British poppy: should the Irish commemorate people who fought for the British Empire?

Gingko · 01-11-2011 12:20pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

And what about Irish people who serve alongside them in Kuwait, Kosovo, Afghanistan and Cyprus?

I do believe their "All" been used Mr. Fratton! I do understand full well that each conflict zone is different and peacekeepers are needed sometimes. But real peacekeepers please. Also the main nations that make up The U.N are also the biggest arms dealers, the whole thing is a sick joke.

laoch na mona · 01-11-2011 12:20pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

And what about Irish people who serve alongside them in Kuwait, Kosovo, Afghanistan and Cyprus?

irish troops are un peace keepers
british troops are there to get what britian wants

Pete Digger · 01-11-2011 12:23pm

LordSutch wrote: »

Can I ask you then how you feel about my comments/observations in post#431. I might also add (as I do evey year) that the Poppy appeal fund in the ROI is self contained, ergo it supporst ROI war veterans & their families only.

If the RoI Poppy Appeal supports only RoI war veterans, then that avoids at least one of the objections to it. However, there are still various issues around it that need teasing out.

The Poppy Appeal Ireland presumably works chronologically in lock-step with the main UK Poppy Appeal - that is, in the run up to, and including, Remembrance Sunday. Remembrance Sunday is a commemoration of all those who served in the service of the British Empire. Obviously, that includes many Irish people down through the years.

But it still doesn't address to me the fundamental disconnect. The money raised - this side of the water - may benefit solely Irish people, but the symbolism (and remembrance) is solely a glorification of fighting for another country's cause.

Nobody should be censured or abused for supporting a Poppy Appeal - in fact, in light of family history it may have very personal meaning - but it seems to me largely a hangover from colonial times.

My preference would still be for symbols and commemorations inclusive of all those Irish people who fought.

Fratton Fred · 01-11-2011 12:24pm

laoch na mona wrote: »

irish troops are un peace keepers
british troops are there to get what britian wants

Rubbish

laoch na mona · 01-11-2011 12:26pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Rubbish

how so?

Fratton Fred · 01-11-2011 12:28pm

laoch na mona wrote: »

how so?

There is no difference between the Irish Army and the British Army, except that the Irish Army are significantly smaller and less well equipped.

When they are sent to Afghanistan, or Kosovo, they are sent under the same mandate, with the same set of rules and the same objectives.

Tiocfaidh Armani · 01-11-2011 12:34pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

There is no difference between the Irish Army and the British Army, except that the Irish Army are significantly smaller and less well equipped.

When they are sent to Afghanistan, or Kosovo, they are sent under the same mandate, with the same set of rules and the same objectives.

They're not there on offensive actions. You can't compare the two.

bobbysands81 · 01-11-2011 12:35pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

There is no difference between the Irish Army and the British Army, except that the Irish Army are significantly smaller and less well equipped.

You also forgot to point out that Ireland has never invaded another country, we have Defence Forces, not invading forces.

laoch na mona · 01-11-2011 12:35pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

There is no difference between the Irish Army and the British Army.

Really how many countries did ireland invade
the irish army always wears the blue helmet when they go overseas
unlike the british army

Fratton Fred · 01-11-2011 12:37pm

Tiocfaidh Armani wrote: »

They're not there on offensive actions. You can't compare the two.

Neither are the British.

Fratton Fred · 01-11-2011 12:38pm

laoch na mona wrote: »

Really how many countries did ireland invade
the irish army always wears the blue helmet when they go overseas
unlike the british army

The Irish would run around Afghanistan with blue caps on would they?

I doubt it very much.

The Master of Disaster · 01-11-2011 12:41pm

No (I'm Irish)

Tiocfaidh Armani wrote: »

It's from WWI onwards, so not for me. Too many conflicts that includes the Black and Tans. Yet some west Brits ignore all that and hang off the coat tails of WWII.

Morlar wrote: »

Re-dressing that does not require a Red British Legion Poppy. Wearing that would also be in honour of the black and tans . . .

