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British poppy: should the Irish commemorate people who fought for the British Empire?

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,968 ✭✭✭laoch na mona


    So did the Iranians. It must be nice to have such bastians of civil liberty support your "Freedom Fighter".

    And don't talk about invading powers and occupying forces ffs.

    by your definition when the IRA killed british soldiers it wasn't terrorism
    also by your definition loyalists were undoubtedly terrorists


  • Registered Users Posts: 574 ✭✭✭SWL


    So did the Iranians. It must be nice to have such bastians of civil liberty support your "Freedom Fighter".

    And don't talk about invading powers and occupying forces ffs.


    Why not its a simple question what woud you have done?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    As does Paris... and quite a few other places around the world.

    It's alright to invade foreign countries with paid mercenaries but God forbid if the locals ever dare to rise up against them to protect their lands or stand up for their rights then they'll be derided as terrorists.

    Deliberately Killing children isn't protecting land, it is terrorism.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,218 ✭✭✭bobbysands81


    You do know that the vast majority of the civilians killed were killed by the people you are defending right?

    It isn't ISAF bombing girl's schools and killing teachers.

    LOL!!!

    Where have I stood up for the Taliban? To put it very very mildly I think they are utter vermin.

    However, they have not killed anywhere near as many people as have died in the name of the British Empire.


  • Registered Users Posts: 574 ✭✭✭SWL


    Deliberately Killing children isn't protecting land, it is terrorism.

    So what would you call members of the BA shooting dead teenagers in cars in NI


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,165 ✭✭✭✭ejmaztec


    As does Paris... and quite a few other places around the world.

    It's alright to invade foreign countries with paid mercenaries but God forbid if the locals ever dare to rise up against them to protect their lands or stand up for their rights then they'll be derided as terrorists.

    What's your opinion on the Taliban?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,968 ✭✭✭laoch na mona


    SWL wrote: »
    So what would you call members of the BA shooting dead teenagers in cars in NI

    patriots


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    by your definition when the IRA killed british soldiers it wasn't terrorism
    also by your definition loyalists were undoubtedly terrorists

    Yes. I have never said otherwise.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    LOL!!!

    Where have I stood up for the Taliban? To put it very very mildly I think they are utter vermin.

    However, they have not killed anywhere near as many people as have died in the name of the British Empire.

    Then why are you criticising the British Army for being in Afghanistan?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,968 ✭✭✭laoch na mona


    Yes. I have never said otherwise.

    just checking is all


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 532 ✭✭✭Gingko


    old hippy wrote: »
    And the whataboutery continues until the end of time....

    :rolleyes:

    Hey old hippy, once again I agree with your general vibe! But and there is a but! Leave aside Irish history (conflict in north only ended 13/14 years ago) for a moment, the british and american forces are still unacceptable to many people across the globe. They are there to keep the same elite empowered? This world is certainly not a better place for them! They continue to exploit and divide lands and cultures.

    You say your a hippy, surely you agree or at least see my point? republicans, freedom fighters or terrorists, whatever people see them as? They were born out of injustice, oppression and yes imperialism? If imperialism did not exist there would be no reaction? No doubt Mr fratton will disagree. The british and US forces work for the elite, anglo american bankers and corporations etc. These are the real enemy of the people everywhere!

    We do have a future and it is renewable energy, wind, wave and solar power. Permaculture for communities and real democratic sustainable governance. Hopefully one day civilisation will reach enlightenment? Hopefully? :)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    SWL wrote: »
    So what would you call members of the BA shooting dead teenagers in cars in NI

    Possibly criminals, but that should be for a court to decide. That isn't a completely black and white example.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,218 ✭✭✭bobbysands81


    When your strategy is to target civilians, then you are a terrorist organisation.

    What say you about this then?

    According to the White House, America's 'War on Terrorism' makes "no distinction between those who commit acts of terror and those who support and harbor terrorists. We are working to disrupt the flow of resources from states to terrorists while simultaneously end state sponsorship of terrorism."

    Given that in her recent report, Nuala O'Loan found that the British security forces have supported, harboured and resourced terrorists* and that George Bush has said that "if you harbor a terrorist, you're equally as guilty as the terrorist", should we now open the debate on whether we are going to allow Shannon to be used as a base for air strikes on London by the US Air Force?


    first quote taken from -
    http://www.whitehouse.gov/infocus/nationalsecurity/index.html (two thirds of the way down the page)
    * For examples see pages 133-138 of O'Loan's Report
    second quote taken from near the start of
    http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2006/04/20060406-3.html


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    Gingko wrote: »
    Hey old hippy, once again I agree with your general vibe! But and there is a but! Leave aside Irish history (conflict in north only ended 13/14 years ago) for a moment, the british and american forces are still unacceptable to many people across the globe. They are there to keep the same elite empowered? This world is certainly not a better place for them! They continue to exploit and divide lands and cultures.

