Jürgen Stark: Abandon the Croke Park Agreement, cut welfare

RedXIV wrote: »

Ah but here we have the crux of the matter. You're not willing to move back. Thats fair enough, your choice and all that but you can't complain about "no jobs anywhere?!!??!?" and then say "oh i meant within a reasonable commute to my current abode as otherwise it'd be a bit of hassle"

I wasnt speaking on my behalf just the near half million on the dole that obviously dont share the same view that there are jobs to be had.

sarumite wrote: »

It's possible to disagree with someones comments and not resort to insulting posts. I doubt you would say in real life some of the things you have said on this thread....well, at least I hope you wouldn't.

I'd never post anything that I would not say to your face. Pointing out someone's hypocrisy is not insulting them, however having their flaws demonstrated might have the same emotional effect to them. If I was insulting someone I'd call them a c|_|nt

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

There is a huge distance between not wanting to be rich and wanting to pay your basic bills.

sarumite wrote: »

I would rather you just called me that, than celebrate a post showing gleeful delight at the prospect of people losing their jobs and ending up on SW. For the record, you can dance your heart out as I am one of those on SW while agreeing with the broad principles of this thread.

Thats a syndrome commonly referred to as "temporarily embarrassed millionaires".

I'm not celebrating anyone losing their job, quite the opposite. In fact myself and a handful of other posters appear to be the only people here arguing on behalf of people on social welfare. All most posts have been centred around the desire for people on social welfare not to be attacked as is being suggested by the majority here.

Hello, I've read this post with fascination for the last hour, and while I see a modicum of sense in opinions from both sides being displayed on this thread, my opinion woud be that I, as a middle class earner who as a single man with no dependants, and who loses €1600 PM through taxes, can AFFORD to lose more money through higher taxation. I see no other option for the government.

But what I see as a fair thing to do, would be to take an average 3% off every earner, pensioner, and unemployed person in Ireland in the forthcoming budget. That would mean a loss of €5.60 PW for the unemployed, a loss of €8 PW for pensioners, a loss of around €100 PM for the middle earners, and high earners of €100,000 would lose a minimum of €200 PM.

But getting back to the 'No Jobs' scenario, I don't believe that for a second. one need only take a look at the different jobs websites online to see the variety of skilled, semi skilled and unskilled jobs that are available, if the people of Ireland wanted to do them.

The people of Ireland who are unemployed and who have no dependants and who are on the dole 'for the lifestye' which doesn't include the OP i might add, should have jobs offered to them (an example would be the FAS incentivised jobs, which get people back on the ladder working in an unskilled or semi skilled environment, while earning a nice wedge more than the dole) , which they must take or lose their benefits.

I earn a good wage as I kept at a job through thick and thin in the retail sector, although I had a decent degree in computing, and in time I was rewarded to a level which I can proudly call myself middle class. In the sector where I work, there is always positions for people who want to come in at the bottom and move up the ladder.

Its only an opinion.

You could do what the Americans do, tax them on world wide assets, no excape then, and no need to cause a bank run.

Monty Burnz wrote: »

I disagree. I think we created the poverty trap decades ago when we made 'doler' a viable career choice. Now we have generations of a doler underclass who know nothing about work, and think all their 'entitlements' come from the dole fairy.

Agree - But we also created an elite class who believe they are 'entitled' to 'earn' huge salaries paid from the public purse.

How should the wealthy be 'tackled'?

Close the tax loopholes. Stop bringing in short-sighted tax initiatives and schemes like the SSIA. Much of the building boom was fed by tax incentives aimed at developers - how many of those properties are in NAMA? All US citizens are liable for federal tax regardless of country of residence - why not all Irish citizens? Move your money abroad - but give up your citizenship.

Take the artist's exemption - great idea. I knows loads of artists who genuinely are struggling and need a tax break. But it's currently 40,000 year! 40,000 a year tax free! Why not 20,000? That's still twice the dole.

The divide between rich and poor is growing (if it's growing at all) only because the wealthy are getting wealthier faster than the poor are getting wealthy. Compare the lifestyle of someone on the dole with a middle-class person in the 1930s. What do you see?

- in the 1930s the country had come out of nearly two decades of war, was bankrupt, was servicing a debt to the UK until FF came to power, saw a flood of 'old' money transferred to the UK after independence and it was the height of the Great Depression. So for comparison purposes the 1930s don't really work. It also did not pay public servants of any level the kind of wages McCarthy was getting. Although maybe the seeds were sown then - didn't Dev say no man is worth more the £1,000 a year and proceed to pay himself £1,500.

What I did see during the Celtic Tiger was children being educated in portacabins, a health service already under severe pressure while millions were wasted on payrole systems, electronic voting machines and other wastes of money. Rather than make genuine improvements in our national services - government decided to award everyone in the country more money - with themselves and their advisors on exponentially more. Most of those responsible for this fiasco have escaped with no equatable financial burden being placed on them whatsoever.

And what is the alternative to the state paying back the debts that Fianna Failure left us?