It may be a minor point but the Black and Tans were not part of the British Army, it was an auxiliary unit of the Royal Irish Constabulary. True it was made up of a significant amount of former or unemployed WW1 veterans but in their work for the Tans during 1920-21 they were not representing the armed forces, which is what the British Legion and the poppy support.

I have relatives who died during the 20th century while serving in the BA. I even have some acquaintances (from this country) who've been badly injured in Afghanistan. True it was their choice to join up and go out there but if money raised by the poppy goes to help them rebuild themselves physically and emotionally I think that's a damn sight more important than arguing over 20th century politics.

old hippy · 01-11-2011 12:44pm

If people want to wear the poppies or lillies; fine. Who are we to dictate people's choice on who or how to commemorate?

I guess they could always have an Irish poppy; a shade of green to differentiate.

laoch na mona · 01-11-2011 12:45pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

The Irish would run around Afghanistan with blue caps on would they?

I doubt it very much.

http://www.military.ie/overseas/current-missions/isaf

read it
the sum total of Óglaigh ná hÉireann personal in Afghanistan is seven

bobbysands81 · 01-11-2011 12:46pm

The Master of Disaster wrote: »

I have relatives who died during the 20th century while serving in the BA. I even have some acquaintances (from this country) who've been badly injured in Afghanistan. True it was their choice to join up and go out there but if money raised by the poppy goes to help them rebuild themselves physically and emotionally I think that's a damn sight more important than arguing over 20th century politics.

They wouldn't have had to "rebuild themselves" if their country hadn't been invading foreign nations in the first place.

I think that's a damn sight more important than arguing over 20th century politics.

Fratton Fred · 01-11-2011 12:52pm

laoch na mona wrote: »

http://www.military.ie/overseas/current-missions/isaf

read it
the sum total of Óglaigh ná hÉireann personal in Afghanistan is seven

So what, those seven rotate so there are a lot more than just seven who have been, and a lot more than seven that want to go.

They are there serving alongside the British army (amongst others). They are there under a UN mandate, voted for by Ireland. Other than a lack of political will, there is no reason why the Irish Army don't send a whole Battalion out there.

Fratton Fred · 01-11-2011 12:53pm

bobbysands81 wrote: »

They wouldn't have had to "rebuild themselves" if their country hadn't been invading foreign nations in the first place.

I think that's a damn sight more important than arguing over 20th century politics.

So how many countries has Britain invaded over the last 50 years then?

ejmaztec · 01-11-2011 12:59pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

So how many countries has Britain invaded over the last 50 years then?

Iceland was a close run thing:eek:

Fratton Fred · 01-11-2011 1:04pm

ejmaztec wrote: »

Iceland was a close run thing:eek:

You're not codding.

bobbysands81 · 01-11-2011 1:08pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

So how many countries has Britain invaded over the last 50 years then?

All the info you need is right here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_army

It never ceases to amaze me the hostile attitude that people have when the natives dare to fight back... but they have an open and warm reception for the aggressors.

Dyr · 01-11-2011 1:10pm

Why so coy all of a sudden Freddie, the poppys' remit extends way back past fifty years. Are there some events that you're a bit shy about?

Aden, Kenya, Cyprus, Suez, Malaya, all poppy fodder. Of course now that the british empire has had its chips, their army does'nt have that much scope for dirty little wars so they have to be happy with playing a supporting role in Uncle Sam's misadventures :pac:

The Master of Disaster · 01-11-2011 1:11pm

No (I'm Irish)

bobbysands81 wrote: »

They wouldn't have had to "rebuild themselves" if their country hadn't been invading foreign nations in the first place.

I think that's a damn sight more important than arguing over 20th century politics.

Well to be honest I don't consider Afghanistan to be an invasion, at least not on par with the controversy surrounding Iraq. But again we're getting into international relations and legality of intervention which isn't the point I'm getting at.

