Jürgen Stark: Abandon the Croke Park Agreement, cut welfare

Permabear

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ChRoMe

Permabear wrote: »

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Yes lets destroy the lives of some of our most vulnerable citizens for the benefit of the market, great idea....

wolfpawnat

ChRoMe wrote: »

Yes lets destroy the lives of some of our most vulnerable citizens for the benefit of the market, great idea....

You forgot to mention lets cripple our vulnerable so we can pay banks back for idiotic lending and now they will not give families the loan of money for xmas and for back to school meaning they are going to lending firms instead which are often very harsh.

Of course a Banker in the ECB would say that, he is a money hungry a-hole only interested in what he can do for himself and his own, I would LOVE to see him live on €188 a week!!!!

ChRoMe

wolfpawnat wrote: »

You forgot to mention lets cripple our vulnerable so we can pay banks back for idiotic lending and now they will not give families the loan of money for xmas and for back to school meaning they are going to lending firms instead which are often very harsh.

Of course a Banker in the ECB would say that, he is a money hungry a-hole only interested in what he can do for himself and his own, I would LOVE to see him live on €188 a week!!!!

Yeah there is a lot of "I'm alright so **** you" going around at the moment. Very easy for comfortable middle/upper class to pontificate on what savage cuts to be taken when they will not affect them.

Alright chrome, what's your idea then? Where is all the money going to come from to pay our highest-wages&benefits-in-europe rates?

wiseguy

Did anyone tell Jürgen Stark (winter is coming? :P) about our recent mortgage forgiveness ruckus

Yes lets destroy the lives of some of our most vulnerable citizens for the benefit of the market, great idea....

Yet its ok to hurt the "vulnerable" by:

• Cutting welfare to maintain high public sector wages and pensions?
• Or bailing out banks?
• Or helping reckless borrowers who piled on debt like no tomorrow??

ChRoMe

bluewolf wrote: »

Alright chrome, what's your idea then? Where is all the money going to come from to pay our highest-wages&benefits-in-europe rates?

Lets start looking at the wealthy of society rather than then the poor for a start.

Stuff like the bonuses being awarded to people in state owned banks, the payouts to politicians, the tax breaks being given to the already wealthy etc etc. If the state was willing to make decisions based on fairness rather than political points with the elite, we wouldn't have such a problem.

wolfpawnat

Permabear wrote: »

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The cost of living here is actually higher than 2007. Gas and Electricity have gone higher, food is more expensive, etc. Food in England is cheaper than here so of course they can have cheaper welfare rates and wages.

Make my weekly shop cheaper and the cost of my electricity and heating lower and I will gladly take a significant cut to my SW! The government have decided to allowed a 20% mark up in prices so they have to accept that people will need more money to pay them!!!

wiseguy

wolfpawnat wrote: »

The cost of living here is actually higher than 2007. Gas and Electricity have gone higher, food is more expensive, etc. Food in England is cheaper than here so of course they can have cheaper welfare rates and wages.

Make my weekly shop cheaper and the cost of my electricity and heating lower and I will gladly take a significant cut to my SW! The government have decided to allowed a 20% mark up in prices so they have to accept that people will need more money to pay them!!!

Have you considered for a minute that things could be expensive here because welfare is setting an artificial high floor under everything? A form of price/wage spiral inflation

The same UK that you mentioned has a much lower welfare than here, just cross the border and ask our neighbors

ChRoMe

wiseguy wrote: »

Have you considered for a minute that things could be expensive here because welfare is setting an artificial high floor under everything?

The same UK that you mentioned has a much lower welfare than here, just cross the border and ask our neighbors

Jesus christ really? you are attributing inflation to the level of social welfare payments....

BTW I live in London and the social welfare here is far better than whats in Ireland, you are not comparing like with like.

wolfpawnat

ChRoMe wrote: »

Lets start looking at the wealthy of society rather than then the poor for a start.

Stuff like the bonuses being awarded to people in state owned banks, the payouts to politicians, the tax breaks being given to the already wealthy etc etc. If the state was willing to make decisions based on fairness rather than political points with the elite, we wouldn't have such a problem.

