Jürgen Stark: Abandon the Croke Park Agreement, cut welfare

Finnbar01 · 12-09-2011 10:15PM

ChRoMe wrote: »

Start transferring part of their wealth and distribute it to the rest of society.

Ah I see the good old 'life owes me a living' mantra.

Finnbar01 · 12-09-2011 10:25PM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Does the same apply to barristers and MDs?

7 years of university (actually I have 2 primary degrees - and yes - I paid fees and worked) so 10 years of university leading to a specialisation and I should just like that my turn hand to something else?

What else did you have in mind?
Would thou likest fries with that good sire? Can I interest thee in supersizing?

I did that 30 years ago (and stacked shelves in Dunnes, worked on a bread round, picked spuds) - is that the best Ireland can offer me, and the many like me?

Most likely I will have to emigrate (again!) and my taxes will go to another exchequer.

I don't mean to be rude but your sense of entitlement is shocking and no wonder this country is in the mess that it's in ( yes I know it's a cliché).

You studied in university for seven years but that was your choice. Just because you have two degrees, that doesn't mean that you automatically are entitled to a job and a well paid one at that.

When you posted this: 'is that the best Ireland can offer me', who exactly is this Ireland entity that you assume needs to look after you?

ballyharpat · 12-09-2011 10:33PM

anyway, back on topic.........
The dole should definitely be cut, I was on it last year for a year, I had 100e left over every week, to buy stuff that are not necessities, It should be cut by 50e without a doubt. I went and got a job on minimum wage, realised that I was out 5 days a week for e100 and had to cover expenses of working on that wage. There is no incentive to work, I am working now, thank God I got a job paying above minimum wage.
WHat people don't seem to realise id that social welfare is not supposed to be high enough for you to live on, it should be enough for you to 'get by' when you are looking for a job. WHen you are working, you are supposed to be saving some of your wages, those savings should be used to pay mortgage and other high bills like car insurance etc., as they arise when you are 'looking' for work.
THis countries politics are a joke, too many bleeding hearts, we are turning into a nanny state, quit pissing and moaning about the banks, IT"S DONE!!!!, move on.
For someone to suggest taxing assets is insane, so if you work hard, pay high taxes and live frugally, you are gonna be taxed for it, but if you spend every penny and get into debt, we'll bail you out-anyone else see the insanity in that? I read a while back as well that there was a suggestion of taxing savings

Blame the government, blame the banks, blah blah blah, they shouldn't have encouraged us, they shouldn't have given us the money........grow a pair of balls, take responsibility for your f**k up.
Or would you prefer we be a 'nanny state' and have the government take care of everything for us????

AlekSmart · 12-09-2011 10:40PM

wolfpawnat wrote: »

Not really, Child Benefit and JSA are lower in England but they have free healthcare and necessary dental care for under 12s, many have subsidised cooked school lunches as part of the school system, free books for school and subsidised school uniforms, we don't.

Well,in fact we do,but not if you are lucky enough to have a job,any job,then your children will recieve nothing.

What appears to have been deliberately cast aside here by successive recent Governments is the principle that Social Welfare Payments were/are intended as primarily a form of INSURANCE,which would allow those insured to survive a period of unemployment/sickness etc.

Instead we saw a reinvention of the concept to allow for the formulation of a society in which the principle of gainful employment was constantly lowered in terms of broad esteem.

As Joan Burton admitted to recently,the sheer scale of benefit classifications in Ireland is magnificent,with much overlapping of responsible agencies and a largely absent ability to cross reference between them.

Permabear · 12-09-2011 11:23PM

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ballyharpat · 12-09-2011 11:39PM

I agree with the above postings, I went to College for tourism and marketing, I made decent money for two years, but then decided to emigrate. I went to the states and found out that there was good money in construction, I became a labourer and then a carpenter, after 8 years, started my own business. Did that for two/three years and decided to come home. FOund very little work in construction here and tried starting my own business, found out quickly it wasn't working out, wanted to be a Psychotherapist-my dream, unfortunately after looking at job openings and the amount of unemployed counselors etc., I decided this was not practical and I would be on the breadline for a few years. I then had a decision to make, go to college for a degree in a market that is already saturated, or train for a job that there is a requirement and openings for, so here I am 4 months after starting my course and 2 months working behind me. It's not an enormous sum of money, but I compromised and am caring for people and making a few euro while still following my degree part-time.
All my choices and anything that went wrong or right in life I take full responsibility for.