Let me put it another way. In the US, for example, the idea/adage 'support the troops' is something you will see and hear often. But that does not necessarily equate to support for the war. The same person who may be out waving a flag at a welcome home parade for the neighbour's son may also be vehemently opposed to US foreign policy. In the same vein, the BL, and associated annual poppy appeal, exist to solely for the benefit of (ex-)servicemen/women as individuals. Although the politicians and likes of X-Factor have hijacked the symbol in shameless self-promotion does not mean that it has any great political significance.

In short you may well buy and respect the idea of the poppy even if you don't agree with the war.

getz · 01-11-2011 1:19pm

No (I'm British/not Irish)

Bambi wrote: »

Why so coy all of a sudden Freddie, the poppys' remit extends way back past fifty years. Are there some events that you're a bit shy about?

Aden, Kenya, Cyprus, Suez, Malaya, all poppy fodder. Of course now that the british empire has had its chips, their army does'nt have that much scope for dirty little wars so they have to be happy with playing a supporting role in Uncle Sam's misadventures :pac:

isent it strange how some people feed on republican propaganda like kids on toffie

bobbysands81 · 01-11-2011 1:21pm

The Master of Disaster wrote: »

Well to be honest I don't consider Afghanistan to be an invasion, at least not on par with the controversy surrounding Iraq. But again we're getting into international relations and legality of intervention which isn't the point I'm getting at.

Let me put it another way. In the US, for example, the idea/adage 'support the troops' is something you will see and hear often. But that does not necessarily equate to support for the war. The same person who may be out waving a flag at a welcome home parade for the neighbour's son may also be vehemently opposed to US foreign policy. In the same vein, the BL, and associated annual poppy appeal, exist to solely for the benefit of (ex-)servicemen/women as individuals. Although the politicians and likes of X-Factor have hijacked the symbol in shameless self-promotion does not mean that it has any great political significance.

In short you may well buy and respect the idea of the poppy even if you don't agree with the war.

But (circa) 25,000 civilians have died in Afghanistan, for what reason? It's utterly disgusting.

The soldiers in the British Army have all been paid by the British Government to kill many of these people. The British Government, and taxpayers, should be looking after the welfare of these ex-Army men and women if they fall on hard times, they shouldn't be made beg as it makes it look like even their own have turned their back on them.

bobbysands81 · 01-11-2011 1:23pm

getz wrote: »

isent it strange how some people feed on republican propaganda like kids on toffie

Yes mate, it's all the fault of the big bad Republicans.

Gingko · 01-11-2011 1:26pm

Mr. Fratton! Do yourself and everyone else a real justice and log off!! Your delusional and a WUM! Thank you old boy!

The Master of Disaster · 01-11-2011 1:28pm

No (I'm Irish)

bobbysands81 wrote: »

The British Government, and taxpayers, should be looking after the welfare of these ex-Army men and women if they fall on hard times, they shouldn't be made beg as it makes it look like even their own have turned their back on them.

I wholeheartedly agree with you there. Though I think that the massive support that the BL, Help For Heroes and other charities receive shows that it's not the public who've turned their backs, it's the actual institution of government itself.

Fratton Fred · 01-11-2011 1:38pm

Bambi wrote: »

Why so coy all of a sudden Freddie, the poppys' remit extends way back past fifty years. Are there some events that you're a bit shy about?

Aden, Kenya, Cyprus, Suez, Malaya, all poppy fodder. Of course now that the british empire has had its chips, their army does'nt have that much scope for dirty little wars so they have to be happy with playing a supporting role in Uncle Sam's misadventures :pac:

Not being coy, just trying to make it relevant.

There are two reasons to buy a poppy, one to remember those who fell and the other to support those who were injured. There probably aren't too many Kenya veterans running around in need of support.

And every western army plays a supporting role to the US, it's called NATO, but you already knew that didn't you.

Fratton Fred · 01-11-2011 1:40pm

Gingko wrote: »

Mr. Fratton! Do yourself and everyone else a real justice and log off!! Your delusional and a WUM! Thank you old boy!