My ideas to save moola (FG/Labour feel free to use any of these in the Budget:D)

- No expenses for politicans, they are well enough paid, they don't need that too.
- No Child Benefit for households earning over €150,000 a year after tax.
- Stomp out ALL welfare fraud.
- 1% tax on people with assets over €2 million.
- All state, and semi-state body Board of Directors, CEO's, etc must take an immediate cut to their salaries, no one should be earning over €100,000 a year post tax!
- Rather than debt forgiveness, realistic talks between banks and people, if a person can only afford to pay back €100 a month, they that's all they can afford.

I am a genius I know, but I am too honest for Leinster House so I'd never get in!!!!!:D;)

wiseguy

ChRoMe wrote: »

Jesus christ really? you are attributing inflation to the level of social welfare payments....

Erm yes the two are very much related, remove rent supplement and watch rent prices plummet for example

ChRoMe wrote: »

BTW I live in London and the social welfare here is far better than whats in Ireland, you are not comparing like with like.

Really some figures so would be interesting to see..

ChRoMe

wolfpawnat wrote: »

My ideas to save moola (FG/Labour feel free to use any of these in the Budget:D)

- No expenses for politicans, they are well enough paid, they don't need that too.
- No Child Benefit for households earning over €150,000 a year after tax.
- Stomp out ALL welfare fraud.
- 1% tax on people with assets over €2 million.
- All state, and semi-state body Board of Directors, CEO's, etc must take an immediate cut to their salaries, no one should be earning over €100,000 a year post tax!
- Rather than debt forgiveness, realistic talks between banks and people, if a person can only afford to pay back €100 a month, they that's all they can afford.

I am a genius I know, but I am too honest for Leinster House so I'd never get in!!!!!:D;)

You are on the right track mate

wolfpawnat

wiseguy wrote: »

Have you considered for a minute that things could be expensive here because welfare is setting an artificial high floor under everything? A form of price/wage spiral inflation

The same UK that you mentioned has a much lower welfare than here, just cross the border and ask our neighbors

So what do you suggest, the gas and electricity price rises are coming into effect in the next few weeks. If we cut welfare people will have no heating this winter, and they will have no electricity because they will be behind in their payments. So they will freeze while waiting for a elitist government to reduce the price of living.

Tell you what, hold your breathe for that one, I'll attend your funeral

ChRoMe

wiseguy wrote: »

Erm yes the two are very much related, remove rent supplement and watch rent prices plummet for example




Really some figures so would be interesting to see..

Rent plummet LOL, you are hysterical, thanks I needed a giggle on monday morning.

You are capable of using boards so I presume you know how to use google?

What should be done is a social housing setup like the UK, which over time would remove the requirement for rent supplement and overall save the government money.

wolfpawnat

ChRoMe wrote: »

Jesus christ really? you are attributing inflation to the level of social welfare payments....

Yes, they are also the reason the cockroaches will survive the end of the world and why water flows in different directions in toilets on the two sides of the equator

Forgetting of course that inflation is the main decider in the rates of SW, not the other way round, but there is no room for logic in some peoples lives!

Monty Burnz

ChRoMe wrote: »

Yes lets destroy the lives of some of our most vulnerable citizens for the benefit of the market, great idea....

Why bother discussing things when you can throw out mindless cliches?

ChRoMe

wolfpawnat wrote: »

Yes, they are also the reason the cockroaches will survive the end of the world and why water flows in different directions in toilets on the two sides of the equator

Forgetting of course that inflation is the main decider in the rates of SW, not the other way round, but there is no room for logic in some peoples lives!

"I've made up my mind dont confuse me with facts"

Diarmuid

wolfpawnat wrote: »

I am a genius I know, but I am too honest for Leinster House so I'd never get in!!!!!:D;)

How much is that going to raise?

wiseguy

ChRoMe wrote: »

"I've made up my mind dont confuse me with facts"

What facts would those be or would you go tell me to use google again breaking the politics forums guidelines with your postings over and over?