Rubik. · 12-09-2011 11:45PM

Yet another - shock, horror we have a social welfare bill of 20 billion thread. Ireland spends less as a percentage of gross national income on social welfare than all but 2 EU countries. Yes, our spending presently far exceeds our income - hence the cutting. We are on target to have a deficit of less than 3 percent by 2015, when the overall social welfare bill will be reduced to around 17 billion. So why would we make deeper social welfare cuts than those already planned?

http://www.ronanlyons.com/2010/11/02/where-should-ireland-cut-its-public-spending-thoughts-for-budget-2011-ii/

Bannasidhe · 13-09-2011 12:17AM

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

So now I should retrain - provided I can get a place on a FAS course - something my son has been trying to do for a year - to learn a job for which I have little or no aptitude and try and enter the job market in my new field as a nearly 50 year old woman with no experience?

You assume I have not explored this option.

Do you think I haven't looked at FAS courses? The ones I do have a aptitude for were specifically aimed at under 31's. The starter technology courses were full. Because of my educational qualifications I would not get VTOS or BTEA. I do not qualify for free fees and cannot afford to pay.

Wolfpawnat wrote earlier of how her partner is retraining and the reaction from some was negative to say the least. Seems sometimes like you are damned if you do and damned if you don't...

Now folks - seriously - no sarcasm whatsoever -what are my options?

Finnbar01 wrote: »

I don't mean to be rude but your sense of entitlement is shocking and no wonder this country is in the mess that it's in ( yes I know it's a cliché).

You studied in university for seven years but that was your choice. Just because you have two degrees, that doesn't mean that you automatically are entitled to a job and a well paid one at that.

When you posted this: 'is that the best Ireland can offer me', who exactly is this Ireland entity that you assume needs to look after you?

I an entitled to have a government which treats all the citizens of the State equally - not protect an elite.

I am entitled to honesty from my elected representatives. Not a pack of hypocrites who cut the income of the poorest, squeeze the middle while taking the barest trim themselves.

I am entitled to be treated with respect by government departments.

I am a citizen of Ireland - I am entitled to be treated the same as every other citizen. No better. No worse.

I never said I was entitled to a job- I said I WANTED. I said I would work for 15,000 and a bus pass!

For over a decade Government policy has been to encourage education. Free fees! Retrain! Knowledge economy! Increase your employment opportunities!!!!

What do those who listen get for our efforts - a chance to emigrate.
What are those thousands of students who just began their degrees in the Humanities going to do at the end? All retrain for jobs in technology? What happens to the people who trained for the technology jobs then? What do they retrain for?
Where are all those who trained to fill the jobs crises in the Construction industry? How many are working now - perhaps they should all apply for that night porter job in Carlow? I have actually worked as a Night Porter - but not in Carlow...

We need a REAL job creation initiative - not this bloody intern scheme which is already being abused.

Cut if they must - but they must also help create.

Universities still need teaching staff.
Schools still need teachers (and special Needs Assistants).
Hospitals still need nurses and doctors and radiologists.
We still need Guards.
and firefighters.
and ambulance drivers
and.....

You cannot keep whittling away at front-line services for long before the whole house of cards comes crashing down.

The banks we own must allow the cash to flow for small businesses - or face real government sanction.

Those willing to take the risk and try and start their own business (placing their home on the line as has been described here) they should be supported- not starved of credit and drowned in red tape. Hell, according to NAMA it's all about the business plan. If your business plan is good apparently you can arrange a 200 k P.A salary even if millions in debt.

Finnbar01 · 13-09-2011 12:35AM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I an entitled to have a government which treats all the citizens of the State equally - not protect an elite.

I am entitled to honesty from my elected representatives. Not a pack of hypocrites who cut the income of the poorest, squeeze the middle while taking the barest trim themselves.

I am entitled to be treated with respect by government departments.

I am a citizen of Ireland - I am entitled to be treated the same as every other citizen. No better. No worse.

Again I don't mean to be rude but you are entitled to nothing. And if any bat sh*te socialist or politician told you any different, you have being had.

The state and its minions have at its centre. its own interests, not yours or mine.

I never said I was entitled - I said I WANTED. I said I would work for 15,000 and a bus pass!

What you want and what you get are two totally different things. I would take any job at the moment, including chewing bread for toothless chickens.

