due in the next ten minutes, I'd want to know, yeah - but then it'll come up anyway.

I'd rather know about possible alternatives that will be sooner than 60 minutes. Like two 27s in 5 minutes.

stop · 17-11-2011 12:37am

Bus campaigners to take fight to European Court of Human Rights

Cookie_Monster · 17-11-2011 12:44am

untold hardship for commuters across the city

first world problems...

what an absolute waste of courts time.

robbie_998 · 17-11-2011 12:50am

stop wrote: »

Bus campaigners to take fight to European Court of Human Rights

Would they ever go and shi-te

they are gonna complain to the EU , the people who are trying to solve debt crises, poverty, banks and run countries and the likes just because Dublin bus changed a route and their not happy ?

what a load of me hole !

CIE · 17-11-2011 3:11am

stop wrote: »

Bus campaigners to take fight to European Court of Human Rights

Hilarious.

AlekSmart · 17-11-2011 7:36am

CIE wrote: »

Hilarious.

Tragi-Comedy more like it...:(

But it does also underline the shambolic manner in which the entire Network Direct programme was implimented.

Perhaps it's only me,but I suspect we have never been more attuned to being told the truth than we are now,and Dublin Bus should have recognized this.

"Look Peeps,we've far less resources available....we have to ditch 350 drivers and 200 hundred buses so there WILL be changes...we'll try to keep the ship afloat,BUT there are going to be losers in this...etc etc..."

Instead we had the meaningless PR stuff trotted out...NEW ! IMPROVED!....Less can really be MORE !.....Base Metal is really Gold.....I don't really accept that anybody has bought into this and in persisting with this line Dublin Bus has substantially damaged it's credibility.

However,it's not all the company's fault,as the new big-boss,the NTA and indeed Minister Leo V,have sat silently on their hands watching and waiting...their job is to actively formulate and impliment new stuff,not merely to see how it goes.

However,as for the ECHR being a forum at which these items should be raised...maybe at one time,but in todays social and economic climate...not a chance.

I would imagine these folks are emboldened by the Route Number 8 story which embraced an EU appeal and which was succesful to a point......All rise :eek:

LXFlyer · 17-11-2011 10:40am

This is utter madness. These people are deluded.

They say this:

“Since this decision, many elderly residents from this area have been housebound and unable to access shops, medical facilities, social outlets and religious services”, said Geraldine Gough, chief organiser of the north side part of the campaign.

Gough said that the Glasnevin area was one of the worst affected, as it offers no transport alternatives such as Dart or Luas. “(Glasnevin) also has the lowest car ownership in Ireland. The disabled and elderly feel discarded and isolated and many are depressed at being treated so badly by a public funded body like Dublin Bus,” she added.

The campaign highlighted that meetings held by Dublin South Central, Dublin Central and Dublin North West councils have all resulted in motions being passed that condemn the decision of Dublin Bus and the NTA.”The councillors acknowledged the horrific impact on children going to school, people going to work and on the elderly and disabled in particular,” the campaign said in a statement released today.

Let's look at this objectively. On the northside:

Every stop on the old 19 is covered from the terminus to Ballygall Road West by the 83. Beneavin Road is now served by the 9 in both directions. Two stops on Ballygall Road East have no bus but one is within a five minute walk of the 9 on Beneavin Road and the other is within 5 minutes of the 83 on Ballygall Road East at Fitzmaurice Road. For Hillcrest residents the 11 is within a short walk also at St Pappin's Road.

Within Tolka Estate there is no bus but again all of the stops are within 5 minutes of a stop on the revised 83.

On the southside every single stop on the 19 is still served by a bus (68/68a at the western end and the 122 also from Rialto inbound).

There are lots of areas of Dublin that are far worse off than this. It was hardly as if the buses on the 19, 19a and 83 were all full - both the 9 and 83 seem to be coping with the loads quite well as it is. To be claiming people are "housebound" and that there has been an horrific impact on people as a result of these changes is nothing short of disgraceful propaganda. Even worse is wasting the ECHR time on this.

There is a fundamental difference with the 8 in Dalkey - there was a full consultation process this time. People do have viable alternative services.

A2000 · 17-11-2011 4:16pm

Does anyone have any idea why there are consistant gaps of 25 mins on southbound 40 at oconnell st? Seems like every 2nd bus is missing. They seem to be just as consistent at 12 mins northbound.

dfx- · 17-11-2011 4:20pm

A2000 wrote: »

Does anyone have any idea why there are consistant gaps of 25 mins on southbound 40 at oconnell st? Seems like every 2nd bus is missing. They seem to be just as consistent at 12 mins northbound.