Sorry, but who are you?

Fratton Fred · 01-11-2011 1:43pm

bobbysands81 wrote: »

All the info you need is right here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_army

It never ceases to amaze me the hostile attitude that people have when the natives dare to fight back... but they have an open and warm reception for the aggressors.

Aah, the blind moralistic bull**** of the terrorist sympathiser.

rich1874 · 01-11-2011 1:44pm

Ah it was so refreshing (actually, not in the least bit refreshing) to see the good old argument of 'what harms does it do? If you don't like it just ignore it' so early on in the tread.

What harm does it do? it inspires a culture of 'Us against them' in Great Britain, our closest and most important neighbor. Far from commemorating the individual efforts of ordinary men and women in the past, it glorifies the cuture of British Imperialism that has caused utter devastation the world over and carries it on to create support for the current (illegal)War on (of) Terror. The British government absolutely love this time of the year, a wonderful way to deflect from the illegal wars they are involved in, and focus on the individual efforts of ordinary men and women, a lot like the 'Support our Troops' jingoism created in the USA to create a proxy support for the War on Terror, to create a culture of 'if you speak out against the war, then you obviously don't support our wonderful men and women' (sounds a lot better than 'Support our War').

If the red poppy doesn't annoy you then you're not really paying attention. If you have the attitude of 'What harm does it do?' to seemingly small things like this then what will ever change? It's the same as soldiers in uniforms being paraded about before football matches and Soccer AM showing pictures of servicemen in football jerseys as they point a machine gun out of a helicopter door. It creates a desire to support WAR!

So there is no grey area with the red poppy, if you think it does no harm then you think war does no harm. If it annoys you, then war annoys you. Simple as that. (incidentally, would it annoy you if TV personalites starting wearing flowers to commemorate dead members of the KKK, or the nazis, or the IRA, or the taliban... etc....)

Tiocfaidh Armani · 01-11-2011 1:45pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Aah, the blind moralistic bull**** of the terrorist sympathiser.

Great comeback. You have a hard-on for imperialism you sad little man.

Dyr · 01-11-2011 1:45pm

getz wrote: »

isent it strange how some people feed on republican propaganda like kids on toffie

I love nice soft toffee, but I don't need any republicans (and are'nt we all republicans in this republic? if you were'nt one you'd probably feel compelled to p**s off somewhere else I imagine) to tell me what the brits were up to post 1945, trying to keep whatever was left of their empire after the Japanese had gone through it like a dose of salts

old hippy · 01-11-2011 1:46pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Aah, the blind moralistic bull**** of the terrorist sympathiser.

Tbf, the actions of the imperialists could also be described as terrorism. I have no regard for either lot - just to clarify.

Fratton Fred · 01-11-2011 1:47pm

bobbysands81 wrote: »

But (circa) 25,000 civilians have died in Afghanistan, for what reason? It's utterly disgusting.

The soldiers in the British Army have all been paid by the British Government to kill many of these people. The British Government, and taxpayers, should be looking after the welfare of these ex-Army men and women if they fall on hard times, they shouldn't be made beg as it makes it look like even their own have turned their back on them.

You do know that the vast majority of the civilians killed were killed by the people you are defending right?

It isn't ISAF bombing girl's schools and killing teachers.

Nodin · 01-11-2011 1:48pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Not being coy, just trying to make it relevant.

There are two reasons to buy a poppy, one to remember those who fell and the other to support those who were injured. There probably aren't too many Kenya veterans running around in need of support.

And every western army plays a supporting role to the US, it's called NATO, but you already knew that didn't you.

So its mostly post 1968...Aden, NI, Iraq.

laoch na mona · 01-11-2011 1:49pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Aah, the blind moralistic bull**** of the terrorist sympathiser.

terrorists = freedom fighter
who gets to decide who is right or wrong

i'm not anti British and i agree with certain wars but i hate this view that if you fight but don't belong to a nations army you are a terrorist

Tiocfaidh Armani · 01-11-2011 1:50pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

You do know that the vast majority of the civilians killed were killed by the people you are defending right?