For over a decade Government policy was to encourage education. Free fees! Retrain! Knowledge economy!
What do we get for our efforts - a chance to emigrate.
What are those thousands of students who just began their degrees in the Humanities going to do at the end? All retrain for jobs in technology? What happens to the people who trained for the technology jobs then? What do they retrain for?

People made a choice what they wanted to study . You are paid what the market deems appropriate. I know it sounds tough but that's the way it is.

Bannasidhe · 13-09-2011 12:56AM

Finnbar01 wrote: »

Again I don't mean to be rude but you are entitled to nothing. And if any bat sh*te socialist or politician told you any different, you have being had.

The state and its minions have at its centre. its own interests, not yours or mine.

What you want and what you get are two totally different things. I would take any job at the moment, including chewing bread for toothless chickens.

People made a choice what they wanted to study . You are paid what the market deems appropriate. I know it sounds tough but that's the way it is.

You may not wish to be rude - but you are certainly being very patronising.

I do not need anyone to tell me what to think. I can think for myself thank you.

And the Constitution is quite clear - we are all entitled to our rights - as citizens we are equal under the law and entitled to the protection of the State. Its why we are called 'citizens'. See- I can be patronising too

Now tell me about this chewing job - I still have most of my own teeth - best get use out of them before they are all extracted for the crime of having cavities while reliant on the medical health card.

Crazy Horse 6 · 13-09-2011 07:43AM

ballyharpat wrote: »

anyway, back on topic.........
The dole should definitely be cut, I was on it last year for a year, I had 100e left over every week, to buy stuff that are not necessities, It should be cut by 50e without a doubt. I went and got a job on minimum wage, realised that I was out 5 days a week for e100 and had to cover expenses of working on that wage. There is no incentive to work, I am working now, thank God I got a job paying above minimum wage.
WHat people don't seem to realise id that social welfare is not supposed to be high enough for you to live on, it should be enough for you to 'get by' when you are looking for a job. WHen you are working, you are supposed to be saving some of your wages, those savings should be used to pay mortgage and other high bills like car insurance etc., as they arise when you are 'looking' for work.
THis countries politics are a joke, too many bleeding hearts, we are turning into a nanny state, quit pissing and moaning about the banks, IT"S DONE!!!!, move on.
For someone to suggest taxing assets is insane, so if you work hard, pay high taxes and live frugally, you are gonna be taxed for it, but if you spend every penny and get into debt, we'll bail you out-anyone else see the insanity in that? I read a while back as well that there was a suggestion of taxing savings
Blame the government, blame the banks, blah blah blah, they shouldn't have encouraged us, they shouldn't have given us the money........grow a pair of balls, take responsibility for your f**k up.
Or would you prefer we be a 'nanny state' and have the government take care of everything for us????

100 euro left over a week. Where you living at home with mammy?

AlekSmart · 13-09-2011 07:46AM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

You may not wish to be rude - but you are certainly being very patronising.

I do not need anyone to tell me what to think. I can think for myself thank you.

And the Constitution is quite clear - we are all entitled to our rights - as citizens we are equal under the law and entitled to the protection of the State. Its why we are called 'citizens'. See- I can be patronising too

Now tell me about this chewing job - I still have most of my own teeth - best get use out of them before they are all extracted for the crime of having cavities while reliant on the medical health card.

Well,manfully resisting the urge to patronize also,there is always the option of taking a Constitutional Case to the Higher Courts ?

With your undoubtedly relevant battery of Academic qualifications and your equally obvious belief in your case,I would suggest all you need is a good Constitutional Lawyer to formulate a test-case.

If things are as bad as they seem,then perhaps some pro-active,pre-emptive Legal strike might garner broad support ?

Monty Burnz · 13-09-2011 07:49AM

Crazy Horse 6 wrote: »

100 euro left over a week. Where you living at home with mammy?

That would be the smart thing to do. I'm not sure if it merits your contempt.

doomed · 13-09-2011 09:33AM

HellFireClub wrote: »

Just think about this for a minute... If you are Managing Director of a private company at the present time, (if you own or part own the business), you have to basically risk your home in order to get an overdraft, because the banks will not give you an overdraft now without it being fully secured. If you are MD of your own company at the moment, you have to put the security of yourself, your wife and your kids, on the line in order for you to just survive in business. This might not be the case for every business but I personally know lads who cannot sleep at night with the responsibilities that they are carrying, as their businesses find it more difficult to get paid, more difficult to find work, etc. These lads are paying themselves 35k a year for the privilege of working for themselves, and for the privilege of putting their family homes on the line in order to get to see January.