It's the opposite on the 13. Lots of buses on the 13 southbound, nothing northbound. There was a DT going through Clondalkin at 1330, nothing for an hour afterwards. By the text RTPI, the 1351 didn't show up, the 1406 didn't show up, I gave up on the 1421 service which as of 1450 in the city centre, hadn't shown up.

CIE · 17-11-2011 7:05pm

lxflyer wrote: »

This is utter madness. These people are deluded.

They say this:

“Since this decision, many elderly residents from this area have been housebound and unable to access shops, medical facilities, social outlets and religious services”, said Geraldine Gough, chief organiser of the north side part of the campaign.

Gough said that the Glasnevin area was one of the worst affected, as it offers no transport alternatives such as DART or Luas. “(Glasnevin) also has the lowest car ownership in Ireland. The disabled and elderly feel discarded and isolated and many are depressed at being treated so badly by a public funded body like Dublin Bus,” she added.

The campaign highlighted that meetings held by Dublin South Central, Dublin Central and Dublin North West councils have all resulted in motions being passed that condemn the decision of Dublin Bus and the NTA.”The councillors acknowledged the horrific impact on children going to school, people going to work and on the elderly and disabled in particular,” the campaign said in a statement released today.

Let's look at this objectively. On the northside:

Every stop on the old 19 is covered from the terminus to Ballygall Road West by the 83. Beneavin Road is now served by the 9 in both directions. Two stops on Ballygall Road East have no bus but one is within a five minute walk of the 9 on Beneavin Road and the other is within 5 minutes of the 83 on Ballygall Road East at Fitzmaurice Road. For Hillcrest residents the 11 is within a short walk also at St Pappin's Road.

Within Tolka Estate there is no bus but again all of the stops are within 5 minutes of a stop on the revised 83.

On the southside every single stop on the 19 is still served by a bus (68/68a at the western end and the 122 also from Rialto inbound).

There are lots of areas of Dublin that are far worse off than this. It was hardly as if the buses on the 19, 19A and 83 were all full - both the 9 and 83 seem to be coping with the loads quite well as it is. To be claiming people are "housebound" and that there has been an horrific impact on people as a result of these changes is nothing short of disgraceful propaganda. Even worse is wasting the ECHR time on this.

There is a fundamental difference with the 8 in Dalkey - there was a full consultation process this time. People do have viable alternative services.

You sure that's an objective viewpoint? especially by throwing ad-hominems at the quoted "people" (madness, deluded, disgraceful propaganda)? I agree that it's a joke to take it to the ECHR, but that's mostly because the ECHR is itself a joke and panders to the lowest type of "human rights" that are not rights at all, and when they rule on "rights" they end up trampling everyone's rights in the process.

If the objective of ND is "full buses", then DB may as well get out of the bus business altogether, disband and hand the bus service over to private operators (of course, to make that work, there would have to be a new regulatory scheme in place that doesn't interfere with the ability to self-fund operations out of the fare box, but that's a different matter). No passenger wants to be on a full-to-the-gills bus, where they can barely move around before being able to reach the door when their stop comes up. And the buses that are full now due to passengers being forced onto different routes thanks to route cuts and service cuts will become steadily less full when people get sick of the cuts and migrate back to cars. Never mind that a walk of one kilometre is hardly a five-minute walk (not even a half-kilometre walk takes five minutes), and going up and down grades (Dublin is absolutely not flat land) makes such walks far more difficult. The "transport" initiatives out of the government want to minimise car ownership: well, guess what, that will increase the demand for local bus routes closer to where people live so that they don't have to walk for twenty minutes or longer to get to a bus stop (despite the "walking" initiative which just ain't going to work), and Network Direct demolished two long-standing routes via Ballygall Road East and Tolka Estate sans proper public consultation. (But I suppose they're just following the centralised technocratic lead of the European Union, eh?)

As for double deckers not being too full, guess what? DB started running them on routes that formerly had lower-capacity buses at high frequency (single deckers and former City Imp routes); don't know what the expectation was, but you can't suddenly get more passengers by running bigger buses. DB needs to run more single-deck buses at certain times of day, but they decided to put all their eggs into one basket. There's a reason why a lot of cities bigger than Dublin do not run double-deck buses, and that's not due to lower bridges.

LXFlyer · 17-11-2011 7:34pm

There was full consultation, but I guess you didn't notice that.

When have you noticed the buses on the 9 or 83 being "full to the gills" rather than its normal full capacity? Can you give precise examples?

I'll ask the question that I posed in post #3982 again.

