Jürgen Stark: Abandon the Croke Park Agreement, cut welfare

Bannasidhe · 13-09-2011 01:30PM

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

I already made my suggestions - reform from the top down, not snip away at the bottom and middle.

If a company has acquired massive debts and is in financial trouble it will cut overheads, introduce efficiency measures, punish those responsible and bring in procedures to ensure it doesn't happen again.

But if that company's only solution is to cut lower level staff, reduce the salaries of middle and lower significantly and not properly maintain it's equipment while the Board of Directors continues to draw large salaries and expenses and upper management takes a small wage adjustment before retiring with generous severance packages there would be a stockholder revolt. Moral and productivity would suffer.

However, if the reforms were to start at the top - with the CEO and directors slashing their salaries, upper management doing likewise and those in charge made accountable and dismissed. The middle and lower would not feel like they are the ones who are making the sacrifices. The stockholders would feel senior management and the board have things in hand and despite the problems a general air of 'all in this together' can be generated.

Ireland is pursuing the former and we, the shareholders, are left bewildered, confused and worried.

I think it is disingenuous to place all the blame on Labour and Gilmore's Trade Union past - if (and it's a big 'IF') he did move against the unions there would be references to his 'Stickie' past.

FF brought in benchmarking and the Croke Park Agreement - not Labour.

FG have a substantial majority yet are reforming absolutely NOTHING.

ALL of our political parties are equally liable (except the PD's - they all should be placed on a small, isolated island in the South Pacific with only an autographed photo of Margaret Thatcher for company).

fliball123 · 13-09-2011 01:34PM

wolfpawnat wrote: »

Don't worry fliball, not everyone is going on holiday, the furthest I have been in years is to my family's for a few days!;)

A few Euros here and there for saving is not actually a bad thing. I try to save about a €5 every fortnight so I can hopefully deal with xmas and when my son starts school and will then not have to get the Back to School Allowance! Doesn't often happen though as usually I have to take it out to pay for healthcare or if he needs new shoes

Look Wolf I know that not all are.....The problem is there are those on there who have no intension of getting off...

The real problem with this country from all facets is the sense of entitlement and expectation that the tax payer will pick up the tab..From people on the dole to cnuting bankers to politicians to public sector employees...Well the goose that lays the golden egg (taxes) is being killed slowly by increased and new stealth taxes...I find it laughable as a non bank affiliated tax payer put to the pin of his collar every month to pay for my house and other bills that I cannot go on holiday when others on the welfare can...What kind of diverse universe are we living in when someone doing 50 odd hours a week has a lesser lifestyle than people who have never worked?

femur61 · 13-09-2011 01:36PM

http://www.iiea.com/blogosphere/public-sector-pay-at-a-glance

I'd say this report has rattled people in the PS in Europe, PS here earn some of the highest wages with some of the least number of hours worked.

doomed · 13-09-2011 01:37PM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

ALL of our political parties are equally liable (except the PD's -).

THE PDS? Jesus wept!. The Champions of light regulation. I'm sure Seanie Fitz was a fan of theirs too.

wolfpawnat · 13-09-2011 01:38PM

fliball123 wrote: »

Look Wolf I know that not all are.....The problem is there are those on there who have no intension of getting off...

The real problem with this country from all facets is the sense of entitlement and expectation that the tax payer will pick up the tab..From people on the dole to cnuting bankers to politicians to public sector employees...Well the goose that lays the golden egg (taxes) is being killed slowly by increased and new stealth taxes...I find it laughable as a non bank affiliated tax payer put to the pin of his collar every month to pay for my house and other bills that I cannot go on holiday when others on the welfare can...What kind of diverse universe are we living in when someone doing 50 odd hours a week has a lesser lifestyle than people who have never worked?

Sure anyone between €30-€60k is the worst off in this society, they have no medical cards, and are taxed to the hilt. Their children have to pay reg fees for college and they are always the ones that are never thought of by everyone else!

Bannasidhe · 13-09-2011 01:40PM

doomed wrote: »

THE PDS? Jesus wept!. The Champions of light regulation. I'm sure Seanie Fitz was a fan of theirs too.

I was going to advocate public executions using a guillotine for them...but then I remembered I don't agree with Capital Punishment...but in some cases I may be open to persuasion.

fliball123 · 13-09-2011 01:41PM

wolfpawnat wrote: »

Sure anyone between €30-€60k is the worst off in this society, they have no medical cards, and are taxed to the hilt. Their children have to pay reg fees for college and they are always the ones that are never thought of by everyone else!

