071 class

donvito99 · 08-11-2010 05:01PM

Are these facts about the 201s destroying track true? I've been curious for a while now.

And what of the new '60 kg' track they've been putting down on Dublin - Cork? What benefits does this new track have?

Cookie_Monster · 08-11-2010 07:21PM

201 are banned from some areas & lines including south of Arklow these days iirc.

Benefits of new track:
Straighter
Less bumpy
higher grade & newer steel
better support
allows for higher running speeds

donvito99 · 09-11-2010 06:08PM

So these should last longer and shouldn't be destroyed. And is there also a case of shoddy workmanship in laying track that results in reduced line speeds? I have heard rumours.

Losty Dublin · 09-11-2010 09:29PM

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

201 are banned from some areas & lines including south of Arklow these days iirc.

It's not that they are banned on certain lines, it's just that they have not been passed to run on same. 201's can run beyond Arklow subject to speed restrictions for "emergency" situations; breakdown, rescues and train transfers but there isn't any need for them to

dermo88 · 18-09-2011 11:28PM

Losty Dublin

201's can run beyond Arklow subject to speed restrictions for "emergency" situations; breakdown, rescues and train transfers but there isn't any need for them to

I always wondered why, considering that the stretch between Arklow and Enniscorthy is potentially the fastest and best laid bit of the old D&SER Rosslare line. I'd expect problems with the Slaney Bridge at Enniscorthy, although if I am not mistaken it was rebuilt or refurbished and regarded as being in pretty good condition.

South of Enniscorthy, the line becomes a bit slow and since much of it is on riverine embankment/causeway type structure, subsidence and the higher (19 tonne) axleload of a 201 will have an impact, whereas an 071 has a 17 tonne load.

Considering force = mass x velocity squared, I think the impact of a 201 on track and structure is 25% greater than an 071 at the same speed. Both types have axlehung traction motors, which do impact hard on track.

Irish track is not badly laid now, but it could be rough before. Its only in recent times that a continental type maintainance regime has been brought in. The Mark 4 coaches rode badly because they were built to work on 160kph European mainland standard track. The Mark 3's rode well on relatively poor quality Irish track because Britain also did not build or maintain track to extreme standards either.

Its just that the track was old, and there was no money to replace much of it until the late 1990's. Consider, the Mullingar-Sligo section was threatened with closure in the late 1980's early 1990's due to the deteriorating track, and track was taken from the Youghal branch to replace old track in Ballymote on the same stretch. That pretty much says how cash strapped CIE was on the track maintainance side. Yet....it managed to be a safe system and in fairness to Iarnrod Eireann, with no passenger mortalities since 1984, (touch wood) long may it continue.

donvito99

shoddy workmanship

You can say a lot of bad things about Iarnrod Eireann, but on the engineering side, they are pretty good.If the track was dodgy, its because of a lack of money, or - in the case of the Dublin-Cork stretch, its now coming up for renewal due to age and intensive use. It was last 70% relaid with CWR between 1977-1984, and some stretches were completed around 1994 under the EU Cohesion fund.

18-09-2011 11:38PM

The Shannon bridge was also an issue on the Sligo line until its renewal recently, 201s were banned past Longford due to this. I believe they can run to Sligo now but have never done so.

dermo88 · 19-09-2011 01:35AM

CIE

Must be some really light rails and infrastructure, if 18.7 tonnes per axle is too heavy. (1X1s and 071s were/are 16.8 tonnes per axle. Interestingly enough, the GSR's 800 class had 17 tonnes on each axle, with adhesive weight of 51.2 tonnes.)