Can I ask "CIE" specifically what practical changes he has noted on his Dublin commute in terms of numbers on the bus service that he uses? Maybe he could identify that route so that we can understand where he is coming from? There must have been some major changes on his particular route that he is basing this assertion of huge numbers switching to the car?

dfx- · 17-11-2011 7:37pm

I don't necessarily disagree that this 19 thing is pushing too far, but...

lxflyer wrote: »

Every stop on the old 19 is covered from the terminus to Ballygall Road West by the 83. Beneavin Road is now served by the 9 in both directions. Two stops on Ballygall Road East have no bus but one is within a five minute walk of the 9 on Beneavin Road and the other is within 5 minutes of the 83 on Ballygall Road East at Fitzmaurice Road. For Hillcrest residents the 11 is within a short walk also at St Pappin's Road.

Within Tolka Estate there is no bus but again all of the stops are within 5 minutes of a stop on the revised 83.

There are lots of areas of Dublin that are far worse off than this.

What would you call the limits of being 'covered'? 5 minute walk? 10 minute walk? Uphill? Downhill?

What difference does it make how many areas of Dublin are better or worse off?

LXFlyer · 17-11-2011 8:45pm

My use of the word "covered" in the first sentence meant that those particular stops are actually served by the 83.

In this particular instance there is still a bus service provided within a very short walk of the 4-5 stops no longer served - it is hardly as if people are "housebound"? I certainly think a 5 minute walk is acceptable.

The point I am making is that do these people have a divine right to a bus stop to their door anymore than the rest of us?

KD345 · 17-11-2011 9:26pm

CIE wrote: »

And the buses that are full now due to passengers being forced onto different routes thanks to route cuts and service cuts will become steadily less full when people get sick of the cuts and migrate back to cars.

The 9 and 83 are not full. Where are you having trouble boarding these buses? The 19 was never full. It's not about having full buses, but it is about tidying up a bus network where bus routes overlap.

thomasj · 18-11-2011 5:45pm

Dublin bus have advertised that the howth road buses will now move to the abbey street terminus

Surely this means that the final changes to the malahide road routes (128, 42, 43) are imminent?

Routes 29a,31,31b,32,32a and 32b change of TerminiFriday, November 18, 2011
From Sunday 27th November, Routes 29a, 31, 31b, 32, 32a and 32b City Centre termini will move from Eden Quay to Lower Abbey Street as follows;
Route 29a will operate to and from stop number 291 on Lower Abbey Street (in front of the National Lottery Building).
Routes 31, 31b, 32, 32a and 32b will operate to and from stop number 289 on Lower Abbey Street (in front of the National Lottery Building).
Please note, Route 32x will no longer stop on Eden Quay, it will now stop on Lower Abbey Street, stop number 289.
Customers can also get updates on Facebook
or follow us on Twitter @dublinbusnews
or call our customer service line on (01) 8734222, lines open from 08:30 - 18:00hrs(Monday to Saturday excluding bank holidays).

I presume, based on this malahide road buses will all be moved to and based on Eden quay

Dub13 · 18-11-2011 5:55pm

They should move all the Swords buses from Abbey street up to Parnell Street.This would speed up the Swords buses and leave loads of room on Abbey st.

prettyboy81 · 19-11-2011 2:21pm

Dub13 wrote: »

They should move all the Swords buses from Abbey street up to Parnell Street.This would speed up the Swords buses and leave loads of room on Abbey st.

Good call, or even in that vicinity should as Nth Cumberland street beside the old social welfare office that is basically shut now only operating a small service plenty of room....

AlekSmart · 19-11-2011 2:27pm

Dub13 wrote: »

They should move all the Swords buses from Abbey street up to Parnell Street.This would speed up the Swords buses and leave loads of room on Abbey st.

If the company were keeping to the spirit of the Deloitte Report,the 41,s etc should be sent across the Liffey to the exotic environs of the South....

Merrion/Fitzwilliam/Ringsend or Donnybrook should not be placed beyond the single-journey reach of North County folk by the Public Transport system ??

Dub13 · 19-11-2011 4:10pm

AlekSmart wrote: »

Merrion/Fitzwilliam/Ringsend or Donnybrook should not be placed beyond the single-journey reach of North County folk by the Public Transport system ??

With all the other busses moving back to Abbey Street ( 29a,31,31b,32,32a and 32b ) none of them are going cross city.So if they are all going maintain the current city status I think my suggestion would work.

A2000 · 19-11-2011 5:01pm

Got 40 southbound yesterday at 15.30 from O'Connell st. Q was quite big and people for the 13 & 16/A had formed a seperate Q so there was 2 Q's from the stop.