Now meanwhile, back on the ranch that is the Irish Public Service parallel universe, we have middle and higher ranking "managers", who never have to take an actual risk or make a difficult decision in their entire careers, earning 80k, 100k, 250k, 400k, etc???

There is something completely wrong with all of this. Seriously, why does a manager who is insulated from any personal financial risk whatsoever in terms of their business management role, need to be paid insanely high sums such as 60k or 80k a year???

Don't tell me there is no more low hanging fruit. It's all there in front of your eyes, it's just been placed out of bounds by the most bizarre and frustrating agreement ever, the Croke Park Agreement.

My suggestion is that those within the PS on the VERY front line, on 45K or under, leave them alone. Anyone else who is the business of bean counting and implementing union dicktats within the public service, these people should be taken out of the remit of the Croke Park Agreement and where they are on a salary that exceeds 45K, it should be defaulted back down to 45k, whether it is 80k, 120k or whatever.

It is a nonsense to say that there are MD's of small companies out there paying themselves 100K and the likes, the lads I know who are running their own businesses are paying themselves 35k a year IF THEY ARE LUCKY and they have been put into a position by their bank where in order to try to ride out this recession, their houses are on the line in order to capitalise their businesses, and these are not businesses that are carrying any excess fat, these are businesses that have been cut down to the bare bone in terms of overheads, salary costs, rent, etc...

Its an interesting point. There is often a fairly lazy distinction made between the public and private sector and the argument is framed in completely the wrong terms.

Some people hold the view that everyone in the prvate sector is creating wealth and everyone in the public sector is consuming it. That is obviously nonsense. The two sectors are completely interdependent.

Just as you cannot run any size of individual company without support staff in HR, payroll, accounts maintenance etc. business cannot operate in an environment where there are no roads, schools, courts or public safety let alone the regulatory environent that aims to provide fair competition.

A more interesting distinction is between those who risk their own funds and those who are employees. The vast majority of the work force are employees, working for either a public sector or private sector employer. Does it matter whose beans you are counting?

They chose which employer they want to work for based on their perception of which suits their needs best. These are economic choices like buying houses and in the long run some choices work out better than others. At the moment the public sector looks a safer bet.

If most people are employees selling their services to an employer at the market rate then the argument that you should cut all salaries above €45k in the public service to €45k is just as daft as the one that says that all income above €45k for anyone who is not risking their own funds in the venture should be taxed at say 80%.

The argument for public pay cuts need to be about ability to pay.

Godge · 13-09-2011 10:20AM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Does the same apply to barristers and MDs?

7 years of university (actually I have 2 primary degrees - and yes - I paid fees and worked) so 10 years of university leading to a specialisation and I should just like that my turn hand to something else?

What else did you have in mind?
Would thou likest fries with that good sire? Can I interest thee in supersizing?

I did that 30 years ago (and stacked shelves in Dunnes, worked on a bread round, picked spuds) - is that the best Ireland can offer me, and the many like me?

Most likely I will have to emigrate (again!) and my taxes will go to another exchequer.

It certainly applies to anyone for whom there is no work in their chosen profession. Nobody owes anyone a job. Do you remember "Ask not what your country can do for you......."

As for me, I have a degree and two masters and have spent most of my working life working outside my specialities. If your long years at university did not educate you for life and for business, there was something wrong with them, third-level education is not just about educating people for a profession, it is about giving them a wide range of skills and training to make them adaptable and open to change.

When I hear so many of our third-level graduates bemoaning where is our job and I think back to the eighties when those of us who stayed in Ireland had to find a job wherever we could or start our own small business. The idea that third-level graduates are waiting for the best that Ireland can offer them and are so comfortable on the dole that they will turn down a job in McDonalds says it all about this country. I must say that your reference to supersize fries and turning your nose up at it is an insult to a number of young graduates of my acquaintance who are working in low-paid jobs just to get some experience.

Your attitude is symptomatic of the Celtic Tiger era of entitlement. Just like Seanie Fitzpatrick thought he was entitled to be bailed out by the state and Bertie thought he deserved his trips to see Manchester United, you think you are entitled to a job in which you have trained, the same attitude of "I want therefore I am entitled", just at a different level.