Correction CIE. The 800's had an axleload of over 21 tonnes. They were restricted to Dublin-Cork operations only. There were supposed to be 5 built, but the cash ran out and 3 were completed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GSR_Class_800

CIE · 19-09-2011 02:22AM

Wow, that Wikipedia article on the 800 class is very unreferenced, and someone tagged it with a rewrite tag. Suppose I'll have to buy the Clements/McMahon book for myself then. (Wonder why 10.5 tonnes per axle on the lead bogie?)

steamengine · 19-09-2011 12:37PM

One of the endearing features of the 071 class are its accompanying sounds, the steady beat that let's you know, 'a mile off' literally, it's on its way. Friendly drivers too, must be used to the various photographers as one usually gets a blast of the horn in acknowledgement. I live about a mile from Howth Junction and around 7.45 this morning for instance I could hear a 071, possibly an empty Tara, in the distance along with the blast from its horn. The 201's are a lot quieter by comparison.

picture.php?albumid=1408&pictureid=10240

steamengine · 22-09-2011 11:14PM

Some classic GM sounds here on this video !!!:D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGjq2uJMCJ8

dowlingm · 23-09-2011 02:40PM

It's amazing what's considered obsolete in Ireland but still used heavily elsewhere. The 071 (first build 1976) has an EMD 645 series engine (2300hp 12 valve 12-645E3 according to wiki). The first 645 series engine was built in 1965. To some people here that's a 35 year old loco with a 46 year old engine design.

However, if you ask MotivePower nicely and flash the cash they will sell you a MP36PH-3 passenger locomotive with an 3600hp 16 valve 645F3 which can be configured for EPA Tier 2 compliance with a design maximum speed (using a specified gear ratio) of 108mph (but in reality most are in commuter service hauling bilevel coaches and will be more in the 60-80mph range).

Similarly, locos of a similar build era to the 071s such as the F40PH class are being rolled into shops for a rebuild and another decade or more of work.

lord lucan · 23-09-2011 02:49PM

That video should be in the porn thread Steamengine,that was savage.:)

cocoshovel · 23-09-2011 05:39PM

steamengine wrote: »

One of the endearing features of the 071 class are its accompanying sounds, the steady beat that let's you know, 'a mile off' literally, it's on its way.

Luckily I get to hear this every night at about 11:30pm. Puts me to sleep so it does

. I live about 1 mile from the railway line. However I rarely hear the 071 horns. The only horns I can ever hear from my room are the 22000's

There was one occasion when the rumble of the 071 at night was so loud and powerful, it literally began vibrating things in my room. I honestly thought there was something wrong with the train, like it was going to crash or something.

Friendly drivers too, must be used to the various photographers as one usually gets a blast of the horn in acknowledgement.

Perhaps its something more sinister :pac:

Losty Dublin · 23-09-2011 06:17PM

dowlingm wrote: »

It's amazing what's considered obsolete in Ireland but still used heavily elsewhere. The 071 (first build 1976) has an EMD 645 series engine (2300hp 12 valve 12-645E3 according to wiki). The first 645 series engine was built in 1965. To some people here that's a 35 year old loco with a 46 year old engine design.

However, if you ask MotivePower nicely and flash the cash they will sell you a MP36PH-3 passenger locomotive with an 3600hp 16 valve 645F3 which can be configured for EPA Tier 2 compliance with a design maximum speed (using a specified gear ratio) of 108mph (but in reality most are in commuter service hauling bilevel coaches and will be more in the 60-80mph range).

Similarly, locos of a similar build era to the 071s such as the F40PH class are being rolled into shops for a rebuild and another decade or more of work.

But the 071 class are still in traffic; what's your point?

steamengine · 23-09-2011 06:59PM

lord lucan wrote: »

That video should be in the porn thread Steamengine,that was savage.:)

Would qualify alright, but I think the 071's and 201's are deserving of threads of their own - Someone want to kick off one for the 201's ???

BTW credits to Dylan072 for that video, it is cool ok

lord lucan · 23-09-2011 07:45PM

steamengine wrote: »

Would qualify alright, but I think the 071's and 201's are deserving of threads of their own - Someone want to kick off one for the 201's ???

BTW credits to Dylan072 for that video, it is cool ok

I'll leave you to the 201's,never been a fan of them. Give me any other of the GM classes though.:)

dowlingm · 23-09-2011 07:47PM

Losty Dublin wrote: »

But the 071 class are still in traffic; what's your point?