The general chat on the bus was how the 40 is or is not an improvement. People were saying that they had waits of up to 45 mins for 40 at various times of the day. One lady asked the driver how much time he had to get from Finglas to liffey valley and the reply was 1 hr 15mins. Loading was good on the way out although the rtpi in both directions was not matching up with bus movements. There was a 13 in front which was not showing on rtpi at all. Presumably if they are running late they are being sent via m50 from say Finglas to liffey valley to plug some gaps or vice versa.

The 40 I was on left O'Connell st at 15.30 and was at Ballyfermot(gala) at 16.29 so if the driver had the 1hr 15mins to make the journey and assuming it took 30 mins from finglas then he was already 15 mins late with up to 25 mins of the journey still to go. This would be classed as an off peak service which according to the timetable should take approx 82 mins. At the gala a second 40 arrived behind us. Neither were on rtpi.

Another comment from people was how the 40 seems to travel in pairs and is slower than 78a perhaps because there are less buses that are taking longer to load. This pairs theory was borne out by the fact that last night according to db site there was 40 due 21.12 21.14 then nothing till 21.44 & 21.46 from o'connell st southbound on 20 min frequency. Network direct and rtpi was supposed to eradicate bunching and provide a continuous service with timely gaps. This does not seem to be the case.

Another point from my perspective is that I used to finish work at 6 walk to the quays and get the 18.20 78 and be in the house at 18.45 or if I got 78a 19.00. This week I finished work at 6 didnt have to walk to the quays got 40 at 18.15 and arrived home 19.10-19.15. The 'improvements' have made my journey up to 20-25 mins longer making the soon to be axed 79a a more viable option which was the next fastest service after 78.

I also counted 10 sets of traffic lights from O'connell st to lord edward st that the 78a did not have to negociate. This part of the journey took 15 mins and journey time to inchicore(black lion) was 45 mins from o'connell st.

I know its only the first week of service but the most noticable thing is that less buses are bunching the same as the old service creating bigger gaps. 20 mis gaps are common meaning at a 10 min frequency every 2nd bus seems to be missing at times.

On the plus side it was handy not having to carry shopping down to the quays but I probably would have saved time if I had walked down for 79a. The handiness of the o'connell st stop was offset by the lenghty journey time. Driver was very friendly and patient as there were a good few people on thomas st/james's st unsure if the 40 served inchicore.

Loading on northbound 40's that passed us were very good.

Another gripe was that on Aston Quay you had the choice of 78a or 79/a but now its either or at least until 79 changes. The first stop that 40 & 79/a shares is Sarsfield road(model school). When changes come in there may be a shared stop on D'Olier st.

Just my own observations from the past week on 40 along with some pax chatting during my journey.

qerty · 19-11-2011 5:12pm

A2000 wrote: »

Got 40 southbound yesterday at 15.30 from O'Connell st. Q was quite big and people for the 13 & 16/A had formed a seperate Q so there was 2 Q's from the stop.

The general chat on the bus was how the 40 is or is not an improvement. People were saying that they had waits of up to 45 mins for 40 at various times of the day. One lady asked the driver how much time he had to get from Finglas to liffey valley and the reply was 1 hr 15mins. Loading was good on the way out although the rtpi in both directions was not matching up with bus movements. There was a 13 in front which was not showing on rtpi at all.

The 40 I was on left O'Connell st at 15.30 and was at Ballyfermot(gala) at 16.29 so if the driver had the 1hr 15mins to make the journey and assuming it took 30 mins from finglas then he was already 15 mins late with up to 25 mins of the journey still to go. This would be classed as an off peak service which according to the timetable should take approx 82 mins. At the gala a second 40 arrived behind us. Neither were on rtpi.

Another comment from people was how the 40 seems to travel in pairs and is slower than 78a perhaps because there are less buses that are taking longer to load. This pairs theory was borne out by the fact that last night according to db site there was 40 due 21.12 21.14 then nothing till 21.44 & 21.46 from o'connell st southbound on 20 min frequency. Network direct and rtpi was supposed to eradicate bunching and provide a continuous service with timely gaps. This does not seem to be the case.

Another point from my perspective is that I used to finish work at 6 walk to the quays and get the 18.20 78 and be in the house at 18.45 or if I got 78a 19.00. This week I finished work at 6 didnt have to walk to the quays got 40 at 18.15 and arrived home 19.10-19.15. The 'improvements' have made my journey up to 20-25 mins longer making the soon to be axed 79a a more viable option which was the next fastest service after 78.