We have no choice but to pay - however, the method of raising the funds at the moment is to primarily target those who have very little and those who are just managing while those those who have a lot cannot be touched due to 'contractual' reasons, or they will take there money elsewhere or for what ever other reason is trotted out.
ALL must share equally. We are not seeing that. We are seeing the existence of a protected elite. This wealthy elite simply did not exist in Ireland in the 1930s - or if it did - it was not publicly funded.

Current government policy - which is in effect no different from the previous government's policy is compounding the divide between the haves and the have-nots while creating an intermediate category of the haves-for-nows.

The State did not invest in the country when we thought we had money - instead government engaged in window dressing vanity projects and flinging money around like snuff at a wake. Already education and health care were creaking - top heavy with administrators and overpaid professors and consultants. Free fees for all undergrads while in real terms cutting university funding.

Current government policy is compounding those mistakes, while there is a growing 'Us Vs Them' tendency (the employed Vs the Unemployed, private Vs public sector) that is very worrying. Our society is starting to crumble - which is what the UNCTD report warns re:austerity measures) while we bicker amongst ourselves and those that caused this mess continue to be insulated from the repercussions.

While we argue amongst ourselves, who is watching those in control?

You'd think we'd have worked out about Divide and Conquer as a tactic by now...


We are a country - not an economy. Is your whole family life based around your income/expenditure or is there more to it? There is more to a society then the economy - there is quality of life for all citizens. There should also be the will of the government to ensure all citizens are treated equally - not show such blatant favouritism. Assuming you have kids - do you favour one over the others? If Johnny and Mary were caught slogging apples. Johnny's pocket money is stopped to pay for the apples but Mary gets to keep 90% of hers?

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

hope you feel better after you rant and hate to put a damper on you but you should read this
http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0912/ecb2-business.html

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

No - I WANT A JOB. I want to be allowed to pursue the profession I trained hard and long for. I cannot because our austerity measures include cutting the jobs of front-line staff in the public services - no matter what government says.

I am complaining at the portrayal of people like me as 'spongers' by some commentators here and the utter lack of compassion or understanding shown to those who despite having done the right thing - find themselves at the mercy of the SW system.

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Agree - But we also created an elite class who believe they are 'entitled' to 'earn' huge salaries paid from the public purse.





Close the tax loopholes. Stop bringing in short-sighted tax initiatives and schemes like the SSIA. Much of the building boom was fed by tax incentives aimed at developers - now many of those properties are in NAMA? All US citizens are liable for federal tax regardless of country of residence - why not all Irish citizens? Move your money abroad - but give up your citizenship.

Take the artist's exemption - great idea. I knows loads of artists who genuinely are struggling and need a tax break. But it's currently 40,000 year! 40,000 a year tax free! Why not 20,000? That's still twice the dole.



- in the 1930s the country had come out of nearly two decades of war, was bankrupt, was servicing a debt to the UK until FF came to power, saw a flood of 'old' money transferred to the UK after independence and it was the height of the Great Depression. So for comparison purposes the 1930s don't really work. It also did not pay public servants of any level the kind of wages McCarthy was getting. Although maybe the seeds were sown then - didn't Dev say no man is worth more the £1,000 a year and proceed to pay himself £1,500.

What I did see during the Celtic Tiger was children being educated in portacabins, a health service already under severe pressure while millions were wasted on payrole systems, electronic voting machines and other wastes of money. Rather than make genuine improvements in our national services - government decided to award everyone in the country more money - with themselves and their advisors on exponentially more. Most of those responsible for this fiasco have escaped with no equatable financial burden being placed on them whatsoever.



We have no choice but to pay - however, the method of raising the funds at the moment is to primarily target those who have very little and those who are just managing while those those who have a lot cannot be touched due to 'contractual' reasons, or they will take there money elsewhere or for what ever other reason is trotted out.
ALL must share equally. We are not seeing that. We are seeing the existence of a protected elite. This wealthy elite simply did not exist in Ireland in the 1930s - or if it did - it was not publicly funded.

Current government policy - which is in effect no different from the previous government's policy is compounding the divide between the haves and the have-nots while creating an intermediate category of the haves-for-nows.

The State did not invest in the country when we thought we had money - instead government engaged in window dressing vanity projects and flinging money around like snuff at a wake. Already education and health care were creaking - top heavy with administrators and overpaid professors and consultants. Free fees for all undergrads while in real terms cutting university funding.

Current government policy is compounding those mistakes, while there is a growing 'Us Vs Them' tendency (the employed Vs the Unemployed, private Vs public sector) that is very worrying. Our society is starting to crumble - which is what the UNCTD report warns re:austerity measures) while we bicker amongst ourselves and those that caused this mess continue to be insulated from the repercussions.

While we argue amongst ourselves, who is watching those in control?

You'd think we'd have worked out about Divide and Conquer as a tactic by now...


We are a country - not an economy. Is your whole family life based around your income/expenditure or is there more to it? There is more to a society then the economy - there is quality of life for all citizens. There should also be the will of the government to ensure all citizens are treated equally - not show such blatant favouritism. Assuming you have kids - do you favour one over the others? If it Johnny and Mary were caught slogging apples. Johnny's pocket money is stopped to pay for the apples but Mary's get's to keep 90% of hers?

My compliments on a very fine post.