    You say your a hippy, surely you agree or at least see my point? republicans, freedom fighters or terrorists, whatever people see them as? They were born out of injustice, oppression and yes imperialism? If imperialism did not exist there would be no reaction? No doubt Mr fratton will disagree. The british and US forces work for the elite, anglo american bankers and corporations etc. These are the real enemy of the people everywhere!

    We do have a future and it is renewable energy, wind, wave and solar power. Permaculture for communities and real democratic sustainable governance. Hopefully one day civilisation will reach enlightenment? Hopefully? :)

    Did you know there is a conspiracy theories forum?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,335 ✭✭✭Tiocfaidh Armani


    Deliberately Killing children isn't protecting land, it is terrorism.

    When did that happen? Oh yeah, I know....

    http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/events/other/1976/murray76.htm

    The IRA on the other hand did not DELIBERATELY murder children. It happened accidently in all conflicts, but the link above shows MURDER!


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 532 ✭✭✭Gingko


    Possibly criminals, but that should be for a court to decide. That isn't a completely black and white example.

    Thats a disgusting comment Fratton, and i doubt very much your a happy individual. Good luck!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,255 ✭✭✭getz


    No (I'm British/not Irish)
    Bambi wrote: »
    I love nice soft toffee, but I don't need any republicans (and are'nt we all republicans in this republic? if you were'nt one you'd probably feel compelled to p**s off somewhere else I imagine) to tell me what the brits were up to post 1945, trying to keep whatever was left of their empire after the Japanese had gone through it like a dose of salts
    not all the republicans are bad,i remember the one who reached down a manhole to defuse a bomb,so it would not go off and distrupt a football match between his favourite team derry city and benfica,what was his name ?dident he stand in ireland for president as far as fighting the japanese in the last war ,if you know your history [and you dont] the british were fighting the germany,italy and japan in three different continents at the same time,at one stage britain stood alone, on one side britain and the commonwealth,france the USA,the USSR china,[italy changed sides] the japanese on their own turf were a different kettle of fish,it took two atomic bombs to beat them


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 532 ✭✭✭Gingko


    getz wrote: »
    not all the republicans are bad,i remember the one who reached down a manhole to defuse a bomb,so it would not go off and distrupt a football match between his favourite team derry city and benfica,what was his name ?dident he stand in ireland for president as far as fighting the japanese in the last war ,if you know your history [and you dont] the british were fighting the germany,italy and japan in three different continents at the same time,at one stage britain stood alone, on one side britain and the commonwealth,france the USA,the USSR china,[italy changed sides] the japanese on their own turf were a different kettle of fish,it took two atomic bombs to beat them

    The ultimate act of Terrorism the world has ever witnessed!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,218 ✭✭✭bobbysands81


    Deliberately Killing children isn't protecting land, it is terrorism.

    So, according to your own definition, the British Army are a terrorist organisation.

    http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/victims/memorials/static/monuments/628.html

    Carol Ann Kelly (aged 12) who was shot dead by a plastic bullet, fired by a British soldier, as she walked home from a local shop


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    What say you about this then?

    According to the White House, America's 'War on Terrorism' makes "no distinction between those who commit acts of terror and those who support and harbor terrorists. We are working to disrupt the flow of resources from states to terrorists while simultaneously end state sponsorship of terrorism."

    Given that in her recent report, Nuala O'Loan found that the British security forces have supported, harboured and resourced terrorists* and that George Bush has said that "if you harbor a terrorist, you're equally as guilty as the terrorist", should we now open the debate on whether we are going to allow Shannon to be used as a base for air strikes on London by the US Air Force?


    first quote taken from -
    http://www.whitehouse.gov/infocus/nationalsecurity/index.html (two thirds of the way down the page)
    * For examples see pages 133-138 of O'Loan's Report
    second quote taken from near the start of
    http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2006/04/20060406-3.html

    I'd say you were clutching at straws.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,255 ✭✭✭getz


    No (I'm British/not Irish)
    Gingko wrote: »
    Hey old hippy, once again I agree with your general vibe! But and there is a but! Leave aside Irish history (conflict in north only ended 13/14 years ago) for a moment, the british and american forces are still unacceptable to many people across the globe. They are there to keep the same elite empowered? This world is certainly not a better place for them! They continue to exploit and divide lands and cultures.