I also counted 10 sets of traffic lights from O'connell st to lord edward st that the 78a did not have to negociate. This part of the journey took 15 mins and journey time to inchicore(black lion) was 45 mins from o'connell st.

I know its only the first week of service but the most noticable thing is that less buses are bunching the same as the old service creating bigger gaps. 20 mis gaps are common meaning at a 10 min frequency every 2nd bus seems to be missing at times.

On the plus side it was handy not having to carry shopping down to the quays but I probably would have saved time if I had walked down for 79a. The handiness of the o'connell st stop was offset by the lenghty journey time. Driver was very friendly and patient as there were a good few people on thomas st/james's st unsure if the 40 served inchicore.

Loading on northbound 40's that passed us were very good.

Just my own observations from the past week on 40 along with some pax chatting during my journey.

Im afraid I have to agree. The 40s are indeed travelling in pairs and are VERY slow. The harristown drivers drive at a much slower pace on the route. Just an observation, not an insult.

Bazzer2 · 19-11-2011 5:14pm

A2000,

Dublin Bus conduct post-implementation reviews of changes made under Network Direct, so maybe you should convey your experiences to networkdirect@dublinbus.ie

For example, after Route 46A was changed, the running times were altered to inprove reliability. Changes were also made to the routing of the 47. If you feel the 40 could be improved upon, let them know and if enough people complain, you may get positive results.

A2000 · 19-11-2011 5:31pm

Bazzer2 wrote: »

A2000,

Dublin Bus conduct post-implementation reviews of changes made under Network Direct, so maybe you should convey your experiences to networkdirect@dublinbus.ie

For example, after Route 46A was changed, the running times were altered to inprove reliability. Changes were also made to the routing of the 47. If you feel the 40 could be improved upon, let them know and if enough people complain, you may get positive results.

I have done. Though surely with the aid of GPS & RTPI and the fact that they are running the service and must be monitoring it DB must be aware of whats going on? Drivers are instructed by control so control must be aware of the gaps and the lenghty journey times. I will post reply if i get one.

KD345 · 19-11-2011 6:02pm

A2000 wrote: »

One lady asked the driver how much time he had to get from Finglas to liffey valley and the reply was 1 hr 15mins.

I suspect you overheard incorrectly. I believe the off peak running time is 1 hour 50 minutes.

A2000 wrote: »

When changes come in there may be a shared stop on D'Olier st.

No, the 79 will run the full length of the quays avoiding D'Olier Street.

As Bazzer correctly pointed out, we have seen revisions to many routes post network direct. Hopefully the same will apply if the 40 is not working.

A2000 · 19-11-2011 6:21pm

KD345 wrote: »

I suspect you overheard incorrectly. I believe the off peak running time is 1 hour 50 minutes.

No, the 79 will run the full length of the quays avoiding D'Olier Street.

As Bazzer correctly pointed out, we have seen revisions to many routes post network direct. Hopefully the same will apply if the 40 is not working.

No he said 75 min off peak and 111 mins peak. 111 mins for peak service is 1 hr 51 min but is significantly reduced for off peak services. The bus I was on probably left Finglas at 15.00 and would be the 75 min off peak service but would have taken approx 120 mins which is above even the peak hour frequency. Thats how it was explained anyway. I dont know either way.

78A had journey time of 65 mins from city to Liffey valley. 40 was 35 mins from parnell st to finglas which was total of 100 mins so 111 mins off peak seems too much to me. 40 took 60 mins city to Ballyfermot off peak. Timetable says off peak 40 journey time approx 82 mins.

Its outrageous that there will be no shared stop in the city for 40 & 79. This is just another instance of how things have disimproved with network direct. People are being forced onto one route or the other. I can see a decrease in people using the 79 when they can get a 40 in o'connel st if in henry st or dame st if in grafton st.

ILBondo · 19-11-2011 7:01pm

I am absolutely aghast at this save the 19 campaign, firstly where the 19 originated on the south side is within walking distance of several high frequency routes such as the 79, 40, 13, 123. This is without mentioning the proximity of the Luas or the fact that that 68, operates the very much the same route as the old 19 from inchicore to the city- its the customers from Clondalkin/Newcastle that i feel sorry for there having to undergo such a detour. On the northside much of the old 19 route is very much subsumed into the 9 or the 83 again two very high frequency routes. The people complaining about the loss of 19 should appreciate that the bus service available to them is better than most places in Dublin let alone the country. If you want locations that have been drained of bus services, look at city west, firhouse/ballycullen, sandyford, whitechurch, or swords, particularily in the case of the latter it makes the 19 users complaints look insignificant.

Dublin Bus Network Review

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