ChRoMe

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Why bother discussing things when you can throw out mindless cliches?

ITs not a mindless cliche its a very serious point and it ****ing scares me the blatant disregard many people in Ireland have for the welfare of the poor in society.

wolfpawnat

Diarmuid wrote: »

How much is that going to raise?

I'll take a ministerial position for national industrial wage with no expenses, so I will save about €200,000 a year!

syklops

wolfpawnat wrote: »

The cost of living here is actually higher than 2007. Gas and Electricity have gone higher, food is more expensive, etc. Food in England is cheaper than here so of course they can have cheaper welfare rates and wages.

Make my weekly shop cheaper and the cost of my electricity and heating lower and I will gladly take a significant cut to my SW! The government have decided to allowed a 20% mark up in prices so they have to accept that people will need more money to pay them!!!

Dole in the UK is 65GBP or about 71 euros a week. In Ireland it is 196 euro. While the cost of living might be less than Ireland, it is definitely not a half of what Irelands is. So is the UK meaner to its people or is Ireland overly generous? Its obviously the latter.

Diarmuid

wolfpawnat wrote: »

I'll take a ministerial position for national industrial wage with no expenses, so I will save about €200,000 a year!

My mistake. I should have quoted your whole list. How much are all your proposals going to raise?

wiseguy

wolfpawnat wrote: »

I'll take a ministerial position for national industrial wage with no expenses, so I will save about €200,000 a year!

Thats

28,900,000,000
-
200,000

---

28,899,800,000 to go

great start :rolleyes:

ChRoMe

syklops wrote: »

Dole in the UK is 65GBP or about 71 euros a week. In Ireland it is 196 euro. While the cost of living might be less than Ireland, it is definitely not a half of what Irelands is. So is the UK meaner to its people or is Ireland overly generous? Its obviously the latter.

The dole part is only one aspect of an overall UK social welfare system. You are also eligible for a variety of other payments specific to your situation

Monty Burnz

wolfpawnat wrote: »

My ideas to save moola (FG/Labour feel free to use any of these in the Budget:D)

- No expenses for politicans, they are well enough paid, they don't need that too. This will save a few million.
- No Child Benefit for households earning over €150,000 a year after tax. This will also save a few tens of millions.
- Stomp out ALL welfare fraud. This will meet lots of opposition from people who 'aren't rats' :rolleyes: and will cost money to do. Hard to know how much can be saved net of costs - possibly half a billion, for argument's sake
- 1% tax on people with assets over €2 million. - tax on their assets? Or their income? Because I don't have €2 million or anything near it, but I'd move all my assets out of the state for sure if that happened (well, I already did).
- All state, and semi-state body Board of Directors, CEO's, etc must take an immediate cut to their salaries, no one should be earning over €100,000 a year post tax! That will save a few million alright.
- Rather than debt forgiveness, realistic talks between banks and people, if a person can only afford to pay back €100 a month, they that's all they can afford. This won't bring any savings as we don't have debt sharing now.

I am a genius I know, but I am too honest for Leinster House so I'd never get in!!!!!:D;)

I don't disagree with any of your ideas (except taxing wealth - that will just drive wealth out of the country overnight). But if you add up all your savings, they still only come to under a billion in my guesstimate. We still need to find another 10 billion or 15 billion.

ChRoMe

I'm actually going to step out of this thread, as it appears that with the prevailing attitudes here, you all deserve the mess you are in.

You would make the right wing conservatives in the UK blush.

Monty Burnz

ChRoMe wrote: »

I'm actually going to step out of this thread, as it appears that with the prevailing attitudes here, you all deserve the mess you are in.

You would make the right wing conservatives in the UK blush.

I know, it's so hard to actually make a coherent argument when you don't have a clue what you are talking about. Best not to bother.

sarumite

ChRoMe wrote: »

BTW I live in London and the social welfare here is far better than whats in Ireland, you are not comparing like with like.