More of a reflection (piqued by the older discussion above) on how IE top brass decided to get out of taking care of what they had and stripping back Inchicore with reliance on new/shiny. How long before Dick goes cap in hand for new locos for permanent way work the way the Mk3s were dismissed?

Losty Dublin · 24-09-2011 01:33AM

dowlingm wrote: »

More of a reflection (piqued by the older discussion above) on how IE top brass decided to get out of taking care of what they had and stripping back Inchicore with reliance on new/shiny. How long before Dick goes cap in hand for new locos for permanent way work the way the Mk3s were dismissed?

All the 071 class engines were sent away and overhauled several years ago so they had their heavy duty revamps and they still receive their regular services. There's enough work to keep them going for now, in spite of what some people here may say

newmug · 24-09-2011 02:06AM

Losty Dublin wrote: »

All the 071 class engines were sent away and overhauled several years ago so they had their heavy duty revamps and they still receive their regular services. There's enough work to keep them going for now, in spite of what some people here may say

What about the rest of the perfectly servicable GM's and carraiges? Down to Hammond Lane with them for no good reason, to be replaced by heaps of sh1te!

dowlingm · 24-09-2011 03:01AM

I doubt anything will come of it (certainly not until after the planned line work in 2014 or so even if the business case was made out) but there is the occasional rumour of timber from Derry to Waterford which if it came to pass would give the 071/111 units even more work - the spotters would lose their heads completely with glee if the services took the Lisburn-Antrim branch

Losty Dublin · 24-09-2011 11:06AM

newmug wrote: »

What about the rest of the perfectly servicable GM's and carraiges? Down to Hammond Lane with them for no good reason, to be replaced by heaps of sh1te!

If you mean the 121, 141 and 181 classes, sorry to say but they were life expired and generally knackered in spite of what people think. Servicing them was taking longer and they required attention more and more often as they were failing in duty a lot. They are underpowered for any heavy freight duties such as zinc, PW or liners, they run at lower speeds which makes them impractical for mainline passenger trains and their last branch and freight links no longer remain.

The Mark 3's were all at or close to life expiry as well and would be due a massive overhaul if they were kept in service; this was to include probable contained WC tanks, probable new bogies, rewiring and replacement of air conditioning units, new braking equipment, renewal of self contained power generators for the PP sets as well as relevant attention to guard vans for the standard sets.

From here on it gets down to practicalities and economics. After the costly corrosion issues with the Mark 2 refits it was clear that the prices of refit and replacement of old and less capable locos would have to compete with the ordering in of new stock. Old stock would have to be taken out of service, refurbished and then returned to service, all while replacing said carriage stock for long periods of time; this would have taken years or you can order in from new and one day you replace it with a new set; this has been done for years as the various DMU sets came on stream in lieu on branch and suburban services. Add in lower staffing costs (No need for guards or shunters), better flexibility (some morning DMU sets spilt to form 2 3 car sets, something carriages can't), time saved at terminal stations (no need to turn locos), simpler PW costs (less need for loops and points and lighter axle loads), lower fuel costs (New engines are lighter on emissions, cleaner and only haul what's needed so fuel bills are lower), safer (most old stock was slam door, new stock is electric door. RPSI get away with slam door in Ireland on the basis that all doors are stewarded at station, something that's not practical on a daily basis) and the fact that the new sets are more up to spec and the case to retain the old set up just isn't as good.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see more locos out there but the long term future is units and modern ones at that.

Cookie_Monster · 24-09-2011 11:24AM

Losty Dublin wrote: »

If you mean the 121, 141 and 181 classes, sorry to say but they were life expired and generally knackered in spite of what people think.

I presume he meant the 201s that have been mothballed already...

Losty Dublin · 24-09-2011 11:49AM

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

I presume he meant the 201s that have been mothballed already...

The 10 locos in storage (201-205 and 21-214) are not fitted to work push pull sets so the 22 locos that can remain in active traffic can work pretty much all duties required. The stopped locos are started up weekly to maintain their engines, batteries and generator systems are working and fit but given that there isn't duties for them just yet they will remain out of traffic for now.