I aggree and its this well of people who will be hit the hardest again next budget..There needs to be a spread of the pain here..

The Social needs to be cut and those on there for more then 3/4 years need to get the 2 finger salute.

There needs to be cuts to public sector pay and pensions aswell as increase in wage this Stark guy is just telling us how it is.. I just hope the Fine Gealers in the cabinet take note as there 2:1 taxes to cuts is the main reason why I voted for them and if they do not stick to it they will lose a lot of popularity IMO

wolfpawnat · 13-09-2011 01:48PM

fliball123 wrote: »

I aggree and its this well of people who will be hit the hardest again next budget..There needs to be a spread of the pain here..

The Social needs to be cut and those on there for more then 3/4 years need to get the 2 finger salute.

There needs to be cuts to public sector pay and pensions aswell as increase in wage this Stark guy is just telling us how it is.. I just hope the Fine Gealers in the cabinet take note as there 2:1 taxes to cuts is the main reason why I voted for them and if they do not stick to it they will lose a lot of popularity IMO

Also I think no one here would disagree with the idea of maybe shaving a little bit extra off everyone so that we can get employment up and at the very least get 100,000 (preferably all, but lets aim realistic here) off the live register because in a country of 4 million we should not have such a high percentage of 18-66 yo without work! Surely there are areas where we can create employment! I refuse to believe in a country where there are so many educated people that we cannot find some areas where we can get some off the dole queue.

And the worst off in budgets are always the low to middle income workers! Especially those with children! I know those of us on the SW short term see it as an absolute culture shock (I used earn 300 a week plus tips as a waitress and near 400 in archaeology) but we are all suffering (except the big boys of course)

doomed · 13-09-2011 01:48PM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I was going to advocate public executions using a guillotine for them...but then I remembered I don't agree with Capital Punishment...but in some cases I may be open to persuasion.

Sorry - misread your post.
Capital punishment? Damn. Can't do it. Liberal tendancy surfaces.

Send them to work among the starving abroad and see if they can persuade them that what they really need is trickledown instead of food.

Bannasidhe · 13-09-2011 01:53PM

fliball123 wrote: »

I aggree and its this well of people who will be hit the hardest again next budget..There needs to be a spread of the pain here..

The Social needs to be cut and those on there for more then 3/4 years need to get the 2 finger salute.

There needs to be cuts to public sector pay and pensions aswell as increase in wage this Stark guy is just telling us how it is.. I just hope the Fine Gealers in the cabinet take note as there 2:1 taxes to cuts is the main reason why I voted for them and if they do not stick to it they will lose a lot of popularity IMO

Personally, I am bloody grateful that I live in a country that does provide a security net. I also know that that system is being abused. The point myself and Wolfpawnat are making is that it is too easy to lump all SW recipients into the category of spongers - and some are guilty of that but not the majority. Are ALL priests child abusers? Most of us on SW are trying to get by best we can while looking for employment.

If they have to cut the dole - ok. I can make another hole in my belt and stretch the chilli out to 3 days dinner instead of two.
But I want to see those top PS earners (and semi-state) take a real cut too!

Yes, the middle is being drained dry - I used to be one of those 30 - 60 k workers. I bitched every month when I saw my wage slip. I RANTED about the pension levy etc. Now I'd settle for 15 - 20k - I'm getting mighty sick of chilli.

wolfpawnat · 13-09-2011 01:56PM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I'm getting mighty sick of chilli.

Same, the day I am off this I will never eat chilli or stew again!!!!

Kinski · 13-09-2011 02:17PM

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Courses in installing and maintaining Windows XP Professional and Windows Server 2003? Good old FAS! Our govt's "smart economy" strategy is really putting us at the cutting edge of developments in the IT sector...

Bannasidhe · 13-09-2011 02:24PM

This article highlights some of the concerns I have expressed:

'Progress' report highlights living expenses and increase in serious crime
Tuesday, September 13, 2011 - 01:18 PM

New figures from the CSO show that Ireland is still an expensive place to live, where serious crime is increasing and class sizes are amongst the biggest in Europe.

The "Measuring Ireland's Progress" report provides a snapshot of life in 2010, revealing that our country now has the highest proportion of young people in the EU.

This report confirms we were still in recession in 2010, and says Ireland was the fifth most expensive State in the EU, with prices 18% above average.

Average class size in primary was second highest in Europe and our 15-year-olds were below average in maths, but above average in literacy.