Ah, now..anyone who works in the UK knows of the "london allowance". I worked for the HPA (part of the NHS) in the southwest of England. The exact same position in London had a £5k a year 'london allowance' and even that wouldn't cover the difference in cost of living. Now you are guilty of not comparing like with like.

Godge

wolfpawnat wrote: »

My ideas to save moola (FG/Labour feel free to use any of these in the Budget:D)

- No expenses for politicans, they are well enough paid, they don't need that too. Will save maybe €10m per year?
- No Child Benefit for households earning over €150,000 a year after tax.
- Stomp out ALL welfare fraud. So gross earnings would have to be over €250,000. How many people earning that much have children? very few, or kids have grown up, maybe save another €5m
- 1% tax on people with assets over €2 million. Are you taxing family homes? Is the % tax based on the asset value, so an old couple with a large home, a decent pension fund and some savings, would they have to pay it? Anyone with that amount of liquid assets would move it abroad, giving us a run on the banks, well done, just what we need. You can only tax property, something I would welcome, so agree that a proper property tax including the family home would raise €1 bn, if a fantasy tax on assets over €2m would be lucky to raise €2m
- All state, and semi-state body Board of Directors, CEO's, etc must take an immediate cut to their salaries, no one should be earning over €100,000 a year post tax! Little effect, there is not that many of them anyway (unless you include professors and consultants). Many will retire so the cost of pension plus replacement would cost more. The professors and consultants are in international demand so would move abroad reducing the quality of our health service and higher education. Saves no money at all.
- Rather than debt forgiveness, realistic talks between banks and people, if a person can only afford to pay back €100 a month, they that's all they can afford. Net cost to the taxpayer as everyone with a mortgage says they can only pay €100 per month is estimated at €20-30 bn.

I am a genius I know, but I am too honest for Leinster House so I'd never get in!!!!!:D;)

So even if your assets tax works you end up increasing the budget deficit.

Brilliant, just what we need.

Permabear

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Armin_Tamzarian

ChRoMe wrote: »

BTW I live in London and the social welfare here is far better than whats in Ireland, you are not comparing like with like.

Get real.
The last time I checked, basic dole for a single male in the UK was just under £70.00, which is less than half of what the same person would get if they claimed in Ireland.
Cost of living in Ireland may be high but the dole here is way too much and needs to be reduced.

wolfpawnat wrote: »

My ideas to save moola (FG/Labour feel free to use any of these in the Budget:D)

- No expenses for politicans, they are well enough paid, they don't need that too.
- No Child Benefit for households earning over €150,000 a year after tax.
- Stomp out ALL welfare fraud.
- 1% tax on people with assets over €2 million.
- All state, and semi-state body Board of Directors, CEO's, etc must take an immediate cut to their salaries, no one should be earning over €100,000 a year post tax!
- Rather than debt forgiveness, realistic talks between banks and people, if a person can only afford to pay back €100 a month, they that's all they can afford.

I am a genius I know, but I am too honest for Leinster House so I'd never get in!!!!!:D;)

Most of your points are fair enough except for these two.

- Stomp out ALL welfare fraud. - IMPOSSIBLE, well unless we just cut out SW altogether.

- 1% tax on people with assets over €2 million.
Why?
There's enough tax on income and expenditure not to mind taxing what people have acquired with their post-tax earnings.
Having a house / land worth 2million doesn't necessarily mean you can afford to pay +20k per annum in tax.
Then what? Force people to dispose of assests because they can't afford to pay?

Permabear

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doomed

Since it has been determined by the people abroad who run Ireland that we need to cut our way out of a recession then it is better to front load the pain and take a really big bite. It will hurt like hell but if people felt that things would settle down afterwards and everyone shared the pain they might just go for it. There are still plenty of options.

Public Sector pay - yes but confine the cuts to higher paid people. Some of those at the lower levels would be better off on the dole already and it must be really offensive to have pundits who are paid a large multiple of their wages calling for further reductions instead of tax increases for themselves.

Social welfare - yes. It is the elephant in the room and the levels have grown to an unsustainable level. BTW Why do we give child benefit to wealthy families?