View · 13-09-2011 11:05AM

Rubik. wrote: »

Yet another - shock, horror we have a social welfare bill of 20 billion thread. Ireland spends less as a percentage of gross national income on social welfare than all but 2 EU countries.

That is a bit of an irrelevancy. The starting point when drawing up a budget is "How much do I have to spend?" not "How much will I spend to ensure that I have what I feel that I should be entitled to?"

Permabear · 13-09-2011 11:09AM

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Permabear · 13-09-2011 11:16AM

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Bannasidhe · 13-09-2011 12:49PM

The reality is that no matter what all of us keyboard political theorists and economists say - or indeed German ex-bankers.

The FF/L government is going to continue on its present course of slash - even if in some cases it means the services are burnt.

They will claim their hands are tied by the Croke Park Agreement when it comes to actually tackling the huge wastage in the public sector - yet, despite assuring us that front-line staffing would not be effected, that is precisely what is happening and will continue to happen.

It will be wary of political 'hot potatoes' like 3rd level fees and cuts to OAPs - the former is likely to be disguised as ever increasing 'registration' fees while the latter will be avoided unless there is nothing left.

Those on the upper echelons who are paid from public coffers (and I am including semi-state bodies) will continue to be protected 'due to contractual reasons'.

Small indigenous businesses will continue to find it near impossible to get a line of credit from banks.

First-time buyers will continue to face difficulty in securing mortgages.

NAMA will continue to cut deals with developers which allow many to retain their Celtic Tiger lifestyles (it's not my money -it's the wife's money).

Our education standards will continue to fall.

Our hospitals will continue to implode.

Our roads will continue to crumble.

Ghost estates across the country will be our legacy - Visit Ireland - See the abandoned ruins of 4 bed semi's with en-suites that dot the countryside.

This is the opportunity for a massive overhaul of the administration of the State - to streamline it, to cut out the duplication and dead wood, to bring in a more realistic pay structure and in introduce a genuine level of accountability and transparency.

This is the opportunity to introduce real regulation of the financial sector.

This is the time when the State must demonstrate that all those who commit fraud will be punished - not just the dole scroungers but the Dail spongers too.

This is the time to reform our political system - to move away from Civil War Politics, clientism and cronyism and all our other 'isms'.

In short - it's time we became a functioning modern, European democracy not a post-Colonial potato republic.

That is about as likely to happen as Finger's giving the million and the watch back.

My concern, as I have said all along, is the damage to the fabric of our society being done by current government policies. While we focus on the economy and bicker amongst ourselves, real long-term damage is being done - not including the growing realisation even among the politically did-interested that we are 'governed' by an unaccountable elite who have insulated themselves from the repercussions of their actions.

Now - where were we....
Ah yes - this is the employed advocating unspecified cuts to SW and Norman Tebbit 'on yer bike' advice to its unfortunate recipients thread

fliball123 · 13-09-2011 12:57PM

ChRoMe wrote: »

Start transferring part of their wealth and distribute it to the rest of society.

So Communism is alive and well Stalin and Marx are laughing in their graves

wolfpawnat · 13-09-2011 01:07PM

FÁS is a joke I am on a list for a course for over a year, I am begging them to get me anything, I will do anything from a ECDL course to a secretarial course.

Part of me thinks we should just cut everything in the one budget, get all the taxes that need to be raised done in the one budget and just get it over with. The only thing is they should also put legislation in place to ensure that the cost of living would also go down at the same time. So put SW at say €150, but also put milk down to €1 for the Tesco brand one. I am sick of spending the last few weeks worrying about what is yet to come!

Permabear · 13-09-2011 01:07PM

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fliball123 · 13-09-2011 01:10PM

Monty Burnz wrote: »

This is a long post, so please forgive me if I only address a few of your points.

I think the PS salaries thing is indeed a much bigger issue than SW. And it's not just the people at the top who are making a killing.

The problem with this is that a lot of wealthy people would immediately up sticks give up their citizenship. US citizenship is treasured for practical reasons. Irish citizenship is just a point of pride, at best. Any other EU citizenship is just as useful and may confer other benefits. For example you pay no CGT in Portugal or Belgium as I understand it, which would be very advantageous to those with a lot of assets. And once they are gone, you can say good buy to whatever tax they did pay, plus their spending power, plus whatever they might invest in Irish business.