In the area of health, current public spending on health averaged €3,234 per person, an increase of more than half on the 2000 level.

And on crime, serious offences are up - kidnappings doubled, drug crime increased by two thirds, and weapons offences were up by more than half.

Read more: http://www.examiner.ie/breakingnews/ireland/progress-report-highlights-living-expenses-and-increase-in-serious-crime-520355.html#ixzz1Xq2drrZY

It's more than our economy that's in trouble - but the government seem incapable of realising the long-term consequences of their policies.

donegal100 · 13-09-2011 02:33PM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Or we could learn the lessons of history and see what actually worked the last time there was a massive global recession - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Deal

But sure we all know FDR was a well know leftie...oh hang on. No he wasn't.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
The New Deal was a failure, pre WW2 unemployment in USA was higer than when the New Deal was introduced.
I don't have the stats on today's social welfare, but if a country cannot cut in a recession or in a boom, how do you keep spending under control? The fact is we're broke and everyone, from public sector workers, those on social welfare, private sector workers and the rich will need to contribute.

meglome · 13-09-2011 02:37PM

galway2007 wrote: »

hope you feel better after you rant and hate to put a damper on you but you should read this
http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0912/ecb2-business.html

Rant?!? hate?!?! Permabear stated some facts. We are borrowing money from others to pay high social welfare and high public service wages. Higher than the people we're borrowing the money off. In an ideal world there would be no need to cut anything, in an an ideal world the many genuine unemployed wouldn't get less. However in what we call reality there will need to be cuts, there is no choice. And the sooner Labour stop bull****ting people about the Croke Park Agreement the better.

Permabear · 13-09-2011 02:37PM

This post has been deleted.

donegal100 · 13-09-2011 02:40PM

The New Deal was a failure. Pre world war 2 unemployment in USA was higher than when the New Deal began.
We all have to make sacrifices, those on welfare, those in the public sector, those in the private sector and the rich. The fact is we're broke and even with no bank bailout would still be broke.

Final point: There are many forms of welfare including Mortgage interest relief, relief on waste charges, medical charges, business 'expenses' and many more. This 'middle class' relief should end as well.

Kinski · 13-09-2011 02:47PM

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

I see. But would it really be worth someone's while taking those courses now? I think Microsoft plan to drop support for XP in 2014. I presume these corporations will have switched to Windows 7 by then? If they are in the process of upgrading, wouldn't it be better to offer a similar course for 7, and for Server 2008?

FÁS also offers the ECDL online, which wolfpawnat did say she was interested in doing.

I'm sure there's some useful stuff on there; I wasn't having a go at you for posting it, in case that's what you thought.

RedXIV · 13-09-2011 02:47PM

The "Measuring Ireland's Progress" report provides a snapshot of life in 2010, revealing that our country now has the highest proportion of young people in the EU.

This is a good thing, we don't want to end up as alot of other countries are with a huge amount of people on pensions and not enough young people working to pay those pensions.

Also, if you look here as regards crime, you'll see even though we've an increase, we're still alot lower on the scale than our european counterparts in Germany, France, the UK etc etc.

sarumite · 13-09-2011 02:48PM

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Off topic: Its not that they proceed a glacial pace, sometimes they cannot proceed at all. In science we use a lot of automated instruments (Mass spec, HPLC's, FACS etc). These all come with custom software that is rarely to never updated by the vendor. These usually have their own terminals for operations so if the software vendor doesn't update the software, updating the terminal to Windows 7 is both counter productive and an uneccessary expense. It was only a couple of years ago that I was using an old imaging machine that ran on windows 3. We also had a backup server for all our data that runs on 2003. This server was for several instrumetns and therefore was being used 24/7. Everytime discussion of updating software came up, it was postponed until there was a downtime....which never happened.

fliball123 · 13-09-2011 02:53PM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Personally, I am bloody grateful that I live in a country that does provide a security net. I also know that that system is being abused. The point myself and Wolfpawnat are making is that it is too easy to lump all SW recipients into the category of spongers - and some are guilty of that but not the majority. Are ALL priests child abusers? Most of us on SW are trying to get by best we can while looking for employment.

If they have to cut the dole - ok. I can make another hole in my belt and stretch the chilli out to 3 days dinner instead of two.
But I want to see those top PS earners (and semi-state) take a real cut too!

Yes, the middle is being drained dry - I used to be one of those 30 - 60 k workers. I bitched every month when I saw my wage slip. I RANTED about the pension levy etc. Now I'd settle for 15 - 20k - I'm getting mighty sick of chilli.