Pension subsidies. Why on earth in a recession are we spending billions to encourage people to save money? It would make much more sense to say that for the next 5 years this tax hand out is eliminated.

Retrain surplus public servants as tax inspectors so everyone gets an audit. Jail for for tax evasion. Its theft. If it was good enough for
Al Capone it is good enough for some of Ireland's "respectable people".

End Free universtity fees. Replace it with a system of grants that take into account not only family income but assets. Since assets can be converted into income through sale and annuity they are potentially measureable.

A real wealth tax on income above a certain high level. Those rats who leave the country to avoid paying their share can go.

A higher rate of income tax above €150k. The argument that this will stifle economnic activity has never been a strong one but is convenient. Bear in mind that a lot of those who earn highest are not actually entrepreneurs but employees or self employed professionals.

The point is we are either all in this together or we are not.

Diarmuid

doomed wrote: »

Those rats who leave the country to avoid paying their share can go.

With attitudes like this, it's no wonder this country is in a mess.

Tabnabs

Permabear wrote: »

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But isn't that the elephant in the room? We can slash and burn state welfare and genuinely see people go short for food, heat and light, but those being paid by the state won't see anything like the cuts necessary to put a real dent in the deficit. And I don't mean the librarians, guys cleaning streets, and other low paid positions, it's the €100k plus group who can't justify their wages other than "they have a contract".

20Cent

Why is anyone still even listening to the ECB. They are mostly responsible for the crisis and have made it much worse and messed up every attempt of a solution. Not to mention they are forcing countries to pay private debt. All they care about is their banks getting paid not employment or whatever devastation is wrecked on Irish society.

Another report was released this week Gene Kerrigan wrote a piece about it in the Sindo it was not widely reported at all. The United Nations Conference on trade and development.
http://www.unctad.org/en/docs/tdr2011overview_embargo_en.pdf
It says pretty much the opposite of what Stark says:

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/gene-kerrigan/gene-kerrigan-hooray-were-back-on-track-again-2873035.html

The lead author of the report, Henier Flassbeck, a German professor of economics, said: "If governments stick to the policy of not only keeping fiscal deficits where they are but retrenching, cutting public expenditure, then we will end up in permanent recession."

A definition of insanity is to keep doing the same thing expecting a different result. The "austerity" cult members want us all living on slave wages with no social services so that every gambler gets their pound of flesh. Time to reverse the bank guarantee and let some of them contribute.
Want to know what the problem is look at Bondwatch: Next year the Government will load us with another €20bn in debt to pay off the gamblers. And by 2015 we'll generously pay a further €60bn of other people's gambling debts. And, no doubt, the EU (if it still exists) will pat us on the head again.

Permabear

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sarumite

20Cent wrote: »

Why is anyone still even listening to the ECB. They are mostly responsible for the crisis and have made it much worse and messed up every attempt of a solution. Not to mention they are forcing countries to pay private debt. All they care about is their banks getting paid not employment or whatever devastation is wrecked on Irish society.

I didn't see any references or sources, so I can only assume the above is an opinion.

A definition of insanity is to keep doing the same thing expecting a different result. The "austerity" cult members want us all living on slave wages with no social services so that every gambler gets their pound of flesh. Time to reverse the bank guarantee and let some of them contribute.

Even if we do as you say, we are still left with a deficit. We can't borrow money from the markets which means even tighter austerity. (for the record Ireland is far from "slave" wages even after several harsh budgets, using such emotive language really reduces the impact of your argument)

Permabear

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20Cent

Permabear wrote: »

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Note the words, "want us" which you failed to include in your quote.

sarumite

20Cent wrote: »

Note the words, "want us" which you failed to include in your quote.

Maybe s/he was doing your argument a favour by removing it. The argument that people who support a balancing of the states budget ("austerity cult members") are only doing so, so that they can see wages reduced to susbsitance level is asinine.