In any case, 10 locos would only allow for at best 5 carriage sets to remain in traffic had any been kept and then only on simple links so the benefit of keeping same wouldn't be at all high; not ideal for fleet managers to make best use of same.

dowlingm · 24-09-2011 07:45PM

Losty - are some of the nonPPs being used on the container runs now? Surely that's a better option than using diesel to run them up and idle them every so often?

Losty Dublin · 24-09-2011 09:44PM

dowlingm wrote: »

Losty - are some of the nonPPs being used on the container runs now? Surely that's a better option than using diesel to run them up and idle them every so often?

Not that I am aware of, Mr D. There is a thread on IRN that tracks their whereabouts and it hasn't mentioned any of them out in recent times. That's not to say that they aren't used on transfer works around Dublin but there isn't any mention of them if they are. The advantage of keeping the PP compatible units out there is that it's a common fleet but we should remember that there just isn't as much freight out there for the loco fleet to haul as it is and that which suited the baby GM's is recently gone (Beet and Limerick Shale/Cement) as well.

dermo88 · 25-09-2011 12:23AM

Losty Dublin

Thanks for those posts, it gives the information in a rational non emotive manner without resorting to hyperbole.

All to often opinions on this section were dressed up as fact. I could do that as well as any of them out there.

But this is not to say that we love CIE. We'll watch them....carefully.

corktina · 25-09-2011 05:18PM

i doubt many on here will agree about the Mk3s being close to life expiry, granted they would have needed major overhauls to continue but that would have been cheaper and more acceptable than replacing them with the inferior Mk4s. Mk3s in the UK are still running in front line 125mph service and will be for many years to come.

maybe it speaks volumes about the care and maintenance they got that noone wants them in the Uk (thus far)

Losty Dublin · 25-09-2011 07:34PM

corktina wrote: »

i doubt many on here will agree about the Mk3s being close to life expiry, granted they would have needed major overhauls to continue but that would have been cheaper and more acceptable than replacing them with the inferior Mk4s. Mk3s in the UK are still running in front line 125mph service and will be for many years to come.

maybe it speaks volumes about the care and maintenance they got that noone wants them in the Uk (thus far)

I don't wish to pick fights on this but it's never as simple of assuming that it's a matter of new seats and away you go. Mark 3's run in the UK but they run fast services with specialist motive power units and they are shifting millions of people more in a week than Ireland needs shifted in a year and often on 4 track lines, all things we don't have. Irish Rail could easily have them running at 125 MPH and of course, they could have been refitted but what would haul them? The answer would have to be new locos and on new track.

To put it into another context; for locos to haul the equivalent links that the 22000 sets now offer, at least 67 locos would need to be available. As it stands, there are 50 locos on hand (32 201 and 18 071) and that's before you cover Cork/Belfast sets and the freight workings (These take a good 20 locos to cover). As it stands today, there are just 10 spare locos. Add that cost to that of new carriages and the economics of 22000's become a lot clearer.

corktina · 25-09-2011 08:18PM

i didnt say replace the seats, i said major overhaul.

oh and you'dneed just the same number of locos to use the m3s in push pull mode as you would with the mk4s,

your post doesnt make sense and looks like an attempt to justify IEs actions whilst ignoring the point made.

murphaph · 25-09-2011 08:50PM

The Mk IIIs should not have been scrapped. They should have been refurbished like they would have been in the UK or Germany etc. FFS I go to work on refurbished GDR rolling stock that will be running for many years to come.

The baby GMs were life expired and there wasn't any point in holding on to them. That's fair enough.

I think IE just took the easy option, rather than embarking on a refurb of the MkIII stock. They could have converted a few more coaches to DVTs during the refurb and they'd have had no need to buy any mkIVs at all IMO.

IE do tend to blow their cash on shiny and new rather than focus on the priorities: the permanent way is a joke in Ireland. Dublin-Cork still has ridiculous speed restrictions. They should have rebuilt the line and removed the sharpest curves, Dublin-Cork should be a minimum of 160km/h throughout and 200km/h where possible.

IE will now be eaten alive by the bus competition on the motorways.

071 class

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