I wont argue with you on that one PS pay is also a massive burden on the tax payer

fliball123 · 13-09-2011 02:59PM

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

I would double check that as far as I am aware XP is no longer supported by microsoft

Kinski · 13-09-2011 03:01PM

fliball123 wrote: »

I would double check that as far as I am aware XP is no longer supported by microsoft

It is.

Permabear · 13-09-2011 03:01PM

This post has been deleted.

13-09-2011 03:02PM

fliball123 wrote: »

I would double check that as far as I am aware XP is no longer supported by microsoft

XP (sp3) is still supported

http://support.microsoft.com/lifecycle/?p1=12757

fliball123 · 13-09-2011 03:03PM

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

XP (sp3) is still supported

http://support.microsoft.com/lifecycle/?p1=12757

yeah spot on Robbie

Guramoogah · 13-09-2011 03:04PM

Mr Stark, the top German official in the ECB, argues that public sector pay in Ireland is too high by euro zone standards and should be cut to help restore order to the country’s public finances.

Mr Stark should be made aware that Irish prices are 18 to 20% higher by euro zone standards. Ireland is the fifth most expensive country in Europe, according to today's news from the CSO.

fliball123 · 13-09-2011 03:07PM

Guramoogah wrote: »

Mr Stark should be made aware that Irish prices are 18 to 20% higher by euro zone standards. Ireland is the fifth most expensive country in Europe, according to today's news from the CSO.

I think this is a load of sh1t ... maybe if you stick to the brand names and buying in the popular shops..I can get a week of grosseries for under 70 quid for 3 adults and a baby (no movie quips please

)

clothes the likes of Pennys and tescos and dunnes are very affordable...You have to shop around ...and everyone did the high prices will start coming down.

Lumbo · 13-09-2011 03:11PM

fliball123 wrote: »

I think this is a load of sh1t ... maybe if you stick to the brand names and buying in the popular shops..I can get a week of grosseries for under 70 quid for 3 adults and a baby (no movie quips please )

clothes the likes of Pennys and tescos and dunnes are very affordable...You have to shop around ...and everyone did the high prices will start coming down.

Oh look, it's Mary Harney.

Godge · 13-09-2011 03:12PM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I already made my suggestions - reform from the top down, not snip away at the bottom and middle.

If a company has acquired massive debts and is in financial trouble it will cut overheads, introduce efficiency measures, punish those responsible and bring in procedures to ensure it doesn't happen again.

But if that company's only solution is to cut lower level staff, reduce the salaries of middle and lower significantly and not properly maintain it's equipment while the Board of Directors continues to draw large salaries and expenses and upper management takes a small wage adjustment before retiring with generous severance packages there would be a stockholder revolt. Moral and productivity would suffer.

However, if the reforms were to start at the top - with the CEO and directors slashing their salaries, upper management doing likewise and those in charge made accountable and dismissed. The middle and lower would not feel like they are the ones who are making the sacrifices. The stockholders would feel senior management and the board have things in hand and despite the problems a general air of 'all in this together' can be generated.

Ireland is pursuing the former and we, the shareholders, are left bewildered, confused and worried.

I think it is disingenuous to place all the blame on Labour and Gilmore's Trade Union past - if (and it's a big 'IF') he did move against the unions there would be references to his 'Stickie' past.

FF brought in benchmarking and the Croke Park Agreement - not Labour.

FG have a substantial majority yet are reforming absolutely NOTHING.

ALL of our political parties are equally liable (except the PD's - they all should be placed on a small, isolated island in the South Pacific with only an autographed photo of Margaret Thatcher for company).

To be fair, I think the salary for the Taoiseach is now over 30% down on its highest point, so the biggest cuts are happening at the top. Also both the pension levy and the public sector pay cut had bigger cuts at the top rather than the bottom. We have also dumped the Celtic Tiger cheerleaders of FF. The new government was elected on a huge majority so there is a real sense of "we are all in this together" from that 65% or so who voted for them. So your points have already been addressed.

I hate to keep repeating myself but some of the biggest disrepancies in public service pay are at or near the bottom of the pile - clerical officers earning 34,000 and teachers earning 60,000 at the top of their scales being two examples - but you cannot address these issues without tackling at the same time the excessive social welfare rates by even generous European standards and the excessive prices in the sheltered domestic private economy e.g. the non-exporting services sectors.

Jürgen Stark: Abandon the Croke Park Agreement, cut welfare

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