Godge

Permabear wrote: »

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I can see what you mean about middle-classs public sector workers but from my experience of friends and neighbours, there are a lot of 50k public sector workers who having to pay for housing, doctors, medicine, dentists, college fees, school books and uniforms, extra tax, pension levy etc who did not get a holiday abroad this year while many social welfare recipients, thanks to rent allowance, mortgage help, back to school allowance, college grants, medical card etc, which are in addtion to their social welfare did manage to go on holiday.

How can you have a situation where it is easier for someone on social welfare to go abroad for a week or two than someone who is working to put food on the table? Even accepting that public sector workers and others are overpaid, their standard of living is not signficantly greater than those on social welfare and (if they have sick kids at school or college) in many cases is below those on social welfare.

I do share the belief that many (but not all) public servants are overpaid, the bigger problem is social welfare. While public servants might be 10-20% better off than their European counterparts, social welfare recipients are 100% upwards better off.

Godge

Tabnabs wrote: »

But isn't that the elephant in the room? We can slash and burn state welfare and genuinely see people go short for food, heat and light, but those being paid by the state won't see anything like the cuts necessary to put a real dent in the deficit. And I don't mean the librarians, guys cleaning streets, and other low paid positions, it's the €100k plus group who can't justify their wages other than "they have a contract".

I know 10-12 households on social welfare and they are far from going short on food, heat and light.

In fact, about 7-8 of those households had holidays abroad this year so if they are short on food, heat and light, it was nothing to do with the social welfare rate.

Monty Burnz

20Cent wrote: »

The "austerity" cult members want us all living on slave wages with no social services so that every gambler gets their pound of flesh. Time to reverse the bank guarantee and let some of them contribute.
Want to know what the problem is look at Bondwatch: Next year the Government will load us with another €20bn in debt to pay off the gamblers. And by 2015 we'll generously pay a further €60bn of other people's gambling debts. And, no doubt, the EU (if it still exists) will pat us on the head again.

Fantasy. We are running a huge current account deficit even without the huge Fianna Failure bank costs. Where are we supposed to magic up this money from exactly? :rolleyes:

Bannasidhe

Or we could learn the lessons of history and see what actually worked the last time there was a massive global recession - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Deal

The New Deal was a series of economic programs implemented in the United States between 1933 and 1936. They were passed by the U.S. Congress during the first term of President Franklin D. Roosevelt. The programs were responses to the Great Depression, and focused on what historians call the "3 Rs": Relief, Recovery, and Reform. That is, Relief for the unemployed and poor; Recovery of the economy to normal levels; and Reform of the financial system to prevent a repeat depression.

But sure we all know FDR was a well know leftie...oh hang on. No he wasn't.

We have around 1/2 million adults dependent on SW in this country - most of them as a direct result of the financial melt-down caused by government mis-management of the economy, little or no regulation of the financial sector and unsustainable speculation on property.

These are 1/2 a million people who do not have a disposable cent as it is but are about to be hit by fuel charges imposed by utility companies who can squander 900 per chair and pay senior staff outrageous salaries.

These are 1/2 a million people who are struggling to eat never mind keep a roof over their heads - and if they have dependent children must find thousands of euro a year to fund our so-called free education but are being told by the overpaid mandarins in Leinster House (elected and unelected) that we are all in this together and must all take a hit. A 15% cut in 10,000 P.A is a Vastly different proposition to a 10% cut from 100,000 a year. And this from people who can claim expenses just for showing up at their place of work.

But lets all buy Irish, lets get the retail sector going, lets cut VAT in the hospitality sector, lets have 2 years scrappage scheme to aid the Japanese, French, Germany motor industries.

1/2 a million people in this country have no choice in what they buy - they buy the cheapest they can get. They cannot afford to eat out. They cannot afford to put petrol in the car.

Every week there is another example of how those who were tasked with running the state are still riding the gravy train into a plush and comfortable retirement, while those who gambled on property developement can still get salaries of up to 200,000 a year from our money.

Latest one :

THE chairman of the state’s implementation body for health sector reform has received over €1 million in severance fees, non-tendered projects from former colleagues and other payouts since retiring from the health service.