Where is BS81 coming out and supporting the Taliban?

Fratton Fred · 01-11-2011 1:50pm

Tiocfaidh Armani wrote: »

Great comeback. You have a hard-on for imperialism you sad little man.

Resorting to attacking the poster Mr Armani? Tut tut.

Fratton Fred · 01-11-2011 1:51pm

laoch na mona wrote: »

terrorists = freedom fighter
who gets to decide who is right or wrong

i'm not anti British and i agree with certain wars but i hate this view that if you fight but don't belong to a nations army you are a terrorist

When your strategy is to target civilians, then you are a terrorist organisation.

old hippy · 01-11-2011 1:53pm

Second attempt. Whilst I do like & appreciate the concept of the Republic, I certainly don't buy into the terrrorism and the terrorist mindset that is perpetuated by a tiny minority of die hards. And the talk of what was done to us by the brits etc. Tired, old and irrelevant.

Time to focus on the future, if we have one.

laoch na mona · 01-11-2011 1:53pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

When your strategy is to target civilians, then you are a terrorist organisation.

like the brits and the civil rights campaign?

Fratton Fred · 01-11-2011 1:55pm

Nodin wrote: »

So its mostly post 1968...Aden, NI, Iraq.

In terms of those that died, mostly pre 1945.

In terms of those that get support from the RBL, I'd say mostly the two Iraq wars and Afghanistan.

old hippy · 01-11-2011 1:55pm

laoch na mona wrote: »

like the brits and the civil rights campaign?

And the whataboutery continues until the end of time....

:rolleyes:

SWL · 01-11-2011 1:57pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Says the man who names himself after a terrorist.

You better tell the Cubans they named a street after Bobby Sands – oh wait the Americas still think the Cubans are terrorist as well.
One man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter – As a matter of interest what would you have done if a foreign force occupied your country sat back and let it happen or done something about it hopefully it’s not the former as I believe it reflects badly on the character

bobbysands81 · 01-11-2011 2:00pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Aah, the blind moralistic bull**** of the terrorist sympathiser.

Play the ball not the man FrattonFred.

That's not cricket!

...interesting that you couldn't negate my point so attacked me instead.

Fratton Fred · 01-11-2011 2:02pm

SWL wrote: »

You better tell the Cubans they named a street after Bobby Sands – oh wait the Americas still think the Cubans are terrorist as well.
One man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter – As a matter of interest what would you have done if a foreign force occupied your country sat back and let it happen or done something about it hopefully it’s not the former as I believe it reflects badly on the character

So did the Iranians. It must be nice to have such bastians of civil liberty support your "Freedom Fighter".

And don't talk about invading powers and occupying forces ffs.

bobbysands81 · 01-11-2011 2:02pm

SWL wrote: »

You better tell the Cubans they named a street after Bobby Sands – oh wait the Americas still think the Cubans are terrorist as well.
One man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter – As a matter of interest what would you have done if a foreign force occupied your country sat back and let it happen or done something about it hopefully it’s not the former as I believe it reflects badly on the character

As does Paris... and quite a few other places around the world.

It's alright to invade foreign countries with paid mercenaries but God forbid if the locals ever dare to rise up against them to protect their lands or stand up for their rights then they'll be derided as terrorists.

Fratton Fred · 01-11-2011 2:03pm

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Play the ball not the man FrattonFred.

That's not cricket!

...interesting that you couldn't negate my point so attacked me instead.

You didn't make a point to negate to be honest.

SWL · 01-11-2011 2:03pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

When your strategy is to target civilians, then you are a terrorist organisation.

Serious question did you vist NI during the war (i dont believe in calling it the troubles as it undermines the suffering people went through)

British poppy: should the Irish commemorate people who fought for the British Empire?

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