    You say your a hippy, surely you agree or at least see my point? republicans, freedom fighters or terrorists, whatever people see them as? They were born out of injustice, oppression and yes imperialism? If imperialism did not exist there would be no reaction? No doubt Mr fratton will disagree. The british and US forces work for the elite, anglo american bankers and corporations etc. These are the real enemy of the people everywhere!

    We do have a future and it is renewable energy, wind, wave and solar power. Permaculture for communities and real democratic sustainable governance. Hopefully one day civilisation will reach enlightenment? Hopefully? :)
    dident i meet you at woodstock in 69 ?you were high then


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    Gingko wrote: »
    Thats a disgusting comment Fratton, and i doubt very much your a happy individual. Good luck!

    Have you lost the plot?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,165 ✭✭✭✭ejmaztec


    The extremes on the Poppy Thread get more fucking ridiculous with each passing year.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    When did that happen? Oh yeah, I know....

    http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/events/other/1976/murray76.htm

    The IRA on the other hand did not DELIBERATELY murder children. It happened accidently in all conflicts, but the link above shows MURDER!

    The BA's strategy in NI did not include targetting civilians. The IRA did.

    When you plant a bomb in a shopping centre, it is terrorism.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,968 ✭✭✭laoch na mona


    Have you lost the plot?

    and you have lost the argument


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,968 ✭✭✭laoch na mona


    The BA's strategy in NI did not include targetting civilians. The IRA did.

    When you plant a bomb in a shopping centre, it is terrorism.

    i think you are thinking of a different organisation one which i agree they are terrorists


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,218 ✭✭✭bobbysands81


    The BA's strategy in NI did not include targetting civilians. The IRA did.

    When you plant a bomb in a shopping centre, it is terrorism.

    ...and what about all the British bombs fired into civilian areas that kill children, are they ok cos they're "good bombs"?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    So, according to your own definition, the British Army are a terrorist organisation.

    http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/victims/memorials/static/monuments/628.html

    Carol Ann Kelly (aged 12) who was shot dead by a plastic bullet, fired by a British soldier, as she walked home from a local shop

    If those soldiers were under orders to go out and shoot a 12 year old girl then yes, but I'm guessing they weren't.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,218 ✭✭✭bobbysands81


    I'd say you were clutching at straws.

    But it's not me saying that, it's Nuala O'Loan (who was an arm of the British establishment at the time) and Britain's great ally, the Americans.

    Britain is, according to the American definition, a terrorist state.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,165 ✭✭✭✭ejmaztec


    ...and what about all the British bombs fired into civilian areas that kill children, are they ok cos they're "good bombs"?

    They're probably American bombs.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    ...and what about all the British bombs fired into civilian areas that kill children, are they ok cos they're "good bombs"?

    Aah, the mythical bombs in civilian areas.

    You know they aren't acceptable Bob, and you also know they aren't terrorism.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    But it's not me saying that, it's Nuala O'Loan (who was an arm of the British establishment at the time) and Britain's great ally, the Americans.

    Britain is, according to the American definition, a terrorist state.

    Did either of them actually say it, or are you putting two and two together and getting five


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,218 ✭✭✭bobbysands81


    If those soldiers were under orders to go out and shoot a 12 year old girl then yes, but I'm guessing they weren't.

    Surely if they weren't 'under orders' then it's murder and the soldier(s) in question should be tried as such?

    Otherwise it's quite obvious that she was intentionally targetted.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,968 ✭✭✭laoch na mona


    they aren't terrorism.

    wait when the british kill civilians its not terrorism


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    Surely if they weren't 'under orders' then it's murder and the soldier(s) in question should be tried as such?

    Otherwise it's quite obvious that she was intentionally targetted.

    Possibly. Again it sounds like a court should decide that.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,129 ✭✭✭R P McMurphy


    Deliberately Killing children isn't protecting land, it is terrorism.



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    No (I'm Irish)
    But it still doesn't address to me the fundamental disconnect. The money raised - this side of the water - may benefit solely Irish people, but the symbolism (and remembrance) is solely a glorification of fighting for another country's cause.

    Nobody should be censured or abused for supporting a Poppy Appeal

    My preference would still be for symbols and commemorations inclusive of all those Irish people who fought.