Read more: http://www.examiner.ie/ireland/hse-reformer-receives-1m-since-retiring-167207.html#ixzz1Xjnnl2Ay

But hey - the country is broke so lets hit those who already have nothing. Let's ignore the UNCTD Report on why austerity measures are a very bad idea. Let's ignore the lessons of history which show that investment in employment, regualtion of financial sector, accountability and protection of the vulnurable actually work to kick start an economy.

Lets all heed the advise of a banker having a hissy fit instead...

I should say I have no problem with either Child benefit or Old Age Pension being means tested - in fact, I think they should be. My own mother has a medical Health Card while also having full private insurance - she has never even claimed the card as simply doesn't need it. I know people who put the Child benefit straight into a saving account and others who need it to pay utility bills so their children can be kept warm.

Irish society is deeply divided and historically the vulnerable have been not only left unprotected by the institutions of the state - but often specifically targeted while an elite gorge themselves at the trough of public monies. At least when it was the Anglo-Irish Ascendancy we could all 'blame' Britain - WHO DO WE BLAME NOW?

wolfpawnat

syklops wrote: »

Dole in the UK is 65GBP or about 71 euros a week. In Ireland it is 196 euro.

Dole is actually €188, and will no doubt be decreased more in the next budget. Not too much of a difference, but it makes your argument void if you cannot quote facts.

Diarmuid wrote: »

My mistake. I should have quoted your whole list. How much are all your proposals going to raise?

About a billion, not enough I know, but a good start.

Also with all these austerity measures solely to pay Europe, where are we ever going to get money for job creation.

Obama is investing over $100 billion in job creation. Now I know we don't have that sort of money here, but it does need to be a 2 pronged approach. You cannot expect unemployed people to just die so we don't have to be a burden on the government, and the country cannot afford the 450,000 unemployed, so we need to get back to work and nothing is being done to do that

Monty Burnz

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Irish society is deeply divided and historically the vulnerable have been not only left unprotected by the institutions of the state - but often specifically targeted while an elite gorge themselves at the trough of public monies. At least when it was the Anglo-Irish Ascendancy we could all 'blame' Britain - WHO DO WE BLAME NOW?

I'm genuinely baffled by this attitude. Whatever about the past, in the present day someone who has never worked a day in their lives, has never bothered to go to school, and never intends to do anything useful at all in future can live a comfortable life with all their needs met. Not only their needs in fact - it seems that the entitlement culture has extended to luxuries like entertainment and sun holidays.

Can anyone remember what you'd have to be earning before tax to match the take-home (take home, as if they left it in the first place :rolleyes:) income of a guy on the dole with 3 kids?

There are genuinely vulnerable people who are still getting shafted - autistic children and adults, the mentally ill and so forth. But the unemployed and the pensioners are very, very well looked after in this country - in fact, the amount of money pensioners get is absolutely ridiculous.

Perhaps you could explain to us exactly where in the world you'd have to go as a pensioner or SW recipient to get better treatment than you do here, in our bankrupt little kleptocracy?

Debtocracy

If we could go back to living as a poor country with the debts of a poor country this would be fine. However, the current austerity programme involves going back to live as a poor country while retaining the debts of a rich country. Failure is certain - either we will continue to run bloated deficits or we will default.

COYW

Godge wrote: »

I do share the belief that many (but not all) public servants are overpaid, the bigger problem is social welfare. While public servants might be 10-20% better off than their European counterparts, social welfare recipients are 100% upwards better off.

I agree that SW is more of an issue that public sector salaries. The dole grew at 3 times the rate of inflation during the boom years and those on the dole have felt very little pain in terms of cuts, from my experiences. The dole is still proving to be a very viable career option for people, which is completely wrong.

I grew up in an area with a very high percentage of long term unemployed people and their lifestyles have not changed since the downturn. The lads my age, late 20s, still go to 1 or 2 premier league games per month and spend Friday and Saturday night out in the pub when they are around. I was speaking to another long term unemployed person on Saturday morning who was on her way to the doctor with her sore hand that she bumped the night before.