The 30s was just a date I picked out of the air. Think middle class in the UK a hundred years ago. Or in the US a hundred years ago, or whatever. The point is that the 'poor' in Ireland today have access to travel, knowledge, education, healthcare and all sorts of things at levels undreamed of by the middle class in the past. They are 'poor' only in relative terms, and we will always have relative poor.

Yup, classic Fianna Failure mismanagement and vote buying. They did it in the 70s and ruined us for the 80s. They did it in the 2000s and ruined us for god knows how long. And they will do it again when the Irish electorate, with characteristic amnesia, votes them back in again in the future. And the public will be surprised all over again the next time they ruin us.

The tax rises and cuts have not primarily targeted the unemployed and the pensioners - they've got off almost totally untouched. It's the people in the middle who have borne the overwhelming brunt of the crash.

I disagree. They are dragging down the middle so that we have a class of working poor families who have less than the career dolers, only they work 40 hours a week for the privilege.

Yup, more mismanagement.

The UNCTD report does not apply to us. I don't know to what extent to bore you with economic details here, but let me just say that their arguments for deficit spending do not apply to countries that are already bankrupt - they apply to countries that still have scope to borrow. Of course, that's if you assume that they are correct in the first place, and many disagree.

We are entering conspiracy theory territory here.

no question of favouring Johnny over Mary in our system - we massively favour the unemployed, the pensioners and those unable to work by confiscating wealth from those who produce it and giving it to them. It's pretty clear which way the favouritism works.

It's more like a situation where Johnny has a job and Mary doesn't (for whatever reason), and every day when Johnny comes home with a tenner, Dad takes four quid off him to give to Mary. Due to tax rises etc., Johnny comes home and says, "Dad, I only got paid 8 euro today," and Dad still takes 4 euro from Johnny to give to Mary, instead of cutting a euro from Mary's cut so that Johnny still sees a bit of a difference between working and not working.

Couldnt have summed it up better or more simply than your Mary and Johnny analogy...and a point not touched on here thus far is that people turning down jobs as they are better off on the scratch...This should of been somewhere in the debate by now...

13-09-2011 01:14PM

Permabear wrote: »

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Shock and horror a Labour minister and a german economist have different views on how exactly we should treat Irish people. :rolleyes:

Permabear · 13-09-2011 01:15PM

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fliball123 · 13-09-2011 01:15PM

Monty Burnz wrote: »

So if someone is on the dole and they spend money on anything other than shelter and food, you think they are a sponger?

No but you have to look at it from a tax payers point of view we are being squeezed to fcuk with paying more and more tax and yet we see people on the dole being able to afford thing such as holidays...why should tax payers be paying for some people who are claiming social welfare so they can go on holiday..Regardless of if they saved for months and months..obviously they are overpaid by at least the amount they are saving

wolfpawnat · 13-09-2011 01:20PM

Permabear wrote: »

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I was not told this!!!!!!! This would be perfect, save them on creché costs for my child and I get to show I am not just dossing around doing nothing and can get some sort of experience!!!! Is it on their wedbsite???

Permabear wrote: »

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Only so that they could reduce the cost of living in general meaning that all cuts and tax hikes could occur at once and not slaughter us over a few years and then we can then (hopefully) get somewhere near back on track!

I know it is a bit mad but you cannot reduce the SW, Min wage and tax those earning more and not make the cost of living cheaper.

I do believe though landlords should be forced to slash their rents because RA is gone completely mad!

Permabear · 13-09-2011 01:22PM

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wolfpawnat · 13-09-2011 01:23PM

fliball123 wrote: »

No but you have to look at it from a tax payers point of view we are being squeezed to fcuk with paying more and more tax and yet we see people on the dole being able to afford thing such as holidays...why should tax payers be paying for some people who are claiming social welfare so they can go on holiday..Regardless of if they saved for months and months..obviously they are overpaid by at least the amount they are saving

Don't worry fliball, not everyone is going on holiday, the furthest I have been in years is to my family's for a few days!;)

A few Euros here and there for saving is not actually a bad thing. I try to save about a €5 every fortnight so I can hopefully deal with xmas and when my son starts school and will then not have to get the Back to School Allowance! Doesn't often happen though as usually I have to take it out to pay for healthcare or if he needs new shoes

Permabear · 13-09-2011 01:24PM

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Jürgen Stark: Abandon the Croke Park Agreement, cut welfare

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