    I'll start with the 'Gloification of fighting for another country's cause' comment. If you were in the know, you would be aware that the poppy is nothing to do with the glorification of . . . I don't know why you have come to this conclusion? because the poppy is a solemn symbol for the fallen, it is to remeber the dead, their relatives, and in our case (The Irish ones) the deep sadness of loss, and he futility of war! There is "no Glorification" as you put it, and if you were to attend a Remembrance service you would know this basic fact! I will finish by saying, it doesnt really matter what people think either way, my Irish family is steeped in the tradition of remembering on the 11th of the 11th, many Irish families are, and many more are not, each to their own, but it is a massive step in the right direction that I can now wear my poppy on the streets of Dublin without abuse, twenty years ago it would have been a brave man who would have worn one walking the streets . . . . .

    PS; This thread is slowly getting derailed, away from the basic topic.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    getz wrote: »
    of you know your history [and you dont] the british were fighting the germany,italy and japan in three different continents at the same time,at one stage britain stood alone


    You left out Finland, Romania and Bulgaria. :)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,218 ✭✭✭bobbysands81


    Possibly. Again it sounds like a court should decide that.

    ...and why do you think the British terrorists didn't face a court?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,255 ✭✭✭getz


    No (I'm British/not Irish)
    Bambi wrote: »
    You left out Finland, Romania and Bulgaria. :)
    most countries in europe were involved,with the exception of swedon switzerland and ireland,if you want to know just where the irish president is on november 13 rememberance sunday,you may spot him at the ecumenical service in st patricks cathedral dublin ,


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,968 ✭✭✭laoch na mona


    getz wrote: »
    most countries in europe were involved,with the exception of swedon switzerland and ireland,

    and spain


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    and spain

    Very true. Portugal remanined neutral also, I guess someone does'nt know their history :)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    getz wrote: »
    most countries in europe were involved,with the exception of swedon switzerland and ireland,if you want to know just where the irish president is on november 13 rememberance sunday,you may spot him at the ecumenical service in st patricks cathedral dublin ,

    Will he be wearing his little poppy? :p

    It's only right that the president of the republic should attend, show there's no hard feelings...accept victory with good grace etc etc


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,165 ✭✭✭✭ejmaztec


    Bambi wrote: »
    Will he be wearing his little poppy? :p

    The poppy will be wearing him.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,285 ✭✭✭tfitzgerald


    No (I'm Irish)
    All this over a little flower ! That's worn to commerate and show a little respect to ordinary people who died a lonely death


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    All this over a little flower ! That's worn to commerate and show a little respect to ordinary people who died a lonely death

    I wouldn't call it lonely. Over 25,000 men were killed on the first day of the Somme.

    And we get upset about 9/11.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,034 ✭✭✭✭It wasn't me!


    I wouldn't call it lonely. Over 25,000 men were killed on the first day of the Somme.

    And we get upset about 9/11.

    Everyone dies alone.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20 Pete Digger


    LordSutch wrote: »
    I'll start with the 'Gloification of fighting for another country's cause' comment. If you were in the know, you would be aware that the poppy is nothing to do with the glorification of . . . I don't know why you have come to this conclusion? because the poppy is a solemn symbol for the fallen, it is to remeber the dead, their relatives, and in our case (The Irish ones) the deep sadness of loss, and he futility of war! There is "no Glorification" as you put it, and if you were to attend a Remembrance service you would know this basic fact! I will finish by saying, it doesnt really matter what people think either way, my Irish family is steeped in the tradition of remembering on the 11th of the 11th, many Irish families are, and many more are not, each to their own, but it is a massive step in the right direction that I can now wear my poppy on the streets of Dublin without abuse, twenty years ago it would have been a brave man who would have worn one walking the streets . . . . .

    PS; This thread is slowly getting derailed, away from the basic topic.

    Obviously, you take great exception to use of the word 'glorification', so I will unreservedly change it to a more solemn and appropriate term. 'Honouring' those who have fought in defence of the British Empire. Or even as simple as 'remembering' those who have fought in defence of the British Empire.

    But the basic disconnect remains. Why are we honouring or remembering those who have served in the interests of another nation? Why are we not, for example, also remembering Irish people who served in the American army or in the French Foreign Legion?

    Like I said, it's pretty much a colonial hangover. I agree with you that everyone has the right to subscribe to it, especially given family histories, without experiencing abuse. But it's still a colonial hangover.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,239 ✭✭✭✭KeithAFC


    No (I'm British/not Irish)
    Just bought more poppies. Always good to give to a good cause and to remember our fallen volunteers.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    That's worn to commerate and show a little respect to ordinary people who died a lonely death

    bollox it is :P


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